What do you feed your dog or cat?

[Red Dobie]

The Wysong link is very informative, and mostly correct except for the phosphorous business....

An added finding in this study was that higher dietary levels of phosphorous did not contribute to kidney disease since the diets used in this study were at 0.9% phosphorous, whereas those commercially available for treatment of renal failure are at 0.3% phosphorous.

I don't know where they found that one (and I'd like to investigate the statistics on it...), but all of the studies I have read DO show a significant link between Phos. and chronic renal dz....They ARE correct, however, in that protein has not been definitively proven to have any effect whatsoever. The whole 'protein causes/exacerbates/induced renal disease' is pure speculation - all theory about protein passage in the kidney and water flow - NOT proven!. Animals in renal failure still need protein - but they need low-ash sources (ie low mineral, low P)

I try to keep the phosphorous/calcium ratio AT LEAST at 1:1, ideally at 1.0 to 1.5 part calcium to 1 part phosphorous.

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[BostonLvr]

I have a question for Red Dobie or any other nutrition experts out there.
I am currently feeding my Boston (pictured in my avatar) Wellness Super5Mix Lamb. She has a very sensitive stomach and I had tried NUMEROUS foods before finding one that didn't make her vomit. She has been doing well on the Wellness but has been chewing her feet a lot. I read somewhere that supplementing the diet with zinc could help this problem. Have you heard this? How would you go about it? Here is the info on the food I am feeding:

Ingredients
Lamb, Menhaden Fish Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rye Flour, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Salmon Meal, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Tomatoes (natural source of Lycopene), Ground Millet, Natural Lamb Flavor, Flaxseed, Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride.


Minerals
Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.


Vitamins
Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Sea Cucumber, Green Lipped Mussel, Chicory Root Extract, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus.


* Wellness uses ethoxyquin-free protein sources.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 22.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%
Vitamin E Not Less Than 150 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 2.30%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 0.80%
Beta-Carotene* Not Less Than 5 mg/kg
Lycopene* Not Less Than 0.25 mg/kg
Taurine* Not Less Than 0.09%

Any input on this food (good or bad) would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Red Dobie]

I have a question for Red Dobie or any other nutrition experts out there.
I am currently feeding my Boston (pictured in my avatar) Wellness Super5Mix Lamb. She has a very sensitive stomach and I had tried NUMEROUS foods before finding one that didn't make her vomit. She has been doing well on the Wellness but has been chewing her feet a lot. I read somewhere that supplementing the diet with zinc could help this problem. Have you heard this? How would you go about it? Here is the info on the food I am feeding:

Ingredients
Lamb, Menhaden Fish Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rye Flour, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Salmon Meal, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Tomatoes (natural source of Lycopene), Ground Millet, Natural Lamb Flavor, Flaxseed, Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride.


Minerals
Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.


Vitamins
Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Sea Cucumber, Green Lipped Mussel, Chicory Root Extract, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus.


* Wellness uses ethoxyquin-free protein sources.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 22.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%
Vitamin E Not Less Than 150 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 2.30%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 0.80%
Beta-Carotene* Not Less Than 5 mg/kg
Lycopene* Not Less Than 0.25 mg/kg
Taurine* Not Less Than 0.09%

Any input on this food (good or bad) would be appreciated.
Thanks

I would nearly bet the house it is a grain allergy. Oatmeal is pretty high on the ingredients list. Supplementing zinc likely will not help with the feet chewing. Chewing on paws is a classic allergy red flag. What types of food have you had her on, and what were her issues with the foods? Was it just vomiting? If she is doing well on Wellness, I'd recommend trying Wellness Core, it's a no-grain diet. I would expect to see a difference (quit chewing paws) within 3-4 weeks but can take up to 8 weeks. Good luck!

 

[BostonLvr]

When I got her I fed her Science Diet Puppy (she vomited daily and could not gain an appropriate amount of weight and had very red itchy paws), vet recommended Science Diet i/d (no change), vet recommended Science Diet z/d (no change)...this is when I gave up on the vet and started looking for ingredients that I thought would be better for her. Started feeding Nutro Ultra (some improvement but still vomiting multiple times per week). Switched to Chicken Soup (Better, but still vomiting at least once a week). Switched to Merrick Turducken (Same). Switched to Wellness Lamb (no vomiting!! but still chewing paws)

 

[2quick]

What is the risk of bacterial infection associated with feeding raw food to dogs? E. coli, Campylobacter, Salmonella, etc...
Andrew

 

[sofficat]

BARF- raw dog bones? how is that safe (i understand the whole splintering thing with cooked bones, but what about obstruction?)

 

[Red Dobie]

What is the risk of bacterial infection associated with feeding raw food to dogs? E. coli, Campylobacter, Salmonella, etc...
Andrew

Although there is rick, it is very minimal. In fact, I have never seen a dog who had any sort of adverse reaction to eating raw. The only issue I have come across was a new raw feeder fed a cooked chicken wing that splintered and pierced the roof of her pups mouth. Never feed cooked bones! The higher degree of risk lies with the handler (you), while preparing the food. Be sure to clean up sufficiently after preparing a raw diet.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Due to very rapid transit time and high acidity of the canine GIT, most bacteria normally present in raw meat do not have *time* to take a hold. The only infections I have heard of or seen in the people I know who feed raw are because of a) poor source of meat, b) immune status of dog was already compromised. Obstruction can happen I suppose, but remeber...dogs also choke to death on kibble, rawhides, etc. It happens in about the same frequency. Stomach acid is enough to digest (raw) bones.

