Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

[Neopolymath]

Increase in competition/congestion across the board (as has been claimed) means more people unmatched though. How could it not?

Does it though? It could mean these people go into primary care and then you wouldn't see it in the matched percentages for their real intended specialities. It could also mean that applicants aren't getting as many interviews as in the past but still managing to match. The subforums and spreadsheets are there for you to look at. The trend appears to be turning bimodal. People at the top are getting tons of interviews and keeping them all and others are not getting as many as would be predicted in fields like radiology especially.

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[GUH]

As an osteopathic grad in an ACGME residency program (for 7 more months anyway), let me say, you are wrong in your assumptions here. Yet another person affected by the doom and gloom, hand-wringing crowd on SDN.

EM and OB are seemingly becoming more popular fields these past few years, but some other traditionally competitive fields are becoming less so. Examples: Anesthesia, Rads.

Thing is, you can’t focus on only two fields and surmise that the rest of the fields are experiencing a similar increase in popularity; and then extrapolate that residency is becoming significantly harder to obtain as a DO. The fact of the matter is that the opposite is true.

In the future, instead of making things up, look at the data. The past few years, as EM and OB have become more popular, record high match-rates for DO applicants have been occurring. This data seemingly flies directly in the face of what you’re saying here.

Sources:
2017 AOA and NRMP Match Results Show Record Growth Among Osteopathic Graduates


Press Release: Results of 2016 NRMP Main Residency Match Largest on Record as Match Continues to Grow - The Match, National Resident Matching Program


http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf


http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

Those increases are occurring in the context of the elimination or conversion of AOA programs.

 

[SLC]

Those increases are occurring in the context of the elimination or conversion of AOA programs.

These increases have been happening since before the AOA-ACGME merger was ever a thing.

I posted data from 2014 onward, but the trend goes back even further than that. It was 2011 before I found a match rate that hadn’t been a 30+ year record.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

There is no point arguing this anymore. People have their thoughts and they will interpret data to match their own perspective/theory.
We will see in a couple of years whose prediction is most accurate.

 

[Cath Up]

There is no point arguing this anymore. People have their thoughts and they will interpret data to match their own perspective/theory.
We will see in a couple of years whose prediction is most accurate.

Great. I will reconvene this thread to determine accuracy of DO residency match trend predictions following the 2021 match.

 

[deleted831695]

Great. I will reconvene this thread to determine accuracy of DO residency match trend predictions following the 2021 match.

Don't worry we'll have ten billion threads once the post-merger match lists come out, and all the 'analysis' you can ever imagine.

 

[NurWollen]

Don't worry we'll have ten billion threads once the post-merger match lists come out, and all the 'analysis' you can ever imagine.

It's gonna be a great time for SDN. Excitement we haven't seen since November 2012.

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[QueenJames]

It's gonna be a great time for SDN. Excitement we haven't seen since November 2012.

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Gonna make SDN great again!

lolz

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If DO schools had similar MCAT ranges, and no grade replacement this wouldn’t even be an issue.

Wanna bet? There are a good number of DO schools with MCAT averages on the same level as low tier MD schools, some higher. It literally has nothing to do with it. Oh and DO schools no longer do grade replacement.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Why though? You chose to go to a school with lower standards. You aren’t entitled to equality, but rather the pursuit of it. If DO schools had similar MCAT ranges, and no grade replacement this wouldn’t even be an issue.

This feels like a post I would have read back into 2010....

Its not like the quality level between MD schools is very similar. And the difference between the worst MD schools and the best DO schools isn't that great either.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Why though? You chose to go to a school with lower standards. You aren’t entitled to equality, but rather the pursuit of it. If DO schools had similar MCAT ranges, and no grade replacement this wouldn’t even be an issue.

Ah so if you and I both score a 245 on step 1 with the exact same application hypothetically, you should get preferential treatment because you went to a school with “higher standards”? Spare me.


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[Neopolymath]

Ah so if you and I both score a 245 on step 1 with the exact same application hypothetically, you should get preferential treatment because you went to a school with “higher standards”? Spare me.


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But he spent his third year rotations at a teaching hospital standing behind 14 faculty and calling outside hospitals for records all day and you spent it with a family medicine doctor in a town of 400 so the MD is obviously the better applicant LOL!!! For the record, I think DO school clinical rotations are a joke from what I've seen/heard, but the idea that they are so different than MD ones does get comical at times. I have to wonder if the rotations truly change anything if you remove the obvious outlier experiences at both ends of the spectrum? The only response people ever say about why MD rotations are better is the "the student learns how to function in a residency team blah blah blah" I'm guessing a guy with a 250 who was good enough to get letters/ good evals is a guy who is book smart and emotionally intelligent enough to work in a team. It's not like a skill that is hard to learn. Most people learn it at 7 years old playing in the yard with their neighbors. Maybe I think this because I didn't go straight into school and had a real job/responsiblities?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The reality for pre med remains that unless they are interested in primary care or manipulative medicine, there really isn’t a good reason to chose over DO over MD.

On average, DO schools are in less desirable locations and/or much more expensive than MD schools.

 

[Neopolymath]

The reality for pre med remains that unless they are interested in primary care or manipulative medicine, there really isn’t a good reason to chose over DO over MD.

On average, DO schools are in less desirable locations and/or much more expensive than MD schools.

You say this like people actively choose to become DO's instead of MD's. You go to the schools that accept you. You can't just try harder next year and get into an MD school if you tanked your GPA sophomore year of college for example. Ask me how I know lol. The mcat was a joke considering all the lore surrounding it but it is something someone can fix unlike your gpa.

