What do you feed your dog or cat?

[dyachei]

Really, the nutrition issue is a bit of a religious war, and I was going to stay out, but I can't. Dogs can indeed digest corn; maize gluten meal is one of the more digestible grains out there for monogastrics and is high in protein and contains the amino acid methionine.

I'm concerned because I do not see a lot of credible sources cited by raw/homemade diet folks. The references provided seem to be in the vein of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true." I realize that there is not a lot of research on holistic medicine out there yet, but the plural of anecdote is not fact. That said, I understand that the big pet food companies underwrite a lot of the scholarly studies out there, so bias may be present. Call me an equal opportunity skeptic.

You said exactly what I was thinking.

As to the 20 year old issue for some of the articles, 20 years ago we thought trans fats were good and now we're taking them out of human foods. Science (and our understanding of nutrition) and therefore the research can change a lot in 20 years. I'd be a lot more comfortable with newer studies.

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Dogs may be able to chemically/physically digest corn, as studies have shown, but it is all the the absorption and utilization, which is much more variable.

Corn may be high in methionine, but it is terribly deficienct in lysine. I see little effort in most food to make up this imbalance besides a sprinkling of soybean meal, which doesn't go much when corn gluten meal is one of the largest ingredients --- Corn is 18/100/32 Lys/Met/Arg, Soy is 70/56/89 Lys/Met/Arg. By contrast, meat is extremely well balanced at about 50/50/79 Corn just does NOT have a good amino acid profile.... it is NOT a complete protein and it cannot be pretended to be one.

Actually, there have a been MANY studies recently showing all of the physiological benefits of a low-processed diet in animals (ie , can be likened to a "holistic" diet as opposed to the more processed "commercial" diets, most notabley the effects of anti-inflammatory and anti-tumor gene amplification, kidney histology and function, kidney function/histology, and lifespan. If you're interested, i can PM you links to the studies.

As for the whole reading on the interent , therefore it must be true - unfortunately it is easy to come across that way. I pooh-poohed raw/holistic kibble/homecooked for a long time because I though there were no credible sources. But if you pick through all of the "militant" sites, you CAN find good information, both from vets and nutritionists. There IS a lot of "big-talk" out there, but it is the same for the large companies. It is hard to find unbiased info in any direction. I just go by what makes sense to me, what I see working best for other people's dogs, and relying on the credible sources I have found.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Actually, here are a few, specifically focusing on the effects of glycotoxins in the diet (glycotoxins - or AGEs, advanced glycosylation endproduct - products of the Maillard Reaction, aka cooking, on various foods). These are very recent, within a few years - the stuff I plan to do my PhD around, so I have many many more if you would like to see!

http://jpen.aspenjournals.org/cgi/content/full/31/5/430
http://ajp.amjpathol.org/cgi/content/full/170/6/1893
http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/full/62/4/427
http://glycob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/7/16R

These findings are all really groundbreaking. No one was expecting such an impact. In my mind, all of these point towards a raw or minimally cooked diet as being the way to go in terms of cellular function. What is especially nice about thse studies is that it doesnt really matter what species they are using, because the mechanisms of gene amplification are extremely similar, if not identical, all around. So even already we can start extrapolating to companion animals, even humans. Hopefully studies on companion animals will begin soon. Glycotoxins and the chemo-kinetics of cooking food are really becoming interesting as we learn more about them.

 

[Red Dobie]

Really, the nutrition issue is a bit of a religious war, and I was going to stay out, but I can't. Dogs can indeed digest corn; maize gluten meal is one of the more digestible grains out there for monogastrics and is high in protein and contains the amino acid methionine.

I will be perfectly honest with you when I say this, then I will leave it alone. In my time as a vet, I have not seen nor heard anything credible suggesting corn is highly digestable. In fact, I've heard and seen studies that suggest the opposite.

The references provided seem to be in the vein of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true."

Let's be fair and apply this principle to those who read that Science Diet is an excellent food because it is recommended or sold by vets. Also, those who feel a food is healthy because it says so on the bag.

That said, I understand that the big pet food companies underwrite a lot of the scholarly studies out there, so bias may be present. Call me an equal opportunity skeptic.

Let's not be naive. Of course there is bias, no pet food company is going to fund a study in which their food/ingredients come out in the wash. They are not stupid.

One of the things I find a little ironic is the outrage with 4-D ingredients. In the wild, scavengers/predators hunt the weak - they prey on dead, dying, diseased or disabled animals, not young adults at the peak of fitness. I don't think your ur-dog would often be eating choice bits off a fresh, healthy, 1-2 year old cattlebeast.

Are you really trying to compare a weakened or sick wild animal to a domesticated animal who is dead, sent through processing, and used as a food source? How many of those wild animals were pumped full of steroids, [SIZE=-1]sodium pentobarbital, and many other things you will not find in a wild animal? Also, the animals eaten in wild are typically going to be fresh meat, not processed.[/SIZE]

PS: My dog eats Pedigree. I doubt the Kiwi version is the same as the US one. Back in the States he used to eat Innova Senior. Premium food here is $100+ a bag, thus out of the question. I have to say, I see only one ill effect from Pedigree (vs. Innova) - more tartar on his teeth.