It's a little mind boggling at first, its like holy cow! How do they not all get E.coli, or choke, etc etc (I thought it was NUTS at first)....but the more people I talked to who did it, the more I realized "ok..something has to be going right here because their dogs are not all, their dogs are not getting food poisoning or blockages....in fact, the are doing MARVELOUS! "

http://forum.dog.com/forums/ ---- great forums with a lot of raw-feeding members who can help answer questions. I'm a pretty active member there myself, and there are a coupe other vet students too.

 

[2quick]

Just going through VIN and Pubmed quickly there subjectively seem to be many more negative/equivocal reviews of raw food diets than positive (including reports of pt deaths/zoonotic issues related to feeding raw). What articles would the pro-raw people recommend?

I realize that many decisions within vet med have to be made without concrete evidence; I just think when there is the Potential for serious illness relating to a treatment recommendation, one should err on the side of caution-until proven otherwise.

I'll also add that IMO whatever works for the dog works for the dog, I'm not biased one way or another (I've fed my dogs both EVO and Hills)- just looking for more info.
Andrew

 

[Red Dobie]

Just going through VIN and Pubmed quickly there subjectively seem to be many more negative/equivocal reviews of raw food diets than positive (including reports of pt deaths/zoonotic issues related to feeding raw). What articles would the pro-raw people recommend?

I realize that many decisions within vet med have to be made without concrete evidence; I just think when there is the Potential for serious illness relating to a treatment recommendation, one should err on the side of caution-until proven otherwise.

I'll also add that IMO whatever works for the dog works for the dog, I'm not biased one way or another (I've fed my dogs both EVO and Hills)- just looking for more info.
Andrew

People who jump into a raw diet without first doing their homework may have issues with raw. You must make sure to get the proper balance in nutrients from what you are feeding. I'm not suggesting everybody go for raw or barf, in fact I've said a few times if you are not comfortable feeding raw or barf, by all means, don't. Go for a premium kibble. Just stay away from Hill's, Iams, Eunakuba, 'Ol Roy and the like. It's hard to argue that these foods containing the 4-D (meat from dead, dying, diseased, and disabled carcases) are healthier then a premium kibble consisting of human-grade ingredients.

After working around pets long enough, you begin to recognize the dogs who are eating great, and those who are not. Sure, there are some dogs who have shiny coats, clear eyes, and a full coat on some of the garbage foods - but look at the majority of dogs who are fed a premium kibble, a raw diet or BARF and they are typically free of allergies, have a beautiful shiny coat, clear eyes, little to no skin conditions, and a very strong immune system. I just simply do not see it that much in dogs who are fed a cheap grocery store or Wal-Mart food. Here is a nice site with some insightful info regarding raw feeding http://www.rawlearning.com/

edited to add some more links

Here are some other useful sites:

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

http://www.shalako.com/diet.htm

http://rawfed.com/

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Just going through VIN and Pubmed quickly there subjectively seem to be many more negative/equivocal reviews of raw food diets than positive (including reports of pt deaths/zoonotic issues related to feeding raw). What articles would the pro-raw people recommend?


You also have to take into consideration two points.
1) These studies (and they are very few to my knowledge) are generally funded and run by people/companies skeptical of raw anyways..and therefore can be labeled as biased.
2) The only studies I have found picked 5 or 10 random raw-fed dogs, completely ignored any pre-existing conditions, had no experimental controls whatsoever, usually picking ignorant owners, and analyzed them - hardly a basis for saying they are dangerous!

The problem is, there ARE no scientific papers regarding raw, because no one wants to fund it, basically because everyone is either in the pocket of Nestle-Purina, etc, or have to interest in even questioning the status quo There have been, to my knowledge, NO double blind studies comparing raw to kibble, with the exception of Pottinger'scat study - which came out VERY pro raw: The problem is, there is no money (YET) fund such a project - hopefully there will be in the future - the AHVMA may be there to help some.. Me, I just rely on the hundreds/thousands of testimonials, and the large number of people I know who feed raw with no problems and amazing health results.

The biochemistry/metabolics of holistic nutrition, from herbals to diet, is actually what *I* want to get into as a research veterinarian - I want to prove why they are better, show chemically and metabolically why they are better, etc....Holistic medicine desperately needs more research people because it is SUCH a promising field. Woo research

And nonsense like this...This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.

Psh. Salmonella is in practically every cut of meat on the shelf, and is endogenous to the GI tract. Of COURSE you're going to find it Plus, the presence of salmonella is NOT any sort of guarentee of disease.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also...from a DVM


The bacteria Salmonella is frequently implicated as a major danger from feeding raw meat. A contaminant of some raw meats and eggs, as well as being common in the environment, this bacterium does not appear to pose as great a problem to dogs and cats as to people, due to the carnivore's shorter gastrointestinal tract and faster transit time, which does not give bacteria much time to multiply. According to experts, Salmonella exposure does not pose any real threat to healthy animals. In fact, it's estimated that more than 35% of normal healthy dogs and 18% of healthy cats (most of which eat commercial pet food) are already asymptomatic carriers. One study showed that, despite the fact that 80% of meat samples were positive for Salmonella, 70% of the dogs eating that meat tested negative. The vast majority of human cases are completely unrelated to non-reptile pets. It is prudent, however, to avoid feeding pets non-organic raw ground beef, due to severe contamination problems in the meat packing industry.

