Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

[DrfluffyMD]

I understood your point and I know that applying for residency can act as a seller's market with PD's choosing whoever they want, which means they are free to select for prestige and justify that by saying these students would become "excellent residents" (even though excellence is subjective). That doesn't mean PD's aren't elitist when making such decisions, because by selecting regularly for average students at top schools, they are also acting on the idea that good students at average schools don't meet the cut.

Then again, no one said human-driven admissions is a fair process especially with cognitive biases and personal preferences playing a major role in deciding who gets interviewed and matched.

There is some Dunning-Kruger effect at play when someone see PD’s choice for top 5 med school grads with average score only occurs due to prestige bias.

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[Lawpy]

There is some Dunning-Kruger effect at play when someone see PD’s choice for top 5 med school grads with average score only occurs due to prestige bias.

I didn’t say prestige bias was the only factor. I said it played a role, perhaps significant, which is what I oppose. But like I said in that post, it’s really just a seller’s market in the end, so PD’s are free to act however they want, even irrationally, to get the class they want.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There is some Dunning-Kruger effect at play when someone see PD’s choice for top 5 med school grads with average score only occurs due to prestige bias.

I never said that. But to say it doesn’t play a role is a complete lie.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I never said that. But to say it doesn’t play a role is a complete lie.

^^Even you said in a previous post that you’re sure that the 225 Harvard grad will be a great physician. At the end of the day PDs trust name brand products. If it wasn’t working for them, they’d do something different. Apparently it is so they keep doing it. Why mess with success?

 

[Lawpy]

^^Even you said in a previous post that you’re sure that the 225 Harvard grad will be a great physician. At the end of the day PDs trust name brand products. If it wasn’t working for them, they’d do something different. Apparently it is so they keep doing it. Why mess with success?

Someone with a 225 with all passes from a low tier can also be a great physician... but not the “great physician” certain PD’s are looking for.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Someone with a 225 with all passes from a low tier can also be a great physician... but not the “great physician” certain PD’s are looking for.

Absolutely. A DO w a 225 can too. But of those 3 groups, the guys/gals from those top schools don’t feel the need to go on SDN to argue this point. No one doubts them. Including PDs. That’s the point.

 

[Lawpy]

Absolutely. A DO w a 225 can too. But of those 3 groups, the guys/gals from those top schools don’t feel the need to go on SDN to argue this point. No one doubts them. Including PDs. That’s the point.

I know this happens but the reason for this discussion is simply an extension to @AnatomyGrey12 frustration that PD’s look down on DO’s simply because they are DO, and that having a DO in their programs lowers the quality of class. The reverse argument of PD’s loving top school graduates because their name brand will improve the program quality is also seen and readily supported here apparently.

Name brand matters, PD’s select for prestige etc. these things are obvious but those getting shafted by them feel frustrated and go to SDN to rant. And I’d definitely rather follow and understand their frustrations than read about usual political discussions on these forums.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I know this happens but the reason for this discussion is simply an extension to @AnatomyGrey12 frustration that PD’s look down on DO’s simply because they are DO, and that having a DO in their programs lowers the quality of class. The reverse argument of PD’s loving top school graduates because their name brand will improve the program quality is also seen and readily supported here apparently.

Name brand matters, PD’s select for prestige etc. these things are obvious but those getting shafted by them feel frustrated and go to SDN to rant. And I’d definitely rather follow and understand their frustrations than read about usual political discussions on these forums.

I absolutely agree with this post. My comments have been more about trying to show the other side of the argument. It stinks to me bc quite literally the best doc I’ve ever met has been a DO. A real rock star. The worst doc I’ve ever met (he’s never getting near me or mine) went to a top school. I know first hand that these rules aren’t as hard and fast as SDN makes them out to be. Nevertheless, I understand the reality that they have the job of picking the best candidate based on little data.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

Medicine, like any other field, is all about connections. In general, students coming from super elite programs have connections. They have people in the industry, their families have a lot of money, and they often have friends and relatives in the school admin and on the hospital systems.

