Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

[Neopolymath]

Goro, what in the world are you on about? All that link says is that OMM "can" be used to treat blah blah blah. You "can" do a lot of things. So what? Also, it's cancer. Of course you would let patients do just about anything given their situation. Why not?

Most importantly though, students don't have a beef with OMM because they don't think it helps with lower back pain or whatever. It's pretty much everything else surrounding it and what it represents.

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[Goro]

Goro, what in the world are you on about? All that link says is that OMM "can" be used to treat blah blah blah. You "can" do a lot of things. So what? Also, it's cancer. Of course you would let patients do just about anything given their situation. Why not?

Most importantly though, students don't have a beef with OMM because they don't think it helps with lower back pain or whatever. It's pretty much everything else surrounding it and what it represents.

You're not familiar with Sloan-Kettering?

 

[Neopolymath]

You're not familiar with Sloan-Kettering?

You are saying that Sloan-Kettering publishing a short ankle-deep generalized piece on OMM treatment is some sort of signaling that OMM is legit? Call me dense, but I'm not getting what you are ultimately trying to say.

Found one about accupuncture: About Acupuncture | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

Another thing that might do something, but shouldn't be the basis of a whole degree in medicine lol...

 

[Lawpy]

Well, then there's the Nazi war criminal Reiter.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So did Marie Curie! (Chemistry and Physics)

I think Kary Mullis is one of the best examples of a Nobel Laureate not only getting something wrong, but being absolute whacko as well. Well, then there's the Nazi war criminal Reiter.

Psh, her physics one was shared with her husband and another dude (I think that might be the original devil's triangle!).

 

[Goro]

You are saying that Sloan-Kettering publishing a short ankle-deep generalized piece on OMM treatment is some sort of signaling that OMM is legit? Call me dense, but I'm not getting what you are ultimately trying to say.

Found one about acupuncture: About Acupuncture | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

Another thing that might do something, but shouldn't be the basis of a whole degree in medicine lol...

What I'm trying to get across, is that if it's pseudoscience (like homeopathy) why is it on the website of one of the best cancer centers in the world?

Unproven claims is a better descriptor....except for Chapman's points. They don't exist, like acupuncture meridians (which were named after famous Chinese rivers, IIRC). And those cranial bones don't move! My colleagues need to come up with better explanations as to what they're observing. Anyway, this all is for some of the more virulent self-hating DO students in this thread.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What I'm trying to get across, is that if it's pseudoscience (like homeopathy) why is it on the website of one of the best cancer centers in the world?

 

[Neopolymath]

View attachment 240414

Let me know where I can download the anki deck for HY fallacy memes.

 

[Goro]

View attachment 240414

I acknowledge that

 

[BorntobeDO?]

View attachment 240414

Your memes have been on point this thread, keep it up.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

What I'm trying to get across, is that if it's pseudoscience (like homeopathy) why is it on the website of one of the best cancer centers in the world?

Unproven claims is a better descriptor....except for Chapman's points. They don't exist, like acupuncture meridians (which were named after famous Chinese rivers, IIRC). And those cranial bones don't move! My colleagues need to come up with better explanations as to what they're observing. Anyway, this all is for some of the more virulent self-hating DO students in this thread.

Have you dealt with patients? They will come in having tried the randomest crap in the world, especially oncology patients, if it gives even a sliver of hope for symptomatic relief. Offering information on different therapeutic modalities doesn't always mean you endorse them as a good choice, however you are obligated to provide info.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Damn, guys....I've been on SDN form some 6-7 years, and this is the first I've heard about these bon mots!

Filing away for future reference.

BTW, here's what Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center (they of Jim Allison 2018 Nobel Laureate fame) has to say about that pseudoscientific OMM:
Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment (OMT) | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

A) appeal to authority fallacy (don’t you have a PhD at minimum? Shame on you)
B) this amazing resource says OMT can treat ear infections. This BS is why people laugh at DO’s.