Another bacterium, Campylobacter, is also a risk in raw meat. This bug got a lot of media play when a test was developed a few years ago to find it. However, it had been in meat for many years before that&#8212;we just didn't know how to look for it. It has not been shown to cause significant disease in pets.

It also mentioned freezing to disrupt any toxoplasmosis, etc...

 

[Electrophile]

And nonsense like this...This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.

Psh. Salmonella is in practiucally evewry cut of meat on the shelf, and is endogenous to the GI tract. Of COURSE you're going to find it Plus, the presence of salmonella is NOT any sort of guarentee of disease.

Not to mention back when Peter Pan peanut butter was recalled due to salmonella, I believe it was the FDA that said you shouldn't intentionally feed it, but that it doesn't typically cause problems in healthy dogs and cats. So yes, there have been several studies that have found salmonella and E. coli and whatnot in both commercial and non-commercial raw diets, but whether or not they manifested clinical signs wasn't obvious to me. And surely commercial kibbles never ever have salmonella or E. coli contaminations. It's more of a problem for humans. Pretty much don't lick the cutting board and clean up after your dog. I've been feeding raw for about 2.5 years and to my knowledge, I haven't gotten sick from it. I just take standard precautions and wash my hands. No sweat. Same as my own cooked food.

 

[Red Dobie]

You also have to take into consideration two points.
1) These studies (and they are very few to my knowledge) are generally funded and run by people/companies skeptical of raw anyways..and therefore can be labeled as biased.
2) The only studies I have found picked 5 or 10 random raw-fed dogs, completely ignored any pre-existing conditions, had no experimental controls whatsoever, usually picking ignorant owners, and analyzed them - hardly a basis for saying they are dangerous!

The problem is, there ARE no scientific papers regarding raw, because no one wants to fund it, basically because everyone is either in the pocket of Nestle-Purina, etc, or have to interest in even questioning the status quo There have been, to my knowledge, NO double blind studies comparing raw to kibble, with the exception of Pottinger'scat study - which came out VERY pro raw: The problem is, there is no money (YET) fund such a project - hopefully there will be in the future - the AHVMA may be there to help some.. Me, I just rely on the hundreds/thousands of testimonials, and the large number of people I know who feed raw with no problems and amazing health results.

The biochemistry/metabolics of holistic nutrition, from herbals to diet, is actually what *I* want to get into as a research veterinarian - I want to prove why they are better, show chemically and metabolically why they are better, etc....Holistic medicine desperately needs more research people because it is SUCH a promising field. Woo research

And nonsense like this...This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.

Psh. Salmonella is in practiucally evewry cut of meat on the shelf, and is endogenous to the GI tract. Of COURSE you're going to find it Plus, the presence of salmonella is NOT any sort of guarentee of disease.

You're absolutely right. Many of the nutrition classes you will have while in school will be taught by a rep from one of the manufacturers.

The proof is in the pudding. Once you're around animals enough and hear from the owners (and see it yourself) the drastic overall improvements in health, you'll be amazed. Like I said, a few clients of mine feed strictly raw. They have had no vaccinations outside of their rabies (required by law) and have had little to no health issues. They live in a secluded area in NE PA, but do still have their pets around other peoples pets, so the possibility of one of their dogs contracting parvo/distemper/Corona/Lepto is real. In the past twenty-one years that I have been their vet, not one has come down with an infection. This can be contributed to many things, but in my professional opinion, their diet is a huge part of their overall health.

 

[sofficat]

but look at the majority of dogs who are fed a premium kibble, a raw diet or BARF and they are typically free of allergies, have a beautiful shiny coat, clear eyes, little to no skin conditions, and a very strong immune system.

couldn't this be due to the fact that the people who feed raw diets are a bit wealthier (can i assume?) and spent more money on a very well bred dog? it may not be the food, but the fact that the genes and pampered lifestyle of the pet is in their favor...

 

[Red Dobie]

couldn't this be due to the fact that the people who feed raw diets are a bit wealthier (can i assume?) and spent more money on a very well bred dog? it may not be the food, but the fact that the genes and pampered lifestyle of the pet is in their favor...

It's certainly possible, but not always the case. In fact, if you have the space (chest freezer) buying raw in bulk can be very comparative to kibble in price (premium kibble). A fair amount of my clients take in rescues, I wish I had digital copies of the before and after photos of these dogs. It really is amazing.

 

[Electrophile]

If you really want, you can do a raw diet for like less than a dollar a pound if you learn to ask the right people. I usually have $1.50 a pound as an upwards cap (though sometimes I splurge and get them goat ribs or something that is a bit more). Once you've been doing raw for a while, you start to figure out where to look. Like the meat lab on campus across the vet school will often sell me organ meat for $0.50 a pound and occasionally one of the vendors at the farmers market will get me freezer burned humanely raised grass fed lamb, pork, goat, etc for $1 a pound. I even got about 70 lbs of bison meat for $1 a pound just because the animal didn't bleed out right when it was slaughtered, so she couldn't sell it. Dogs loved it just fine!