Now, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m a first generation doctor going to a Podunk DO school, but I also know that it would be disingenuous and ridiculously ignorant to pretend this is not a factor.

And to phrase a different way: super selective programs are going to pick what they know from where they know.

I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but if you think that you were being chosen strictly on merit, then you don’t understand how things work.

*THEEEEE* most important thing I’m this field is having connections. Anybody that tells you differently is either uninformed or lying.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Yeah I already have no love for the AOA or any of its branches. They are a joke and are the ones honestly holding everyone back.

The funny thing is that they could really have some serious credibility. They have been trying for a century to get DOs recognized and we are finally at a time where the quality of students is the best it has ever been, we have tons of legal recognition, and many of the schools are actually really good and produce great physicians. If they wanted to they could hold onto that and really turn the “DO brand” into something really great by continuing to better clinical training, open solid residencies, start doing some decent research, and just build off this foundation to show how we are just as competent as MDs. Instead they *****ically green light almost every school that applies in the most random of places, continue to water down clinical education by over saturating resources, and push the stupid idea that somehow we are so much better than MDs because of who knows what “Doctors that DO” and all that nonsense. It’s their funeral, but what really makes me mad is they are determined to bring down everyone else down with them.

/endrant *quietly steps off soapbox

Dude this is what I say all the time. ALL THE TIME. I'm not one to fall into believing the DO degree will disappear. But its absolutely INSANE to me that none of the leadership are doing anything to 'brand' the profession into something actually meaningful and useful. We have all of these holistic and primary care based philosophies, then WHY haven't any of the leadership made significant effort to actually implement these into the medical infrastructure?? Why don't our schools practice what they preach by having their own 'holistic' hospitals? The DO education system is set up for us to effectively not be 'distinguished' from our MD counterparts, all while the DO leadership is toting how unique we are--when in reality we are literally just existing in a medical system that they have had little to no influence on. Maybe this can't be said for the few state schools, but its definitely true for the majority. I personally would love to see the DO profession advocate for meaningful things like preventative care, health-care reform, or various forms of personalized medicine.

 

[amerepedestrian]

I don't think people in general are yapping about the merger. It's more about whining of a symptom that's part of the bigger issue, in which school admin people are straight up delusional or not prepared about the new changes in order to efficiently tweak their education structure and curriculum in order to allow their students to better match to a desirable specialty.

When you have DO school admins telling students not to worry about the USMLE, that's a big issue for the Class of 2020 and beyond. When you have DO school admins telling students that the status quo will remain, that's a big issue. When you have DO school admins patting their buddies on their backs for being able to successfully open the 5th or 6th DO school in a small state, that's a big issue especially since you're encouraging your graduates to go into primary care and at the same time clamoring for more subpar DO school openings in order for their buddies to line up their pockets. Chances are that all of the graduates from these subpar schools won't be able to match into any other specialties besides primary care. It's already a pain that the DO education is about 100-200K more expensive than a good majority of the MD schools. It's criminal for the leadership to oversupply the market with PCPs, leading to depressed wages in the future while burdening the students with a half billion $$$ debt load. They disguise their profit seeking true motive by pointing to the shortage of PCPs, while everyone in the medical school with a half cent brain knows that it's a maldistribution problem.

As students and adults, we deserve the truth. Let's just be honest from the start. Why is it so difficult to admit to the truth and work together on an agreed path, instead of all of these smokes and mirrors? With the Internet, all of us will know of the truth especially for those who are curious enough to look into these issues.

Can you name some of the sub-par schools?

 

[68PGunner]

Can you name some of the sub-par schools?

All DO schools w/o an attached teaching hospitals that have residency specialties are trash.

The reason for this is that LORs from some private practice docs don’t mean jack unless that guy or gal is very well known and has mad connections to top programs. If you do well at your teaching hospital, LORs from your PD mean a hell lot more bc it’s a small world when it comes to academic medicine. In the worse case scenario, you will still match at your program assuming that you don’t have any options.

