What do you feed yourself?

[Poke]

We need the cops to keep coffee and donut shops in business.

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[VAgirl]

For one, corn products have more omega 6s than other types of processed foods, like canola oil. Omega 6s promote the formation of Group 2 prostanoids, which tend to be more pro inflammatory, and thus, worse. Omega 3's on the other hand, are the precursors to group 3 prostanoids which have a weaker inflammatory and clotting potential (one reason why people living exclusively on marine creatures tend to have pretty high risks of aneurisms)..

Also, beef fed on corn has less Omega 3 FAs in their meat, which means it is a little more pro inflammatory than it could otherwise be.

Very interesting, thank you!

Now I'm wondering how big of an impact this actually has on the health of the consumer. Certainly it will depend on the amount of meat consumed.

 

[Foofur]

I understand where you are coming from, but isn't this a like saying eliminating crime would be a bad thing because then the cops would be out of business?

Well said! This view was actually said by my classmates that argued against my vegetarianism.

 

[silverelf]

to play a little devil's advocate...

well i have a different support angle for the meat-eating bit...forget the large animal vets and their jobs... what about the cows? evolutionarily, they are a failure...we have manufactured an animal that cannot exist without our direct management. if we stop eating them...they'll pretty much stop existing. cows are nice, but they make pretty terrible housepets!

 

[Foofur]

to play a little devil's advocate...

well i have a different support angle for the meat-eating bit...forget the large animal vets and their jobs... what about the cows? evolutionarily, they are a failure...we have manufactured an animal that cannot exist without our direct management. if we stop eating them...they'll pretty much stop existing. cows are nice, but they make pretty terrible housepets!

Agreed- cows are basically useless (apart from our personal consumption). They are pretty cute though.

If we were to get rid of cows, just think of the reduction of methane gases in the air. It is a significant amount. Plus, we use a lot of water and crops to feed these animals. Environmentally, it would be more beneficial to wipe out the cows.

I am not saying that I directly support this- I am just putting that view out there!

 

[Poke]

Of course, in the same mindset you could put out there that in our attempts to stop diseases we are only contributing to overpopulation, and therefore to the consumption of the world's resources. So, we should stop trying to advance medicine and let the sick die. Hey... natural selection, right?

 

[ylrebmik]

For you veggie people, are your significant others also veggie? If you don't have an SO yet, would you dateget serious with a omnivore? Just curious.

My hubby is also a veggie and I don't think I could be with someone who eats meat. Is is SOOO nice not to have any meat in our house ever! (minus the dry cat food.. but it's salmon )

Well I've been with my boyfriend for 3 years and he is an omnivore... I'm a vegetarian. Besides that, our eating habits are fairly similar so its not too bad but he doesn't agree with vegetarians... he thinks if you go that way you should be vegan. My family doesn't support me either with it They always give me bets for 1000 dollars if i eat a piece of chicken...and its annoying. I have my own fridge though. (I'm in hs so i still live with my parents...) My parents have a fridge full of their meat and I have mine with all my veggie stuff. I have to make all my meals though... they have meat at every meal so I am on my own to make my own stuff. But honestly, living with people with meat in the house isn't that bad... its just the frequent.. " ill give you a 100 dollars" or "why are you veggy" or the classic "why don't you still eat chicken... some veggies do.." - no they don't. haha. Sorry for my rant.

 

[chris03333]

... he thinks if you go that way you should be vegan.

I very strongly agree with this, IF you are a "moral vegetarian". If you are a vegetarian because of health issues, or don't like the taste of meat then I don't care. If you are doing it on moral ground, dairy cows and chickens used for eggs have the same treatment (some worse) then the meat livestock.

 

[pressmom]

100% agreed!

I very strongly agree with this, IF you are a "moral vegetarian". If you are a vegetarian because of health issues, or don't like the taste of meat then I don't care. If you are doing it on moral ground, dairy cows and chickens used for eggs have the same treatment (some worse) then the meat livestock.