Plus, you generally don't have to feed as much. Before I knew better, I was feeding my old Aussie mix probably 5 cups of Purina Dog Chow a day. He had smelly poop that dried black and didn't biodegrade for weeks. I switched to Chicken Soup and he was eating 2 cups. Much much better. Then we switched to raw and all the dogs' poop turns to dust in about 3 days. Less filler=have to buy less=less output. Yay!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Feeding raw is actually quite cheap.

And you know how people talk about high priced holistic kibble? Well, look at the caloric content. You end up feeding ~25% to 40% less on the high grade, you spend 25%-40% more on the bag - so basically its a wash, you spend the same amount of money, and get a healthier animal! People alwasy get nervous about prices, but once you work the economics out, it is very affordable.

couldn't this be due to the fact that the people who feed raw diets are a bit wealthier (can i assume?) and spent more money on a very well bred dog?

I don't see how a "well-bred" dog translated specifically into health. A mutt from a shelter can be in just as good health, sometimes better, than a purebred.

it may not be the food, but the fact that the genes and pampered lifestyle of the pet is in their favor...

You know, that reminded me...something that makes me sad...honestly, many (not all, just a lot) of the "wealthy" people I have known really *don't* treat their dogs well. It is the "property" and "ownership" and "lawn ornament to match my BMW " approach.....You know who are the best owners? The low to mid income people who LOVE that dog, because it's their family, not just a thing. Most raw feeders I know fall in that economic category....

 

[sofficat]

Feeding raw is actually quite cheap.

And you know how people talk about high priced holistic kibble? Well, look at the caloric content. You end up feeding ~25% to 40% less on the high grade, you spend 25%-40% more on the bag - so basically its a wash, you spend the same amount of money, and get a healthier animal! People alwasy get nervous about prices, but once you work the economics out, it is very affordable.

couldn't this be due to the fact that the people who feed raw diets are a bit wealthier (can i assume?) and spent more money on a very well bred dog?

I don't see how a "well-bred" dog translated specifically into health. A mutt from a shelter can be in just as good health, sometimes better, than a purebred.

it may not be the food, but the fact that the genes and pampered lifestyle of the pet is in their favor...

You know, that reminded me...something that makes me sad...honestly, many (not all, just a lot) of the "wealthy" people I have known really *don't* treat their dogs well. It is the "property" and "ownership" and "lawn ornament to match my BMW " approach.....You know who are the best owners? The low to mid income people who LOVE that dog, because it's their family, not just a thing. Most raw feeders I know fall in that economic category....

i agree with everything you said.. just trying to grab different theories, and i like to play devil's advocate sometimes

 

[JerseyisCutest]

i agree with everything you said.. just trying to grab different theories, and i like to play devil's advocate sometimes

I'm pretty certain you're the one that I talked to about cats before.............you know you can feed cats a raw diet too

Just wanted to mention that since we've been talking mostly about dogs, but it works for kitties too if anyone was interested!

 

[Red Dobie]

You know, that reminded me...something that makes me sad...honestly, many (not all, just a lot) of the "wealthy" people I have known really *don't* treat their dogs well. It is the "property" and "ownership" and "lawn ornament to match my BMW " approach.....You know who are the best owners? The low to mid income people who LOVE that dog, because it's their family, not just a thing. Most raw feeders I know fall in that economic category....

If you ever get a chance, watch how a homeless person and their dog interact. I was speaking with a colleague earlier this week about this exactly, the bond is typically very strong.

Typically, the lawn ornament dogs are the ones who have behavior issues due to a lack of socialization, structure within it's pack, and overall lack of support/guidance. These are sometimes the dogs you see dumped at shelters, because of course it is the dogs fault that it can not just sit there and be a pretty backdrop for the house and car.

Sometimes I wish there were a 'Dog-Owner Application'.

As far as the price of raw, it can vary according to your source of meats (butcher, super market - bulk, or single cases). You can buy mail-order raw at http://www.hare-today.com or else http://www.rodentpro.com Both are pricey on shipping, but provide a unique and otherwise hard to find option to feeding raw. Your best bet is to get a chest freezer and buy your meat in bulk. As another poster said, you can typically find meat at $1.00 to $2.00 a lb. I like to feed chicken/turkey necks in the evening as a treat, keeps them busy for awhile. Try to avoid weight bearing bones, it's easy for a dog to break a tooth with these bones.

 

[Red Dobie]

I don't see how a "well-bred" dog translated specifically into health. A mutt from a shelter can be in just as good health, sometimes better, than a purebred.

I can see where a person could see a dog who has good structure/conformity and perceive that as a healthy dog, which is not always accurate. Many pet owners are novices and rarely do they study up on nutrition as many on here have. To be perfectly honest, with the knowledge you have on nutrition, I'm surprised to see you're still a student and not a nutritionist. Any hopes of specializing in nutrition?

 

[Red Dobie]

I'm pretty certain you're the one that I talked to about cats before.............you know you can feed cats a raw diet too

Just wanted to mention that since we've been talking mostly about dogs, but it works for kitties too if anyone was interested!

Absolutely, good point! I believe you are the one who mentioned Orijen earlier, it's an excellent food.

