What do you feed your dog or cat?

[WhtsThFrequency]

Stealth, thanks for the references. However, my problem with that book is that it already *Assumes* dogs are omnivores, and doesn't really look critically at it


ratio of GI tract length to total body length is 6:1 for dogs, 4:1 for cats, 10:1 for rabbits, and 20:1 for some herbivores

Wouldn't this data point towards a heavy carnivore sway?


"True carnivores are limited to what is available from prey tissues such as skeletal muscle and liver to provide energy and nutrients, including protein, taurine, arginine, arachidonic acid, and niacin. Consequently, carnivorous animals developed more efficient pathways to use these nutrients, and have lost the ability to synthesize them from precursors. Being omnivorous and receiving a varied diet of plant and animal tissue, dogs maintained or improved the ability to synthesize nutrients from precursors."

Do they provide any data that proves this improved ability?

dogs digest starch efficiently via pancreatic enzymes and salivary enzymes (amylase)

Digest? Okay I can believe that, if they are pushed to it by being fed grains in the first place. But absorb? Hmmm.

Here are a few other sources...

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore ( They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill.) They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment.

And re: amylase
"Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down process of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things"
Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Angelo84]

I felt the need to throw this into the fray. All of you are using wolves or coyotes as your comparison to dogs. I understand that this is based on the we took baby wolves and domesticated them theory of dog evolution. There is another theory of dog evolution that I particularly like and makes much more sense to me. In short it goes like this: Dogs domesticated themselves. Originally there were wolves that scavenged at human campsites. The wolves that had the least flight distance to people were able to survive better ( ate more because they spent less time running away). In this way dogs self selected for tolerance for and later cooperation with humans. People then selected among these tame wolves for traits they wanted. The full story of this theory is in Ray Coppingers's book Dogs if you want to read more about this other theory of evolution of dogs. There was also an interesting study done with foxes in russia and selecting for tameness--the result is dog like foxes complete with piebald coats and curly tails. Now onto the nutrition aspect of this thread. Assuming that dogs domesticated themselves in this way what did they evolve to eat? Human garbage which would consist of grains, some protein, bones, general scraps. So in this case the food in hills or purina is relatively close to what these dogs evolved to be eating.

Now continue...

 

[ri23]

Good grief. I suggest you learn what the ingredients are that are in Eukanuba before you prance around here carrying that banter. I'd be very surprised to see you pop back in this thread after knowing exactly what some of the ingredients listed actually are. It's almost comical, if it were not for the poor dog who has to eat the garbage, to read some of this junk. There is obviously an underlying issue if your dog or cat is overweight, deal with the issue. Don't try to feed the dog fillers that contain no nutritional value to 'trick' his system into thinking it is full. I wish there were a 'rolls eyes' smiley as it would be extremely appropriate in this thread.

There is a rolls eyes smiley, it's even labeled "rolls eyes." It's great that your first post on this forum was so constructive (that's me using the rolls eyes smiley).

 

[Red Dobie]

There is a rolls eyes smiley, it's even labeled "rolls eyes." It's great that your first post on this forum was so constructive (that's me using the rolls eyes smiley).

How constructive can you be with this garbage? Come on, give a dog food filled with fillers with no nutritional value to make his system feel full? Did you stop to think before responding?

I noticed the rolls eyes smiley, the smiling rolls eyes is not exactly the one I was looking for. I'm amazed some of the people posting this garbage are Vet students or potential students.

Do you expect me to come on here and pat you on the shoulder and tell you your ridiculous views on Eukanuba and prescription diets are right? How is that constructive to follow along in this junk? Do me a favor, do some homework. Point yourself towards your bag of dog food, copy the ingredients and get yourself some experience on Google and look up the ingredients in this food. I literally don't know if I should laugh at you or feel sorry for your dog. Feel free to add another useless response, get to it.

 

[Red Dobie]

There is a rolls eyes smiley, it's even labeled "rolls eyes." It's great that your first post on this forum was so constructive (that's me using the rolls eyes smiley).

By the way, no offense (nevermind, this can offend you, I'm not here to try to befriend you), but if you were a vet I could not in good conscious recommend anybody towards you. I would not buy a leash from you. Eukanuba, pfffft.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Assuming that dogs domesticated themselves in this way what did they evolve to eat? Human garbage which would consist of grains, some protein, bones, general scraps. So in this case the food in hills or purina is relatively close to what these dogs evolved to be eating.

Good point, However, my response to this is always - well, you could think that human beings have adapted to eating all this processed food, fast food, precooked food, packaged and canned and frozen food, when our ancestors ate fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and meat. But is processed food what we *should* eat for optimum health, just because our bodies have gotten used to it? No way jose!

Dogs adapted to eat a hodgepodge of human leftovers etc - the first "kibbles" were little more than that (byproducts, basically). But is that what we *should* feed them?

 

[Red Dobie]

Stealth, thanks for the references. However, my problem with that book is that it already *Assumes* dogs are omnivores, and doesn't really look critically at it


ratio of GI tract length to total body length is 6:1 for dogs, 4:1 for cats, 10:1 for rabbits, and 20:1 for some herbivores

Wouldn't this data point towards a heavy carnivore sway?


"True carnivores are limited to what is available from prey tissues such as skeletal muscle and liver to provide energy and nutrients, including protein, taurine, arginine, arachidonic acid, and niacin. Consequently, carnivorous animals developed more efficient pathways to use these nutrients, and have lost the ability to synthesize them from precursors. Being omnivorous and receiving a varied diet of plant and animal tissue, dogs maintained or improved the ability to synthesize nutrients from precursors."

Do they provide any data that proves this improved ability?

dogs digest starch efficiently via pancreatic enzymes and salivary enzymes (amylase)

Digest? Okay I can believe that, if they are pushed to it by being fed grains in the first place. But absorb? Hmmm.

Here are a few other sources...

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore ( They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill.) They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment.

And re: amylase
"Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down process of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things"
Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995

Excellent post. Thank you for posting that.

 

[ri23]

By the way, no offense (nevermind, this can offend you, I'm not here to try to befriend you), but if you were a vet I could not in good conscious recommend anybody towards you. I would not buy a leash from you. Eukanuba, pfffft.

Do you feel that way about all of the Science Diet and Purina prescription diets also? If that's the case how many vets would you actually recommend?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/#search

Here is a great place to start...... I'd recommend any of these!

I lost faith in a lot of the script diets after the whole "protein causes renal failure!!" hogwash that was perpetuated by the companies...when all research points much more towards phorphorous and ash, which is only associated with low quality protein anyway.....

I do think Hills z/d is the best you can do for some animals with sever allergies - the hydrolyzed protein is about all they can take. The formulas are also readily available to the public, which is (I suppose) a good thing...

But I just can't get over the ingredient quality....

BTW Red Dobie...re: the "i wouldn't buy a leash from you" comment and such.... I know you're passionate about food...a lot of people who are very *into* nutrition (me included) can be a tad overzealous. Let's all try not to fight and share ideas....we don't have to be friends, but we can be colleagues and polite to each other I know it's enthusiam, and sometimes "righteous indignation" , but......let's all play nice

Your sig-thing also says you are a vet - where do you practice at? Do you find it difficult being a vet with different opinions than most others in terms of nutrition?