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[Doc_Ock]

Have you dealt with patients? They will come in having tried the randomest crap in the world, especially oncology patients, if it gives even a sliver of hope for symptomatic relief. Offering information on different therapeutic modalities doesn't always mean you endorse them as a good choice, however you are obligated to provide info.

As a responsible physician practicing science based medicine you have an ethical obligation to recommend treatments that are shown to be safe, effective, and science based. Offering them false hope may make everyone feel better temporarily but it’s the wrong thing to do.


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[Neopolymath]

As a responsible physician practicing science based medicine you have an ethical obligation to recommend treatments that are shown to be safe, effective, and science based. Offering them false hope may make everyone feel better temporarily but it’s the wrong thing to do.


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I don't know if you have noticed this, but in real life, dying people get a free pass on all kinds of things. Cancer teams seem to play by a different set of rules. Tell us about ethics though lol.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Have you dealt with patients? They will come in having tried the randomest crap in the world, especially oncology patients, if it gives even a sliver of hope for symptomatic relief. Offering information on different therapeutic modalities doesn't always mean you endorse them as a good choice, however you are obligated to provide info.

Yep. And not even hope for cure or even improvement necessarily, when it comes to cancer patients sometimes even a placebo effect of relieving their pain is the best that you can do.

As a responsible physician practicing science based medicine you have an ethical obligation to recommend treatments that are shown to be safe, effective, and science based. Offering them false hope may make everyone feel better temporarily but it’s the wrong thing to do.


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No it’s not. You aren’t offering them hope for a cure or anything like that. You are offering them something that might relieve their pain and suffering if only for a short time. Even if it’s 100% placebo, if it makes patients feel better then do it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

As a responsible physician practicing science based medicine you have an ethical obligation to recommend treatments that are shown to be safe, effective, and science based. Offering them false hope may make everyone feel better temporarily but it’s the wrong thing to do.


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Oh, and don’t be too disillusioned when you finally figure out that a lot of what is done in medicine has actually no research backing it up.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Oh, and don’t be too disillusioned when you finally figure out that a lot of what is done in medicine has actually no research backing it up.

Ah the ol’ tried and true “oh yeahhhhhh well other stuff isn’t backed by research either.” Whataboutism at its finest.


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[PickleRickelus]

Ah the ol’ tried and true “oh yeahhhhhh well other stuff isn’t backed by research either.” Whataboutism at its finest.


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Bro did someone **** in your cereal this morning?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ah the ol’ tried and true “oh yeahhhhhh well other stuff isn’t backed by research either.” Whataboutism at its finest.


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Lol the point











You.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Bro did someone **** in your cereal this morning?

It’s sad that that’s your interpretation of pointing out basic logical fallacies.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

It’s sad that that’s your interpretation of pointing out basic logical fallacies.


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Reading is hard. You rode in on your white horse with this statement:

As a responsible physician practicing science based medicine you have an ethical obligation to recommend treatments that are shown to be safe, effective, and science based

And you are choosing to die on the hill of “effective and science based” over giving essentially a feel good placebo to dying cancer patients lol.

All I did was inform you that the white horse you are riding is actually a jacka$$. I never made a whataboutism to defend OMM.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Wow, has this thread gone into the weeds. No one said OMT cures cancer. OMT does make patients feel better. You dont need a double blinded randomized study to suggest it's raining outside . Patients will tell you when they leave how they feel. Also helps your physician review stats. So what's wrong with helping patients feel better? Isnr that why we went into medicine? Science based safe and effective treatments? Like the science that said you could give opioids to patients with chronic benign pain and they would NOT become addicted if they took opioids while in pain? Or after 40 years they still dont know how to resuscitate patients? The ACLS book has changed every year. I haven't seen anyone calling the Red Cross a bunch of fringe practitioners
Should patients take an aspirin every day? Is salt bad? The literature is not very clear. We have prescribed lithium for decades without understanding the mechanism, until about a year ago. Were we Troglodites? I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and recognize OMT is an adjunctive therapy like so many others. It has a place and purpose when applied to an accurate diagnosis. With respect to evidence based medicine maybe we should refer to it as Best Evidence Based Medicine?