 

[Neopolymath]

Frankly, yes, because the Applicant who went to the MD school has the more consistent academic record and I don’t see that as a problem.

Regarding everyone talking about lower tier MD vs. DO, I think that the upper tier MD v lower tier MD weightage when it comes to residency applications is already wide enough so it’s not like those MD students get any advantage over DO applicants. Also show me a DO school with MCAT ranges of 28-36 (10th and 90th) with a median of 32 which is what’s present at low tier MD schools when I applied....I went to my MD school knowing full well it may close doors or be a steep hill to climb if I wanted to do residency at a premiere academic center. I don’t see why those who go DO are not willing to accept their equivalent to that. If that was the case, they should have taken a year or two off and gone MD.

Where do we draw the line? I think how someone did in college is pretty irrelevant to judging their medical school performance using step 1 scores (which in his example are equal) and it's just so far in the past come time to apply for residency. It kind of says a person can't change when the high step 1 score proving that they can change since college is right in someone's face. I don't buy that, on average, variances between schools are big enough to say that a great student at school A will be better than a great student at school B.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Frankly, yes, because the Applicant who went to the MD school has the more consistent academic record and I don’t see that as a problem.

Regarding everyone talking about lower tier MD vs. DO, I think that the upper tier MD v lower tier MD weightage when it comes to residency applications is already wide enough so it’s not like those MD students get any advantage over DO applicants. Also show me a DO school with MCAT ranges of 28-36 (10th and 90th) with a median of 32 which is what’s present at low tier MD schools when I applied....I went to my MD school knowing full well it may close doors or be a steep hill to climb if I wanted to do residency at a premiere academic center. I don’t see why those who go DO are not willing to accept their equivalent to that. If that was the case, they should have taken a year or two off and gone MD.

Look I’m not arguing what the reality is for DO students interested in non PCP specialties. We all for the most part understand that. With that being said however, go ahead and can your “consistent academic record” crap. So what if you’re entrance stats were higher? All those two do is get your foot in the door. It should be about what you’re able to accomplish in your time as a medical student. Sorry, but you getting 4-5 more As in undergrad than me doesn’t make you more qualified than for residency X if we had the same scores when it counted in medical school.


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[68PGunner]

Maybe I’m old-fashioned but I think the undergraduate record should count for something.

I think it’s time to pimp our HS grades while we are at it.

Yes it does because those few more A’s aren’t what prevented you from getting into an MD school. You could have reapplied if you wanted, but you chose a quicker path. One draws the line when he or she chooses to attend a DO school. As for the consistent academic record, it should absolutely count in a holistic application process when your goal is the pick the applicants with the most potential. Just to pile more on, my friend’s top-ranked DO school doesn’t even use shelf exams as a determination of honors for third year. All you have to do is become buddy-buddy with the residents and you get Honors so there’s really no stress all of third year. That must be nice. Name me any MD school that does that. Until that, medical school admission standards, and other things (which I admittedly think mean less) like different rotations gets fixed, I think it’s quite fair for MD students to receive partial treatment with the same Step 1 score.

First of all, there’s no such thing as a top ranked DO school. Lastly, honor for each third year rotation for my school is based on a shelf exam and eval from the site. I go to a DO attached to a teaching hospital, so it might be different for others.

 

[SLC]

On average, DO schools are in less desirable locations and/or much more expensive than MD schools.

This is a lie: DO schools on average cost the same as private MD schools. That’s because most of them are private. The state DO schools are very affordable actually.

And DO schools in NYC, Philly, Miami, Tampa, Southern Utah (less than an hour from the National parks), Dallas, Chicago, Michigan State U, Denver, SoCal, SF Bay Area, Phoenix, Western-Oregon...they all sort of fly in the face of your “less desirable locations” notion. There are some in rural areas and places that aren’t destination cities, but there are plenty of MD schools like that too.

This is just getting ridiculous and frankly a bit silly. Can’t you keep the argument on a point that actually has anything to do with a medical student’s outlook for career development?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

This is a lie: DO schools on average cost the same as private MD schools. That’s because most of them are private. The state DO schools are very affordable actually.

And DO schools in NYC, Philly, Miami, Tampa, Southern Utah (less than an hour from the National parks), Dallas, Chicago, Michigan State U, Denver, SoCal, Phoenix, Western-Oregon all sort of fly in the face of your “less desirable locations” notion. There are some in rural areas and places that aren’t destination cities, but there are plenty of MD schools like that too.

This is just getting ridiculous. Can’t you keep the argument on a point that actually has anything to do with a medical student’s outlook for career development?

Let’s see: touro NY is sitting a top of a shopping mall in Harlam. Western is inland. They maybe in a “desirable location” but people who are able to go to places like UCLA or NYU probably wouldn’t.

What is ridiculous is try to completey discard the importance of one’s achievement. The past predicts the future and folks with more As and researches on the average, are better students.

There is nothing wrong with DO school like there is nothing wrong with getting a few less As or lower step score.

But a similar step score absolutey doss not prove equivalency of training between two students and training at teritary care centers owned by some Allo schools absolutey makes a difference.

 

[SLC]

Let’s see: touro NY is sitting a top of a shopping mall in Harlam. Western is inland. They maybe in a “desirable location” but people who are able to go to places like UCLA or NYU probably wouldn’t.

What is ridiculous is try to completey discard the importance of one’s achievement. The past predicts the future and folks with more As and researches on the average, are better students.

There is nothing wrong with DO school like there is nothing wrong with getting a few less As or lower step score.

But a similar step score absolutey doss not prove equivalency of training between two students and training at teritary care centers owned by some Allo schools absolutey makes a difference.