 

[Red Dobie]

Do you feel that way about all of the Science Diet and Purina prescription diets also? If that's the case how many vets would you actually recommend?

You're still a young pup, but you may learn with time. Veterinarians receive kick-backs for selling Science Diet, Eukanuba, and others. Very few veterinarians sell this food because they feel it is nutritionally sound. Sadly, many vets look at their practice as more of a business/money-maker then an opportunity to provide services to animals. Some are like used-car salesmen, they will pitch a client to buy as much as possible. A colleague of mine sells Science Diet, in fact he recommends it to his clients. He feeds his dogs The Honest Kitchen dehydrated food, wouldn't let them touch Eukanuba, Iams, Science Diet or other Wal-Mart/Petsmart foods. He is a good guy, but not a vet I would recommend. Back when we were in school, nutrition was not a major topic of study (may still be the case at OSU CVM).

Google 4-D, it describes the ingredients in dog food (dead, diseased, dying or disabled). The food is not fit for human consumption, do you really want to feed it to your pet? And you have to use a little common sense when it comes to these diet foods. Cutting back on premium food makes much more sense then feeding foods rife with grain and fillers to trick your dog into feeling full. Your dog is getting no nutrition from those fillers, why feed them? Why not just feed less premium?

Click this link.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html

 

[StealthDog]

But is that what we *should* feed them?

And there's the rub... who would be willing to pay for research comparing homecooked diets or raw vs. kibble? Certainly not Hills or Purina...

Natura has some ongoing research doing side-by-side comparisons of EVO and conventional kibble at UIUC. It will be interesting to see what they find.

 

[StealthDog]

deleted

 

[Red Dobie]

BTW Red Dobie...re: the "i wouldn't buy a leash from you" comment and such.... I know you're passionate about food...a lot of people who are very *into* nutrition (me included) can be a tad overzealous. Let's all try not to fight and share ideas....we don't have to be friends, but we can be colleagues and polite to each other I know it's enthusiam, and sometimes "righteous indignation" , but......let's all play nice

It was more of a joke.

I find it very frustrating that many people see Science Diet and other foods sitting in a corner of a vet office and automatically think it 'must' be good food if a vet sells it. Fact is, we (not me, I refuse to sell it) receive kickbacks from Hills for promoting/pitching their food to our clients. Sadly, some vets would rather up their kickbacks then to give an honest and informed opinion on nutrition.

 

[Red Dobie]

And there's the rub... who would be willing to pay for research comparing homecooked diets or raw vs. kibble? Certainly not Hills or Purina...

Natura has some ongoing research doing side-by-side comparisons of EVO and conventional kibble at UIUC. It will be interesting to see what they find.

You're exactly right. That would be like Exxon paying for a study to improve gas mileage in vehicles. Many people do not realize the change they can and will see in their pets from feeding premium diets. If anybody doubts me, put your dog on a premium food. After three months you'll notice a shinier coat, a more vibrant dog, and an overall increase in health.

If your pet is plagued by allergies, first step should be to get them on a no-grain food. It does not have to be a $50.00 bag of food, just find a food with human-grade ingredients, no grains, and the first 2-3 ingredients listed should be meat.

 

[Red Dobie]

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/#search

Here is a great place to start...... I'd recommend any of these!

I lost faith in a lot of the script diets after the whole "protein causes renal failure!!" hogwash that was perpetuated by the companies...when all research points much more towards phorphorous and ash, which is only associated with low quality protein anyway.....

I do think Hills z/d is the best you can do for some animals with sever allergies - the hydrolyzed protein is about all they can take. The formulas are also readily available to the public, which is (I suppose) a good thing...

But I just can't get over the ingredient quality....

BTW Red Dobie...re: the "i wouldn't buy a leash from you" comment and such.... I know you're passionate about food...a lot of people who are very *into* nutrition (me included) can be a tad overzealous. Let's all try not to fight and share ideas....we don't have to be friends, but we can be colleagues and polite to each other I know it's enthusiam, and sometimes "righteous indignation" , but......let's all play nice

Your sig-thing also says you are a vet - where do you practice at? Do you find it difficult being a vet with different opinions than most others in terms of nutrition?

Sorry, I did not see your last question. I practice in Southwest PA, relocating to NOVA. Not difficult at all, if another vet does not agree with my stance on nutrition, so be it. My clients have seen drastic changes in the overall health in their pets after a switch to premium kibble or raw, most vets will agree that Hill's and the like are not suitable or sufficient nutritious diets. If it were not for the kickbacks, you would rarely ever see a bag of Science Diet in a vet office. Fact is, nutrition was not as big a hot-topic as it is today when I was in school. Over the years, I've converted myself and others to what I recognize as the most complete and balanced diet for my pets and my clients pets.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I am originally from NoVA ! Born and raised in Arlington. There is a lot of great medicine up there! I'm now at VMRCVM.

About kickbacks - honestly, none of the vets I have talked to or worked with have ever gotten any sort of kickback, either financial or otherwise, as far as I know. They receive a profit off of selling food of course, but that is it. (and many of these were vets who were non too thrilled with Hills, etc either but were part of a multi-doctor practice).

However, if there IS truth to the "kickback" theory - do tell! I am always open to more info. But it would probly be better to PM me, so the topic does not get derailed

Also, as a student, I see nutrition is honestly coming back as a hot topic! I have to take a nutrition class almost every semester at my school, and they *do* include things like educating clients on balanced raw and homecooked diets. There was also a recent Complementary Medicine course that was very insightful on herbal therapies, etc. A lot of students I talk to are extremely interested in nutriton....we may be seeing more Natura on vet office shelves soon! If Clinical Path doesn't kill us first....

 

[sofficat]

what exactly is 'premium food?'
red dobie- what do you recommend when a patient needs rx foods for specific problems? i don't think there is a b/d formula made with holistic foods, etc.
despite your pretty negative attitudes towards those of us who are naive, i am very interested in your knowledge of nutrition and what you do differently as a vet.

 

[Red Dobie]

what exactly is 'premium food?'
red dobie- what do you recommend when a patient needs rx foods for specific problems? i don't think there is a b/d formula made with holistic foods, etc.
despite your pretty negative attitudes towards those of us who are naive, i am very interested in your knowledge of nutrition and what you do differently as a vet.

What is the specific issue?

And sorry for the negative attitude, nutrition can be a very frustrating topic.

As far as the b/d formula, it is actually one of the better formulas Hill's offers. You don't 'need' the b/d formula, though. The kibble is still garbage, but it is supplemented with anti-oxidants, supposedly higher levels of Vitamin E & C, and omega 3 & 6 fatty acids. The alertness you will see in an aging dog will come from the anti-oxidants. If you were a client of mine who had a generally healthy senior dog, I would recommend a diverse Raw or BARF diet. If you are not comfortable with Raw or Barf, I'd recommend Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural. I'd also supplement with Super C, 200 IU Vitamin E, and Wild Salmon Oil (1000 mg per 10lbs of body weight) per day.