 

[Chibucks15]

All DO schools w/o an attached teaching hospitals that have residency specialties are trash.

The reason for this is that LORs from some private practice docs don’t mean jack unless that guy or gal is very well known and has mad connections to top programs. If you do well at your teaching hospital, LORs from your PD mean a hell lot more bc it’s a small world when it comes to academic medicine. In the worse case scenario, you will still match at your program assuming that you don’t have any options.

Not every one of them is trash sometimes you just may have to travel a bit to be in a hospital setting. it is what it is. And people still do fine (given they aren't trying to match something crazy, which is competitive for MDs as well). SDN loves the broad brush doom and gloom. I agree the AOA needs to get their act together the politics are doing nothing but hurting some of their own. The merger will help better things in terms of improving overall rotation quality and that will create better clinicians. There will always be a 'prestige bias' regardless if its a LCGME filter or a top 20 filter or whatever. PDs will find a way to filter down the pool of applicants. And sometimes it isn't in the cards for certain people to be top ortho docs or whatever. If they're 'top specialty or bust' then they need to improve their app for a very good MD program if they're any sort of realistic.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Dude this is what I say all the time. ALL THE TIME. I'm not one to fall into believing the DO degree will disappear. But its absolutely INSANE to me that none of the leadership are doing anything to 'brand' the profession into something actually meaningful and useful. We have all of these holistic and primary care based philosophies, then WHY haven't any of the leadership made significant effort to actually implement these into the medical infrastructure?? Why don't our schools practice what they preach by having their own 'holistic' hospitals? The DO education system is set up for us to effectively not be 'distinguished' from our MD counterparts, all while the DO leadership is toting how unique we are--when in reality we are literally just existing in a medical system that they have had little to no influence on. Maybe this can't be said for the few state schools, but its definitely true for the majority. I personally would love to see the DO profession advocate for meaningful things like preventative care, health-care reform, or various forms of personalized medicine.

I think your leadership are emphasizing primary care and the DO difference, though. They are resisting standarization like the merger.

 

[SurgDoc95]

All DO schools w/o an attached teaching hospitals that have residency specialties are trash.

The reason for this is that LORs from some private practice docs don’t mean jack unless that guy or gal is very well known and has mad connections to top programs. If you do well at your teaching hospital, LORs from your PD mean a hell lot more bc it’s a small world when it comes to academic medicine. In the worse case scenario, you will still match at your program assuming that you don’t have any options.

Nah KCU isn’t trash.


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[TheaterOfTheme]

I think your leadership are emphasizing primary care and the DO difference, though. They are resisting standarization like the merger.

Well, they emphasize it more in word than in deed. When was the last time you saw DO leadership trying to initiate change in the actual infrastructure of primary care medicine? I'm talking about systems that are based more in prevention similar to those seen in the U.K. Etc. That's just one example. If DO leadership actually believed what they spoke, that's what they'd do. Like we all know, they are in it for the money.


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[DrfluffyMD]

Well, they emphasize it more in word than in deed. When was the last time you saw DO leadership trying to initiate change in the actual infrastructure of primary care medicine? I'm talking about systems that are based more in prevention similar to those seen in the U.K. Etc. That's just one example. If DO leadership actually believed what they spoke, that's what they'd do. Like we all know, they are in it for the money.


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If I were them I would be heavily marketing DOs as well suited for direct primary care and concierge medicine with OMM skills.

Except they aren’t for some reason. It’s a low hanging fruit.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

If I were them I would be heavily marketing DOs as well suited for direct primary care and concierge medicine with OMM skills.

Except they aren’t for some reason. It’s a low hanging fruit.

Exactly. It would be a slightly higher hanging fruit, but they could aim to 'redefine' the primary care infrastructure. But sadly, our OMM visionaries do not look at these issues holistically.

 

[68PGunner]

ICOM has been approved to pump out 150-170 Family Med physicians per year. Sigh...

 

[Cath Up]

ICOM has been approved to pump out 150-170 Family Med physicians per year. Sigh...

