Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

[DrfluffyMD]

I find it ironic when DO’s talk about the DO philosophy being more hollistic and treating the whole individual, many MD’s react by saying, “that’s ridiculous, we do the same exact thing! We are just as empathic and hollistic in the treatment of our patients as DO’s.” Many MD’s and DO’s go as far as to write off any difference in practiced philosophy. However, in the argument you just made, you state DO’s are made for primary care because they treat the whole patient and that kind of treatment is better designed for primary care. If MD’s treat their patients in the same philosophy as DO’s shouldn’t they too be perfect for primary care? Which one is it, do MD’s treat patients exactly the same as DO’s making MD’s and DO’s the same, or do DO’s treat their patient more empathetically and holistically than MD’s do?

Or maybe we’re getting at the meat of it here. MD’s and DO’s are the same. They are both equipped and capable enough to do anything from Primary care to superspecialization should they want to. I agree with @RamsFan&FutureDO that as future DO’s we should not be complacent with just taking Primary Care because we will be DO’s if that is not what we want to do. At the end of the day, MD’s and DO’s are the same, I think it’s about time we drop the notion that there is anything different between us besides OMM (which practically no DO’s practice anyway and MD’s will be able to learn in a crash course prior to certain residency programs).

Also, I have no problem with individuals not getting into certain residency programs due to their stats, but we are all well aware that many of the reasons why DO’s don’t get a fair shake is straight up discrimination. So you telling individuals to not complain about our situation because we chose to go to DO school is just telling us to not complain about being discriminated against. Not a cool move.

With that being said, I do not believe that DO’s will be pigeonholed into PC, in fact I think it will lead to more DO’s going into specialty practice, but that’s just me.

See, you can’t have it both ways. I am a MD who had been told by a lot of my DO colleagues that DO schools heavily emphasize treating the whole person which make DOs well suited for primary care specialities. Not to mention the OMM.

I am saying that MDs do not treat the whole person, merely supposedly DO have the distinction of going the extra mile.

You don’t get to say that you are different when it helps the public perception (the whole AOA DO difference campaign) while claiming that you don’t practice any differently from MDs and should be treated exactly the same.

DO and MD are different schools of thoughts and have different philosphies, and that’s what I’ve been taught as a MD student.

I do believe that you have to demostrate to a surgeon or a radiologist why you should practice in a field that is very different from a field typically persumed by a DO grad just like how a rural primary care tract graduate of an internal medicine program need to justify harder to a GI program director why the desire in specialization.

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[SpartanWolverine]

... I do believe that you have to demostrate to a surgeon or a radiologist why you should practice in a field that is very different from a field typically persumed by a DO grad just like how a rural primary care tract graduate of an internal medicine program need to justify harder to a GI program director why the desire in specialization.

My experiences [in radiology] have been that, as long as you have a coherent 'story' demonstrating your interest - and application numbers that are in line with what they expect from a typical applicant - (many) programs won't blink at the degree. As far as spinning the degree to my advantage, I had one PD say that they found DO applicants to have a superior base of anatomy knowledge... so I guess that's something I can steal to use in future interviews if I get asked why being a DO makes me any different. (I roll my eyes as I have only trained with a handful of DO attendings in the clinical setting and thus don't feel like I have any particular slant on my training).

As mentioned in a previous comment as a DO it's important to have decent perspective of what an equally competitive MD applicant would have on their application.

 

[W19]

Current salary and current growth for PCPs will not last with reckless school openings and massive amount of supplies of PCPs down the road. The current admin people are literally selling your future and mine right now in order to make a quick buck in order to compare themselves to their ortho buddies next door.

If you want to see the future of PCPs in 5-7 years, feel free to stop by the dental forum. Here's the reality for general dentists right now:

90-120K/yr

As a dentist, if you work really hard, business savy, own your practice, and see 30-35+ pts/day, you will crack 225-250 K as your limit. Have fun paying that 300-400K debt while making 100-120 K/yr. If you want to call bs on these thoughts, feel free to become a PCP.

As long as residency spots remain somewhat stagnant, what you are predicting is not going to happen.

I think online NP and PA are more of a threat to primary care physician. But it seems like they have not been able to convince employers that they can really 'replace' physicians despite their rhetoric...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I realize DO students in many regards don’t really have a clue as to what a competitive application looks like for certain specialties.

This x1000

 

[SLC]

As long as residency spots remain somewhat stagnant, what you are predicting is not going to happen.

I think online NP and PA are more of a threat to primary care physician. But it seems like they have not been able to convince employers that they can really 'replace' physicians despite their rhetoric...

Thing is...PA’s and NP’s seem to want to work in the specialties too. They’re not exactly flocking to primary care en-masse.

There are a lot of them doing primary care; but they have dreams of being thought of as Orthopod’s too.