Edited to say: Premium food is a food with no fillers. A food with human-grade ingredients, it's a food that has it's first 2-3 ingredients as meat. For a good gauge on dog food, visit http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Basically you can alter any raw or holistic diet to meet an RX need...lower fat/calories for overweight animals, a lower ash protein source for kidney patients (eg lean chicken instead of beef), high *quality* protein/low carb/low fat combinations for diabetic patients, supplemental antioxidants and fatty acids for seniors, cranberry and acid or alkaline agents for urinary health, etc....everything is very doable, it just takes a bit more effort. That's basically what they do to the "bagged" stuff anyway - just tweak the formula a bit.

 

[Red Dobie]

Basically you can alter any raw or holistic diet to meet an RX need...lower fat/calories for overweight animals, a lower ash protein source for kidney patients (eg lean chicken instead of beef), high *quality* protein/low carb/low fat combinations for diabetic patients, supplemental antioxidants and fatty acids for seniors, cranberry and acid or alkaline agents for urinary health, etc....everything is very doable, it just takes a bit more effort. That's basically what they do to the "bagged" stuff anyway - just tweak the formula a bit.

You got it!

Vitamin C is slightly acidic and does well in prevention of UTI's, as well.

Raw and BARF diets can seem overwhelming in the beginning, once you've arranged a routine - it simplifies itself. One of the best things you can ever do for your dog is get them on a high quality food. Anybody reading my posts, you do not have to take my word for it. Do your homework, read up on nutrition and be sure to google 4-D and read this article http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html

 

[Electrophile]

What is the specific issue?

And sorry for the negative attitude, nutrition can be a very frustrating topic.

As far as the b/d formula, it is actually one of the better formulas Hill's offers. You don't 'need' the b/d formula, though. The kibble is still garbage, but it is supplemented with anti-oxidants, supposedly higher levels of Vitamin E & C, and omega 3 & 6 fatty acids. The alertness you will see in an aging dog will come from the anti-oxidants. If you were a client of mine who had a generally healthy senior dog, I would recommend a diverse Raw or BARF diet. If you are not comfortable with Raw or Barf, I'd recommend Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural. I'd also supplement with Super C, 200 IU Vitamin E, and Wild Salmon Oil (1000 mg per 10lbs of body weight).

Edited to say: Premium food is a food with no fillers. A food with human-grade ingredients, it's a food that has it's first 2-3 ingredients as meat. For a good gauge on dog food, visit http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

OMG, can I have a preceptorship with you in a few years? I haven't really found much in the way of holistic vets at Mizzou at all. The nutrition talk I went to yesterday was entitled Wacky Diets: Unconventional, Raw, and Boutique Diets. I certainly felt my sympathetic nervous system kick in when I was the lone person (as a VM-1) who raised their hand when the presenter asked if anyone feed a homecooked or raw diet and about 50 bodies all wearing white clinical coats swiveled my way! I sure hope I find at least one find to do a rotation with or I'll just go crazy! I actually sorta grew up in Northern Virginia from kindergarten to 3rd grade (in Springfield). That's also precisely the sort of supplements I give to my dogs and especially to foster dogs with poor coat condition: up to 2000 mg of ester C, 400 IUE of vitamin E for large dogs, 100-200 for small, and 2-6 fish oil capsules a day (depending on size and coat condition). The fosters also get switched from Science Diet in the shelter to Chicken Soup for short term fosters or sometimes raw for long term fosters. It really does wonders.

Speaking of supplements, I found a fish oil supplement that I like called 3V HP Caps. Apparently it is quite potent in the omega 3s and it uses sardines instead of salmon as sardines are not as overfished and are also not as high up on the food chain, so less PCBs, dioxins, mercury, and other endocrine disruptors due to bioaccumulation. But it is STRONG. I got some on my fingers and it seems much more potent than standard fish oil capsules you can get at Sam's Club (what I had been getting).

 

[Electrophile]

I will say that I agree with you about much of what you write, but this is where I think you cross the line. Just like the pet forum fanatics that call them "Pukeanuba" and "Science Death", I just don't see how you can support this position. Give me some data here, or at least some idea into the pathology of how food by "the big three" kills pets.

Sorry I forgot to field this question earlier...I was referring to the massive recalls (and numerous previous recalls for that matter). I wonder if we'll ever know how many dogs and cats died from contaminated diets.

 

[Electrophile]

That's just not true. I don't see how you could look at a pug, a husky, and a great dane and think that we changed their external appearance that much while leaving their internal structure completely untouched. One simple example is research conducted by Royal Canin- they found that small breed dogs have a lower GI tract length:body size ratio than larger breed dogs. They have disproportionately shorter GI tracts. Is this something we intended to select for during breeding? No. Is it something that could affect how small-breed dogs utilize nutrients? Yes.

I went to a fabulous talk at the last AHVMA conference by Dr. Nancy Scanlan, where she spent about half the talk discussing the domestication of the dog. We put such a high selective pressure on dogs to become whatever is convenient for humans, and it would make sense that as our diet became more dependent on carbs, so would the canine diet. Most dogs lost the ability to hunt for themselves fairly early on (this is why we see a lot of feral cat colonies, but not many feral dog packs)...

I LOVE those kinds of talks! Evolutionary biology and dogs, what a great topic. Anyways, a small breed dog with a proportionally smaller digestive tract would be of even greater need of a diet that is easy on the grains than a larger dog or wolf. Ferrets, for instance, have a very short digestive tract (even more than cats) and digest food with just a few hours (four, if I recall). They *really* don't do well on grain heavy foods and can cause all sorts of insulinomas. I would suggest that even if proto-dogs or early dogs did get some grains from humans in the form of bread-like recipes however many thousands of years ago (I forget my anthropology...when was wheat "domesticated" again?), it may not have been an every day occurrence and that likely wouldn't have made up the bulk of the diet like a great majority of commercial diets today. I think it would be neat to ask our grandparents and great grandparents what their dogs ate before kibble.

As for the wild dog packs, there are a great number of feral dog packs all over the world, just not so much in America. In fact, my father who was in the first Gulf war said that the only thing he shot at (he was an officer) in Iraq were packs of feral dogs trying to get into body bags. Ewww...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Speaking of supplements, I found a fish oil supplement that I like called 3V HP Caps. Apparently it is quite potent in the omega 3s and it uses sardines instead of salmon as sardines are not as overfished and are also not as high up on the food chain, so less PCBs, dioxins, mercury, and other endocrine disruptors due to bioaccumulation

Nice! I'm a bit tired of seeing "fish-oil supplements" with wacky amounts of Omega-6 (can we say pro-inflammatory?)....as if we/dogs don't get enough Omega-6 anyway.

And whee for sardines. I have a thing for aquatic medicine. Poor salmon they're so screwed ecologically....