Regarding cats, there are actually studies that suggest cats get the majority of their water/moisture from their food. We are now seeing that kibble (even a premium kibble) may not be biologically appropriate for our feline friends. Exciting stuff!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I agree with everything you said.. just trying to grab different theories, and i like to play devil's advocate sometime

I do too - man, you should see me play devils advocate about fancy holistic supplements I am much more reserved about many supplements than I am regarding food because of the lack of knowledge about how these things work. Example - Concept-A-Bitch, from Solid Gold - a wacky mix of potentially progesterone-produing compounds which we have no idea how they will react in a dog (SG makes great food, but the company owner/ or whoever she is makes so many outlandish statements about the diseases her supplements can cure - i mean distemper? come on! She's coo coo for coco puffs). Giving fish oil and C and everything is fine...but throwing out potentially hormonally active herbs which have not been properly researched ( even in "survey" like most diets are) in the species they are being administered to - yikes!

RedDobie, I'm flattered hah... I was a Biochem major in undergad (let the bug-eyes and "why on earth did you do that to yourself?" comment begin now) so I'm pretty into metabolics + nutrition. I plan to become a research veterinarian and study the effects of diet/herbs/holistic med in general on both normal health and disease (esp. cancer) progression. I'm a real chemistry nerd so....I like finding the "micro - reasons " why these things work - ie anti-inflammatory gene amplification, histopathology of target organs like kidneys etc....because although the anecdotal evidence for the superiority of certain diets and supplement regimens are sometimes overwhelming, I still want to figure out exactly WHY, and help give holistic medicine a solid research base and therefore more "scientific respect", if you will, in the veterinary community.

 

[StealthDog]

WhtsThFrequency- Our small animal theriogenologist is actually starting a research project looking at the ability of black cohosh and red clover to induce estrus in bitches. Yay for herbal research!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Wow that sounds interesting!! Great. We really need some hardcore data on herbal therapies, since some of them can be powerful/unpredictable (or do nothing at all - we need to find out before marketing them!)

 

[StealthDog]

hardcore data on herbal therapies

So true. Did you see the study published in JAVMA a few months ago about using lavender as aromatherapy in dogs?

I think the most convincing argument that I've heard for whole-food-based diets vs. kibble is that calling a diet "100% complete and balanced" assumes a 100% complete knowledge of nutrition, which we all know is not true. After all, before we knew taurine was an essential amino acid for cats, taurine-deficient cat food was considered 100% complete and balanced...

 

[silverelf]

Good grief. I suggest you learn what the ingredients are that are in Eukanuba before you prance around here carrying that banter. I'd be very surprised to see you pop back in this thread after knowing exactly what some of the ingredients listed actually are. It's almost comical, if it were not for the poor dog who has to eat the garbage, to read some of this junk. There is obviously an underlying issue if your dog or cat is overweight, deal with the issue. Don't try to feed the dog fillers that contain no nutritional value to 'trick' his system into thinking it is full. I wish there were a 'rolls eyes' smiley as it would be extremely appropriate in this thread.

haven't been paying much attention to this thread, because i've grown very fustrated with it, but i really must say that you are a jerk. please leave me and my dogs alone in the future, or get off these boards. Seriously. that went way over the line.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

All the awesome posts and THAT is the one you decide to respond to?
I haven't seen anyone with a good enough argument to counter anything else, so if you think you have something, go for it. I guess ignorance really is bliss.





Any recommendations for wet food for cats?

 

[Electrophile]

I don't have cats myself, but I hear good things about Felidae, Chicken Soup, Innova EVO, Timberwolf Organics, and Merrick. The Honest Kitchen, which is a dehydrated raw food, also has a cat version called Prowl if I recall.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

I don't have cats myself, but I hear good things about Felidae, Chicken Soup, Innova EVO, Timberwolf Organics, and Merrick. The Honest Kitchen, which is a dehydrated raw food, also has a cat version called Prowl if I recall.

Well we used the dry food from Timberwolf and it worked really really well, I mean, there were huge changes in 2 weeks, but then the kitty was hit by a car (I wish I had before and after for these people that still refuse to believe in better food).

My grandma still has a cat though, but Timberwolf to my knowledge doesn't make wet food, just dry. Neither does Orijen. I looked at the Felidae, but I wasn't as impressed with the ingredients in the wet food as I was with some of Innova's, just wondered if there was any better out there.

If price isn't any issue, Honest Kitchen would be nice.

 

[Red Dobie]

haven't been paying much attention to this thread, because i've grown very fustrated with it, but i really must say that you are a jerk. please leave me and my dogs alone in the future, or get off these boards. Seriously. that went way over the line.

Wow, thin-skinned! I am, however, sorry I came across as a jerk. I am very straight-forward and will not sit here and pat you on the back. If I feel what you are saying is incorrect, or needs called out, I will post accordingly.

That post was not entirely directed at you. Mostly directed at some of the non-sense that was in this thread. I mean, good grief, you are saying dogs are omnivores and a nutritionist recommended Eukanuba or Hill's. Did this nutritionist wear a Hill's badge? Did he wear a vest that read "Ask me how Hill's is the most appropriate diet for your pet!"