 

[Doc_Ock]

Reading is hard. You rode in on your white horse with this statement:


And you are choosing to die on the hill of “effective and science based” over giving essentially a feel good placebo to dying cancer patients lol.

All I did was inform you that the white horse you are riding is actually a jacka$$. I never made a whataboutism to defend OMM.

That’s precisely what your statement implies, whether you realize that or not.


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[Doc_Ock]

Wow, has this thread gone into the weeds. No one said OMT cures cancer. OMT does make patients feel better. You dont need a double blinded randomized study to suggest it's raining outside . Patients will tell you when they leave how they feel. Also helps your physician review stats. So what's wrong with helping patients feel better? Isnr that why we went into medicine? Science based safe and effective treatments? Like the science that said you could give opioids to patients with chronic benign pain and they would NOT become addicted if they took opioids while in pain? Or after 40 years they still dont know how to resuscitate patients? The ACLS book has changed every year. I haven't seen anyone calling the Red Cross a bunch of fringe practitioners
Should patients take an aspirin every day? Is salt bad? The literature is not very clear. We have prescribed lithium for decades without understanding the mechanism, until about a year ago. Were we Troglodites? I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and recognize OMT is an adjunctive therapy like so many others. It has a place and purpose when applied to an accurate diagnosis. With respect to evidence based medicine maybe we should refer to it as Best Evidence Based Medicine?

We actually have pretty good literature on the things you claimed we don’t. Pity you haven’t read them. Are you related to Michael Behe? Ignorance of the research doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (and again is just a crappy whataboutism defense anyway)


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[Neopolymath]

Shut the hospitals down. We can't do a lot of effective treatments because a first year medical student (surely not further along?) thinks only proven treatments should ever be done.

Somehow this post will make me an OMM apologist lol.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Shut the hospitals down. We can't do a lot of effective treatments because a first year medical student (surely not further along?) thinks only proven treatments should ever be done.

Somehow this post will make me an OMM apologist lol.

There’s always a balance between proven effectiveness, clinical experience, safety, and physiological plausibility.
“Lots of stuff we do has no proof” is
a) a gross exaggeration, and that’s being generous.
b) let’s say this one slowly..... the presence..... of pseudoscience...... is not.... an excuse...... for more..... pseudoscience. How on earth is that controversial?



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[Black Coffee 24/7]

Did @Goro just hijack this thread with some bushido about OMM?

Don't give a damn about OMM and will not practice OMM in the future. It's sad to how jaded I am about OMM due to my hatred for my school, considering that my first DO mentor was an OMM guru.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Did @Goro just hijack this thread with some bushido about OMM?

Don't give a damn about OMM and will not practice OMM in the future. It's sad to how jaded I am about OMM due to my hatred for my school, considering that my first DO mentor was an OMM guru.

Medical school sucks, it will probably be the worst period in your life. Dont let them jade you, mine was pretty awful to the students too. Keep your eye on the prize, residency and your career. Dont look back. They will ask for money someday or ask you to take students. You will know how to answer. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Neopolymath]

There’s always a balance between proven effectiveness, clinical experience, safety, and physiological plausibility.
“Lots of stuff we do has no proof” is
a) a gross exaggeration, and that’s being generous.
b) let’s say this one slowly..... the presence..... of pseudoscience...... is not.... an excuse...... for more..... pseudoscience. How on earth is that controversial?