Oh I see, the actual physical location of the school matters. I didn’t realize the structure of the buildings and their GPS coordinates played such a large role. (Do you even read what you write?)

As to your last point, 2.7 years of residency among MD’s who trained in tertiary care centers, and DO’s who trained like I did, says (to me) that your point is overblown at best. There are way more similarities than there are differences. And the differences are easily down to each individual person rather than their medical school credentials and where they did their rotations. I’ve seen folks from big name Boston and NYC schools struggle in residency just as much or more than people from NYCOM or VCOM.

I’d like to see some objective measure that shows your point to be true, otherwise you’d do well to preface that statement with “in my opinion” when you give it.

This topic just took a turn to the (abnormally) absurd. So I’ll bow out, unless anyone wants to discuss the original premise of the thread again.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Oh I see, the actual physical location of the school matters. I didn’t realize the structure of the buildings and their GPS coordinates played such a large role. (Do you even read what you write?)

As to your last point, 2.7 years of residency among MD’s who trained in tertiary care centers, and DO’s who trained like I did, says (to me) that your point is overblown at best. There are way more similarities than there are differences. And the differences are easily down to each individual person rather than their medical school credentials and where they did their rotations. I’ve seen folks from big name Boston and NYC schools struggle in residency just as much or more than people from NYCOM or VCOM.

I’d like to see some objective measure that shows your point to be true, otherwise you’d do well to preface that statement with “in my opinion” when you give it.

This topic just took a turn to the (abnormally) absurd. So I’ll bow out, unless anyone wants to discuss the original premise of the thread again.

Yes, it matters. There are residents who chose NYU over Columbia due to its location in the city.

And as far as CV goes, at the very top of the equation, for things like IR or ortho, every little thing matters. You can head over to the EM forum where the white coat investor himself wrote about how he only recruit from a handful of residencies BECAUSE he can. And also because he is familiar with people from top residencies where he trained, who can provide recommendations for the candidates.

The residency match is similar. Just because one has similar step score (which doesn’t really correlate with clinical ability), they are not automatically entitled to a top spot.

If Stanford IR only recruit from Stanford or a MGH website says “MD candidate please”, that’s entirely within their right to do so. They have more applicants than they have and they can pick candidates the way they like.

Lastly, specifically for your point, SLC. I don’t know where you are training, but a lot of DOs who end up in academic centers end up in a midtier.

I’ve seen this situation first hand, specifically, a mid tier teritary care center program (say, places like U of Iowa) where they are considered to be some of the best attainable by DOs but will struggle to recruit people from big name school.

As a result, you are comparing some of the worst grads of big name MD schools with some of the best DO grads. It’s just the fact of the life that ironically, mid tier academic programs are often where the worst of Harvard med student and best of DO grads get to meet, because the majority of those two camps don’t intersect in residency.

EDIT: going through your old post, it seems like you soaped into a program in 2015. In my personal experience being a student from a top 15 school, only our worst students end up in programs that ended up having to SOAP. Those programs can be very fine academic programs, but most Harvard or Columbia grads are going to stick around Harvard or Columbia. HMS grads who had to go to U of Oklahoma and the like and who aren’t from there usually have red flags. It isn’t fair to compare those candidates to DO grads who must have been excellent candidates to match at those programs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

so it’s not like those MD students get any advantage over DO applicants

Lol, I’ll say this again: wanna bet? Someone with from Dexel is going to be given much more advantage than someone from PCOM. You can’t really tell me that the two schools are really that different, and honestly PCOM is probably better run.

Frankly, yes, because the Applicant who went to the MD school has the more consistent academic record and I don’t see that as a problem.

Not always true, and becoming less and less so as time goes on. I come from a state that is brutal for in state applicants and we only have one MD school. We provide a ton of Osteopathic students every year and most of them are at minimum 3.6/30 applicants.

Yes it does because those few more A’s aren’t what prevented you from getting into an MD school. You could have reapplied if you wanted, but you chose a quicker path.

You are so out of touch with the reality of MD admissions. I personally know 3 people with 3.8+ AND 33+ MCATs who went to DO schools because they got no love on the MD side.

while I highly doubt a single MD-accredited school would have such a policy.

Wanna bet? There are a number of MD schools with policies just like DO schools, but we don’t like to talk about those because it ruins the illusion that all MD schools will inherently train students better.

Also FYI all medical students rotate at a teaching hospital by definition.

Not really.

and training at teritary care centers owned by some Allo schools absolutey makes a difference.

Lol, let’s not pretend that every MD student trains at a tertiary care center.

 

[SurgDoc95]

-They already are. It’s called the prestige of undergrad institution. My top choice in-State MD school only accepted 3 students from my class from my large undergrad lower, but still 70th ranked research institution while it accepted applicants in droves from the UCs, Ivies, own school, etc. What do you think that was ultimately based on?
-Well it’s on USNews and that’s how MD schools are inevitably perceived.
-While that’s great, it’s different at at least one established DO school while I highly doubt a single MD-accredited school would have such a policy.

I’ve tried to make my point and if no one sees it, I’m not going to go further. I’m just trying to be real.

—-
Also FYI all medical students rotate at a teaching hospital by definition.

I sincerely hope you have to work under one these “inferiorly trained” DOs when you graduate and you can tell them how much better you are because of your undergraduate stats


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[DrMcLovin]

After reading your posts it seems like you’re in danger of floating away if your head gets any bigger. You might want to come back down to earth. When you are done with residency and exit your ivory tower you will have to work with all of us who at best trained in a mid-tier academic center for residency.

Yes, it matters. There are residents who chose NYU over Columbia due to its location in the city.