 

[UserUnidentified420]

Thing is...PA’s and NP’s seem to want to work in the specialties too. They’re not exactly flocking to primary care en-masse.

There are a lot of them doing primary care; but they have dreams of being thought of as Orthopod’s too.

good ol' everybody wants to be a doctor but nobody wants to go to doctor school or jump through doctor hoops

 

[deleted831695]

I do believe that you have to demostrate to a surgeon or a radiologist why you should practice in a field that is very different from a field typically persumed by a DO grad

And why does the DO have to demonstrate that more than the MD? If that's the field they're interested in, and they have the app for it, that should be it. The degree gives them an extra skillset and a certain perspective, not a directive that they'd be incompetent in non-PC.

 

[SurgDoc95]

And why does the DO have to demonstrate that more than the MD? If that's the field they're interested in, and they have the app for it, that should be it. The degree gives them an extra skillset and a certain perspective, not a directive that they'd be incompetent in non-PC.

This is what I’ve been getting at but couldn’t articulate it in between flights home haha


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[GypsyHummus]

Better than being a podiatrist.

 

[W19]

Better than being a podiatrist.

Aren't you a pod student?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

And why does the DO have to demonstrate that more than the MD? If that's the field they're interested in, and they have the app for it, that should be it. The degree gives them an extra skillset and a certain perspective, not a directive that they'd be incompetent in non-

Just like if I apply to a rural primary care residency in Idaho from a top 20 school in NYC, I will have to justify why the sudden change of my desire.


DO degree gives students extra skillset, but you win some and lose some. Research, for example, is one of those things.

Just like if I apply to a rural primary care residency in Idaho from a top 20 school in NYC, I will have to justify why the sudden change of my desire.


DO degree gives students extra skillset, but you win some and lose some. Research, for example, is one of those things.

 

[deleted831695]

Just like if I apply to a rural primary care residency in Idaho from a top 20 school in NYC, I will have to justify why the sudden change of my desire.

....that's not an accurate comparison. A DO who's interested in say, general surgery, shouldn't have to explain why they're pursuing that over primary care.

Yes, anybody going DO should expect that there's a very real possibility that they will end up in primary care (although I would say that's increasingly true even in the MD world with all the competition nowadays), but that doesn't mean we all have a desire to be in primary care. OMM and the whole-person approach might seem to be a good fit in PC, but that skillset and perspective can be useful in their own ways in other fields.

DO degree gives students extra skillset, but you win some and lose some. Research, for example, is one of those things.

Well, I had a pretty good research docket already entering med school, and my school does have research activity, so as a future DO I'm not losing anything here.

 

[IslandStyle808]

See, you can’t have it both ways. I am a MD who had been told by a lot of my DO colleagues that DO schools heavily emphasize treating the whole person which make DOs well suited for primary care specialities. Not to mention the OMM.

I am saying that MDs do not treat the whole person, merely supposedly DO have the distinction of going the extra mile.

You don’t get to say that you are different when it helps the public perception (the whole AOA DO difference campaign) while claiming that you don’t practice any differently from MDs and should be treated exactly the same.

DO and MD are different schools of thoughts and have different philosphies, and that’s what I’ve been taught as a MD student.

I do believe that you have to demostrate to a surgeon or a radiologist why you should practice in a field that is very different from a field typically persumed by a DO grad just like how a rural primary care tract graduate of an internal medicine program need to justify harder to a GI program director why the desire in specialization.

Well, things change in medical school. You find that primary care field not what you though it was and then you decide surgery is for you. Unfortunately, as a DO you are already locked into a certain set of fields that are possible. Yet, MDs who go to primary care focused schools (yes, they do exist) some how match into specialized field with much greater ease.

This is because the MD schools give enough tools to do the research and having the ability to avoid ERAS filters. Its the reason why my home states MD primary care school is able to match 1-3 people to dermatology in a class of 62 per year, versus KCU which can only match 1 DO to ACGME derm once every several years with a class of 270+.

There are primary care focused MD school that give enough resources for people to match into competitive field where as the "holistic" primary care DOs school cannot do the same. So why are DOs automatically placed on a different boat when students form primary care focused MD schools aren't?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

....that's not an accurate comparison. A DO who's interested in say, general surgery, shouldn't have to explain why they're pursuing that over primary care.

Yes, anybody going DO should expect that there's a very real possibility that they will end up in primary care (although I would say that's increasingly true even in the MD world with all the competition nowadays), but that doesn't mean we all have a desire to be in primary care. OMM and the whole-person approach might seem to be a good fit in PC, but that skillset and perspective can be useful in their own ways in other fields.



Well, I had a pretty good research docket already entering med school, and my school does have research activity, so as a future DO I'm not losing anything here.