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The balance was "this guy has cancer and is going to die so who gives a **** if we let him do acupuncture?" Then you come in here all Lerroooy Jenkins and moving the goalposts to argue a point no one made, but ok.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

There’s always a balance between proven effectiveness, clinical experience, safety, and physiological plausibility.
“Lots of stuff we do has no proof” is
a) a gross exaggeration, and that’s being generous.
b) let’s say this one slowly..... the presence..... of pseudoscience...... is not.... an excuse...... for more..... pseudoscience. How on earth is that controversial?



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a) No its not

b) if its not harmful, not a substitute for real medical care, and being paid for by the patient (or the patient's non-governmental health insurance) who cares?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That’s precisely what your statement implies, whether you realize that or not.


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We actually have pretty good literature on the things you claimed we don’t. Pity you haven’t read them. Are you related to Michael Behe? Ignorance of the research doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (and again is just a crappy whataboutism defense anyway)


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Man you sure do like moving the goalposts..

And you literally have no idea what you are talking about. Like I said earlier, don’t be disillusioned when you finally figure out that a lot of what we do has zero actual evidence behind it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

if its not harmful, not a substitute for real medical care, and being paid for by the patient (or the patient's non-governmental health insurance) who cares?

Especially when said patient is a cancer patient with a poor prognosis. As long as it doesn’t cause more harm then can get whatever they please in terms of adjunct treatments. They know it’s not going to cure them.

 

[Goro]

Did @Goro just hijack this thread with some bushido about OMM?

Don't give a damn about OMM and will not practice OMM in the future. It's sad to how jaded I am about OMM due to my hatred for my school, considering that my first DO mentor was an OMM guru.

My apologies for turning the thread into a dumpster fire. It's what I get for trying to talk some sense into some self-hating DO students.

You'll be out of there sooner than you think. Then at least you trade French lessons for actually going to France.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread has been reported so many times that I don't even know where to begin warning.
A civil, on-topic discussion, please.

 

[Goro]

This thread has been reported so many times that I don't even know where to begin warning.
A civil, on-topic discussion, please.

Here's a tldr for those of you who don't wish to read through nine pages:

 

[Scrubs101]

Come on all this is sdn id expect you guys to know this already...

Reference our lord and savior Zanki:

If a patient wants to try alternative or holistic medicine that is known to be safe, should you allow them to do so?
*flip*
Yes

Notes: Find out why they want to; make sure there are no contraindications, medication interactions, or adverse effects to the new treatment

On topic:
The merger is good for DO students in the sense that acgme standardized training is good if you want to practice abroad, alternative was no more acgme fellowships, and the majority of DO students will end up in the same field that they would have prior to the merger (PC). I say this as someone not currently interested in PC, knowing that some non pc specialties (surg subs, surgery, etc) will be harder to match post merger. But for the majority of DO students i see it as a good thing.

Im way more scared of rapid expansion of schools than the merger.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Im way more scared of rapid expansion of schools than the merger.

This. I hate all those "Woot woot" new school opening topics.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Reference our lord and savior Zanki:

If a patient wants to try alternative or holistic medicine that is known to be safe, should you allow them to do so?
*flip*
Yes

Lol the other day for our OMM exam someone posted Quizlet cards for some stuff and I was too lazy to study anything else so I used them. This was me afterwards:

Im way more scared of rapid expansion of schools than the merger.

This. I'm not worried about competing with MD students. I am, however, very worried about the flood of residency applicants that is coming.

 

[Scrubs101]

Lol the other day for our OMM exam someone posted Quizlet cards for some stuff and I was too lazy to study anything else so I used them. This was me afterwards:
View attachment 240441



This. I'm not worried about competing with MD students. I am, however, very worried about the flood of residency applicants that is coming.

Lmfaooo you gotta be the guy thats always airdropping the dank memes in the middle of lecture

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Lmfaooo you gotta be the guy thats always airdropping the dank memes in the middle of lecture

Lol I would but who has time to go to lecture?

 

[shadowlightfox]

MRW when I use an anki deck not made by Zanki

 

[group_theory]

Closing. Res ipsa loquitur