And as far as CV goes, at the very top of the equation, for things like IR or ortho, every little thing matters. You can head over to the EM forum where the white coat investor himself wrote about how he only recruit from a handful of residencies BECAUSE he can. And also because he is familiar with people from top residencies where he trained, who can provide recommendations for the candidates.

The residency match is similar. Just because one has similar step score (which doesn’t really correlate with clinical ability), they are not automatically entitled to a top spot.

If Stanford IR only recruit from Stanford or a MGH website says “MD candidate please”, that’s entirely within their right to do so. They have more applicants than they have and they can pick candidates the way they like.

Lastly, specifically for your point, SLC. I don’t know where you are training, but a lot of DOs who end up in academic centers end up in a midtier.

I’ve seen this situation first hand, specifically, a mid tier teritary care center program (say, places like U of Iowa) where they are considered to be some of the best attainable by DOs but will struggle to recruit people from big name school.

As a result, you are comparing some of the worst grads of big name MD schools with some of the best DO grads. It’s just the fact of the life that ironically, mid tier academic programs are often where the worst of Harvard med student and best of DO grads get to meet, because the majority of those two camps don’t intersect in residency.

EDIT: going through your old post, it seems like you soaped into a program in 2015. In my personal experience being a student from a top 15 school, only our worst students end up in programs that ended up having to SOAP. Those programs can be very fine academic programs, but most Harvard or Columbia grads are going to stick around Harvard or Columbia. HMS grads who had to go to U of Oklahoma and the like and who aren’t from there usually have red flags. It isn’t fair to compare those candidates to DO grads who must have been excellent candidates to match at those programs.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

After reading your posts it seems like you’re in danger of floating away if your head gets any bigger. You might want to come back down to earth. When you are done with residency and exit your ivory tower you will have to work with all of us who at best trained in a mid-tier academic center for residency.

I actually work in a community hospital and one of my best friend is a DO. I am one of those guys who went to a top med school but ended up in a mid tier place due to taking a personal LOA year out to take care of my ill family members, constituting a red flag

If you read my post, I never tried to attack anyone. I merely point out that DO grads have to work harder to achieve what USMD grads achieve and many DO school charges excessive tuition for the quality of education they provide.

 

[deleted831695]

Frankly, yes, because the Applicant who went to the MD school has the more consistent academic record and I don’t see that as a problem.

Regarding everyone talking about lower tier MD vs. DO, I think that the upper tier MD v lower tier MD weightage when it comes to residency applications is already wide enough so it’s not like those MD students get any advantage over DO applicants. Also show me a DO school with MCAT ranges of 28-36 (10th and 90th) with a median of 32 which is what’s present at low tier MD schools when I applied....I went to my MD school knowing full well it may close doors or be a steep hill to climb if I wanted to do residency at a premiere academic center. I don’t see why those who go DO are not willing to accept their equivalent to that. If that was the case, they should have taken a year or two off and gone MD.

Maybe I’m old-fashioned but I think the undergraduate record should count for something.

Yes it does because those few more A’s aren’t what prevented you from getting into an MD school. You could have reapplied if you wanted, but you chose a quicker path. One draws the line when he or she chooses to attend a DO school. As for the consistent academic record, it should absolutely count in a holistic application process when your goal is the pick the applicants with the most potential. Just to pile more on, my friend’s “top-ranked DO school” doesn’t even use shelf exams as a determination of honors for third year. All you have to do is become buddy-buddies with the residents or do rotations with people who have you write your own evals and you get Honors so there’s really no stress all of third year. That must be nice. Name me any MD school that does that. Until that, medical school admission standards, and other things (which I admittedly think mean less) like different rotations gets fixed, I think it’s quite fair for MD students to receive partial treatment with the same Step 1 score.

Lmao, get off your high horse.

The reality for pre med remains that unless they are interested in primary care or manipulative medicine, there really isn’t a good reason to chose over DO over MD.

Or y'know, you have a cheaper state school. Or you have a loved one not in the best of health, and you want to be as close to them as possible. Smh.

 

[68PGunner]

So... I'm getting that I need to brush up my skills on fetching coffee and making sandwiches in preparation for our MD overlords down the future. Is that all?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

and many DO school charges excessive tuition for the quality of education they provide.

Lol, so do every MD school outside the state of Texas.

 

[deleted831695]

So... I'm getting that I need to brush up my skills on fetching coffee and making sandwiches in preparation for our MD overlords down the future. Is that all?

Doesn't sound too bad to me. More time to flirt with the hot nurses/medical assistants while the MDs are saving lives thanks to their superb undergraduate GPAs.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I don’t know why everyone’s liking this post. You seem like a person and I’m sure you are just as smart as me if not more regardless of the degree you hold, but you didn’t do a good job countering any of my points.

Since you give anecdotal evidence, I can too. I had a 71+ LizzyM and received acceptances to multiple state, private, and OOS public schools as an ORM without a story. One the other hand, the 4 DOs I know had 26-28 mcats or low 500s and they were shoo-ins (3.6+). I’ll buy the instate DO thing for some states as 3.6/30. Fine. I’ll confidently bet no MD school has a system where 3rd year grades are not determined at least somewhat by their shelf exam. I just gave you one supposedly well-known DO school that doesn’t. Give me any one MD school that doesn’t use shelf exams in 3rd year. ***correction, apparently psychiatry is the only shelf they can honor***So every program will say that they’re affiliated with a teaching hospital because it sounds good. What a teaching hospital is according to Wikipedia is a school affiliated with a medical school so shouldn’t all DO students rotate at hospitals their school is affiliated with? The point the phrase teaching hospital adds nothing. Also, which MD program doesn’t have a tertiary referall center. The only place I was not at a tertiary center was when I did Family and I’m not from the best MD school out there.