 

[deleted831695]

If I were them I would be heavily marketing DOs as well suited for direct primary care and concierge medicine with OMM skills. Except they aren’t for some reason. It’s a low hanging fruit.

DOs already go into primary care by the numbers. Plenty of us don't want to go into primary care, and wouldn't want to be solely marketed as only trained to be a PCP. Osteopathic medicine is an approach to medicine, and OMM is an extra skillset that may or may not be used in our future practice.

 

[deleted407021]

DOs already go into primary care by the numbers. Plenty of us don't want to go into primary care, and wouldn't want to be solely marketed as only trained to be a PCP. Osteopathic medicine is an approach to medicine, and OMM is an extra skillset that may or may not be used in our future practice.

Aye, and advocating that all DOs be pigeonholed into PC is a slap in the face of physicians everywhere.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

 

[deleted407021]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

No one even implied anything wrong with primary care. I’m saying as a medical student who happens to go to a DO a school (one that doesn’t pressure students into PC) that I want to go through my training which is as rigorous as anyone else’s and be free to try and enter any speciality I’m interested in, whether it’s realistic for me or not. The notion is a slap in the face of high achieving DO physicians at competitive programs and academic centers and I personally hate the idea of institutionally limiting anyone’s training options. Throwing merit out the window even more so than it perhaps already has been in this process.

 

[deleted831695]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

Why do you always go to the extreme? Nobody said anything bad about primary care. Osteopathic medicine principles and OMM might serve well in PC, but those same skills can be useful in other specialties. There are MD schools with focus on primary care, yet have diverse match outcomes.

Okay...and I am in med school at a Big Ten school that is one of the largest universities in the country, with research activity, and clinical training in the greater Metro Detroit area. So, guess I should have a match outcome in literally anything based on what you're saying.

 

[deleted407021]

Why do you always go to the extreme? Nobody said anything bad about primary care. Osteopathic medicine principles and OMM might serve well in PC, but those same skills can be useful in other specialties. There are MD schools with focus on primary care, yet have diverse match outcomes.

Okay...and I am in med school at a Big Ten school that is one of the largest universities in the country, with research activity, and clinical training in the greater Metro Detroit area. So, guess I should have a match outcome in literally anything based on what you're saying.

Not sure how taking the role of the patient for a few hours a week for 2 years, taking your shirt off and being exposed, poked and prodded and getting extra training in the MSK system could be a detriment for a physician in any specialty.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

You're buying into the DO koolaid brah...

There are dozens of MD schools that do a good job making primary care doctors, my former state school included. It not really an MD or DO thing.

Its not that there is nothing wrong with specializing or going into primary, its just that a lot of options are thrown out because of going to a DO school. While an MD student can go to a primary care focused school and almost all specialities are still on the table.

 

[W19]

Radiology and Anesthesia were two of the most competitive fields when I was a premed. My next door neighbor was a 4th year at the University of Utah with a 256 on his USMLE, he was sweating whether he was going to get in to Radiology.

The past 7-10 years has seen Radiology fall from one of the very most competitive fields to about average (from what I can tell).

Maybe it’s picking up now? Either way, it has a long way to go before it’s back where it was when I was first paying attention. Which was right in line with Derm and Plastics.

This all still has nothing to do with the fact that despite everyone’s perception that the match is getting more and more competitive;the numbers…the real data, just doesn’t bear that out.

I graduated med school in 2015, that year DO’s had a 30+ year high match rate to ACGME programs. That number has gone up by 1-2% in 2016 and 2017. We’re now matching at a rate above 80%, MD’s are generally 91-94%

I don’t expect that to change at all.

I am not even sure rad is picking up the way people in SDN are saying. One classmate with 226 step1 (no step 2 CK/CS score so far) and some research has gotten 12 invites (out of 60-something applications) last time I talked to him, which was in mid November. Most people here try to portray their specialty as very competitive. Gas now is becoming something like FM in term of competitiveness.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

DO training is great for a lot of specialties outside of primary care. By DO training I mean OMM. Even if you don't want to specifically practice OMM or dont believe many of the more *ahem* esoteric parts of it, the extra training in the functional anatomy of the msk system, and how the nervous system works with it, are great for sports med, pm&r, and ortho. We match well into each of those specialties (via fm for sports) except for traditionally acgme Ortho. It seems that given our extra training, we might be even better fit for it going into residency, so how come we match so poorly into it (Assuming on par board scores, research, letters, etc.)?