Heehee....I'm sorry, I know it's mean....but the word "Pukeanuba" cracks me up....

 

[StealthDog]

I guess my whole point with this debate is that you have to open-minded in both directions. Even if you are anti-raw or anti-BARF, if you have a client come in with a dog in great health who's on a BARF diet, why try to guilt that client into changing? Conversely, if you have a dog come in in great health who's eating Hills sensitive stomach, and who has terrible blow-out diarrhea on anything else she's tried, why try to guilt that client into changing? Like I said, I spent months trying to get my dog to tolerate EVO because I felt it's what she should do best on, but I couldn't argue with the fact that she just couldn't handle it. She is a grains-and-fiber kind of dog- give her a bit of those and some Wellactin and she is gorgeous. I felt guilty about putting her back on grains because I bought so heavily into the idea that dogs can't tolerate grains, they need high protein, etc, and it ended up being to the detriment of my dog. Being dogmatic (no pun intended) about nutrition can have unintentional consequences.

Electrophile (and anyone else into alternative views), you should try and make it to AHVMA next year! It was fantastic and so good to be surrounded by people with alternative views on nutrition, vaccines, health, and medicine.

Tension breaker- here's my puppy! Ain't she cute?

 

[ri23]

I completelly agree with Stealthdogs post. I think it's great to exchange information, but I really think it's imperative to do it in a non-insulting fashion and be open to other people's opinions.

I do have a question on the raw diets that you can tweak as a prescription diet - and that is the practicality issue. In my experience, I don't feel that a lot of our clients would take to the time to do this appropriately and that is why it is convenient to have foods like z/d to give to animals that really need them. I have seen these foods relieve symptoms in a number of animals and so I definitely see having these diets as a benefit to the public.

 

[Red Dobie]

I completelly agree with Stealthdogs post. I think it's great to exchange information, but I really think it's imperative to do it in a non-insulting fashion and be open to other people's opinions.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but if this thread has offended you - you may want to thicken the skin before becoming a vet. You will come across situations much more demanding and insulting then somebody telling you your opinion on nutrition is a hoot.

I do have a question on the raw diets that you can tweak as a prescription diet - and that is the practicality issue. In my experience, I don't feel that a lot of our clients would take to the time to do this appropriately and that is why it is convenient to have foods like z/d to give to animals that really need them. I have seen these foods relieve symptoms in a number of animals and so I definitely see having these diets as a benefit to the public.

As I said in an earlier post, when new to RAW or BARF, it can seem overwhelming at first. Once you get the hang of it and get on a routine, it is fine. (To me, the extreme benefits of feeding Raw or BARF over Hill's outweighs any sort of practicality issue) You do not have to go 100% RAW or BARF, though, you can simply do your dog a huge favor and get them on a premium kibble. I can't imagine that reaching into a bag of Orijen, Evo, or Timberwolf can be any less practical then reaching into a bag of Hill's.

Please read back through these posts, especially from WHTSTHFREQUENCY. I promise you Hill's does not have any sort of magic concoction or snake juice that wipes out canine conditions or sensitivities. They simply take their grain filled foods, supplement them with anti-oxidants or Vitamins (which the premium foods already have, WITHOUT the fillers and usually without the grains).

Can you tell me what symptoms you have seen Hill's clear up that were not cleared up on a better diet? I promise you, you can't. There is no other way to get around the fact that Hill's, Eukanuba, etc. are garbage. If you ever run into a vet who will look you in the face and flat-out tell you they whole-heartedly recommend one of those foods, thank them for their time, turn around, walk out the door.

Please be sure to click the link above concerning 'commercial' foods that I provided in a few earlier posts. Nobody will ever convince me a dog eating kibble laced with 4-D ingredients (dead, dying, diseased, and disabled) corn , grains, and fillers are essential to a dogs diet. Do your homework on nutrition, your dog will thank you

 

[Habibti]

"The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things"
Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995

I'm not entirely sure this is the best argument for dogs being carnivores. Humans lack cellulase as well, and we're most definitely omnivores.

 

[Electrophile]

Speaking of supplements, I found a fish oil supplement that I like called 3V HP Caps. Apparently it is quite potent in the omega 3s and it uses sardines instead of salmon as sardines are not as overfished and are also not as high up on the food chain, so less PCBs, dioxins, mercury, and other endocrine disruptors due to bioaccumulation

Nice! I'm a bit tired of seeing "fish-oil supplements" with wacky amounts of Omega-6 (can we say pro-inflammatory?)....as if we/dogs don't get enough Omega-6 anyway.

And whee for sardines. I have a thing for aquatic medicine. Poor salmon they're so screwed ecologically....

If you're interested, here's the product brochure. And I made a mistake...they come from anchovies, not sardines. Either way, helps out the poor salmon. It comes in either "snip tip" capsules or in a pump bottle. My dogs eat them like treats, so they don't mind the capsules (you can smell the oil through the capsules, it's strong stuff!). I can't even pick up the bottle without them running over and being like "Arou?"

http://www.ivxanimalhealth.com/DetailsSheet.ashx?id=e75a4469-e205-44f1-b763-964be48b47d7

 

[Red Dobie]

I guess my whole point with this debate is that you have to open-minded in both directions. Even if you are anti-raw or anti-BARF, if you have a client come in with a dog in great health who's on a BARF diet, why try to guilt that client into changing? Conversely, if you have a dog come in in great health who's eating Hills sensitive stomach, and who has terrible blow-out diarrhea on anything else she's tried, why try to guilt that client into changing? Like I said, I spent months trying to get my dog to tolerate EVO because I felt it's what she should do best on, but I couldn't argue with the fact that she just couldn't handle it. She is a grains-and-fiber kind of dog- give her a bit of those and some Wellactin and she is gorgeous. I felt guilty about putting her back on grains because I bought so heavily into the idea that dogs can't tolerate grains, they need high protein, etc, and it ended up being to the detriment of my dog. Being dogmatic (no pun intended) about nutrition can have unintentional consequences.

Electrophile (and anyone else into alternative views), you should try and make it to AHVMA next year! It was fantastic and so good to be surrounded by people with alternative views on nutrition, vaccines, health, and medicine.

Tension breaker- here's my puppy! Ain't she cute?

No dog is a grains type of dog. That is like saying your child is a McDonald's type of kid. Evo is a very very rich formula, I have had a few dogs not do well on it before, as well. I recommend Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural, and remember, since the food contains no fillers - you typically feed less. Diarrhea is common in new dogs making the switch, either because the food is too rich or else they are overfed (owner is feeding by the garbage food guidelines). Evo can be a tricky food. The fact that dogs do not need and mostly can not tolerate grains is not an idea, and I applaud you for at least giving the premium foods a chance. Try putting her on Timberwolf, Flint River, Eagle Pack, or Orijen. Supplement a little fiber into her diet to help offset the initial diarrhea that may come (throw in a little canned pumpkin).