I promise you, the tartar is not the only effect Pedigree is having on your dog.

 

[Red Dobie]

You said exactly what I was thinking.

As to the 20 year old issue for some of the articles, 20 years ago we thought trans fats were good and now we're taking them out of human foods. Science (and our understanding of nutrition) and therefore the research can change a lot in 20 years. I'd be a lot more comfortable with newer studies.

You missed my point. I am saying just because the article may be 20 years old does not make it invalid. The article referenced still hold relevance.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

I'm concerned because I do not see a lot of credible sources cited by raw/homemade diet folks. The references provided seem to be in the vein of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true." I realize that there is not a lot of research on holistic medicine out there yet, but the plural of anecdote is not fact. That said, I understand that the big pet food companies underwrite a lot of the scholarly studies out there, so bias may be present. Call me an equal opportunity skeptic.

Where's the credible sources that show that Iams/Hills/Purina etc. are the great diets that the companies and some vets say they are? Where's the sources to show that corn is a great main ingredient (above meat or even other foods)? Where's sources that show they've proven that their food is superior to raw or anything else? Oh wait, they won't fund those kind.......I wonder why that is.

I know you said you're an "equal opportunity skeptic" but I'm just asking these questions in general and using your post as a reference. I'm sure the premium kibbles (and raw feeders) would love to be able to fund research to show their food is superior, but they just don't have the money because they aren't as big of companies.

The other thing that gives me pause is the parameters used to assess the quality of dogs' responses to a given food: for instance, having a shiny coat. There are definite differences between my dog's coat quality when he eats different foods, but how strong is the correlation between a nice coat and good general health?

What about the proof in the stool? All premium foods I have fed or seen others use have left very small stool with very little odor and are a dark brown color. I was under the impression (I believe I have read this and heard it) that when the stool is lighter, that means a lot of the food just passed through without anything (or a minimal amount) being absorbed (correct me if I"m wrong). Smaller, less stinky poop for me to pick up makes me happier too.
I had a golden retriver pup that was a foster and he was being fed Science Diet. I DREADED picking up after him because there was always tons of these huge nasty piles that stunk for days and days.

And I believe you just said so yourself that your dog had less tartar with Innova than Pedigree.........I've seen the same things myself (when I used to feed Iams and Science Diet and I believe even some store brand, not to mention my dog wouldn't hardly eat that stuff and couldn't gain weight). I think we can all agree that less tartar is more healthy, correct? Maybe unless you're one of those people who has money to throw around and doesn't care about paying for more teeth cleanings.

I just go by what makes sense to me, what I see working best for other people's dogs, and relying on the credible sources I have found.

I totally agree.

 

[VAgirl]

Question:

I just was looking at cat foods tonight and noticed that the ingredient list for Wellness canned cat food (chicken formula) includes garlic. I was under the impression that garlic and related root vegetables are toxic to cats. Granted it's the 16th ingredient listed, but still... if garlic is in fact toxic to cats, what is it doing in this premium cat food?

I'm sure there's an explanation for this. Can someone enlighten me here?

Thanks!

 

[Red Dobie]

Question:

I just was looking at cat foods tonight and noticed that the ingredient list for Wellness canned cat food (chicken formula) includes garlic. I was under the impression that garlic and related root vegetables are toxic to cats. Granted it's the 16th ingredient listed, but still... if garlic is in fact toxic to cats, what is it doing in this premium cat food?

I'm sure there's an explanation for this. Can someone enlighten me here?

Thanks!

Onions and garlic contain n-propyl disulphide, which attacks red blood cells in cats and can cause hemolytic anemia, albeit garlic is much less potent/toxic then an onion. There have been studies that suggest garlic is okay in very small amounts, being 16th on an ingredient list certainly would categorize it as a 'small amount'.

Garlic, onions, and chives are certainly something I would try to avoid in a cat food. Although, garlic as the 16th ingredient likely is not going to cause a problem.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And I believe you just said so yourself that your dog had less tartar with Innova than Pedigree.........I've seen the same things myself

One of my colleagues who is a graduate student in microbiology says that that is because the sugar/starch content of the "lower quality" food is so high, it subtly changes the mouth flora, allowing more tartar buildup

Starches are NOT ideal "food" for the normal mouth flora. They can use it somewhat if it is pre-digested with amylase, but the dog's salivary amylase, if even present at all, is SO low that it never really happens. So you get excess crud, and also promote the growth of bacteria related to plaque/tartar buildup.

 

[VAgirl]

Onions and garlic contain n-propyl disulphide, which attacks red blood cells in cats and can cause hemolytic anemia, albeit garlic is much less potent/toxic then an onion. There have been studies that suggest garlic is okay in very small amounts, being 16th on an ingredient list certainly would categorize it as a 'small amount'.

Garlic, onions, and chives are certainly something I would try to avoid in a cat food. Although, garlic as the 16th ingredient likely is not going to cause a problem.