Except they do, at least for general surgery. Charting outcome for DO shows a 51% match rate compared to peds at 90% and some student was posting about getting no ACGME interviews at all with an average application profile. Sadly a DO needs to go above and beyond to match into certain things like surgery but that’s just an existing situation.

With more former AOA program becoming ACGME there should be an easier match for surgery, maybe.

 

[deleted831695]

Except they do, at least for general surgery. Charting outcome for DO shows a 51% match rate compared to peds at 90% and some student was posting about getting no ACGME interviews at all with an average application profile. Sadly a DO needs to go above and beyond to match into certain things like surgery but that’s just an existing situation. With more former AOA program becoming ACGME there should be an easier match for surgery, maybe.

What does that have anything to do with what I was saying? I'm responding to your belief that a DO has to demonstrate more than an MD and justify why they're not going into primary care.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

What does that have anything to do with what I was saying? I'm responding to your belief that a DO has to demonstrate more than an MD and justify why they're not going into primary care.

That data is what I used to form my belief that DO students need to demostrate “why surgery” to a surgeon because clearly many surgery PDs do not feel DO schools prepare adequately for s surgical career, rightly or wrongly.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think that if you go to a DO school, you should at least be comfortable with the idea of doing primary care. It is a majority of DO schools mission statements after all to put students in primary care

Kind of like how dental students should be comfortable with the idea of doing general dentistry. Yeah, Ortho and Endo, and Oral surgery exist, but those are usually for the superstars.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Aren't you a pod student?

He's a postbacc student in one of the DO schools. He's convincing himself that Podiatry is a good career in case he doesn't make it to the DO school from the postbacc.

 

[W19]

He's a postbacc student in one of the DO schools. He's convincing himself that Podiatry is a good career in case he doesn't make it to the DO school from the postbacc.

I see... He seems to look down on pod, so podiatry might not be a good career choice for him.

 

[Prehealth1011]

I see... He seems to look down on pod, so podiatry might not be a good career choice for him.

He doesn't. Check his other posts. I've never seen anyone recommend Podiatry as much as he does.

 

[W19]

He doesn't. Check his other posts. I've never seen anyone recommend Podiatry as much as he does.

If he doesn't, he looks like he is ambivalent about pod...

 

[jl lin]

Then don't have kids.

Wow. You all do realize many NPs are making that amount? Seriously...don’t have kids. Again, wow.

 

[hallowmann]

If I have x papers/abstracts/posters coming into med school and complete no research in med school, does that actually make up (in part) for not completing research during med school?

Yeah, it definitely helps. It's nice to have research in the field you're going into though. It's doable in 3rd year at a DO school, its just harder to do than if it was built into the curriculum like it is at most MD schools.

Yeah, this is the crux of the issue. It is far more likely that I will have the grades/boards/decent letters, but not any research and I will be sunk because of this merger. I don't care what fair is or whatever. I have to live my life/career so people can spare me the "it's better for profession thing." I'm not a voluntary martyr like most people are apparently. It sucks that I know that if I was in school 2 years ago I wouldn't have to change career plans. Will I be happy and rich, sure, but to say it doesn't matter is a joke.

Like I said above, you can do research as a DO, its just more work. If you really want something as a DO, take a research year. So many MDs that I know do that, and the DOs I know that have matched ACGME RadOnc and Derm did that as well. Sure its harder, but for the most part its possible. If you truly want it, you'll have to work harder for it. It's not like residency is going to comy easy.

The first point isn't quite true. The average DO matriculant has a cummulative GPA of a 3.45 and MCAT of 501, vs an MD average of 3.7 with a SD of +/- 0.74 and an MCAT of 509 with an SD of +/- ~7, leaving y'all slightly under 1 SD from the mean.

More importantly, "lower tier" MD schools are generally deemed as such for measures pertaining to research rather than necessarily the grades of the students. The vast majority of lower-tier MD schools still have median GPAs in the 3.6 range and MCATs ~80th percentile. There really isn't as much overlap as you claim.

Now whether PDs should care about what a MS4's pre-med performance was is a whoe different question. But to say that there aren't noticeable differences in the academic profiles of MD and DO students is patently false.

Umm, I think you're mistaken.

DO Matriculant stats 2016:
GPA: 3.56; New MCAT: 502
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10

MD Matriculant stats 2016:
GPA: 3.70 w/ SD of 0.24; MCAT: 508.7 w/ SD of 6.9
https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

As for low tier MD schools, it also refers to smaller, less funded state schools, as well as new MD schools, most of whom when I applied had averages around 28-29 MCAT and 3.55 GPAs, which matched up easily with the top 1/3 DO school averages. Its likely still the case, but I'm not going to spend the money on an updated MSAR just to prove my point on the interwebs. So take it for what it's worth.