I never pull the guilt card when working with clients. I tell them and show them the benefits of a better food will have for their pet. I show them before/after photos of other clients dogs/cats who have made the switch. I put it all out on the table, even the most novice of pet owners already understand a healthier diet leads to a healthier dog, they just don't understand that Hill's is NOT healthy, and in fact, is one of the worst foods out there. Please read the article I posted above concerning what the ingredients in dog food are.

As far as the 'alternative' views about vaccines, nutrition, and medicine. Please understand, yearly vaccinations are a source of income for your vet. As is selling you Hill's and other foods. Please google vaccinosis, some very good information on the net concerning this. My clients do not get yearly vaccinations. They do, however, have their pets titers tested yearly which makes so much sense because why would you continue to vaccinate your dog if they have already built up the immunity? We test the titers yearly, on average we are vaccinating every 3-5 years. I have a group of clients who feed solely a Raw and BARF diet, they have never vaccinated. Their dogs immune system is so strong from the superior diet, they have been able to fight off any infection or disease. (They do, however, still vaccinate against rabies as state law requires).

With all of this said, as dog owners, people need to do their homework on vaccinosis, nutrition, and the overall well-being of their animals. Don't simply listen to me or any other vet because we are vets, do your own homework and you will likely come to the same conclusion many others have - Hills/Eukanuba/Iams ect are garbage. I tell my clients the same, I tell them that I can give my opinion on something but I rather they let me give them all the facts, let them weigh those facts, then make an educated decision on what they feel is best for their dogs. I have never had a client say they would like to continue feeding any of the garbage foods, that's a lie, there was a client in 2002 who's daughter wanted to continue feeding a food because she liked the colors of the food. Mind you, the child was 4 and loved the colors and bone shapes of the kibble

By the way, great looking dog you have there

 

[Red Dobie]

If you're interested, here's the product brochure. And I made a mistake...they come from anchovies, not sardines. Either way, helps out the poor salmon. It comes in either "snip tip" capsules or in a pump bottle. My dogs eat them like treats, so they don't mind the capsules (you can smell the oil through the capsules, it's strong stuff!). I can't even pick up the bottle without them running over and being like "Arou?"

http://www.ivxanimalhealth.com/DetailsSheet.ashx?id=e75a4469-e205-44f1-b763-964be48b47d7

Just a little bit of info to toss in here. If using the pump bottle, take a capsule of Vitamin E, puncture it, and pour it's contents into the bottle and mix. All oils oxide over time, the Vitamin E helps to slow this process.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm not entirely sure this is the best argument for dogs being carnivores. Humans lack cellulase as well, and we're most definitely omnivores.

Oh, but its not my only arguement A few mild similarities between a carniovore and an omnivore does not make one the other. Look how different canine and human teeth are. Look how different the Gi tract length differs. Look at other enzymes concentrations, pH, etc. Besides the lack of cellulase in the human body is compensated for by our longer digestive tract, especially colon, where "extra" processing +/- fermentation of plant products takes place (certainly not as much as a hindgut fermenter like a horse - but yup, it happens!)

 

[ri23]

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but if this thread has offended you - you may want to thicken the skin before becoming a vet. You will come across situations much more demanding and insulting then somebody telling you your opinion on nutrition is a hoot.


As I said in an earlier post, when new to RAW or BARF, it can seem overwhelming at first. Once you get the hang of it and get on a routine, it is fine. (To me, the extreme benefits of feeding Raw or BARF over Hill's outweighs any sort of practicality issue) You do not have to go 100% RAW or BARF, though, you can simply do your dog a huge favor and get them on a premium kibble. I can't imagine that reaching into a bag of Orijen, Evo, or Timberwolf can be any less practical then reaching into a bag of Hill's.

Please read back through these posts, especially from WHTSTHFREQUENCY. I promise you Hill's does not have any sort of magic concoction or snake juice that wipes out canine conditions or sensitivities. They simply take their grain filled foods, supplement them with anti-oxidants or Vitamins (which the premium foods already have, WITHOUT the fillers and usually without the grains).

Can you tell me what symptoms you have seen Hill's clear up that were not cleared up on a better diet? I promise you, you can't. There is no other way to get around the fact that Hill's, Eukanuba, etc. are garbage. If you ever run into a vet who will look you in the face and flat-out tell you they whole-heartedly recommend one of those foods, thank them for their time, turn around, walk out the door.

Please be sure to click the link above concerning 'commercial' foods that I provided in a few earlier posts. Nobody will ever convince me a dog eating kibble laced with 4-D ingredients (dead, dying, diseased, and disabled) corn , grains, and fillers are essential to a dogs diet. Do your homework on nutrition, your dog will thank you

I'm actually not very easily insulted, but part of SDN's terms and conditions include not insulting other members of the forum, which your "I wouldn't recommend somone buy a leash from you" probably crossed the line. As a side note I've actually been so surprised and impressed over my time exploring the profession and my time so far in vet school of the willingness and even eagerness of very accomplished vets to take the time to talk with and educate aspiring veterinarians. I'm sure this extrapolates to most of the vet schools - but we've had some absolutely fabulous guest lecturers (and professors for that matter) and the are all so excited to help students.

Now back on track - When I asked my question of you it was for those clients that were not willing to put in the time and research on a raw diet. That's fantastic that some will, but you must agree that despite what their vet tells them some will say they don't have the time.

As for symptoms that I've seen clear up - most notably I know several dogs on z/d for allergies that have done very well on the food. Granted, I haven't seen them on a similiar raw diet so I undertand that I can't compare those foods.

 

[Electrophile]

Yes, from what I have read, the body uses up vitamin E anyways to keep the oil from oxidizing (going rancid) as it is being used. If I recall, that formulation has some vitamin E in it, but I give my 4 dogs (2 Malinois, 1 Malinois/GSD cross, and a husky/Rottweiler cross) 400 IUE of vitamin E a day for this purpose. Plus it's such a nice benefit to their coat on its own and a good antioxidant for other purposes. I personally started taking fish oil and vitamin E last winter and my skin was not nearly as dry as previous years. Otherwise, I dry out like an alligator on those old Lubriderm commercials, even with lotions!

I think I mentioned this earlier on this thread on Innova EVO, but I know someone who was having similar trouble with it being too rich. It was helping the allergies, but wasn't helping the loose stools. She starting "diluting" the EVO with some Canidae all life stages and that seemed to help a lot.

On the client side of things, a friend of mine from work (non-veterinary related) has a 15 year old American cocker spaniel. She's been kept in general very good overall health by being on Innova EVO (which she feeds currently), Solid Gold, and other super premium brands. Unfortunately the dog started to show signs of congestive heart failure and the vet "prescribed" her a Hill's prescription diet along with a beta blocker and a diuretic for the pulmonary edema for being "low salt" for her heart. (aside: I always found that "prescription" diets are misleading as the FDA does not consider them as such and does not regulate them) She took one look at the ingredients when she got home and took them back to return them. On the next visit, when she told her vet that she didn't want to feed the Hill's, her vet literally YELLED at her for not giving the Hill's diet, accused her not caring for her dog's heart, and she went home in tears. That is completely atrocious. Did he call Hill's and ask whether that formula would be lower in sodium than Innova EVO? No, of course not, he just bought into the party line. Despicable.