 

[Instatewaiter]

DO training is great for a lot of specialties outside of primary care. By DO training I mean OMM. Even if you don't want to specifically practice OMM or dont believe many of the more *ahem* esoteric parts of it, the extra training in the functional anatomy of the msk system, and how the nervous system works with it, are great for sports med, pm&r, and ortho. We match well into each of those specialties (via fm for sports) except for traditionally acgme Ortho. It seems that given our extra training, we might be even better fit for it going into residency, so how come we match so poorly into it (Assuming on par board scores, research, letters, etc.)?

You're asking why students who couldn't get into an MD school fare poorly against some of the strongest MD students? Can't think of a reason... must be bias.

 

[Scrubs101]

You're asking why students who couldn't get into an MD school fare poorly against some of the strongest MD students? Can't think of a reason... must be bias.

Y'all really need to stop making the assumption that just because a student couldnt get into an MD school that they will inherently be worse (medical) students/residents/attendings, there's so many variables in play that undergrad GPA is not the end all be all of ones worth in this field.

MD school admissions can be a nightmare for even a well prepared applicant that knew they wanted to be a doctor since highschool with little to no hiccups, now take a student that didn't realize they wanted medicine till later in life and they're going to have an even tougher/near impossible time. That student can still turn up the heat, get into a school with admissions that reward reinvention (how DO schools had historically been with grade replacement), actually put in 110% effort from the beginning of med school, crank out research and a high step score, and come out as what would otherwise be an extremely competitive candidate if it weren't for inherit "bias" against the letters D.O.

Edit: should probably add the poster you quoted mentioned at the end that the hypothetical student had "on par board scores/research etc". So no ones previous ability to get into whatever school they are applying (to whatever field) from, should not have a bearing on this. I would be more willing to accept the overplayed "worse clinical eduction" stigma, than whatever point you are trying to make here

 

[deleted407021]

Y'all really need to stop making the assumption that just because a student couldnt get into an MD school

And assuming that every DO student couldn’t get into an MD school. That’s ignoring a lot of people. Myself and several of my classmates had tons of options and picked our school for myriad good reasons.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

Consider yourself lucky then. The only thing that kept me from an MD School was an unredeemable undergrad gpa from when I was a stupid 18 year old kid who didn't know what they wanted. As soon as I figured out I wanted to go into medicine I cranked it up and managed 3.8 for the last 3 years of college and in my smp. The damage was done though and I'm just glad someone was able to actually holistically evaluate my application and allow me the chance to become a physician. Now in medical school I'm at the top of my class easily. Not all of us had the same opportunities or upbringings as everyone else, I really wish that people would stop assuming that the playing field was the same for all of us. Kudos to those who could make it to MD school from a background like mine (on which I will not go into detail here) but it is not because I am less capable or smart than an MD student at a top school. It simply means that I did not have my s**t together as readily as they did.

 

[SurgDoc95]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

So was mine (minus the downward trend). Doesn’t make you more qualified than me or many other DO students to get into a residency based off what we accomplish AFTER undergrad. Get off your high horse.


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[Gray Fox]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

Good gravy tomato can...the pomposity of this post brought me out of my 5 year SDN slumber. Clearly, you got lucky buddy, and this is coming from a fellow MD who is very competitive for the Match. You got lucky as hell to get into a top 20 school with a subpar GPA, and now you gotta be a total dingus about it.

Yes, there is a LOT OF LUCK that goes into this process. Lots of hard work. Lots of blood, sweat, and tears. Lots of connections from mommy and daddy (yeah, I've seen it, it sucks), and sometimes lots of money (big donors). Like one poster mentioned, life isn't fair. Medicine is extremely unforgiving to nontraditional applicants or applicants who didn't know medicine was for them until later on. It's definitely a broken system. It pisses me off.