Also, about low tier MD schools having 80th percentile MCATs, that's like a 509, which is a little higher than the MD average. I suspect you're mistaken again, especially with a matriculant SD of 6.9. I'm sure you'll find MD schools further away from that than you think.

I don’t think he is making that claim at all, just pointing out that it isn’t as drastic as some would like to believe, particularly at the established schools.

Yeah, exactly. My point isn't that they're exactly the same population, but that there's definitely overlap in the populations (e.g. at least in the top 1/3 of DO matriculants and bottom 1/3 of MD matriculants).

...I do believe that you have to demostrate to a surgeon or a radiologist why you should practice in a field that is very different from a field typically persumed by a DO grad just like how a rural primary care tract graduate of an internal medicine program need to justify harder to a GI program director why the desire in specialization.

See that's the thing though. DOs are also very well trained on the anatomy and orthopedic side of things, and DO orthopedic surgeons have a pretty well established presence in the field (depending on your region). As a field itself, it does select for people with interest in the musculoskeletal system as well as primary care. I could see the argument made for Pathology, but I don't think any DO would really have to make that case.

That data is what I used to form my belief that DO students need to demostrate “why surgery” to a surgeon because clearly many surgery PDs do not feel DO schools prepare adequately for s surgical career, rightly or wrongly.

See what I have quoted just above this quote sounds like you believe DOs should have to justify themselves, not that you're just stating the fact that they do (which is true). Maybe it's just not coming across online, which is probably why you got the responses you did.

 

[68PGunner]

...

 

[ThreeCheers]

If you don't want to go to a DO program based off the insecurity instilled because of the merger... don't go.

Yeah, this is where the class of 2018 got screwed. Many of us had already put deposits down on DO schools when news of the merger broke.

See, you can’t have it both ways. I am a MD who had been told by a lot of my DO colleagues that DO schools heavily emphasize treating the whole person which make DOs well suited for primary care specialities. Not to mention the OMM.

I am saying that MDs do not treat the whole person, merely supposedly DO have the distinction of going the extra mile.

I wouldn't listen to those colleagues. Everyone in medicine, with the exception of fictional characters on medical dramas, is taught holistic care.

 

[68PGunner]

I think that if you go to a DO school, you should at least be comfortable with the idea of doing primary care. It is a majority of DO schools mission statements after all to put students in primary care

Kind of like how dental students should be comfortable with the idea of doing general dentistry. Yeah, Ortho and Endo, and Oral surgery exist, but those are usually for the superstars.

This is really a silly post.

I guarantee you that if a DO student is 95% locked into primary care as in Family Medicine or Internal Medicine, the # of DO applications would drop by 60-70%.

I and many of my colleagues aren’t subpar applicants. In fact, I would wager that about 70-80% of us would get into a MD if we spend a gap year improving on our deficiencies. However, a gap year means a loss of 200-250K in future salary.

Medicine is a wide field w/ plenty of cool specialties outside of surgery. The majority of us go DO bc we don’t mind going into fields outside of the super competitive fields like ENT, Ortho, etc... However, if all DOs suddenly get locked into primary care, that’s a big time no go.

So, let’s drop this bs about how I and my colleagues are MD rejects who should be grateful about having an opportunity to take out 400K in debt to be a Family Med physician. It’s really old and quite frankly annoying.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

This is really a silly post.

I guarantee you that if a DO student is 95% locked into primary care as in Family Medicine or Internal Medicine, the # of DO applications would drop by 60-70%.

I and many of my colleagues aren’t subpar applicants. In fact, I would wager that about 70-80% of us would get into a MD if we spend a gap year improving on our deficiencies. However, a gap year means a loss of 200-250K in future salary.

Medicine is a wide field w/ plenty of cool specialties outside of surgery. The majority of us go DO bc we don’t mind going into fields outside of the super competitive fields like ENT, Ortho, etc... However, if all DOs suddenly get locked into primary care, that’s a big time no go.

So, let’s drop this bs about how I and my colleagues are MD rejects who should be grateful about having an opportunity to take out 400K in debt to be a Family Med physician. It’s really old and quite frankly annoying.

Explain to me though, isn’t it true that many, many DO schools have primary care as its mission? No DO school have producing specialist as its mission?

Isn’t it true that if the big crunch for residency spots start, those DO schools are the first to be pigeoned hole into primary care?

In a sense, you made a choice. You chose to go to a type of US med school that is known for its primary care focus because you want to “save a year”.

You know what, MD students routinely do a research year. People make the decision everyday to get to the competitive specialties by strengthening their apps. All choices have consequences.

Fortunately though, DOs aren’t pigeoned holed into doing primary care. When 2020 comes, the specialities that will be essentially closed are probably
- rad onc
- IR
- ortho
- derm
- optho
- ENT
- urology

Specialties that will be difficult include
- EM
- gen surg
- possibly anesthesia

Specialities that will be relatively open
- community radiology spots
- everything else.