 

[ylrebmik]

I'd be sick if I went vegan completely though and he doesn't understand that... I can't take pills (phychological... takes me an hour to take asprin) so I wouldn't be able to have supplements and I can't have that much fruit because of a condition I have... I could try it again but I won't until college at least but I guess health is a very minor part... considering I would have to buy my own groceries... and well that would even be limited.

 

[chris03333]

I'd be sick if I went vegan completely though and he doesn't understand that... I can't take pills (phychological... takes me an hour to take asprin) so I wouldn't be able to have supplements and I can't have that much fruit because of a condition I have... I could try it again but I won't until college at least but I guess health is a very minor part... considering I would have to buy my own groceries... and well that would even be limited.

This is gonna be offensive so I apologize ahead of time. This is the biggest bull $hit excuse. IF you are morally a vegetarian, you could learn how to eat as a healthy vegan. I know plently of people who are vegan and do not take supplements (or there is always ....GASP....grinding them up and mixing them in your food, if you do not know what to eat.) And having to buy your own groceries is your other reason??? Give me a break.

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people talking about how they became vegetarians for animal welfare. That is one of the most hypocritical things you can say/do.

 

[VeganSoprano]

Vegan, for almost 8 years now.

I don't take any supplements and while I love fruit, I don't eat it every day because it's so expensive. I'm about as healthy as it's possible to be, and proud of that fact!

 

[ylrebmik]

Vegan, for almost 8 years now.

I don't take any supplements and while I love fruit, I don't eat it every day because it's so expensive. I'm about as healthy as it's possible to be, and proud of that fact!

Thats awesome. One of my old friend's went vegan because she thinks everything that comes from an animal is unhealthy but she doesn't care about animals at all... && I had another old friend that went vegan but she never sticks to it.. so thats awesome how you keep with it

 

[silverelf]

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people talking about how they became vegetarians for animal welfare. That is one of the most hypocritical things you can say/do.

agreed!!

 

[banditalfi]

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people talking about how they became vegetarians for animal welfare. That is one of the most hypocritical things you can say/do.

One of the things that bugs me is people who claim that eating meat isn't natural, yet still eat eggs and dairy. Doesn't it seem more likely that our ancestors killed an animal and ate its meat rather than catching it and milking it?

 

[ylrebmik]

One of the things that bugs me is people who claim that eating meat isn't natural, yet still eat eggs and dairy. Doesn't it seem more likely that our ancestors killed an animal and ate its meat rather than catching it and milking it?

i haven't heard that one yet. haha.

 

[AuburnPreVet]

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people talking about how they became vegetarians for animal welfare. That is one of the most hypocritical things you can say/do.

I'm a tad confused. This statement (especially the use of "hypocritical") suggests that those who cut meat products out of their diet are somehow doing a dis-service to animal welfare. It's FAR from perfect, being since dairy animals are no better off -- but hypocritical? Confused. It's half way "there" but since when is something not better than nothing?

Unless you're suggesting that those who cut meat out of their diet are more likely to eat more eggs, consume more milk, etc -- that might be hypocritical... since those animals may be treated "worse," if you will. However, I don't think that applies to the vast majority of vegetarians.

 

[chris03333]

I'm a tad confused. This statement (especially the use of "hypocritical") suggests that those who cut meat products out of their diet are somehow doing a dis-service to animal welfare. It's FAR from perfect, being since dairy animals are no better off -- but hypocritical? Confused. It's half way "there" but since when is something not better than nothing?

Unless you're suggesting that those who cut meat out of their diet are more likely to eat more eggs, consume more milk, etc -- that might be hypocritical... since those animals may be treated "worse," if you will. However, I don't think that applies to the vast majority of vegetarians.

You have to understand that I am speaking about moral vegetarians. There are people who talk bad about eating meat, how bad the animals are treated and yet they still choose to eat eggs and drink milk/eat dairy products. In no way am I saying this about all vegetarians, read all of my posts. I am saying it is stupid to talk crap about eating meat when you are not vegan. Don't criticize me because I am okay with eating the meat produced by the cow that you are drinking milk from or the chicken I eat which poduced your eggs. That is where the hypocritical portion comes in.