I definitely respect my DO colleagues who chose their school for personal, family reasons. Mad respect. I would've done the same.

That being said, I have many DO friends who complain to me about the piss poor quality of their clinical rotations, and a few even about their AOA residencies! As a med student, if you rotate at a reputable academic medical center that trains residents, a PD can have a sense of what your training was like. Until DO schools have more strict guidelines on where their 3rd year students are trained and the overall quality of their preceptors as teachers, I think it's fair for PDs to be suspicious.

Also, I don't think OMM makes you (as a DO applicant) or should make you any more competitive, capable, or better than MD applicants without OMM training. It's not evidence-based (I don't care about your anecdotal evidence), and my DO friends have told me some wonky things about it. If OMM were evidence-based and made you a better doctor, I assure you every MD student would do it, and every PD would require it.

And as an EM candidate who has interviewed at over a dozen top tier EM programs, I've met only 2 DO students. I befriended them and learned they did a gap year, during which they got an extra degree and/or did a crap ton of high quality research. I also personally know a DO at a very competitive, top tier EM program. She didn't get there by impressing faculty with her OMM knowledge. She obliterated the Steps and absolutely crushed her sub-internships at ivory tower away rotations, and she had high quality research. Yeah, she had to work harder than her MD peers, but it paid off in spades. Not saying it's fair--just want to share a glimpse into what it takes.

The prestige bias is super real and will never go away. It's human nature. Therefore, the sooner we can become one degree (no more separate and unequal), unionize, and gain greater national influence and representation, the better. The merger is the first step to that.

I will slowly return to my crypt soon.

 

[deleted831695]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

And I had a 3.6+ from a tough undergrad. And I likely have a better research profile as well.

Stop being an insufferable troll.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Good gravy tomato can...the pomposity of this post brought me out of my 5 year SDN slumber. Clearly, you got lucky buddy, and this is coming from a fellow MD who is very competitive for the Match. You got lucky as hell to get into a top 20 school with a subpar GPA, and now you gotta be a total dingus about it.

Yes, there is a LOT OF LUCK that goes into this process. Lots of hard work. Lots of blood, sweat, and tears. Lots of connections from mommy and daddy (yeah, I've seen it, it sucks), and sometimes lots of money (big donors). Like one poster mentioned, life isn't fair. Medicine is extremely unforgiving to nontraditional applicants or applicants who didn't know medicine was for them until later on. It's definitely a broken system. It pisses me off.

I definitely respect my DO colleagues who chose their school for personal, family reasons. Mad respect. I would've done the same.

That being said, I have many DO friends who complain to me about the piss poor quality of their clinical rotations, and a few even about their AOA residencies! As a med student, if you rotate at a reputable academic medical center that trains residents, a PD can have a sense of what your training was like. Until DO schools have more strict guidelines on where their 3rd year students are trained and the overall quality of their preceptors as teachers, I think it's fair for PDs to be suspicious.

Also, I don't think OMM makes you (as a DO applicant) or should make you any more competitive, capable, or better than MD applicants without OMM training. It's not evidence-based (I don't care about your anecdotal evidence), and my DO friends have told me some wonky things about it. If OMM were evidence-based and made you a better doctor, I assure you every MD student would do it, and every PD would require it.

And as an EM candidate who has interviewed at over a dozen top tier EM programs, I've met only 2 DO students. I befriended them and learned they did a gap year, during which they got an extra degree and/or did a crap ton of high quality research. I also personally know a DO at a very competitive, top tier EM program. She didn't get there by impressing faculty with her OMM knowledge. She obliterated the Steps and absolutely crushed her sub-internships at ivory tower away rotations, and she had high quality research. Yeah, she had to work harder than her MD peers, but it paid off in spades. Not saying it's fair--just want to share a glimpse into what it takes.