Yea, that's what I had read. I had thought that perhaps because it was an ingredient in one of these supposedly premium foods that perhaps there was more to it. And I understand that the quantities of garlic are probably very small, but if one feeds this type of food predominantly, wouldn't the detrimental effects possibly increase?

And how is this pet food company (Wellness) better than the others that you guys call out for using dangerous ingredients? Maybe the quality of their ingredients are better on the whole. But their product still includes an ingredient that is know to be toxic to cats. It's a natural substance, but that doesn't mean its any less dangerous. And for this I pay 3x the price of the other brands.

(I'm going to try the EVO now, so I'm not saying I'm using this situation to condem all "premium" foods. But I was a bit surprised to encounter this after all the talking up of that brand in this space.)

 

[Red Dobie]

And how is this pet food company (Wellness) better than the others that you guys call out for using dangerous ingredients? Maybe the quality of their ingredients are better on the whole. But their product still includes an ingredient that is know to be toxic to cats. It's a natural substance, but that doesn't mean its any less dangerous. And for this I pay 3x the price of the other brands.

Great question. Wellness, typically is a pretty good food. I have never fed it, but I do have a client who has fed wellness to their Collie and they seem to be happy with it. Overall, the ingredients are much better then the grocery store foods. And you are right, the qualify of their ingredients are much higher, most premium food companies use human-grade ingredients. I would probably not feed that particular food to my cat. But I also can't sit here and tell you that garlic, in that small of a portion, will cause any ill effects to your cat.

This is an excellent example of a premium food not always being a superb food. In my opinion, Wellness Cat is still going to be a better food overall then the grocery store brands, but still probably not on par with some of the other premium foods. It's important to read the ingredients (and understand what those ingredients are) on your dog or cat food.

If switching to Evo, try to introduce it slowly, even moreso then you would another premium kibble. Evo tends to be a little too rich sometimes for a pet to switch over cold-turkey. Please do keep us updated on how your ca does on the Evo.

 

[VAgirl]

Please do keep us updated on how your ca does on the Evo.

They ate it enthusiastically enough this morning, but this evening they've (both!) turned up their noses at it. They remained uninterested even when I heated it up a tad to allow it to give off more odor. Darn finicky felines! I guess I'll just have to try again later tonight.

 

[Red Dobie]

They ate it enthusiastically enough this morning, but this evening they've (both!) turned up their noses at it. They remained uninterested even when I heated it up a tad to allow it to give off more odor. Darn finicky felines! I guess I'll just have to try again later tonight.

Are you feeding Evo kibble? If so, try adding a little warm water to the kibble to make it 'soupy'. Good luck

 

[VAgirl]

Are you feeding Evo kibble? If so, try adding a little warm water to the kibble to make it 'soupy'. Good luck

No, not EVO kibble. They're still on Nutro kibble for now. I'm just getting them started on EVO canned (I feed both). And it looks like I'll be back at the store tomorrow to try and find another brand of canned food, since they don't seem to be liking the EVO at all.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hmmm
I think you may need to lay down the law a bit when it comes to food.

I don't play personal chef to my dog. She gets the food I put down. If she doesn't eat her dinner, too bad, no more food until lthe next day. After a few days of that, they learn to eat what they've been given. It may sound mean, but if you keep "giving in" every time they turn their nose up at something, you'll eventually get little tyrants who won't eat anything but chopped liver Trust me, I know. Tough love. My mother kept giving in to one picky cat we had until it would eat nothing besides canned tuna - talk about nutritional imbalance - because she kept trying something else every time the cat didn't eat, as opposed to just letting the cat realize "oh...this is all there is to eat....guess I can't make her give me than tuna anymore, I need to eat what is here."


Unless they are turning down a food because of physical allergy or other systemic effects (that is, they are refusing it because they are just being 'picky'...) don't give in.

It will drive both you and your wallet crazy.

 

[VAgirl]

Ok, so I have kind of an interesting follow up question to all of this. I was feeding my cats wet and dry food for a while. I was testing out a few different ones to see which they liked best, and found that they were fine with most kibbles (so I was going to use up the Iams that I have and then buy them a nicer quality one). I also found that they really like the chunks in gravy style wet food, and reading the ingredients, I decided that the Nutro max wet was a decent food (first 5 ingredients are whole meat/broth ingredients, doesn't BHT or BHA, no corn meal, no meat by-products or unnamed meat sources).

However...shortly after I started adding in the wet Nutro, both cats began throwing up. It began every so often, then a few times a week, and then at least one cat was throwing up daily for a while. Both have recently been to the vet and have been determined to be free of intestinal parasites and otherwise in good health. I stopped the wet food, and they both stopped throwing up immediately. Now I have them on dry only as an experiment for a few weeks. I want to feed them canned also, but I'm not sure what to make of this. Did I get a bad batch of food? Is this brand not agreeing with them? I'm willing to try another type of wet food, and I'm fine trying a more premium food, but I really think it'd be best if it was the chunks in gravy style. I hate watching them ignore something until hardens and become disgusting, at which point they'll never eat it. That's their strategy with food they're not excited about (it's especially bad at $1.50 a can!).