 

[GypsyHummus]

eh, it’s more like top 10% get to specialize in dentistry, not just top 5. Regardless, that’s how you should view going to DO school, even if it’s 70% going to primary care. Everyone thinks they are going to be in the top 30%, even those in the bottom 70.

And who said that DOs were MD rejects? I never made mention of that anywhere in my post you quoted. I stated that DOs should be comfortable with the very real possibility of primary care. It seems you are trying to defend your decision to go the DO route and create conflict where there isn’t any.

This is really a silly post.

I guarantee you that if a DO student is 95% locked into primary care as in Family Medicine or Internal Medicine, the # of DO applications would drop by 60-70%.

I and many of my colleagues aren’t subpar applicants. In fact, I would wager that about 70-80% of us would get into a MD if we spend a gap year improving on our deficiencies. However, a gap year means a loss of 200-250K in future salary.

Medicine is a wide field w/ plenty of cool specialties outside of surgery. The majority of us go DO bc we don’t mind going into fields outside of the super competitive fields like ENT, Ortho, etc... However, if all DOs suddenly get locked into primary care, that’s a big time no go.

So, let’s drop this bs about how I and my colleagues are MD rejects who should be grateful about having an opportunity to take out 400K in debt to be a Family Med physician. It’s really old and quite frankly annoying.

 

[deleted831695]

Explain to me though, isn’t it true that many, many DO schools have primary care as its mission? No DO school have producing specialist as its mission? Isn’t it true that if the big crunch for residency spots start, those DO schools are the first to be pigeoned hole into primary care?
In a sense, you made a choice. You chose to go to a type of US med school that is known for its primary care focus because you want to “save a year”.

And there are MD schools with specific missions like primary care, serving that particular state, underserved, etc. A good chunk of those students don't follow those missions, however. Likewise, just because DO schools have a tradition in producing PCPs doesn't mean every single person wants to be one.

 

[BabyHero]

The merger is a double edged sword. It hurt DO students because it makes them compete with MD students for the AOA competitive specialties. No matter how you slice it, less DOs will be doing ophthalmology and orthopedics (at least for the short term). The merger also helped DO students wanting to do primary care because it ensures that residency programs have to meet more rigorous standards and no half-baked residency programs will survive. It also hurt primary care because of an alarming number of DO residency programs that have shut down, meaning fewer overall national residency slots (and this will make it more difficult for IMGs to match). No matter how the AOA tries to spin it, this merger was not a net benefit for DOs.

 

[cookielover24]

How will community-based/mid-tier IM residencies turn out after the merger? More or less DO friendly?

 

[SLC]

What’s so wrong with primary care anyway? It’s the most important field to the general health of our communities, it’s the most coveted by physician employers, and it freaking rocks!

I swear SDN members rag on primary care simply because it’s not “prestigious”. We all know that medical students live to be thought of as better than their peers though.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The merger is a double edged sword. It hurt DO students because it makes them compete with MD students for the AOA competitive specialties. No matter how you slice it, less DOs will be doing ophthalmology and orthopedics (at least for the short term). The merger also helped DO students wanting to do primary care because it ensures that residency programs have to meet more rigorous standards and no half-baked residency programs will survive. It also hurt primary care because of an alarming number of DO residency programs that have shut down, meaning fewer overall national residency slots (and this will make it more difficult for IMGs to match). No matter how the AOA tries to spin it, this merger was not a net benefit for DOs.

You can argue that overall increase in quality of primary care training after many bad AOA programs shut their doors are a net positive to DOs, since the largest portion of DO students go into primary care. This also improve care recieved by the patients.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

As a DO student, I can say @DrfluffyMD speaks the truth but it seems like too too many DO students (majority of whom are in their first year of medschool it seems) are in their own fantasy world.
Go read the OB/Gyn forums. Go read the EM forums. **** is getting crazy. Last year there was less than 5 open EM programs in the SOAP. Same with OB. The reality is all fields are getting significantly more competitive with each year and we are going to see a shift in matching post-2020.

 

[SLC]

As a DO student, I can say @DrfluffyMD speaks the truth but it seems like too too many DO students (majority of whom are in their first year of medschool it seems) are in their own fantasy world.
Go read the OB/Gyn forums. Go read the EM forums. **** is getting crazy. Last year there was less than 5 open EM programs in the SOAP. Same with OB. The reality is all fields are getting significantly more competitive with each year and we are going to see a shift in matching post-2020.

As an osteopathic grad in an ACGME residency program (for 7 more months anyway), let me say, you are wrong in your assumptions here. Yet another person affected by the doom and gloom, hand-wringing crowd on SDN.

EM and OB are seemingly becoming more popular fields these past few years, but some other traditionally competitive fields are becoming less so. Examples: Anesthesia, Rads.