 

[lailanni]

I am pseudo vegetarian - I tend to avoid meat, but will eat it when it's served - I don't make a fuss about it. My mom cooks with meat, and I'm not going to turn down home cookin!

On my own, I'm vegetarian.

I avoid meat for a few reasons, some health based (the added hormones/anitibiotics have a real effect of my health) and some of my personal feelings (videos I've seen of caged factory hens, etc).

I only buy the 'home grown' eggs from local farms. When I can, I try to get local milk too. One of my goals is to have my own chickens - happy chickens that make happy eggs.

 

[AuburnPreVet]

You have to understand that I am speaking about moral vegetarians. There are people who talk bad about eating meat, how bad the animals are treated and yet they still choose to eat eggs and drink milk/eat dairy products. In no way am I saying this about all vegetarians, read all of my posts. I am saying it is stupid to talk crap about eating meat when you are not vegan. Don't criticize me because I am okay with eating the meat produced by the cow that you are drinking milk from or the chicken I eat which poduced your eggs. That is where the hypocritical portion comes in.

Gotcha.

 

[Slothbear]

Sorry, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people talking about how they became vegetarians for animal welfare. That is one of the most hypocritical things you can say/do.

I agree completely with you that being a "moral" vegetarian (as opposed to a moral vegan) is hypocritical. ( As animals used for eggs and dairy production usually live pretty crappy lives.)

But I'm a bit confused as to why this hypocrisy bothers you? If Sally was going to eat a bacon cheeseburger, but opts to eat a veggie burger with a slice of cheese, she is still supporting the farm industry, but there will be LESS suffering because of her choice. Perhaps not ZERO suffering, but less. And less is good, no? It seems pretty ridiculous to say, "Well, if I can't commit to being a vegan, I should just eat meat and cause a lot of suffering, because it would be hypocritical to cut down on my animal product consumption without eliminating it entirely."

My argument only holds up if vegetarians are not replacing the meat they would be eating with an equivalent amount of dairy. I think for the most part vegetarians do not do this -- I know few vegetarians that will grill and eat a 16oz slab of cheese. So, hypocritical it may be, but the consequences of a vegetarian diet are less animal suffering. In this case, we should be more concerned with outcome than with consistency.

 

[ylrebmik]

You have to understand that I am speaking about moral vegetarians. There are people who talk bad about eating meat, how bad the animals are treated and yet they still choose to eat eggs and drink milk/eat dairy products. In no way am I saying this about all vegetarians, read all of my posts. I am saying it is stupid to talk crap about eating meat when you are not vegan. Don't criticize me because I am okay with eating the meat produced by the cow that you are drinking milk from or the chicken I eat which poduced your eggs. That is where the hypocritical portion comes in.

I understand more what you meant now. I'm not that way... I don't think eating meat is a bad thing... people are omnivores... its "natural"... I just think its a personal choice and I have mine.

 

[silverelf]

I agree completely with you that being a "moral" vegetarian (as opposed to a moral vegan) is hypocritical. ( As animals used for eggs and dairy production usually live pretty crappy lives.)

But I'm a bit confused as to why this hypocrisy bothers you? If Sally was going to eat a bacon cheeseburger, but opts to eat a veggie burger with a slice of cheese, she is still supporting the farm industry, but there will be LESS suffering because of her choice. Perhaps not ZERO suffering, but less. And less is good, no? It seems pretty ridiculous to say, "Well, if I can't commit to being a vegan, I should just eat meat and cause a lot of suffering, because it would be hypocritical to cut down on my animal product consumption without eliminating it entirely."

My argument only holds up if vegetarians are not replacing the meat they would be eating with an equivalent amount of dairy. I think for the most part vegetarians do not do this -- I know few vegetarians that will grill and eat a 16oz slab of cheese. So, hypocritical it may be, but the consequences of a vegetarian diet are less animal suffering. In this case, we should be more concerned with outcome than with consistency.

Last time I checked, dairy sales did not positively affect beef cattle producers. Thus, your argument really isn't valid. Besides, if you are a "moral vegetarian" - its even more of a crock of **** what you're saying - I would much rather be a beefer in a feed lot than a chicken in a battery cage - as a general rule, beefers are better treated and the slaughtering process is humane.