Oh, btw...I already tried EVO canned with them...they didn't like it. I also tried Wellness and they were kinda so-so on it.

Thanks for any ideas anyone may have!

 

[wivet2011]

I've had the same problems with finding food for my older cat, not just the finding something he will eat, but also something the agrees with him. Plus, to make things worse, he's supposed to be on low protein for some " early kidney changes". Trying to find a food that meets all 3 is nearly impossible! The canned food I found that agrees with him though, is made by Merrick...all organic

 

[wivet2011]

Hmmm
I think you may need to lay down the law a bit when it comes to food.

I don't play personal chef to my dog. She gets the food I put down. If she doesn't eat her dinner, too bad, no more food until lthe next day. After a few days of that, they learn to eat what they've been given. It may sound mean, but if you keep "giving in" every time they turn their nose up at something, you'll eventually get little tyrants who won't eat anything but chopped liver Trust me, I know. Tough love. My mother kept giving in to one picky cat
we had until it would eat nothing besides canned tuna - talk about nutritional imbalance - because she kept trying something else every time the cat didn't eat, as opposed to just letting the cat realize "oh...this is all there is to eat....guess I can't make her give me than tuna anymore, I need to eat what is here."

Unless they are turning down a food because of physical allergy or other systemic effects (that is, they are refusing it because they are just being 'picky'...) don't give in.

It will drive both you and your wallet crazy.

Yeah, I've tried this with my cat (with foods we know agree with him, he just doesn't like them), and he will stop eating for days if that's all there is... really there's nothing you can do to make him eat a food he thinks is gross...he's very stubborn. It actually gets to the point where he starts eating lint off the floor because that looks more appealing and he starts getting sick because he hasn't eaten. So while that approach may work for some, it def. does not work for my cat! Luckily we've finally found a food that he loves (only took like a year of trying all different kinds!!)

 

[chris03333]

Ok, so I have kind of an interesting follow up question to all of this. I was feeding my cats wet and dry food for a while. I was testing out a few different ones to see which they liked best, and found that they were fine with most kibbles (so I was going to use up the Iams that I have and then buy them a nicer quality one). I also found that they really like the chunks in gravy style wet food, and reading the ingredients, I decided that the Nutro max wet was a decent food (first 5 ingredients are whole meat/broth ingredients, doesn't BHT or BHA, no corn meal, no meat by-products or unnamed meat sources).

However...shortly after I started adding in the wet Nutro, both cats began throwing up. It began every so often, then a few times a week, and then at least one cat was throwing up daily for a while. Both have recently been to the vet and have been determined to be free of intestinal parasites and otherwise in good health. I stopped the wet food, and they both stopped throwing up immediately. Now I have them on dry only as an experiment for a few weeks. I want to feed them canned also, but I'm not sure what to make of this. Did I get a bad batch of food? Is this brand not agreeing with them? I'm willing to try another type of wet food, and I'm fine trying a more premium food, but I really think it'd be best if it was the chunks in gravy style. I hate watching them ignore something until hardens and become disgusting, at which point they'll never eat it. That's their strategy with food they're not excited about (it's especially bad at $1.50 a can!).

Oh, btw...I already tried EVO canned with them...they didn't like it. I also tried Wellness and they were kinda so-so on it.

Thanks for any ideas anyone may have!

How fast are they eating the wet food? Did you start by just adding a little to the dry food or just gave the wet seperately?

 

[VAgirl]

How fast are they eating the wet food? Did you start by just adding a little to the dry food or just gave the wet seperately?

I give the wet on a separate dish, usually no more than a rounded teaspoonful or so at a time. I was giving them some in the am and some in the pm. On weekends, maybe a third portion in the middle of the day. The bigger one eats it a little faster than the smaller one, but neither of them bolts it down. They usually eat a bit, circle to get a different angle on the dish or walk away for a minute, then come back and eat the rest.

Sometimes they'd walk away without finishing it, too (more often my smaller cat would do this). It never really seemed to me like they were just eating it too fast...

 

[chris03333]

I give the wet on a separate dish, usually no more than a rounded teaspoonful or so at a time. I was giving them some in the am and some in the pm. On weekends, maybe a third portion in the middle of the day. The bigger one eats it a little faster than the smaller one, but neither of them bolts it down. They usually eat a bit, circle to get a different angle on the dish or walk away for a minute, then come back and eat the rest.

Sometimes they'd walk away without finishing it, too (more often my smaller cat would do this). It never really seemed to me like they were just eating it too fast...

Try mixing some in their dry. A teaspoon should be sufficient to start with.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Be careful with Merrick! They have had SO MANY quality control issues lately....all sorts of random objects being found in the dry and canned food...I wouldn't trust them, at least not for a while.

Have you taken a look at www.petfooddirect.com? They have practically every brand in the world, including tons of organics and really cheap shipping. Honestly, I would look for something with ingredients akin to Merrick (there are many) and try that instead - either that or inspect EVERY can you open very very carefully before feeding.

 

[VAgirl]

Try mixing some in their dry. A teaspoon should be sufficient to start with.