The prestige bias is super real and will never go away. It's human nature. Therefore, the sooner we can become one degree (no more separate and unequal), unionize, and gain greater national influence and representation, the better. The merger is the first step to that.

I will slowly return to my crypt soon.

This is a very reasonable post, and well-stated. I did not mean to imply that omm made me better than an MD because I see us all as equal, regardless of the degree. Equal in the eyes of the law and to almost every patient. I was simply replying to the earlier assertion that DOs are good at primary care because of our "holistic" education. My point was that the only difference in what we're required to learn is omm, not that we learn to "treat the patient not the disease" and that MDs are trained to only care about treating disease as was implied by a previous poster. I was saying that in omm class, regardless of whether or not you use the techniques themselves, you learn a lot about physiologic motion of different joints as well as a bunch of extra time on how the msk anatomy fits together, knowledge that lends itself well to msk-based specialties. I think we all have friends at both types of medical school and perhaps even mentors on both sides and we know that the degree type doesn't make the doctor good or bad. I also agree with you that we need COCA to ensure that DO schools have adequate rotations and I also agree with you that we should bond together as physicians in order to offer patients the best treatment available and to ensure that our profession is not encroached upon by mid level providers who truly do have inferior training than we do. I'm not smack talking them either, I think they have a role to play in healthcare, but they do need to know their limitations.

 

[NurWollen]

And assuming that every DO student couldn’t get into an MD school. That’s ignoring a lot of people. Myself and several of my classmates had tons of options and picked our school for myriad good reasons.

Agreed. It's hard to believe from reading SDN, but some people really love OMM. I'm not one of them, but I had med school classmates who were, and some of them were top 10% of the class.

Location is a big factor too. Being close to family is huge for some people. Also, it's state dependent. There are tons of brilliant people with impressive GPAs and MCAT scores whose only black mark was being from California. They likely could have gotten in to a state MD program in many other states.

Speaking of MCAT, lol. I can't believe people actually think performance on that test 4 years before applying to residency should have any bearing on their competitiveness for residency.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[deleted407021]

My undergrad GPA was 3.6 with a downward trend. It did not stop me from getting into a top 20 school. Not URM.

 

[deleted407021]

Agreed. It's hard to believe from reading SDN, but some people really love OMM. I'm not one of them, but I had med school classmates who were, and some of them were top 10% of the class.

Location is a big factor too. Being close to family is huge for some people. Also, it's state dependent. There are tons of brilliant people with impressive GPAs and MCAT scores whose only black mark was being from California. They likely could have gotten in to a state MD program in many other states.

Speaking of MCAT, lol. I can't believe people actually think performance on that test 4 years before applying to residency should have any bearing on their competitiveness for residency.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Yep, top 5 student in my class is trying to go into OMM. I’m like, more power to you lol

I feel like we’re slowly whittling down to how DocMcfluffkins really feels about DOs

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Yep, top 5 student in my class is trying to go into OMM. I’m like, more power to you lol

I feel like we’re slowly whittling down to how DocMcfluffkins really feels about DOs

I am unsure why my brief post brought out so many personal attacks (against TOS, BTW) and angry posts.

I got in to a good school despite low GPA thanks to a 39+ MCAT score, which translated into a 260+ step score and 600 plus score on the radiology core exam.

Folks with low GPA and high MCAT can get into MD schools as well. Plenty of my classmates were nontrad and were not rich. Plenty were first docs in their family.

I am not sure if getting into MD school is as much of a crapshoot as people make it out here.

 

[deleted407021]

I am unsure why my brief post brought out so many personal attacks (against TOS, BTW) and angry posts.

I got in to a good school despite low GPA thanks to a 39+ MCAT score, which translated into a 260+ step score and 600 plus score on the radiology core exam.

I don’t see any personal attacks. I’m sure you can work out why people didn’t appreciate your post.

 

[deleted831695]

I am unsure why my brief post brought out so many personal attacks (against TOS, BTW) and angry posts. I got in to a good school despite low GPA thanks to a 39+ MCAT score, which translated into a 260+ step score and 600 plus score on the radiology core exam.