 

[Slothbear]

Last time I checked, dairy sales did not positively affect beef cattle producers. Thus, your argument really isn't valid. Besides, if you are a "moral vegetarian" - its even more of a crock of **** what you're saying - I would much rather be a beefer in a feed lot than a chicken in a battery cage - as a general rule, beefers are better treated and the slaughtering process is humane.

Did I say that dairy sales positively affected beef producers? Reading over my post, I don't think so, but if I did, oops.

Let's assume beef steers, meat pigs and dairy cows suffer roughly the same amount. If you want, we can even assume the dairy cow suffers a little bit more.

So, pretend Sally was an ardent carnivore, but decides to try out vegetarianism. Instead of a motorburger (hamburger topped with bacon, cheese and a fried egg -- find them at the White Spot in VA), she opts for a veggie burger with fake bacon, an egg and a slice of cheese. Perhaps we can use some math to illustrate the point? And before you get your knickers in a knot, I realize the math is not this simple, but it effectively illustrates the point.
Motorburger = 1 unit of beef suffering + 1 unit of pig suffering + 1 unit of chicken suffering + 2 units of dairy suffering = 5 units of animal suffering
Veggie burger with fake bacon, cheese and egg = 2 units of dairy suffering + 1 unit of chicken suffering = 3 units of animal suffering.

Even though Sally is still eating animal products, she is eating less of them. Because she is replacing the meat with vegetable products, she is consuming fewer animal products. IF she were to replace the meat with an equivalent amount of dairy or eggs (let's say the "veggie burger" was actually a brick of solid cheese, and the veggie bacon was actually strips of cheese painted red), she would still be causing animal suffering -- more, according to our little equation.

Only if vegetarians replace the meat they would otherwise consume with plant products, and hold the amount of dairy and eggs they eat constant (instead of eating more dairy and eggs to compensate for the missing meat), are they reducing animal suffering.

What do most vegetarians usually do? When they cut out meat, do most of them increase the amount of eggs and dairy they eat? Not usually, though I'm sure some do. Most vegetarians end up using tofu, big juicy portabellos, potatoes, or grain dishes to stand in for the missing meat.

Would you contend that a family of carnivores that reduced -- but did not eliminate -- their meat consumption out of concern for animal welfare would not actually be causing a reduction in animal suffering? Sure you could call them hypocrites, but they would still be hypocrites who are making a difference.

 

[silverelf]

no you did not say that dairy sales go to beef farms...you said that dairy is supporting the farm industry anyways, so what's the difference? that's the point I took offense to. there is a BIG difference. its like telling a dairy farmer, well i'm vegan so i'm not going to drink your milk but i bought carrots today so GOOOOOO FARMING!!

i don't have a problem with vegans - power to them. i do have a problem with people who think they're morally superior because they're vegetarian. They're not morally superior, they are poorly informed. I don't think that they should get a pat on the back for "overall reduction of animal suffering". Being a beefer isn't a great life, but its not that bad. And its a hell of a lot better than being a chicken. Beef cows don't suffer. They are raised in so-so conditions in a feedlot, or quite happily out on the range. Almost all slaughter plants are now adopting Temple Grandin methods - even McDonalds only accepts meat from T.G. approved facilities. So they don't suffer there either. And the method of slaughter is also humane. I don't see where the suffering is - all i see is that if someone did not eventually eat that cow, it would not exist. It never would have existed - cows are only around because people raise them - in the wild left to their own devices, they'd go extinct.

Now a chicken - that chicken suffers in that cage. And that veal cow - it suffers too. As does the force-fed goose. THOSE are the animal welfare issues that our vegetarian should be taking issue with. No, instead our poorly informed Sally thinks she's doing some good by putting a farm out of business because she's taking the high road and not eating meat that came from a "suffering" animal.

You want to be a morally superior person, cut out veal and goose liver and eat only home-grown eggs. You buy them in a store, you're no better than any other meat-eating person.