Chris--I'm game to do that. But what will this do? Do you suspect they're eating the wet too fast and dry will slow them down? Also, I feel like I still should use a different wet food other than the Nutro. They were literally vomitting every day between the two of them. That just seems like it might be related to the brand, since I've fed wet before (Science Diet) and my one cat that I had at the time did not vomit this much...

Also, WTF (;p), do you know why Merrick's been having quality control issues recently? That seems a bit worrisome. I'll look through that link you posted, definitely. I was hoping, though, to go with a slightly cheaper wet food and try to make the dry food a more premium brand. (My logic here is that, from looking at the ingredients, it seems to me that you can get better quality wet food for a bit less money. Whereas with the dry, it seems that there aren't really less expensive brands with higher quality ingredients.)

 

[chris03333]

Chris--I'm game to do that. But what will this do? Do you suspect they're eating the wet too fast and dry will slow them down? Also, I feel like I still should use a different wet food other than the Nutro. They were literally vomitting every day between the two of them. That just seems like it might be related to the brand, since I've fed wet before (Science Diet) and my one cat that I had at the time did not vomit this much...

Also, WTF (;p), do you know why Merrick's been having quality control issues recently? That seems a bit worrisome. I'll look through that link you posted, definitely. I was hoping, though, to go with a slightly cheaper wet food and try to make the dry food a more premium brand. (My logic here is that, from looking at the ingredients, it seems to me that you can get better quality wet food for a bit less money. Whereas with the dry, it seems that there aren't really less expensive brands with higher quality ingredients.)

I would suggest using something other than what caused the vomiting. As for mixing it is so that they are not eating 100% of the new food at one time (less likely to cause upset GI.)

 

[wivet2011]

So, my mom was saying that some of the pounches of moist food are back on the shelves at the local pet food stores. Not sure which ones, I'm assuming Iams or something similar. Are we to assume then that they reformulated the food so as to not include all the gluten and what not that scares everyone now (after all the food recalls)? Just wondering...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

VAgirl, no I dont know why.

It is a shame because overall they are a great, great company with good-quality ingredients! Hopefully they have tightened things up a bit - I am a big fan of their canned food. But I would still check things carefully for a while.

On the Dog.com forum (www.forum.dog.com) where I am also a member, there have been umptee-ump threads of people finding weird stuff in Merrick

http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/25433/336943.aspx#336943
http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/27150/360728.aspx#360728

Etc....

If you search the forum you can find more, it's been discussed quite a bit. I am sure good old Google would help too.

 

[critterfixer]

Hmmm
I think you may need to lay down the law a bit when it comes to food.

I don't play personal chef to my dog. She gets the food I put down. If she doesn't eat her dinner, too bad, no more food until lthe next day. After a few days of that, they learn to eat what they've been given. It may sound mean, but if you keep "giving in" every time they turn their nose up at something, you'll eventually get little tyrants who won't eat anything but chopped liver Trust me, I know. Tough love. My mother kept giving in to one picky cat we had until it would eat nothing besides canned tuna - talk about nutritional imbalance - because she kept trying something else every time the cat didn't eat, as opposed to just letting the cat realize "oh...this is all there is to eat....guess I can't make her give me than tuna anymore, I need to eat what is here."


Unless they are turning down a food because of physical allergy or other systemic effects (that is, they are refusing it because they are just being 'picky'...) don't give in.

It will drive both you and your wallet crazy.

With a dog, you can do this. Not so with a cat. A cat will literally starve itself to death before it will eat a food it doesn't like. More than 2 days off food puts them at risk for hepatic lipidosis and thus death. At the clinic I worked at, we saw more than a few cats get very sick and die this way. It's especially risky with an overweight cat. Do NOT wait for a cat to give in. Get them to eat.

 

[critterfixer]

VAgirl, one of my cats seems to have a very sensitive stomach, too. Finding something she won't yak up has been a challenge. I've tried almost every brand of food and she throws them all up. Purina's Sardine and rice made her throw up very quickly, yet she can (and does) eat their salmon without any problem whatseover. I don't think it's brand so much as flavor. I hate feeding her one flavor only, but since she throws up almost everything else, the only variety she is getting these days is a small bowl of Science Diet Sensitive Stomach dry to go with her canned salmon. I'm not sure why she doesn't throw this particular food back up, but I'm going with it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

With a dog, you can do this. Not so with a cat. A cat will literally starve itself to death before it will eat a food it doesn't like. More than 2 days off food puts them at risk for hepatic lipidosis and thus death. At the clinic I worked at, we saw more than a few cats get very sick and die this way. It's especially risky with an overweight cat. Do NOT wait for a cat to give in. Get them to eat.

It honestly depends on the cat. It worked for mine. It worked for my parents. They didn't starve to death. However, I agree that it may not be a suitable option for all cats, just as it is not a suitable option for all dogs (ie small breeds who can become hypoglycemic quickly)

BTW...current theory = acute hepatic lipidosis is pretty much restricted to overweight cats. And it usually needs to be trigger by a stressful event, not just lack of energy intake.