On the vaccination issue, I am the same way. I'm a minimal vaccinator, especially after my now 6 month old puppy had what I suspect to be a vaccine reaction to the DHPP at 3 months. I'm going to get his distemper/parvo titer tested and if it's good to go, I'm not vaccinating him for it again. With my older dogs, we do titers every few years and the 3 year rabies by law.

 

[sofficat]

ok- i have a few questions, especially for red dobie...
-vaccinosis? you are the first vet i have ever heard to use that term. i find it interesting that it is not even in the newest edition of our vet dictionary and all of the vets that i have talked to about it haven't even heard of it (granted it hasn't been many, but still). Plus, some of the info (most?) i find on it seems unlikely-vaccines cause spondylosis, uti's, seizures (it is stated in the article it occurs often, not rarely like seen in practices), licking the air... all of these claimed to have been because of vaccines (any proof out there?). do you think that risk of parvo vax outweighs risk of parvo (as a pup)? etc or are you mainly talking about vax every year.
-since so much dog food is 'garbage,' what do the vet reps of those companies have to say in return? i wish this discussion would have been going on a few weeks back when we had the purina rep come in! with that in mind, this is the ingredient list of Timberwolf Organic Wild & Natural

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL – Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.


Analysis:
Protein: 36%
Fat: 18%
Fiber: 2.5%
Moisture: 9%
ASH: 5%
Kcal/kg: 3,980
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.4%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.2%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG
COPPER: 16mg/KG

i was under the impression chicken meal is NOT what you want as the first ingredient and that omega 6 should be less than omega 3 (please correct me if i'm wrong... i'm still learning!)
-shoot, i had more questions but now i forgot oh yea- do you have a hard time switching 'those clients' to something premium when all their life they have feed ol roy? as in 'those clients' i mean the ones that don't believe in HWP and rarely bring their pet to the vet b/c when they were growing up pets were not (and still not to them) considered family, etc.
ok- thanks for all the input (and putting up with me!) i'll be back!

 

[JerseyisCutest]

I'm actually not very easily insulted, but part of SDN's terms and conditions include not insulting other members of the forum, which your "I wouldn't recommend somone buy a leash from you" probably crossed the line. As a side note I've actually been so surprised and impressed over my time exploring the profession and my time so far in vet school of the willingness and even eagerness of very accomplished vets to take the time to talk with and educate aspiring veterinarians. I'm sure this extrapolates to most of the vet schools - but we've had some absolutely fabulous guest lecturers (and professors for that matter) and the are all so excited to help students.

Now back on track - When I asked my question of you it was for those clients that were not willing to put in the time and research on a raw diet. That's fantastic that some will, but you must agree that despite what their vet tells them some will say they don't have the time.

As for symptoms that I've seen clear up - most notably I know several dogs on z/d for allergies that have done very well on the food. Granted, I haven't seen them on a similiar raw diet so I undertand that I can't compare those foods.

Funny you'll bring up SDN's terms and say what you did after telling me "I hope you don't get into OSU".........do you not believe that "crossed the line"? Let's not be hypocritical.


And I guess my opinions on nutrition and vaccines aren't so silly, now are they?

 

[Red Dobie]

I'm actually not very easily insulted, but part of SDN's terms and conditions include not insulting other members of the forum, which your "I wouldn't recommend somone buy a leash from you" probably crossed the line. As a side note I've actually been so surprised and impressed over my time exploring the profession and my time so far in vet school of the willingness and even eagerness of very accomplished vets to take the time to talk with and educate aspiring veterinarians. I'm sure this extrapolates to most of the vet schools - but we've had some absolutely fabulous guest lecturers (and professors for that matter) and the are all so excited to help students.

The leash comment was more of a joke, I do understand you are a young pup in vet school. Should you have been a vet, saying Hill's was a great food, the leash comment would have been appropriate

Now back on track - When I asked my question of you it was for those clients that were not willing to put in the time and research on a raw diet. That's fantastic that some will, but you must agree that despite what their vet tells them some will say they don't have the time.

I will say some clients just don't care enough to put in the effort. The research to see that Hill's/Eukanuba are garbage requires very minimal effort, though. Simply read the ingredients, google them, and [SIZE=-1]voilà. As far as the raw and BARF diets, they require a little more in-depth research and understanding, you want to make sure you are giving a balnced diet and not just tossing down a plate of ground beef. [/SIZE]

As for symptoms that I've seen clear up - most notably I know several dogs on z/d for allergies that have done very well on the food. Granted, I haven't seen them on a similiar raw diet so I undertand that I can't compare those foods.

The major food allergy you will come across as a vet is grains. Get them off grains, you will see a difference. When clients of mine have an allergy issue, I put them on a very bland diet, we then begin to add in different ingredients to find what the allergen causing the issue is. It can also sometimes be a protein from beef or chicken, we then substitute another protein source. Hill's z/d is basically a very bland diet (still contains fillers and the '4-d' ingredients) that does not contain wheat, beef or chicken. For the same price you pay for Hill's, why not get them on a permium diet that does not contain the fillers and dead, diseased, dying, or disabled animal ingredients?

Some of you may have thought the animal parts in hotdogs or sausages were gross, wait till you read what is in your 'commercial' foods.

Again, I can't stress this enough, there are alternatives to Raw and BARF. If you're not comfortable with either, by all means go to a premium kibble.

 

[StealthDog]

As far as the 'alternative' views about vaccines, nutrition, and medicine... Please google vaccinosis, some very good information on the net concerning this.

Aw, give me a little credit, go check out the vaccine thread on the pre-vet board!

I re-founded my school's Holistic Medicine club, and am very active in trying to alternative views (including feeding raw or homecooked) represented via talks by private practitioners, etc. And I still say that raw is not going to be the best for every dog My girl gets canned pumpkin mixed into her Innova every night, plus probiotics, to keep her tummy happy. I tried EVO for three months with every possible feeding method I could think of, feeding small meals frequently or one large meal, less food, more food, mixing with pumpkin, adding yogurt or kefir, tried Red Meat and regular EVO, and she spent three months with anything from watery diarrhea to soft-serve stools. As soon as I switched her to Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, her stools cleared right up, and she maintained the coat and energy level she had on the EVO. She does well on most "standard" type kibbles, but I still consider them premium brands- Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Innova, etc. A TCVM perspective agrees that there are certain constitutions that don't do as well with high protein diets.

I am doing a little bit of playing devil's advocate here, so don't take everything I say too seriously!

 

[StealthDog]

By the way, great looking dog you have there

Thanks I sure like her.

 

[ri23]

Funny you'll bring up SDN's terms and say what you did after telling me "I hope you don't get into OSU".........do you not believe that "crossed the line"? Let's not be hypocritical.


And I guess my opinions on nutrition and vaccines aren't so silly, now are they?

If you've read previous posts of mine I've actually mentioned -I know that sometimes I should take my own advice on being nice on this forum. I've even commented that that is why I stopped debating with you. My comment was not based on your ideas, rather the way you were answering questions or responding to posts.