Rather surprising that despite having those scores, you can't seem to figure out why.

Everyone has caught on to your act. Don't you have anything better to do than troll in a DO subforum thread?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I don’t see any personal attacks. I’m sure you can work out why people didn’t appreciate your post.

Well for starters I am DrfluffyMD, not mcfluffykin.

Rather surprising that despite having those scores, you can't seem to figure out why.

Everyone has caught on to your act. Don't you have anything better to do than troll in a DO subforum thread?

I am well aware why my statements may not be well recieved. Providing a different opinion that is congrugent with facts (such as NRMP match outcome data) is not trolling.

If mod want this forum to be an echo chamber, I am more than happy to stop posting on this thread.

 

[deleted407021]

Well for starters I am DrfluffyMD, not mcfluffykin.


I am well aware why my statements may not be well recieved. Providing a different opinion that is congrugent with facts (such as NRMP match outcome data) is not trolling.

If mod want this forum to be an echo chamber, I am more than happy to stop posting on this thread.

You were coming across as big headed. Everyone picked up on it. I thought my little nickname was a cute way of bringing you down a peg or two. Didn’t intend it to be a personal attack. Figured it wasn’t that strong a statement. Regardless, I apologize if I hurt your feelings, doc.

I don’t want to derail.

 

[68PGunner]

So we are back to square one. I personally think the DO difference is the unique approach to primary care.

Rather than being “pigeon holed”, I readily admit that a DO can make a better primary care doc than me due to their training.

It’s like what I said earlier in the thread. If you sign up for a rural primary care tract at Dartmouth you shouldn’t expect to have the same match outcome as the guy who’s doing physician scientist tract.

And lastly, what’s wrong with primary care? Specialization have their own downsides that are not readily appearent to premed and med students.

When is this? I wasn’t aware that I was signing up for a PCP contract. I do vaguely remember that matching into the 5-6 most competitive specialties would be tough as a DO. I respect your opinion, but I seriously think that you’re just trolling for shirts and giggles at this point. Come on, doc. You’re better than this.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

When is this? I wasn’t aware that I was signing up for a PCP contract. I do vaguely remember that matching into the 5-6 most competitive specialties would be tough as a DO. I respect your opinion, but I seriously think that you’re just trolling for shirts and giggles at this point. Come on, doc. You’re better than this.

My analogy is a figure of speech. We all know that AOA like to place emphasis on primary care and many school have PMD shortage in their mission statement.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Blaming external factors like PD bias or prestige whoring only perpetuate the status quo that the vast majority of DO student posters are dissatisfied with. First step to change is admitting that there is in fact a problem. We go to inferior schools that don’t train us the way that PDs want us to be trained.

Is it blown way out of proportion on SDN sometimes? Yes. Is it a real problem that our 3rd year clinical education needs improved? YES!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Blaming external factors like PD bias or prestige whoring only perpetuate the status quo that the vast majority of DO student posters are dissatisfied with. First step to change is admitting that there is in fact a problem. We go to inferior schools that don’t train us the way that PDs want us to be trained.

Is it blown way out of proportion on SDN sometimes? Yes. Is it a real problem that our 3rd year clinical education needs improved? YES!

I agree.

You are right that some PDs don't want DOs and that while there is bias at some places, much of this isn't bias at all.

From my experience with DO residents, I have found that the clinical education is very unstandardized. Some schools have their own hospital while others send their students off into the wind to do rotations at tiny hospitals/practices not set up for education. When one compares the clinical education between different MDs, they are nearly indistinguishable. A PD has to hope that a given DO student won the lottery and was able to get a strong clinical education while they don't have the same kind of worry with MD students.

A few years ago I met a former DO student (who was a resident at a strong mid-tier program) who told me prior to residency, he didn't have a single inpatient rotation in medical school! His transition was a very rough one. Many other DO residents discussed how they never had rotations with residents!

Why would a PD choose these students when they basically have to remediate some of them. Is that bias or is it rather reasonable caution? Depends on which side of the fence you fall on i guess...