Sounds a bit like MSU...

It is kind of an odd system. We don't do pass/HP/honors at all except for psych since we take the MD shelf exam (other rotations have 'COMAT' exams with required cutoffs). Every other rotation is graded on a below expectations/meets expectations/exceeds expectations scale for clinical and professional skills. And you're right, COMAT scores count for nothing unless you fail (but this is certainly different than a few years back where there weren't even required cutoffs).

Not saying I like or dislike the system, it's just different. I find most of the meat from rotations is in the comments from attendings who know you well. Haven't had anyone on interviews comment about absolutely anything related to clerkship evals/my MSPE at this time, though.

 

[Redpancreas]

Sounds a bit like MSU...

It is kind of an odd system. We don't do pass/HP/honors at all except for psych since we take the MD shelf exam (other rotations have 'COMAT' exams with required cutoffs). Every other rotation is graded on a below expectations/meets expectations/exceeds expectations scale for clinical and professional skills. And nope, COMAT scores count for nothing except if you fail (but this is certainly different than a few years back where there weren't even required cutoffs).

Not saying I like or dislike the system, it's just different. I find most of the meat from rotations is in the comments from attendings who know you well. Haven't had anyone on interviews comment about absolutely anything related to clerkships/my MSPE at this time, though.

And don’t you think that’s a big issue? For the DO students with equivalent/better than average abilities , I’d imagine it’s an opportunity lost? By the same token, for the poor DO students, it’s very easy to coast with less medical knowledge and cramming for CK. Not the best system in my opinion and I’ve heard this is the best DO school out there.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

And don’t you think that’s a big issue? For the DO students who can do just as well, I’d imagine it’s an opportunity lost? By the same token, for the poor DO students, it’s very easy to Coast with no medical knowledge in this system. GO GREEN!

I'm of two minds. Yes, I like the thought of being able to say I 'honored' x, y, or z (saying I "exceeded expectations in professionalism" on my rotation doesn't quite have the same ring, now does it?) with that being a standard meaning of "I aced my shelf, had great evals, etc". But I'm also not sure if pass/HP/honors is really an opportunity lost. Again, it's never been brought up on my interviews yet they still know I have a solid foundation in my clinical rotations; I feel like most program directors barely even skim the MSPE since they know it's coded, contrived, fluffed, standardized dean-speak. Sure there's some stuff to be gleaned from it but board scores, letters, and your ERAS CV hold a lot of discriminating information.

I definitely think that our COMAT/shelf exams are a good predictor of medical knowledge gained in a discipline and a good predictor of Step 2 performance. I certainly think there should be motivation to do well on these exams but I'm not sure whether that should be more intrinsic or extrinsic. On a relevant point for this thread, of course I'm all for standardizing MD and DO education as much as possible -- if there were good evidence out there that a pass/HP/honors system is superior for whatever reason I would certainly support implementing it (and including shelf/COMAT scores as a component). Are requirements for pass/HP/honors even standardized among MD schools, though?

Maybe didn't answer your question since I went off on a few tangents, but those are my thoughts anyhow.

Go Blue! (jk, I can throw a "Go White!" your way as well).

 

[Cath Up]

The reality for pre med remains that unless they are interested in primary care or manipulative medicine, there really isn’t a good reason to chose over DO over MD.

I think there is an excellent reason in going DO to secure the certainty of becoming a physician. Humans hate uncertainty, and as competitiveness for both MD and DO increases, so does uncertainty of earning that guarantee (which matriculation provides, for the most part).

I looked at the charting outcomes yesterday- while almost universally lower across the board compared to MDs, it can still be said that most DOs that applied NMRP matched at reasonable rates to >50% of specialties. My point being that if you decide to go DO, you are achieving something that people are unfairly kept from achieving every year (strong applicants get overlooked) and have guaranteed yourself the ability to work as a physician. Further, you have a strong chance of working in a variety of specialties if you choose. If you perform well in school and are above average, you have a very strong chance. Yes, you will probably be locked out of very competitive specialties. DO closes some doors in this era.

Maybe you assume most people want things out of medicine that they do not actually want, or maybe I make that assumption. But I don't see the majority of physicians going into academic medicine (where prestige/high stats are truly important) or having their stats/DO-ness impact job prospects in the majority of markets. I also think that most people are okay being outside of hypercompetitive specialties, despite the fact that many would like to work in them if available.

And as I recall, what WCI seeks are docs that can work well in the community and are otherwise very knowledgeable docs (he also seemed to imply that academic EM residencies are less customer-service oriented)- he has found some residencies that supply him with that. But that is an anecdote that might not be super prevalent- I have read many more threads saying job prospects (outside of academia) are identical because there is so much demand.

On average, DO schools are in less desirable locations and/or much more expensive than MD schools.

I think others have addressed this already, but as far as I have been able to tell this statement on its own is patently false. I don't know why you believe this. Is it because there are MD state schools that are cheap? Because there are some of those in the DO world. It is also insanely expensive to attend some state MD schools as an out of state matriculant. Otherwise, I would place money on average MD vs DO tuition being within ~5k/year.

I do consistently enjoy reading your contributions to the forums.

 

[DocFluffy]

We all know the MD's want in on the DO residencies so they can get in on them OMM secrets

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I think there is an excellent reason in going DO to secure the certainty of becoming a physician. Humans hate uncertainty, and as competitiveness for both MD and DO increases, so does uncertainty of earning that guarantee (which matriculation provides, for the most part).