 

[Slothbear]

1. no you did not say that dairy sales go to beef farms...you said that dairy is supporting the farm industry anyways, so what's the difference?

2. I don't think that they should get a pat on the back for "overall reduction of animal suffering". 3. Being a beefer isn't a great life, but its not that bad. And its a hell of a lot better than being a chicken. 4. I don't see where the suffering is - 5. all i see is that if someone did not eventually eat that cow, it would not exist. It never would have existed - cows are only around because people raise them - in the wild left to their own devices, they'd go extinct.

6. Now a chicken - that chicken suffers in that cage. And that veal cow - it suffers too. As does the force-fed goose. THOSE are the animal welfare issues that our vegetarian should be taking issue with. 7. No, instead our poorly informed Sally thinks she's doing some good by putting a farm out of business because she's taking the high road and not eating meat that came from a "suffering" animal.

You want to be a morally superior person, cut out veal and goose liver and eat only home-grown eggs. 8. You buy them in a store, you're no better than any other meat-eating person.

1. Erm, no. That's not what I said or implied. Most animal farming can be equated with suffering on some level, however mild, and if you support animal farming by eating animal products, you support some level of animal suffering. If you eat fewer animal products you are less of a supporter of animal suffering. Vegetarians eat fewer animal products than carnivores. Vegans eat less than vegetarians. The difference lies in HOW MUCH.

2. No? I think that making a major lifestyle change to support something you believe in should be commended, even if you cannot perfectly embody your principles. Should you be commended for driving a Prius and using energy-efficient light bulbs? I mean, you're no ****ing saint, but you are making a difference -- and that is good. You could do better, but some is better than none.

And if you're concerned about who is getting pats on the back -- keeping eating your burgers, but buy local, free-range eggs and I'll give you a big pat on the back -- just like I would give to a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat, and buys those same free-range eggs.

3. You're right about chickens. Unless you're granny's pet layer, your life as an egg layer or broiler is pretty much chicken ****. Unlike the meat eater who eats factory chickens and eggs. The vegetarian only eats the factory eggs -- not ideal, but less suffering

4. TRULY free range beef? Pretty durn happy. Steers in big-ass feedlots eating corn and silage and standing on concrete? No so happy. Please don't pretend like beef cows never suffer - esp if you're destined for kosher beef. Sure TG is awesome, and cows are much better off than they were. But a life in a feedlot followed by slaughter is not as hunky dory as you make it sound. I agree -- there are gradations of animal suffering. TG and humane slaughter make things better, but do not completely eliminate suffering.

5. This argument gets pretty absurd if you follow it out to its logical conclusion. If extinction of cows is bad because it means those cows are not getting to live fun and rewarding lives until they get slaughtered, think off all the potential lives Americans are squelching by using birth control! You could have had like 5 babies by now! They could all be eating candy and living wonderful happy lives! Think of all the potential happiness you have squashed! Absurd to think in those terms, no?

Nonexistence does not equal suffering.

6. They usually do. Most veggies I know are concerned with eating local, truly free-range animal products.

7. Riiiiight. Changing behaviors is bad if it puts someone out of business. Crime = jobs for cops.

8. Correct -- a veggie is not BETTER than a meat eating person, but they cause less suffering than a meat eater who buys the same eggs AND a nice fat broiler chicken.

You know, I've heard far fewer obnoxiously righteous vegetarians than I've heard people complaining about them. Sometimes I think carnivores get on the defensive, and perceive what might be a simple explanation of the reasoning behind a veggie diet as an attack on their character.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm judging meat eaters. I'm not. In fact, I'm very pro-meat in places like Botswana (too much trouble to irrigate for crops, goats can eat scrub, people can eat goats). But I think meat eaters should be able to honestly introspect without getting defensive. $hit, I'm no animal welfare saint -- I still occasionally eat some dairy and eggs -- free-range expensive stuff from WF that is probably the "fake" free range kind anyways, eggs from local farm when I can. No one is a saint -- we're all trying to make this a world we'd like to live in -- some people by being veggie, some by giving to charity, some by working on human rights issues. People aren't BETTER than each other for the choices they make. That doesn't mean there aren't bad choices, good choices, and better choices.