If every cat who didn't eat for a few days died...we'd have a lot fewer feral cats around here.

 

[dyachei]

With a dog, you can do this. Not so with a cat. A cat will literally starve itself to death before it will eat a food it doesn't like. More than 2 days off food puts them at risk for hepatic lipidosis and thus death. At the clinic I worked at, we saw more than a few cats get very sick and die this way. It's especially risky with an overweight cat. Do NOT wait for a cat to give in. Get them to eat.

It honestly depends on the cat. It worked for mine. It worked for my parents. They didn't starve to death. However, I agree that it may not be a suitable option for all cats, just as it is not a suitable option for all dogs (ie small breeds who can become hypoglycemic quickly)

BTW...current theory = acute hepatic lipidosis is pretty much restricted to overweight cats. And it usually needs to be trigger by a stressful event, not just lack of energy intake.

If every cat who didn't eat for a few days died...we'd have a lot fewer feral cats around here.

Can you cite sources? Just curious because information I've seen says that domesticated house cats are at risk because they aren't getting multiple small meals as many do in the wild. I mean, I can't feed my cats food they don't want. They are not at all overweight but I wouldn't want to mess with my cats liver on the off-chance that they could develop hepatic lipidosis, and in my personal opinion, responsible owners shouldn't take risks like that.

 

[chris03333]

Can you cite sources? Just curious because information I've seen says that domesticated house cats are at risk because they aren't getting multiple small meals as many do in the wild. I mean, I can't feed my cats food they don't want. They are not at all overweight but I wouldn't want to mess with my cats liver on the off-chance that they could develop hepatic lipidosis, and in my personal opinion, responsible owners shouldn't take risks like that.

It can happen at any weight. If you look in any internal med book they will tell you that the "classic presentation is a over weight cat that has been anorexic..." Read as remember this for board exams...

Some references:
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/turner/index.php
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/academics/Current_student/Notes/Hepatic%20Lipidosis in Cats.pdf
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/courses_vm546/Content_Links/DfDx/Cat Case 4/hepatic_lipidosis.htm

Enjoy

 

[dyachei]

It can happen at any weight. If you look in any internal med book they will tell you that the "classic presentation is a over weight can that has been anorexic..." Read as remember this for board exams...

Some references:
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/turner/index.php
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/academics/Current_student/Notes/Hepatic Lipidosis in Cats.pdf
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/courses_vm546/Content_Links/DfDx/Cat Case 4/hepatic_lipidosis.htm

Enjoy

That's what I thought, thanks for the sources.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hepatic lipidosis is commonly seen in obese, adult cats with a history of prolonged anorexia or stress (dietary change, surgery, or illness).

That's what I was saying....fat cats who haven't eaten for a "prolonged" period and then exposed to a stressful event....however, also, never did I say "ONLY IN THESE AND NEVER EVER ANYONE ELSE...."

I said "pretty much restricted" meaning that if I had a perfectly healthy cat, going two days without eating (i.e. NOT "prolonged anorexia" and up to 25% of body mass lost) is not going to kill it unless there's some funny moon cycles out (i.e. I do acknowledge that one of the sources say it "occasionally" happens in cats who arent obese and aren't stressed - but really, everything under the sun can "occasionally" happen to healthy cats - do we really need to stress out about every single solitary thing just because it *could possibly somehow happen* even though the cat isn't in an at risk category?).

If it was just as common in skinny/healthy cats as it is in fat cats, like I said, we'd see a lot of skinny feral cats dropping dead everywhere. They certainly don't eat every day.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

But then again...since I aim to be one of those crazy people whom are referred to in whispers as "the pathologists"....maybe I am involved in a conspiracy theory to have all the kitties die so I can get paid to do necropsy and histo

 

[VAgirl]

It can happen at any weight. If you look in any internal med book they will tell you that the "classic presentation is a over weight cat that has been anorexic..."

Well, as I have one of each (a nice little 9 pounder and a big ol' hefty 21 pounder), I'll just avoid it for both. So I'm back to searching for foods they won't puke up. But thanks for the info. Glad to see it's not just my critters with food-induced gastric pyrotechnics.

Also, another feeding question (which I can't remember if I asked before)...my big boy needs to lose some weight. Not a ton (he's got an enormous frame), but maybe 3lbs, which I realize is a lot of weight for a cat. I am free feeding him right now, which he's doing ok with, but I think he's eating a little more than he ought to. However, I'm not sure how much he should be eating. I know it depends on activity levels and what food you feed in addition to the size of the cat. So I'm looking to feed some dry and some wet (brands flexible), and he's kind of a slug, but can get going with a good play session when enticed. (We're working on that, too.) Any guidance on how much he should be eating? I find the suggested amounts on the bags/cans useless.

If I knew approximately how much to give him without feeling like I was starving him, I'd feel more comfortable moving him away from being free-fed.

Thanks!

 

[pressmom]

Are you working at a vet right now? Because a lot of times they'll have a book with the amounts to feed for certain diets. I know science diet/hills has one, purina, eukanuba, etc. Petsmart online if you go to the order page for the food, they have guideline suggestions of how much to feed. They sell more brands online than in the store, so you may find the brand you're looking for.