I looked at the charting outcomes yesterday- while almost universally lower across the board compared to MDs, it can still be said that most DOs that applied NMRP matched at reasonable rates to >50% of specialties. My point being that if you decide to go DO, you are achieving something that people are unfairly kept from achieving every year (strong applicants get overlooked) and have guaranteed yourself the ability to work as a physician. Further, you have a strong chance of working in a variety of specialties if you choose. If you perform well in school and are above average, you have a very strong chance. Yes, you will probably be locked out of very competitive specialties. DO closes some doors in this era.

Maybe you assume most people want things out of medicine that they do not actually want, or maybe I make that assumption. But I don't see the majority of physicians going into academic medicine (where prestige/high stats are truly important) or having their stats/DO-ness impact job prospects in the majority of markets. I also think that most people are okay being outside of hypercompetitive specialties, despite the fact that many would like to work in them if available.

And as I recall, what WCI seeks are docs that can work well in the community and are otherwise very knowledgeable docs (he also seemed to imply that academic EM residencies are less customer-service oriented)- he has found some residencies that supply him with that. But that is an anecdote that might not be super prevalent- I have read many more threads saying job prospects (outside of academia) are identical because there is so much demand.


I think others have addressed this already, but as far as I have been able to tell this statement on its own is patently false. I don't know why you believe this. Is it because there are MD state schools that are cheap? Because there are some of those in the DO world. It is also insanely expensive to attend some state MD schools as an out of state matriculant. Otherwise, I would place money on average MD vs DO tuition being within ~5k/year.

I do consistently enjoy reading your contributions to the forums.

I appreciate your kind word about my contribution.

My statement on DO school tuition is based on my personal experience. I went to a private school that were, at the time, cheaper than all the DO schools I’ve looked at. There may have been some tuition normalization in the last 4-5 years which I am not familiar with, but most DO school remain very expensive.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

We all know the MD's want in on the DO residencies so they can get in on them OMM secrets

Haha while funny, I think the clear benefactors of the process are low decile MD students. Top-tier DO students are also likely to benefit from streamlining the process, and most DO will benefit if COMLEX winds up going away.

 

[acapnial]

I appreciate your kind word about my contribution.

My statement on DO school tuition is based on my personal experience. I went to a private school that were, at the time, cheaper than all the DO schools I’ve looked at. There may have been some tuition normalization in the last 4-5 years which I am not familiar with, but most DO school remain very expensive.

Unfortunately the tuitions for private MD and DO schools are now indistinguishable

 

[Cath Up]

Unfortunately the tuitions for private MD and DO schools are now indistinguishable

There are some schools that are outliers but I have found that most private DO/MD tuitions are around 40-50k+ right now. Some are insane at 60k+ (I have seen this from private DO and out of state tuition for state MDs). In-state tuitions for state MD and DOs are the only reasonable ones. Probably helps that there are just so many more state MDs than state DOs.

 

[Cath Up]

Outside of Texas, its not public/private. Its conscious of spending and not conscious of spending.

LECOM is 30k. Admittedly LECOM has issues. DMU and KCU are both around 45k. While 45k is a lot, it implies less than 250k in debt at graduation, which is manageable.

UIW, Western Lebanon, etc are more than Columbia. 325k+ at graduation for a new DO school with merger pending?

Via the bolded, are you saying it is unwise to attend a high-priced program if it is one's only acceptance? While I am all about making sound financial choices, I question whether or not that actually is sound. Wouldn't you have to save >200k for it to make sense to delay the start of your schooling? Independent of the quality/prestige of the institution.

Tuition/Scholarships - Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO)Northwest
It looks like Western Lebanon is 56k/year? Steep but not particularly uncommon. Tiny difference, but LECOM is 32.8K this year- I have been considering my acceptance there against one to a school that has tuition >50k and despite the 100k, it is a very tough choice.

 

[deleted831695]

Felt I had to give an actual response here:

Maybe I’m old-fashioned but I think the undergraduate record should count for something.

Why? Nobody gives a cahoots about your MCAT/undergrad GPA in med school. The only thing I'd care about is for any pre-med school research docket (viz. pubs, posters at major conferences).

Yes it does because those few more A’s aren’t what prevented you from getting into an MD school. You could have reapplied if you wanted, but you chose a quicker path. One draws the line when he or she chooses to attend a DO school.

Oh that's cool, just wildly assume all of us were too lazy and wanted the easy way out, even though it's much more complicated than that. BTW, your future DO colleague might have very well had MD interviews/an acceptance.

As for the consistent academic record, it should absolutely count in a holistic application process when your goal is the pick the applicants with the most potential. Just to pile more on, my friend’s “top-ranked DO school” doesn’t even use shelf exams as a determination of honors for third year. All you have to do is become buddy-buddies with the residents or do rotations with people who have you write your own evals and you get Honors so there’s really no stress all of third year. That must be nice. Name me any MD school that does that. Until that, medical school admission standards, and other things (which I admittedly think mean less) like different rotations gets fixed, I think it’s quite fair for MD students to receive partial treatment with the same Step 1 score.

SpartanWolverine already gave a fair response to the shelf issue. And somebody like SW, an AMG who gets a solid foundation in clinical rotations while part of MSU's network, shouldn't be receiving lesser treatment compared to applicants who otherwise present the same application on the basis of admission standards (even though our school's is on par or surpasses that of other MD's). Sure, if you have reason to believe that a student didn't receive a solid clinical education to the other applicants with similar numbers/letters/research, then be partial, but that too shouldn't be judged between MD v DO, but also DO v DO and MD v MD.

I’ve tried to make my point and if no one sees it, I’m not going to go further. I’m just trying to be real not hurt anyone’s feelings. There are people who will talk sweet to you in person and hold harsher opinions of DOs when with their MD colleagues.