(The above post is a joke, so please do not be offended)

I would really have to question a nutritionist who can, with good faith and no bias, say that the Eukanuba's,Hill's, Iam's etc are anywhere near appropriate diets. Please read my other posts and click on the link regarding the 4-D's. Those foods include meat from the carcases of dead, dying, diseased, and disabled animals. Many of the protein sources used are not even digestible by your dog or cat. You are recommending people feed an overweight pet a food that contains fillers of no nutritional value to trick the system to think it is full, how silly is that?

By the way, dogs are not omnivores.

Anyways, I suppose I will leave you to sulk.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/may2003_report_pet_01.html

Here is a great article discussing

failed IAMS and Eukanuba feeding trials, lawsuits, false advertising
finding phenobarbitol (euthanasia) drug in cat/dog food - indicating possible use of euthanized animals (that's what can be in "meat byproduct", folks - no named protein source means just about ANYTHING could be in it.)
the lack of bioavailability studies by AAFCO

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also......I'm on a roll, I need to calm down .....

Basically, if you see "animal fat" or "meat byproducts" or "meat and bone meal" (see near the end of this quote - the following process is the base for those ingredients)- THIS is what it is. Run like hell.

Diseased, disabled, dying or dead livestock, known as 4-D livestock, commonly find its way into commercial dog food as a cheap source of protein. The US government requires 4-D meat be "denatured" with harmful chemicals before leaving slaughterhouses to prevent the meat from being marketed. These diseased, chemically treated carcasses are sold to rendering plants.

 

[Electrophile]

You know what's cool? There have been nearly 3000 views to this topic. Hopefully both posters and lurkers alike have learned a thing or two on a topic that is of critical importance to our profession. Never stop learning!

 

[Red Dobie]

You know what's cool? There have been nearly 3000 views to this topic. Hopefully both posters and lurkers alike have learned a thing or two on a topic that is of critical importance to our profession. Never stop learning!

A lot of interest in nutrition, as is evidenced by the thread views. The best thing you can do with a friend, client, or acquaintance you are discussing raw/barf/premium kibble with is to simply put the facts on the table and let them see for themselves. Nutrition is a very heavily debated topic (this thread is proof!), that's simply because we all deeply care for our animals and want what is best for them. I sincerely hope my brash-nature has not overly offended anybody on this forum. Instead, I hope this thread opens a lot of eyes and folks decide to do a little more research into what they are feeding their pets and looking for foods which will provide their pet a more balanced, nutritious, and biologically appropriate diet.

 

[alonepear]

I'm a first-year who admittedly knows very little in terms of companion animal nutrition, and unfortunately I don't believe I will be exposed to much of it until I take the elective course my senior year. I would, however, like to get a good basis of understanding for this discussion, so I was wondering if any of you could recommend decent nutrition books (textbooks or otherwise). I know we are receiving some fancy new nutrition textbook in January, but I also know it's sponsored by either Hill's or Purina, so I'm not sure how un-biased the information will be.

Thanks!

 

[Red Dobie]

I'm a first-year who admittedly knows very little in terms of companion animal nutrition, and unfortunately I don't believe I will be exposed to much of it until I take the elective course my senior year. I would, however, like to get a good basis of understanding for this discussion, so I was wondering if any of you could recommend decent nutrition books (textbooks or otherwise). I know we are receiving some fancy new nutrition textbook in January, but I also know it's sponsored by either Hill's or Purina, so I'm not sure how un-biased the information will be.

Thanks!

You're going to see that a lot. Many many lectures put on by the commercial companies touting their food, lectures by commercial food 'reps', and literature littered with biased information. Admittedly, fresh out of OSU, I knew very little about nutrition outside what was taught to us by commercial pet food 'reps'.

Here are some books currently in my library at my office I would recommend:
Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats

The Nature of Animal Healing : The Definitive Holistic Medicine Guide to Caring for Your Dog and Cat

Raw Dog Food: Make It Easy for You and Your Dog

Lastly, this is an excellent book for anybody curious about vaccines, vaccinosis, or anybody planning on specializing in immunology.

Shock to the System: The Facts About Animal Vaccination, Pet Food And How to Keep Your Pets Healthy

 

[sofficat]

i still find it hard to believe that all of the vets and nutritionists that work for these companies (hills, purina, waltham, etc) are making food that is 'bad and unhealthy' for our pets. it doesn't make a lot of sense that with all of the resources they have as million dollar companies they would still put "decaying, diseased" crap in their dog food. just a thought.

 

[HopefulUGACVM]

Its always important to look at your sources (which is why they are supposed to be there) when you're evaluating an article for credibility (A pet peeve of mine...). You can't just look to see if it agrees with your opinion.

Do you realize the article your spreading is using information that is almost 20 years old?

Sousa CA, et al. Dermatosis associated with feeding generic dog food: 13 cases (1981-1982). JAVMA 1988, 192:676-80.

Morris JG, et al. Assessment of the nutritional adequacy of pet foods through the life cycle. J Nutr 1994, 124:2520S-34.

Czarnecki-Maulden GL, et al. Evaluation of practical dry dog foods suitable for all life stages. JAVMA 1989, 195:583-90.

On both sides of the fence its propaganda. Be it RAW or kibble. Feed what works for your dog. What works for mine is kibble. They do best on eukanuba, but purina is free so thats what they eat and theyre not dead yet!

And I'm sincerely not trying to be rude if I'm coming off that way. Just tired and my brain hurts (neuro exam this am, histo tom., nutrition fri!).