Well, as I have one of each (a nice little 9 pounder and a big ol' hefty 21 pounder), I'll just avoid it for both. So I'm back to searching for foods they won't puke up. But thanks for the info. Glad to see it's not just my critters with food-induced gastric pyrotechnics.

Also, another feeding question (which I can't remember if I asked before)...my big boy needs to lose some weight. Not a ton (he's got an enormous frame), but maybe 3lbs, which I realize is a lot of weight for a cat. I am free feeding him right now, which he's doing ok with, but I think he's eating a little more than he ought to. However, I'm not sure how much he should be eating. I know it depends on activity levels and what food you feed in addition to the size of the cat. So I'm looking to feed some dry and some wet (brands flexible), and he's kind of a slug, but can get going with a good play session when enticed. (We're working on that, too.) Any guidance on how much he should be eating? I find the suggested amounts on the bags/cans useless.

If I knew approximately how much to give him without feeling like I was starving him, I'd feel more comfortable moving him away from being free-fed.

Thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I agree, the "feeding guidelines" on the back of the bag are useless, especially for an overweight cat. They are almost always very overblown - basically so that pet food companies can't get lambasted by people saying that "you told me to feed xx and now my animal is underweight andstarving" - unfortunately in America, a chubby pet is seen as a healthy , happy pet - sort of like babies.

There are online calculators for caloric needs of dogs with weights and activity levels, I am sure there are some around for cats too. On The average 8-lb adult cat requires about 25-30 calories per pound body weight daily. For weight loss, don't go below 15 calories per pound. I would say around 20 would be a good starting point for slow by steady loss.

And some quick googling can find you the calories per cup of most common foods.

http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html

A lil quick math, and you're set, and can adjust as needed. Good luck!

 

[VAgirl]

I agree, the "feeding guidelines" on the back of the bag are useless, especially for an overweight cat. They are almost always very overblown - basically so that pet food companies can't get lambasted by people saying that "you told me to feed xx and now my animal is underweight andstarving" - unfortunately in America, a chubby pet is seen as a healthy , happy pet - sort of like babies.

There are online calculators for caloric needs of dogs with weights and activity levels, I am sure there are some around for cats too. On The average 8-lb adult cat requires about 25-30 calories per pound body weight daily. For weight loss, don't go below 15 calories per pound. I would say around 20 would be a good starting point for slow by steady loss.

And some quick googling can find you the calories per cup of most common foods.

http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/dryfood.html

A lil quick math, and you're set, and can adjust as needed. Good luck!

Awesome! Thank you! I had wondered if there was something like this, seeing as for people there is certainly a way to calculate (sort of roughly) how many calories one needs for weight maintenance, for gradual gain, and for gradual loss.

Pressmom--I am working with a vet (in the sense that my cats have a vet that they see). But he's more a wait and see how it goes type, since I've only had my boy for about 2 months now. But I'd rather be a little more proactive and make sure that we're not accidentally adding weight to him by waiting and seeing.

Thanks for all the help, ladies!

 

[VAgirl]

I would suggest that, as a corgi (which were once pretty hard core working dogs!), she probably needs to work harder to get the food she's got. ...I'd try something like giving them all their food in Kongs or other toys where they have to work to get their food if they are that food crazy in addition to upping their exercise.

Question:
Is this something that might work with cats, too? My big guy needs more exercise, and I play with him when I can, but being at work all day, that's really just some exercise at night. So, first, are there any toys like this targeted to cats that distribute the food? And second, is there any negative to doing this? (I'm not really concerned that he wouldn't do it if he knew how, since he really likes food. I'm just wondering if there might be some other reason why doing this for cats/overweight cats is bad.)

 

[ri23]

Look into the Premier Busy Buddy line. They have several different types of toys that you can add food to and you can control the difficulty of the animal getting them out. Some of them would probably work equally well for cats, but I've only used them for dogs.

 

[chris03333]

About the "back of the bag"... you can use these but you need to remember to not feed what you would for the weight of the animal you have is if you want them to lose weight. It is a little more complex (dealing with ideal weight...) I won't get into too much detail as I don't want to get in trouble for giving medical advice on the forum, but you can ask your kitties normal vet to help you learn to calculate the metabolic needs for your cats. You will need to feed them seperate and not free choice though.

 

[VAgirl]

About the "back of the bag"... you can use these but you need to remember to not feed what you would for the weight of the animal you have is if you want them to lose weight. It is a little more complex (dealing with ideal weight...) I won't get into too much detail as I don't want to get in trouble for giving medical advice on the forum, but you can ask your kitties normal vet to help you learn to calculate the metabolic needs for your cats. You will need to feed them seperate and not free choice though.

Yea, I'm working on the separate part. That'll be a fun challenge.

 

[wivet2011]

Question:
Is this something that might work with cats, too? My big guy needs more exercise, and I play with him when I can, but being at work all day, that's really just some exercise at night. So, first, are there any toys like this targeted to cats that distribute the food? And second, is there any negative to doing this? (I'm not really concerned that he wouldn't do it if he knew how, since he really likes food. I'm just wondering if there might be some other reason why doing this for cats/overweight cats is bad.)