And will you be one of those people in real life? Some of these outdated opinions can be changed by current/future MDs not on their high horses.

 

[Redpancreas]

OK everyone, I'm sorry. My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school. The whole body of work of the student should play some role.

My story: Got into a DO program that gave you guaranteed admission so long as you meet with a counselor once per month, attend OMM meetings, and maintain a 3.5. MCAT waived and my high school hospital volunteering hours meant I didn’t have to do much volunteering and for research I had to meet with a research coordinator once to demonstrate my interest in research. That was it. The class size of this program was in the 40s-50s. Once I realized how lax this was and how vastly higher standards MDs required and what they offered via their match lists, I realized that’s where I wanted to be. At all the DO meetings, we were taught things that and that DOs used their touch and hands as if it was unique to the DO program. After my first year, I realized I didn’t want to be a part of it. I got a job in a research lab, volunteered, and shadowed. The next year I my schedule was brutal and my perfect GPA was ruined but I bounced back. I rarely spent any extended periods of time having fun and enjoying college as much as my friends. During the summer, I dedicated nearly all my time to the MCAT and another job I picked up and worked my hardest. I was devastated when I scored 65th percentile on the MCAT and took a while to bounce back. I got even more busy and less social (girls never really liked me anyways) and picked up a research job and a teaching position which helped review mcat material and between that, classes, I used a completely separate program to take a second mcat attempt and I scored in the 94th-96th percentile. I was ecstatic to get my score. If I wanted to go DO, I would have had to do none of that...literally. That’s the comparison in my mind that probably biases my thought when I compare MD vs DO standards, but I understand DO standards are getting higher and some are requiring more and more things. I could have coasted thru everything quite literally. I’m actually not that smart. I would actually say intelligence wise, I wouldn’t be surprised if I matched up more with DOs than my MD colleagues.

All that being said, if I see DOs in parallel positions to me, I see them as equals because I assume that they at some point experienced challenges at some point. The first doctor who allowed me to shadow him (surgical subspecialty) was a DO and I loved him. Two of my closest friends are DO physicians. As a future MD colleague, you have my respect and I will follow your orders just as I do with other MD consultants. Lastly, I hope a future merger helps and that DO admission standards are raised and perhaps even one day both degrees will be combined into one. Sorry for causing a pointless stir. I also denounce the DO hate that's going on in the IM Reddit pages. That's kind of vile.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school.

Hey at least you’re being honest. The reality is, even if it’s hard to swallow, that students like you and I really aren’t very different from each other, and our apps most likely didn’t look all that different.

 

[Chibucks15]

OK everyone, I'm sorry. My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school. I just want to say I respect and revere my DO colleagues. The first doctor who allowed me to shadow him (surgical subspecialty) was a DO and I loved him. Two of my closest friends are DO physicians. As a future MD colleague, you have my respect and I will follow your orders just as I do with other MD consultants. Lastly, I hope a future merger helps and that DO admission standards are raised and perhaps even one day both degrees will be combined into one. Sorry for causing a pointless stir. I also denounce the DO hate that's going on in the IM Reddit pages. That's kind of vile.

I don't doubt that you have no animosity towards DOs but the way that the complaints were worded definitely came off as looking down upon us lowly DOs because maybe our applications were 0.3 GPA points below yours. There's a lot of external factors that can contribute to a student going to either direction and it will (most of the time) get them to the same place. The playing field will only get more and more level because the education by in large is very similar. I know there are outliers to that statement so don't @ me. I'm more talking about the established DO schools because that's all I have experience with. Just food for thought for you in the future, best of luck to you future colleague.

 

[deleted831695]

My only real gripe is that I don't think the playing field for residency position for MD vs. DO should be level and that's partly driven by my own circumstances coming from a lower tier MD school.

I appreciate the rest of your post, but I don't get why you have this gripe. Hopefully it's not those same reasons you provided when you came guns blazing into this thread, saying we have "lower [admission] standards" (though that's not necessarily true for some schools), have grade replacement (even though it ended), and stated we all should have reapplied to have gone MD (making assumptions about everyone). There's some disparity in the MD world, and likewise some disparity in the DO world (why do you think everyone recommends "state DO schools >/= established schools > new schools"), and it's really a continuum with some overlap.

 

[Redpancreas]

I appreciate the rest of your post, but I don't get why you have this gripe. Hopefully it's not those same reasons you provided when you came guns blazing into this thread, saying we have "lower [admission] standards" (though that's not necessarily true for some schools), have grade replacement (even though it ended), and stated we all should have reapplied to have gone MD (making assumptions about everyone). There's some disparity in the MD world, and likewise some disparity in the DO world (why do you think everyone recommends "state DO schools >/= established schools > new schools"), and it's really a continuum with some overlap.

Edited that post. Re-read if you’d like. I got carried away today in another similar thread. I’m done talking about this.

 

[Event_Horizon]

At the end of the day, prestige matters to many individuals. There will always be those that care more about it than others and DO schools are largely lower tier medical schools. However, those that claim various reasonings for why a DO education is inferior to MD education or why MDs should be valued more than DOs tend to be people that have not yet reached a milestone of perspective. If claiming lower admission standards, it's usually pre-clinical students that have no idea what clinical medicine is like. If claiming lower rotation standards/boards, its usually clinical students that have no idea what matching or being on a resident team is like. Then there are the attendings that (by far) argue no difference and define success by patient satisfaction, thoroughness, dependability, accountability, and likability, which have very little to do with your medical school and more to do with your residency training. Each category is worried about what is important for that level of achievement. The kicker is that it levels out at the attending level.