Thing is, you can’t focus on only two fields and surmise that the rest of the fields are experiencing a similar increase in popularity; and then extrapolate that residency is becoming significantly harder to obtain as a DO. The fact of the matter is that the opposite is true.

In the future, instead of making things up, look at the data. The past few years, as EM and OB have become more popular, record high match-rates for DO applicants have been occurring. This data seemingly flies directly in the face of what you’re saying here.

Sources:
2017 AOA and NRMP Match Results Show Record Growth Among Osteopathic Graduates

The results of the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP) Match™ were announced Friday, March 17. The match rate for the 2017 osteopathic medical student class to first-year graduate medical education (GME) positions was 81.7 percent—an all-time high.

Press Release: Results of 2016 NRMP Main Residency Match Largest on Record as Match Continues to Grow - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

The number of students/graduates of U.S. osteopathic medical schools submitting program preferences increased to 2,982, an all-time, and they earned a record-high match rate of 80.3 percent.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf

The number of active osteopathic students/graduates continued to grow in 2015. Of the 2,949 who submitted rank order lists of programs, 2,339 matched to PGY-1 positions, making their match rate of 79.3 percent the highest in over thirty years.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

The number of active osteopathic students/graduates rose again this year to 2,738, the most in NRMP history. Their PGY-1 match rate, 77.7 percent, was the highest in thirty years.

 

[Neopolymath]

As an osteopathic grad in an ACGME residency program (for 7 more months anyway), let me say, you are wrong in your assumptions here. Yet another person affected by the doom and gloom, hand-wringing crowd on SDN.

EM and OB are seemingly becoming more popular fields these past few years, but some other traditionally competitive fields are becoming less so. Examples: Anesthesia, Rads.

Thing is, you can’t focus on only two fields and surmise that the rest of the fields are experiencing a similar increase in popularity; and then extrapolate that residency is becoming significantly harder to obtain as a DO. The fact of the matter is that the opposite is true.

In the future, instead of making things up, look at the data. The past few years, as EM and OB have become more popular, record high match-rates for DO applicants have been occurring. This data seemingly flies directly in the face of what you’re saying here.

Sources:
2017 AOA and NRMP Match Results Show Record Growth Among Osteopathic Graduates


Press Release: Results of 2016 NRMP Main Residency Match Largest on Record as Match Continues to Grow - The Match, National Resident Matching Program


http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf


http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

Radiology and Anesthesia are becoming more competitive. Non-primary care specialities as mentioned earlier are all becoming more competitive. People with better stats are getting less interviews.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Whenever people like to be all gloomy and talk about how competitive things are getting always fail to mention that the biggest reason for the uptick in competitiveness has nothing to do with being a DO. The biggest reason competitiveness is increasing in fields like OB is because there are simply more and more people entering the match each year as MD and DO schools continue to proliferate. The rapid increase in medical students has elevated competitiveness in every medical field.

 

[68PGunner]

Radiology and Anesthesia are becoming more competitive. Non-primary care specialities as mentioned earlier are all becoming more competitive. People with better stats are getting less interviews.

I'm going to agree w/ SLC on this one. In the long run, things will get more competitive due to more medical students and limited residency spots. However, in the short run as in 2-4 years which is the time frame in which all medical students operate on, it's usually a relative matter. I have noticed that the competition for one of the fields that I'm interested in that has seen substantially increased #s in the past 4 years but a major dip this year is probably due to the heightened interest in Radiology, Gas, and EM.

Just work your hardest and hope for the best. Hopefully, in 10 years, our current generation of DOs can erase all of the stupidity and unchecked abusive expansion that are currently being championed by the current leadership.

 

[SLC]

Radiology and Anesthesia are becoming more competitive. Non-primary care specialities as mentioned earlier are all becoming more competitive. People with better stats are getting less interviews.

Radiology and Anesthesia were two of the most competitive fields when I was a premed. My next door neighbor was a 4th year at the University of Utah with a 256 on his USMLE, he was sweating whether he was going to get in to Radiology.

The past 7-10 years has seen Radiology fall from one of the very most competitive fields to about average (from what I can tell).

Maybe it’s picking up now? Either way, it has a long way to go before it’s back where it was when I was first paying attention. Which was right in line with Derm and Plastics.

This all still has nothing to do with the fact that despite everyone’s perception that the match is getting more and more competitive;the numbers…the real data, just doesn’t bear that out.

I graduated med school in 2015, that year DO’s had a 30+ year high match rate to ACGME programs. That number has gone up by 1-2% in 2016 and 2017. We’re now matching at a rate above 80%, MD’s are generally 91-94%

I don’t expect that to change at all.

 

[BabyHero]

What’s so wrong with primary care anyway? It’s the most important field to the general health of our communities, it’s the most coveted by physician employers, and it freaking rocks!