Kitty Kongs!! They don't hold a lot of food at a time, but my kitten really likes hers. Also, I can't remember exactly what it's called...some sort of busy ball..., but it's a ball that dispenses food (I think they are made for dogs, but it works great for cats too). They are like the size of a soft ball, but my older cat loves to push it around to get the food out. Otherwise, I found the peek-a-boo boxes for cats work pretty well for putting food in as well...really makes them work for the food!

 

[StealthDog]

In our behavior course, we saw an example of behavioral enrichment for indoor cats where they took a large block of wood and drilled holes into it, just slightly wider than the cats' paw and three or four inches deep. They they placed kibble down at the bottom of each hole and kitty had to fish it out. It worked well for that cat.

Good luck!

 

[Steelmagghia]

Well, as I have one of each (a nice little 9 pounder and a big ol' hefty 21 pounder), I'll just avoid it for both. So I'm back to searching for foods they won't puke up. But thanks for the info. Glad to see it's not just my critters with food-induced gastric pyrotechnics.

Also, another feeding question (which I can't remember if I asked before)...my big boy needs to lose some weight. Not a ton (he's got an enormous frame), but maybe 3lbs, which I realize is a lot of weight for a cat. I am free feeding him right now, which he's doing ok with, but I think he's eating a little more than he ought to. However, I'm not sure how much he should be eating. I know it depends on activity levels and what food you feed in addition to the size of the cat. So I'm looking to feed some dry and some wet (brands flexible), and he's kind of a slug, but can get going with a good play session when enticed. (We're working on that, too.) Any guidance on how much he should be eating? I find the suggested amounts on the bags/cans useless.

If I knew approximately how much to give him without feeling like I was starving him, I'd feel more comfortable moving him away from being free-fed.

Thanks!

Hey! I have a fat cat too! A 24 pounder. He is a Maine Coon, though, so he's not as overweight as that actually sounds.
He likes his food, but he's pickier than you would think. I can't feed him too much wet food in a row, though, or he thinks that something is up. He gets suspicious that he might be going to the vet's office so we just give him some of the Whiska's perfectly fish once a week and Blue Buffalo dry normally.
Anyway, I just read this whole thread and is definitely as heated as I thought it would be. However, there is some really good information posted from both sides.
I'm glad to see that some people are planning on doing some research, because I would LOVE to see some proper, non brand sponsored research going on about dog nutrition. I think it's kind of sad that I can tell you practically everything about a properly balanced cattle diet for every life stage, but there is almost nothing on the animals I own and plan on working with.

 

[VAgirl]

Hey! I have a fat cat too! A 24 pounder. He is a Maine Coon, though, so he's not as overweight as that actually sounds.

Ugh, mine ballooned up to 22. Now he's back down to 20.8 (and hopefully on the way down) and eating only 1/2 cup a day. Poor boy, he's so hungry all the time. But I'm just so darn mean I won't give him any more.

 

[Steelmagghia]

Ugh, mine ballooned up to 22. Now he's back down to 20.8 (and hopefully on the way down) and eating only 1/2 cup a day. Poor boy, he's so hungry all the time. But I'm just so darn mean I won't give him any more.

Haha, yeah, we put a sign up to tell when the cat has been fed because he's good at tricking people into feeding him more than his allotted two meals a day. Unfortunately, he's also perfect this technique on the neighbors, so he gets all sorts of extra treats and I can only cut his food down so much, ya know? He still has to eat something and I'd prefer he eat more of the nutritious food I give him than...whatever the neighbors give him.

 

[Electrophile]

What diets are your guys' cats on? I talked to a vet on VIN from California about how she's reduced the weights on several of her rescue kitties so they can slim down safely before being adopted out. She wrote up some mini case studies which can be found here:

http://www.catinfo.org/feline_obesity.htm#Molly

 

[VAgirl]

What diets are your guys' cats on? I talked to a vet on VIN from California about how she's reduced the weights on several of her rescue kitties so they can slim down safely before being adopted out. She wrote up some mini case studies which can be found here:

http://www.catinfo.org/feline_obesity.htm#Molly

Mine's on Innova. Well, so is my other cat, but she's free fed because she knows how much she should eat better than I do. I thought about getting the reduce calorie Innova for my guy so he could have more bulk in his tummy, but I didn't think it was really necessary. So he's a little less happy, but he's eating a good quality food, so I figure it's ok. I tried my guys on canned foods and they ended up throwing up almost every day, so we gave that up. At least for now.

 

[CanadianGolden]

I had a cat who weighed 18 lb and was not a large-bodied animal (so fat that he had a huge fat pad over his shoulders and couldn't clean himself). We tried everything to get him to lose weight, and then a vet pathologist suggested canned food. He immediately began to lose weight and is now healthy at a good weight of...NINE pounds. He lost half of his weight!

Canned food helps cats lose weight because it is higher in protein and lower in carbs (cats are obligate carnivores and do best on a high protein diet).