Of course there are outliers in every category, but SDN's hive mentality often make it seem more prevalent then it actually is. However, there are many arguements that really are accurately portrayed here, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt. People get too caught up in arguing for the sake of arguing. Then throw in the wrench of neither MD nor DO students really knowing what the other's education is truly like, with a basis that relies largely on anecdotes and internet forums. As one gains more milestones of perspective, the argument becomes increasingly trivial. Additionally, too many individuals use population statistics to try and evaluate medical students on this website, which is entirely inappropriate. Too many variables.

I think efforts should be more focused toward breeding the condensation attitude toward prestige out of the medical community. It only leads to more bitterness and separation. The compulsive and almost obsessive nature of needing to be right and be validated is all too common in medical students, largely because the training often necessitates it. Work hard and worry about yourself. MD vs DO should be the least of your worries.

 

[deleted831695]

Edited that post. Re-read if you’d like. I got carried away today in another similar thread. I’m done talking about this.

I get where you are coming from now, and I appreciate you sharing. All I'll say is that these 'guaranteed' admissions programs everywhere vary in their expectations and requirements, and you can't generalize all MDs require "vastly higher standards" (agree that on average, it's higher than the average for DO). I know a couple of people who partied all the time in college and had tons of fun and got into an MD, or there there are people who could have gone MD out of state and paid more but wanted to stay in-state for various reasons.

At the end of the day, prestige matters to many individuals. There will always be those that care more about it than others and DO schools are largely lower tier medical schools. However, those that claim various reasonings for why a DO education is inferior to MD education or why MDs should be valued more than DOs tend to be people that have not yet reached a milestone of perspective. If claiming lower admission standards, it's usually pre-clinical students that have no idea what clinical medicine is like. If claiming lower rotation standards/boards, its usually clinical students that have no idea what matching or being on a resident team is like. Then there are the attendings that (by far) argue no difference and define success by patient satisfaction, thoroughness, dependability, accountability, and likability, which have very little to do with your medical school and more to do with your residency training. Each category is worried about what is important for that level of achievement. The kicker is that it levels out at the attending level.

I agree with most of these points, but even if it evens out at the attending level, whomever are current PDs or future PDs determining residency selections still might make some incorrect generalizations about admission or rotation standards. If it only comes down to prestige, would you really say somebody from a "low-tier" (hate that term BTW) school carries much higher name-branding than say a grad from MSU, OhioU, or OKState?

 

[Redpancreas]

I get where you are coming from now, and I appreciate you sharing. All I'll say is that these 'guaranteed' admissions programs everywhere vary in their expectations and requirements, and you can't generalize all MDs require "vastly higher standards" (agree that on average, it's higher than the average for DO). I know a couple of people who partied all the time in college and had tons of fun and got into an MD, or there there are people who could have gone MD out of state and paid more but wanted to stay in-state for various reasons.



I agree with most of these points, but even if it evens out at the attending level, whomever are current PDs or future PDs determining residency selections still might make some incorrect generalizations about admission or rotation standards. If it only comes down to prestige, would you really say somebody from a "low-tier" (hate that term BTW) school carries much higher name-branding than say a grad from MSU, OhioU, or OKState?

MSU MD is low tier as are all schools in Michigan aside from Ann Arbor. OSU is midtier.

 

[AlmadeDr]

I think one of the things that confuses the picture when evaluating DO candidates is that the variability of the students is so great, even within schools. When ACGME PDs only see a few DO applicants every year, probably from different schools (in comparison to the huge numbers of MD grads) it takes so much more time to research the schools' reputations and their grading systems, even more if they have only taken COMLEX and you have to decide how it compares to all of the USMLE scores you are seeing. Why go to all that extra effort for someone who may or may not be worth it when you have a huge stack of candidates who you know exactly what their grades, scores, curriculum means.

The merger may impact this in the future as candidates who may have otherwise applied only AOA out of fear have an easier time adding in a few traditionally ACGME programs and PDs as a whole become more familiar with reviewing DO applications. We'll see.

Believe me, I get the DO frustration. My options ended up being limited to DO schools based on my undergraduate GPA. At a 3.4, you may say I did "poorly" in school, but the reality is that I went to a highly academically respected liberal arts school that is always on those lists of "top 10 schools for intensity of classwork" and I also challenged myself with subjects outside of my areas of focus. Because I didn't start undergraduate with the aim of protecting my GPA at all costs, my choices were limited. I was near the top of my class in DO school and had very good USMLE scores. I got some good interviews for residency, but I knew it was a long shot because the programs at the top of my list were taking a DO on average maybe every other year. So yes, being a DO likely had something to do with me falling down my rank list for IM residency. But I ended up at a place where they were advocates for me and able to set up my application for fellowship so that I have extreme confidence in a result I am happy with. There are hundreds of DOs like me who are academically excellent and just had one thing hold them back in their apps to MD school but crush everything else once they get there. It is ok to shake your head at the system, but you can't take it personally. You have to do your best so you are not the limiting factor in your opportunities, and then once things have fallen in place you need to look at the next goal and focus your energies on making sure that you do everything within your power to maximize your opportunities for that next step

TL;DR
There are definitely issues with standardization that prevent DOs from getting an equal evaluation from programs. Merger is a good step I think to start making this less of an issue AND iron out curriculum problems at "weak" schools.

Stellar DO applicants can definitely find things to be frustrated about, but ultimately that is not productive. Each subsequent level of training you are able to work hard and demonstrate competence and excellence to maximize your opportunities and "move up the ladder"

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[deleted831695]

MSU MD is low tier as are all schools in Michigan aside from Ann Arbor. OSU is midtier.

I was talking about MSU DO, and Oklahoma State and Ohio University, whose med schools are DO.