I swear SDN members rag on primary care simply because it’s not “prestigious”. We all know that medical students live to be thought of as better than their peers though.

There is nothing wrong with primary care.

 

[BabyHero]

As a DO student, I can say @DrfluffyMD speaks the truth but it seems like too too many DO students (majority of whom are in their first year of medschool it seems) are in their own fantasy world.
Go read the OB/Gyn forums. Go read the EM forums. **** is getting crazy. Last year there was less than 5 open EM programs in the SOAP. Same with OB. The reality is all fields are getting significantly more competitive with each year and we are going to see a shift in matching post-2020.

Yes, things are getting more competitive. No question about that. Things are also a whole level of difficulty higher for many DO students to obtain these competitive residency slots. At many programs in many specialties, being a DO is already a red flag and that is before your application is reviewed.

 

[BabyHero]

Radiology and Anesthesia are becoming more competitive. Non-primary care specialities as mentioned earlier are all becoming more competitive. People with better stats are getting less interviews.

I second this post.

 

[BabyHero]

I'm going to agree w/ SLC on this one. In the long run, things will get more competitive due to more medical students and limited residency spots. However, in the short run as in 2-4 years which is the time frame in which all medical students operate on, it's usually a relative matter. I have noticed that the competition for one of the fields that I'm interested in that has seen substantially increased #s in the past 4 years but a major dip this year is probably due to the heightened interest in Radiology, Gas, and EM.

Just work your hardest and hope for the best. Hopefully, in 10 years, our current generation of DOs can erase all of the stupidity and unchecked abusive expansion that are currently being championed by the current leadership.

Hope isn't a good strategy. The stupidity that has got us to this point doesn't appear to have any indication of changing in ten years. The ignorance of our current leadership and carelessness of the AOA has been awful for the last 30+ years and will continue to be that way.

 

[Neopolymath]

I'm going to agree w/ SLC on this one. In the long run, things will get more competitive due to more medical students and limited residency spots. However, in the short run as in 2-4 years which is the time frame in which all medical students operate on, it's usually a relative matter. I have noticed that the competition for one of the fields that I'm interested in that has seen substantially increased #s in the past 4 years but a major dip this year is probably due to the heightened interest in Radiology, Gas, and EM.

Just work your hardest and hope for the best. Hopefully, in 10 years, our current generation of DOs can erase all of the stupidity and unchecked abusive expansion that are currently being championed by the current leadership.

I'm not making this about DO's specifically. I'm saying that it is evident that the competitiveness is up in the above fields. Just look at the number of interviews people are getting for each of these fields on SDN for MD and DO students alike. I also don't think SLC actually pays attention to other fields considering what he has to say about radiology (and a lesser extent anesthesia). Just because DO students are matching at a higher rate doesn't mean that the field isn't more competitive overall. I think that is due to DO students being of higher quality each year and programs being less reluctant to take them. I'm not being doom and gloomy. Things ARE getting more congested for everyone. That's the only point I made. I don't know why he is obfuscating the point.

 

[BabyHero]

I'm not making this about DO's specifically. I'm saying that it is evident that the competitiveness is up in the above fields. Just look at the number of interviews people are getting for each of these fields on SDN for MD and DO students alike. I also don't think SLC actually pays attention to other fields considering what he has to say about radiology (and a lesser extent anesthesia). Because DO students are matching at a higher rate doesn't mean that the field isn't more competitive overall. I'm not being doom and gloomy. Things ARE getting more congested for everyone. That's the only point I made. I don't know why he is obfuscation the point.

It is easy for others to confuse the distorted reality presented on SDN with the actually reality of life.

 

[Neopolymath]

It is easy for others to confuse the distorted reality presented on SDN with the actually reality of life.

I have no idea what I just read.

 

[SLC]

Things ARE getting more congested for everyone. That's the only point I made. I don't know why he is obfuscating the point.

The DO match rate increasing year over year says otherwise.

 

[Neopolymath]

The DO match rate increasing year over year says otherwise.

Competitiveness doesn't have to simply mean matching versus not matching. I'm sure you know that...

 

[SLC]

Competitiveness doesn't have to simply mean matching versus not matching. I'm sure you know that...

Increase in competition/congestion across the board (as has been claimed) means more people unmatched though. How could it not?

 

[hallowmann]

Explain to me though, isn’t it true that many, many DO schools have primary care as its mission? No DO school have producing specialist as its mission?

Isn’t it true that if the big crunch for residency spots start, those DO schools are the first to be pigeoned hole into primary care?

In a sense, you made a choice. You chose to go to a type of US med school that is known for its primary care focus because you want to “save a year”.

You know what, MD students routinely do a research year. People make the decision everyday to get to the competitive specialties by strengthening their apps. All choices have consequences.