 

[ri23]

The leash comment was more of a joke, I do understand you are a young pup in vet school. Should you have been a vet, saying Hill's was a great food, the leash comment would have been appropriate


I will say some clients just don't care enough to put in the effort. The research to see that Hill's/Eukanuba are garbage requires very minimal effort, though. Simply read the ingredients, google them, and [SIZE=-1]voilà. As far as the raw and BARF diets, they require a little more in-depth research and understanding, you want to make sure you are giving a balnced diet and not just tossing down a plate of ground beef. [/SIZE]


The major food allergy you will come across as a vet is grains. Get them off grains, you will see a difference. When clients of mine have an allergy issue, I put them on a very bland diet, we then begin to add in different ingredients to find what the allergen causing the issue is. It can also sometimes be a protein from beef or chicken, we then substitute another protein source. Hill's z/d is basically a very bland diet (still contains fillers and the '4-d' ingredients) that does not contain wheat, beef or chicken. For the same price you pay for Hill's, why not get them on a permium diet that does not contain the fillers and dead, diseased, dying, or disabled animal ingredients?

Some of you may have thought the animal parts in hotdogs or sausages were gross, wait till you read what is in your 'commercial' foods.

Again, I can't stress this enough, there are alternatives to Raw and BARF. If you're not comfortable with either, by all means go to a premium kibble.

I appreciate the information.

 

[Red Dobie]

ok- i have a few questions, especially for red dobie...
-vaccinosis? you are the first vet i have ever heard to use that term. i find it interesting that it is not even in the newest edition of our vet dictionary and all of the vets that i have talked to about it haven't even heard of it (granted it hasn't been many, but still). Plus, some of the info (most?) i find on it seems unlikely-vaccines cause spondylosis, uti's, seizures (it is stated in the article it occurs often, not rarely like seen in practices), licking the air... all of these claimed to have been because of vaccines (any proof out there?). do you think that risk of parvo vax outweighs risk of parvo (as a pup)? etc or are you mainly talking about vax every year.
-since so much dog food is 'garbage,' what do the vet reps of those companies have to say in return? i wish this discussion would have been going on a few weeks back when we had the purina rep come in! with that in mind, this is the ingredient list of Timberwolf Organic Wild & Natural

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL – Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.


Analysis:
Protein: 36%
Fat: 18%
Fiber: 2.5%
Moisture: 9%
ASH: 5%
Kcal/kg: 3,980
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.4%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.2%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG
COPPER: 16mg/KG

i was under the impression chicken meal is NOT what you want as the first ingredient and that omega 6 should be less than omega 3 (please correct me if i'm wrong... i'm still learning!)
-shoot, i had more questions but now i forgot oh yea- do you have a hard time switching 'those clients' to something premium when all their life they have feed ol roy? as in 'those clients' i mean the ones that don't believe in HWP and rarely bring their pet to the vet b/c when they were growing up pets were not (and still not to them) considered family, etc.
ok- thanks for all the input (and putting up with me!) i'll be back!

Excellent questions. You will not hear many vets discuss vaccinosis, there are a few reasons for this. 1) Yearly vaccines are a good source of income (I won't lie). 2) The threat of liability, some vets are not comfortable with having a dog not have it's yearly vaccinations (they don't trust the titers test, which makes no sense - I know) and are worried about being sued for giving advice and the dog becoming ill or dying. 3) As was pointed out in a post about nutrition, who's going to fund the studies? Certainly not the pharmaceutical companies supplying the vaccines, it would be silly. The studies do suggest over-vaccinating does lead allergies, cancer, and other conditions. UTI's will not typically come from a healthy dog, the bacteria has to have a suitable host, a healthy dog does not provide that.

We recommend vaccinating initially with a parvo/distemper MLV combination as pups at 6-8 weeks, 9-11 weeks, and 14-16 weeks. At 16 weeks, they receive their rabies vaccination. I never recommend getting the lepto or corona, unless of course you live in an area where they are prevalent such as TX (even then, the lepto is not 100%). For those who live in a suburban area where their dogs will come into contact with other dogs, I do recommend getting the initial parvo vaccination. I have clients who live in a secluded part of NE PA who feed raw and have never vaccinated, not once have any of their animals come down with anything, it's amazing to be honest. After the initial pup vax, we test titers yearly - if the parvo levels have dropped, we vaccinate for parvo (same with distemper). We try to set up a personalized regimen for each client, since we've started this we do not see nearly the amount of allergies we once did (from pups started on this protocol from the beginning).

As far as the ingredient list - Ideally, the first ingredient of a food should be either a specified meat meal, or a specified fresh meat type followed by a meal. Your omega-3's should be higher then your 6's, I supplement with Grizzly Wild Salmon Oil 1000 mg per 10 lbs of body weight per day to achieve this. It's important to analyze the ingredients in your food to recognize what is missing, then supplement accordingly. The ingredients you do not want are things like corn meal, wheat, etc. Edit to add: Some other ingredients you DO want to avoid are 'beef byproducts' or any other _____ byproducts. A specified ____ meal is fine and not inferior to whole, fresh meats.

I will be completely honest with you, I consult with my clients before taking them on. I let them know how I feel about nutrition, vaccinations, and behavior-modification. We then discuss whether I am the right vet for them, and if not I will tell them. (I will never turn away an emergency situation, though). If I feel that I may not be the right vet for them, and after telling them this, they still request my services, I will provide them. I think it's important for a vet and a client to be on the same page, though. None of my clients have had any issue switching to premium kibble or a raw/barf diet. If you lay the facts out on the table for them, compare/explain the ingredients in both the premium kibble and the Hill's type foods they are always more then willing to give the better diet a chance. The before/after pictures of other clients animals help, as well. Those who have 'backyard' dogs (dogs that are left in the backyard basically as lawn ornaments, get no social interaction with the family, and rarely are excercised) still have an obligation to provide the best possible diet for their pet. I understand they may not care as much as those who look at their pets as their children, but that does not relieve them of obligations. They also have an obligation to provide socialization, excercise and a suitable living environment. Sadly, they renege on those obligations as well.

Sorry if I missed any of your questions, I will go back through and read your questions and edit my post accordingly to include any questions I have missed.

 

[Red Dobie]

Aw, give me a little credit, go check out the vaccine thread on the pre-vet board!

I re-founded my school's Holistic Medicine club, and am very active in trying to alternative views (including feeding raw or homecooked) represented via talks by private practitioners, etc. And I still say that raw is not going to be the best for every dog My girl gets canned pumpkin mixed into her Innova every night, plus probiotics, to keep her tummy happy. I tried EVO for three months with every possible feeding method I could think of, feeding small meals frequently or one large meal, less food, more food, mixing with pumpkin, adding yogurt or kefir, tried Red Meat and regular EVO, and she spent three months with anything from watery diarrhea to soft-serve stools. As soon as I switched her to Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, her stools cleared right up, and she maintained the coat and energy level she had on the EVO. She does well on most "standard" type kibbles, but I still consider them premium brands- Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, Innova, etc. A TCVM perspective agrees that there are certain constitutions that don't do as well with high protein diets.