 

[HopefulUGACVM]

Just want to specify that it was this article not the others, didn't even open those. yet.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/...rt_pet_01.html

 

[Red Dobie]

i still find it hard to believe that all of the vets and nutritionists that work for these companies (hills, purina, waltham, etc) are making food that is 'bad and unhealthy' for our pets. it doesn't make a lot of sense that with all of the resources they have as million dollar companies they would still put "decaying, diseased" crap in their dog food. just a thought.

They are running it as a business, the 4-D (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) carcase ingredients are simply cheaper. There is a market for those who feel that since the bag says it's delicious and healthy, it must be!

As far as the vets and nutritionists who work for these companies, you can't really expect them to tell you the company they work for manufactures an inferior product. They would likely be unemployed. How many times have you went to McDonald's to order a Big Mac and been told to go down the street to Burger King because their whopper tastes better? Hill's/Eukanuba/Iams/Purina etc are simply capitalizing on a market that is very profitable. Their bottom line margin is very distinct!

Ironically, I have a friend from my days walking the halls of OSU who is employed by Purina. His job is to help ensure the food Purina produces at least meets the industry standard. I promise you, he does not feed Purina. In fact, he feeds The Honest Kitchen. For those of you not on a budget, this is an excellent food!

Let's be honest, they are million and billion dollar companies for a reason. They have done their homework, they have widened their profit margins by purchasing the most readily available and cheapest ingredients possible to manufacture a food that meets industry standards.

I liken those pet food companies to McDonald's for a reason. McDonald's, too, employs nutritionists. That certainly does not make the double cheeseburger a health food. There is simply a market that exists for food that has the bare minimum and is very cost efficient.

 

[Red Dobie]

Its always important to look at your sources (which is why they are supposed to be there) when you're evaluating an article for credibility (A pet peeve of mine...). You can't just look to see if it agrees with your opinion.

Do you realize the article your spreading is using information that is almost 20 years old?

Sousa CA, et al. Dermatosis associated with feeding generic dog food: 13 cases (1981-1982). JAVMA 1988, 192:676-80.

Morris JG, et al. Assessment of the nutritional adequacy of pet foods through the life cycle. J Nutr 1994, 124:2520S-34.

Czarnecki-Maulden GL, et al. Evaluation of practical dry dog foods suitable for all life stages. JAVMA 1989, 195:583-90.

On both sides of the fence its propaganda. Be it RAW or kibble. Feed what works for your dog. What works for mine is kibble. They do best on eukanuba, but purina is free so thats what they eat and theyre not dead yet!

And I'm sincerely not trying to be rude if I'm coming off that way. Just tired and my brain hurts (neuro exam this am, histo tom., nutrition fri!).

I'm not sure who you are replying to, but since when did information that is 20 years old become bad information based on the time it was published? I hope you understand, the ingredients in pet foods do not change as much as you would like to think so. The article posted, was very relevant.

Nobody here is saying or trying to convince raw is better then kibble, or vice-versa. Where have you seen anybody saying inferior kibble will kill your pet? (talk about propoganda). I can promise you, your pets do not do best on Eukanuba nor Purina. Sure, I have never seen your pet, but that is like a mother saying her child does best on Hershey's.

 

[ri23]

And I'm sincerely not trying to be rude if I'm coming off that way. Just tired and my brain hurts (neuro exam this am, histo tom., nutrition fri!).

Wow, that's a lot of tests. Good luck and celebrate this weekend

 

[ri23]

They are running it as a business, the 4-D (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) carcase ingredients are simply cheaper. There is a market for those who feel that since the bag says it's delicious and healthy, it must be!

As far as the vets and nutritionists who work for these companies, you can't really expect them to tell you the company they work for manufactures an inferior product. They would likely be unemployed. How many times have you went to McDonald's to order a Big Mac and been told to go down the street to Burger King because their whopper tastes better? Hill's/Eukanuba/Iams/Purina etc are simply capitalizing on a market that is very profitable. Their bottom line margin is very distinct!

Ironically, I have a friend from my days walking the halls of OSU who is employed by Purina. His job is to help ensure the food Purina produces at least meets the industry standard. I promise you, he does not feed Purina. In fact, he feeds The Honest Kitchen. For those of you not on a budget, this is an excellent food!

Let's be honest, they are million and billion dollar companies for a reason. They have done their homework, they have widened their profit margins by purchasing the most readily available and cheapest ingredients possible to manufacture a food that meets industry standards.

I liken those pet food companies to McDonald's for a reason. McDonald's, too, employs nutritionists. That certainly does not make the double cheeseburger a health food. There is simply a market that exists for food that has the bare minimum and is very cost efficient.

Are you referring to Ohio when you say OSU?

 

[sofficat]

They are running it as a business, the 4-D (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) carcase ingredients are simply cheaper. There is a market for those who feel that since the bag says it's delicious and healthy, it must be!

As far as the vets and nutritionists who work for these companies, you can't really expect them to tell you the company they work for manufactures an inferior product. They would likely be unemployed. How many times have you went to McDonald's to order a Big Mac and been told to go down the street to Burger King because their whopper tastes better? Hill's/Eukanuba/Iams/Purina etc are simply capitalizing on a market that is very profitable. Their bottom line margin is very distinct!