Fortunately though, DOs aren’t pigeoned holed into doing primary care. When 2020 comes, the specialities that will be essentially closed are probably
- rad onc
- IR
- ortho
- derm
- optho
- ENT
- urology

Specialties that will be difficult include
- EM
- gen surg
- possibly anesthesia

Specialities that will be relatively open
- community radiology spots
- everything else.

Ophtho and RadOnc are actually more DO friendly in the sense that if you have a competitive app in those fields, being a DO doesn't matter as much. The real issue is that most DOs don't have a competitive app, because it often requires networking and tons of research. For an average DO, they'd have to take a year off for research to really compete, on top of having great board scores. Not many DOs are aware that that's necessary nor are they necessarily able to get those kinds of scores.

How will community-based/mid-tier IM residencies turn out after the merger? More or less DO friendly?

Same or more DO friendly. Community IM is basically one of the least competitive field subsets. Plenty of DO match there regularly.

As a DO student, I can say @DrfluffyMD speaks the truth but it seems like too too many DO students (majority of whom are in their first year of medschool it seems) are in their own fantasy world.
Go read the OB/Gyn forums. Go read the EM forums. **** is getting crazy. Last year there was less than 5 open EM programs in the SOAP. Same with OB. The reality is all fields are getting significantly more competitive with each year and we are going to see a shift in matching post-2020.

People in forums also exaggerate. Its more competitive overtime, sure, but that isn't because of the merger. There are many more AMG students (both MD and DO), and their stats and apps are honestly more competitive on average.

That said, we've seen consistent increases in DO ACGME match rates, because the average DO is more competitive and more are applying ACGME.

Some of it is also attributable to the ease of submitting more apps. In the past, 30 apps for FM or Psych would have been unheard of and more than 10-12 interviews seemed like overkill. People are applying to double that and going on way more interviews, and programs are struggling to sort through it.

Whenever people like to be all gloomy and talk about how competitive things are getting always fail to mention that the biggest reason for the uptick in competitiveness has nothing to do with being a DO. The biggest reason competitiveness is increasing in fields like OB is because there are simply more and more people entering the match each year as MD and DO schools continue to proliferate. The rapid increase in medical students has elevated competitiveness in every medical field.

This.

Radiology and Anesthesia were two of the most competitive fields when I was a premed. My next door neighbor was a 4th year at the University of Utah with a 256 on his USMLE, he was sweating whether he was going to get in to Radiology.

The past 7-10 years has seen Radiology fall from one of the very most competitive fields to about average (from what I can tell).

Maybe it’s picking up now? Either way, it has a long way to go before it’s back where it was when I was first paying attention. Which was right in line with Derm and Plastics.

This all still has nothing to do with the fact that despite everyone’s perception that the match is getting more and more competitive;the numbers…the real data, just doesn’t bear that out.

I graduated med school in 2015, that year DO’s had a 30+ year high match rate to ACGME programs. That number has gone up by 1-2% in 2016 and 2017. We’re now matching at a rate above 80%, MD’s are generally 91-94%

I don’t expect that to change at all.

So, just to clarify. The most recent DO match rate of 81.7% compares to an MD (combined senior and grad rate) of ~90-91%. Or alternatively, the DO senior match rate is 87-89% compared to the 94-95% MD senior match rate.

I broke it down in one of my posts/threads... somewhere...

Hope isn't a good strategy. The stupidity that has got us to this point doesn't appear to have any indication of changing in ten years. The ignorance of our current leadership and carelessness of the AOA has been awful for the last 30+ years and will continue to be that way.

Yeah, I'm no huge fan of the AOA, but the bolded is kind of ridiculous if you actually look at what the AOA has done in the last few decades.

Lets review some of those highlights:
(1) expanded acceptance of the DO degree as a medical degree in almost double the number of countries than had accepted it previously (its still growing, and this includes complete recognition in all of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, among many others just in the last 5 yrs),
(2) created the designation of OPTIs and required DO schools to be affiliated with them, in essence linking all COMs to GME programs which benefited their students and graduates,
(3) increased requirements for new and satellite COMs with regards to their curriculum planning prior to recruitment,
(4) finally adjusted the clinical rotation requirements so that it matched the LCME requirement for at least some rotations with residents for all students,
(5) finally started the process of disconnecting AOA membership from maintaining AOA board certification, and let's not forget
(6) the merger, whose benefits have already been mentioned and namely secured an agreement that grants the DOs almost all of what they wanted, especially the continued ability to match into ACGME residencies and fellowships from AOA internships and residencies.

Now as far as the ridiculous school expansion goes, that's only been really happening for the last 10-15yrs, and at least the earlier portion of it (maybe up until 5-7yrs ago) has been either fine or beneficial to DOs. Lately things have gotten much worse without concomitant GME expansion and larger class sizes, so that's obviously not good.