I am doing a little bit of playing devil's advocate here, so don't take everything I say too seriously!

Evo can be difficult on some dogs systems, and you're correct, it is because it is so rich. Eagle Pack, Solid Gold, and Innova are all great foods. Some do contain grains, but all contain human-grade ingredients and have no fillers which makes a huge difference.

I'm happy to hear your dog is doing well

 

[sofficat]

red dobie- do you carry the food you recommend in your clinic? if not, do you recommend to your clients to order them online (since they can be hard to find)? do you work with other vets in your clinic? so the chicken meal as the first ingredient isn't great, but it is ok if there is no filler ingredients? i'm so glad you jumped on this board. all of the vets i have worked with in the past have *always* recommended hills or purina or waltham. when i was 19 i started questioning why "hills is completely superior to all other food" (actual quote from a vet!). thanks for getting me more involved in nutrition (btw... i am a vegetarian and i don't think i'll ever do raw diets because, honestly, i don't want meat in my kitchen! however, i will educate myself as best i can to give my clients the full perspective and help them choose what they/we think is best)
one more thing... so anything with corn meal, wheat gluten, rice in the ingredients list is bad, right?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Let's look at the top ingredients in SD adult....let's equate them with more familair "human" terms so we can picture what we are feeding...

Chicken (not chicken meal -- "chicken": inclused the water inherent in meat....so in reality....actual chicken protein (ie, not chicken water) is MUCH lower down on the ingredient list than this)

Corn meal - (say, cornbread)

ground grain sorghum, ground wheat (say, pasta and wonderbread)

chicken by-product meal (lunchmeat, bologna)

brewers rice (Instant rice, at best)

animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), natural flavor, vegetable oil,


And a bunch of vitamins

Crude Protein (minimum) 21.5 Crude Fat (minimum) 13 Moisture (maximum) 10 Crude Fiber (maximum) 3

So basically, you're feeding the dog a heaping serving of pasta and bread, cornbread, some boil-in-a-bag rice, some bologna on the side, a sprinkling of chicken, a dose of Crisco, and a vitamin pill.

I don't see how this could be a good diet for *any* even remotely carnivorous/ominvorous animal......

 

[sofficat]

pasta and cornbread? yummmmm.....

 

[Red Dobie]

red dobie- do you carry the food you recommend in your clinic? if not, do you recommend to your clients to order them online (since they can be hard to find)? do you work with other vets in your clinic? so the chicken meal as the first ingredient isn't great, but it is ok if there is no filler ingredients? i'm so glad you jumped on this board. all of the vets i have worked with in the past have *always* recommended hills or purina or waltham. when i was 19 i started questioning why "hills is completely superior to all other food" (actual quote from a vet!). thanks for getting me more involved in nutrition (btw... i am a vegetarian and i don't think i'll ever do raw diets because, honestly, i don't want meat in my kitchen! however, i will educate myself as best i can to give my clients the full perspective and help them choose what they/we think is best)
one more thing... so anything with corn meal, wheat gluten, rice in the ingredients list is bad, right?

Corn meal is always a no-no, wheat is not so bad, but not good and rice is generally going to be okay.

Sorry if my post was confusing, I was posting and going back to the question to try to make sure I got everything. Chicken meal is an excellent ingredient. You ideally want to have chicken or other specific meal, and whole fresh specific meats as your top two ingredients. I employ four other vets, one from UPenn, two from OSU, and one from VA-MD. Two, out of school, discouraged Hill's, Eukanuba, Iams, 'Ol Roy and the like. The other two, after experience, have come to discourage those foods. At one point, we did stock Timberwolf Organics, Innova /Evo, Chicken Soup, and The Honest Kitchen (for those of you who have no budget, The Honest Kitchen is as close to raw as you can get without actually feeding raw). Since, we have stopped stocking it because we have found our clients can actually get the food cheaper directly from the manufacturer via mail-order than through us.

Since those vets sell the Hills, etc they generally have to promote it. You won't walk onto a Toyota dealership lot and ever hear a salesman tell you anything negative about their vehicles, they will tell you why their product is superior in hopes you will make a purchase.

 

[sofficat]

ok, one more question (yeah right). we touched on this before with raw diets, but for those who are on premium foods and have problems (like kidney issues) do you switch the food to something with lower protein, different ph etc? what about skin problems (#1 issue where i am from). start bland (what would that be in term of premium kibble? veggie?) then add certain meats to see what effects the dog? (you mentioned this before, but i think you were talking about barf)
thank you thank you thank you! just think, all of this is helping me become a better vet!

 

[Red Dobie]

ok, one more question (yeah right). we touched on this before with raw diets, but for those who are on premium foods and have problems (like kidney issues) do you switch the food to something with lower protein, different ph etc? what about skin problems (#1 issue where i am from). start bland (what would that be in term of premium kibble? veggie?) then add certain meats to see what effects the dog? (you mentioned this before, but i think you were talking about barf)
thank you thank you thank you! just think, all of this is helping me become a better vet!

Good questions. Myself, I do not switch a dog to a lower protein food. This link explains precisely why http://www.wysong.net/hpkidney.shtml

I did mean the barf diet when speaking about starting out bland. As far as the type of diet to use to try to pinpoint a certain protein that is causing issues, it depends on the type of diet the dog is on currently. Most skin issues related to nutrition come from either grains or the protein source. Chicken is generally the most accepted protein source in dogs, while beef/red meats are typically more difficult for the dogs digestive system. If feeding BARF/raw I put the dog on a bland diet consisting of boiled chicken and rice. We then begin adding back in ingredients slowly to find where the issue lies. If on kibble, we go off grains first, then to another source of protein. If the dog still has issues, and dairy is high on the ingredient list, we will recommend a food with no dairy or else dairy that is much lower on the list.

If we are taking a dog who has been on bad kibble for awhile, we typically also recommend supplementing a probyotic such as Pro-Zyme or Missing Link. Many of the premium foods already include some probyotics, but I still feel it's necessary to supplement for a dog to get the full nutritional value out of the premium kibble. I like to add in some yogurt (look for yogurt that contains active live cultures) a few times a week to keep the 'good' bacteria plentiful in my pets' guts.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The Wysong link is very informative, and mostly correct except for the phosphorous business....

An added finding in this study was that higher dietary levels of phosphorous did not contribute to kidney disease since the diets used in this study were at 0.9% phosphorous, whereas those commercially available for treatment of renal failure are at 0.3% phosphorous.

I don't know where they found that one (and I'd like to investigate the statistics on it...), but all of the studies I have read DO show a significant link between Phos. and chronic renal dz....They ARE correct, however, in that protein has not been definitively proven to have any effect whatsoever. The whole 'protein causes/exacerbates/induced renal disease' is pure speculation - all theory about protein passage in the kidney and water flow - NOT proven!. Animals in renal failure still need protein - but they need low-ash sources (ie low mineral, low P)