Ironically, I have a friend from my days walking the halls of OSU who is employed by Purina. His job is to help ensure the food Purina produces at least meets the industry standard. I promise you, he does not feed Purina. In fact, he feeds The Honest Kitchen. For those of you not on a budget, this is an excellent food!

Let's be honest, they are million and billion dollar companies for a reason. They have done their homework, they have widened their profit margins by purchasing the most readily available and cheapest ingredients possible to manufacture a food that meets industry standards.

I liken those pet food companies to McDonald's for a reason. McDonald's, too, employs nutritionists. That certainly does not make the double cheeseburger a health food. There is simply a market that exists for food that has the bare minimum and is very cost efficient.

haha! mcdonald's and nutritionists..... it's still hard for me to see that companies based on the welfare of animals would use the 4 d's just because it is cheap (do you all know the history of science diet rx diets and how it started? neat story... small town vet, many many years ago, k/d for his many kidney patients who were eating crap, patients got better!). anyways, i don't know of any vets that would willingly do something harmful to an animal (in this case give it bad food) just to make some money, and i certainly can't see the vets who are employed by hills, purina to do that. the ones i know are (seem to be!) really in it for improvement of animals well beings. sigh... can't it just be simple?

 

[Red Dobie]

Are you referring to Ohio when you say OSU?

Yes, Ohio State. I see you're a student there, congratulations! It's an excellent school. I would not trade my time in Columbus for anything, or any school for that matter

 

[Red Dobie]

haha! mcdonald's and nutritionists..... it's still hard for me to see that companies based on the welfare of animals would use the 4 d's just because it is cheap (do you all know the history of science diet rx diets and how it started? neat story... small town vet, many many years ago, k/d for his many kidney patients who were eating crap, patients got better!). anyways, i don't know of any vets that would willingly do something harmful to an animal (in this case give it bad food) just to make some money, and i certainly can't see the vets who are employed by hills, purina to do that. the ones i know are (seem to be!) really in it for improvement of animals well beings. sigh... can't it just be simple?

Please don't think I am saying the vets and nutritionists are purposefully trying to make a bad food. In my opinion, and experience from talking with some of their reps and/or vets they build a food around what they have available. A dog can certainly sustain itself on these foods. They will not thrive, though. They just use ingredients a dog can not use, or is not beneficial to the dog. Let's take corn, corn is a very large part of some of the 'garbage' foods. Dog's can not even digest corn, it has no nutritional value to a dog whatsoever and is often included in these foods as a filler. The employees of these foods that I have come across are very respectable veterinarians. They do, however, still have a loyalty to their employer, as any employee would.

You want to look for foods that have a named meat, and or named meat meal as the first two ingredients and do not include any corn, brewers rice, any type of by-product and ethoxyquin (a pesticide many pet food manufacturers use as a preservative (including Hill's Science Diet)) whatsoever. It would be nice to be able to avoid chemical preservatives, but sadly it is difficult with many foods (not impossible).

 

[JerseyisCutest]

I do happen to know of vets who are in it for the money....they don't do stuff that is intentionally harmful, but they certainly aren't doing what is best for the animal either, not unlike those food companies.

 

[laurafinn]

Dog's can not even digest corn, it has no nutritional value to a dog whatsoever and is often included in these foods as a filler.

Really, the nutrition issue is a bit of a religious war, and I was going to stay out, but I can't. Dogs can indeed digest corn; maize gluten meal is one of the more digestible grains out there for monogastrics and is high in protein and contains the amino acid methionine.

I'm concerned because I do not see a lot of credible sources cited by raw/homemade diet folks. The references provided seem to be in the vein of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true." I realize that there is not a lot of research on holistic medicine out there yet, but the plural of anecdote is not fact. That said, I understand that the big pet food companies underwrite a lot of the scholarly studies out there, so bias may be present. Call me an equal opportunity skeptic.

One of the things I find a little ironic is the outrage with 4-D ingredients. In the wild, scavengers/predators hunt the weak - they prey on dead, dying, diseased or disabled animals, not young adults at the peak of fitness. I don't think your ur-dog would often be eating choice bits off a fresh, healthy, 1-2 year old cattlebeast.

The other thing that gives me pause is the parameters used to assess the quality of dogs' responses to a given food: for instance, having a shiny coat. There are definite differences between my dog's coat quality when he eats different foods, but how strong is the correlation between a nice coat and good general health? Although I suspect a correlation, I don't really know.


PS: My dog eats Pedigree. I doubt the Kiwi version is the same as the US one. Back in the States he used to eat Innova Senior. Premium food here is $100+ a bag, thus out of the question. I have to say, I see only one ill effect from Pedigree (vs. Innova) - more tartar on his teeth.


A few references:

S. M. Murray, G. C. Fahey, Jr., N. R. Merchen, G. D. Sunvold,
and G. A. Reinhart
Evaluation of Selected High-Starch Flours as Ingredients in Canine Diets
J. Anim. Sci. 1999. 77:2180&#8211;2186

Ryan M. Yamka, Susanna E. Kitts, Alma D. True and David L. Harmon
Evaluation of maize gluten meal as a protein source in canine foods
Animal Feed Science and Technology
Volume 116, Issues 3-4, 15 October 2004, Pages 239-248