 

[PiddlingFish]

No, instead our poorly informed Sally thinks she's doing some good by putting a farm out of business because she's taking the high road and not eating meat that came from a "suffering" animal.

Sounds good to me.


Basically, ditto to everything Slothbear said.

 

[dyachei]

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm judging meat eaters. I'm not. In fact, I'm very pro-meat in places like Botswana (too much trouble to irrigate for crops, goats can eat scrub, people can eat goats). But I think meat eaters should be able to honestly introspect without getting defensive. $hit, I'm no animal welfare saint -- I still occasionally eat some dairy and eggs -- free-range expensive stuff from WF that is probably the "fake" free range kind anyways, eggs from local farm when I can. No one is a saint -- we're all trying to make this a world we'd like to live in -- some people by being veggie, some by giving to charity, some by working on human rights issues. People aren't BETTER than each other for the choices they make. That doesn't mean there aren't bad choices, good choices, and better choices.

I mostly keep my opinions on this subject to myself. But this is very subjective. I've had many vegetarians comment on my eating meat with no provocation by me. I've had vegans question my choice of going into vet med because I eat meat. So maybe the vegetarians you know are less vocal, but not all are. And honestly? Sometimes I do get a little defensive because I'm tired of defending the fact that I do eat meat to those that are unprovoked. It all depends on the vegetarians/vegans you know.

I think the bigger issue for me isn't just that some vegetarians think themselves better for not eating meat, but that they expect everyone to admire them for it or something. Because those that do expect it announce their eating habits constantly. The people I know that engage in energy and gas saving actions don't constantly tell me that they are better than I am.

 

[ShelterGirl]

The people I know that engage in energy and gas saving actions don't constantly tell me that they are better than I am.

It's the reverse for me - the vegans and vegetarians I know quietly just do their thing, while the eco-consious people lecture everyone who doesn't drive a hybrid like they do

 

[Hollycozza]

It's the reverse for me - the vegans and vegetarians I know quietly just do their thing,

ditto to that, was starting to wonder if US vegoes are a lot more vocal as we have about 40% vegetarians in my class at uni but I don't think I've ever really heard it discussed, let alone anyone lecturing anyone else about it!

 

[Catch91]

I'm a vegetarian, and a very healthy eater. I strictly stay away from red meat and pork, but on the occasion that my mom spends hours in the kitchen making some sort of fish or chicken meal, I may have a bite. I eat lots of fruit and vegetables, and lots of nuts to get my protein. Salads are a great way to stay vegetarian, and I don't mean the typical response from non-veggies.."What do you eat, lettuce?". I can make salads with fruits, vegetables, nuts, and cheeses, and it's delicious! I have no problem staying away from meat, and no desire to have a cheese burger or a steak ever again.

A friend of mine is a big meat eater. She doesn't like it that I'm a vegetarian, and sort of jumps on every chance to let me know it. She's under the impression that "animals were put on this earth to feed humans"... and I just look at her and say, "No, I don't believe that at all." It really bothers me that she feels this way, and that she feels like she has to press her opinions on me. I don't care if she doesn't approve of my lifestyle choices, but that's how I am going to eat. Whenever we go out to lunch or dinner, she makes comments when I order a salad, and makes a fuss about it when I have to sit and watch her gorge on her burger. I obviously don't like it that she does eat meat, or the frank view she has about animals and their purpose, but I don't try to make her feel bad about it or make her change her ways. Almost every week or so, she asks me, "Are you still a vegetarian?" Really, it gets old. So to all you non-veggies out there, please don't do this to your vegetarian or vegan friends.

 

[rexosaurus]

I think the big picture here may be that everybody has their own preference of food, whether it includes lots of animals, some animals, or no animals. We aren't going to get anywhere by belittling eachother. Let's just celebrate our diversity, eh?

 

[Catch91]

I think the big picture here may be that everybody has their own preference of food, whether it includes lots of animals, some animals, or no animals. We aren't going to get anywhere by belittling eachother. Let's just celebrate our diversity, eh?

Cheers to that!