What do you feed your dog or cat?

[Electrophile]

Most of the Solid Gold are either pretty good or excellent (Barking at the Moon is in particular excellent). How much are you feeding your Chis (including just for fun and training treats)? I used to have a medium high energy Aussie mix who was 40 lbs. He ate 2 measured cups of Chicken Soup a day and that was plenty. For Chis, it'd probably be a whole lot less. I wouldn't mess with the obesity diets cause they full of filler. According to the Hill's website, their r/d dry diet is 15% powdered cellulose (i.e.-saw dust!) and 11% peanut shells. Wow. It's 26% junk with no nutritional value whatsoever. Just wow. It's just easier to up the exercise and down the food. Wish I could do that myself!

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[Azawakh]

You guys need to take a nutrition course. I am extremely surprised by some of the comments of the "veterinary students" on this post. The nutrition class that I took my first year taught by a board certified veterinary nutritionist with a PhD in nutrition addressed all of these issues. If you have taken a nutrition course then it's a shame.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

Most of the Solid Gold are either pretty good or excellent (Barking at the Moon is in particular excellent). How much are you feeding your Chis (including just for fun and training treats)? I used to have a medium high energy Aussie mix who was 40 lbs. He ate 2 measured cups of Chicken Soup a day and that was plenty. For Chis, it'd probably be a whole lot less. I wouldn't mess with the obesity diets cause they full of filler. According to the Hill's website, their r/d dry diet is 15% powdered cellulose (i.e.-saw dust!) and 11% peanut shells. Wow. It's 26% junk with no nutritional value whatsoever. Just wow. It's just easier to up the exercise and down the food. Wish I could do that myself!

..

 

[silverelf]

Wow. It's 26% junk with no nutritional value whatsoever. Just wow. It's just easier to up the exercise and down the food. Wish I could do that myself!

It works well for pets because it allows them to eat more food and feel full, yet at the same time, cutting back on calories. It falls under the same principle as feeding carrots as cookies...they have zero nutritional value but fill the pet up. I really wouldn't laugh like that at a diet that has been so wildly successful. i've got a corgi, and i can tell you that when i just "cut her food back and exercise her more" she tears my entire house apart (literally) trying to get into food. she'll even eat birdseed and acorns. But if I keep her on a high fiber diet, she does wonderfully. The same principle applies with people...what do you think Kashi GoLean cereals are stuffed full of? Fiber! Like you said, many people (and their pets!) can't just "eat less". It doesn't work. What DOES work is eating the same amount, but eating differently so you consume less calories overall. I don't appreciate the pretentious tone you're starting to take, especially when you don't understand the science behind it.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[silverelf]

I know you weren't talking to me and I understand you, but it just seems to me that not all dogs are like yours

that is exactly the issue! my dogs are not like your's and your dogs are not like mine! thus, we need to provide options for our clients rather than snub our noses at every food that is not homemade or 50 bucks a bag. R/D is not my favorite (I like the Eukanuba version better), but I agree entirely with the principle of the diet. For many animals (all beagles, bassets, corgis, etc) cutting back food does NOT work and both the pet and owner will be miserable. For many dogs, it does work, and thus you can comfortably cut calories and maintain your dog's quality of life (not to mention your own! and that of your cabinets!). Those dogs don't need a high fiber diet. BUT MANY DOGS DO.

and yes, my dogs eat carrots (they LOVE the crunch), cucumbers, and broccoli. the only food they don't like is blackberries...they're too sour!

 

[nyanko]

Back on topic, my 5 year old Great Pyrenees eats Solid Gold WolfKing which I feel is a good food.

I feed my 17 year old CRF cat Hills k/d canned and Purina NF dry though. I don't love the ingredient lists, but I also don't feel that there has been enough other research done on the newer (particularly Wysong) veterinary diets for me to risk my cat's kidneys on it. The Wysong diet is pretty high in protein and I know that if it is a good protein source it may not matter, but the key word being "may" makes me a little apprehensive. She's been doing well for 3 years on the k/d and NF, though she has lost some muscle tone due to the lowered protein content in these foods. People always compliment her and say that she doesn't look 17 at all, so I'm going to stick with what works until it is more proven otherwise.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

....

 

[Electrophile]

It works well for pets because it allows them to eat more food and feel full, yet at the same time, cutting back on calories. It falls under the same principle as feeding carrots as cookies...they have zero nutritional value but fill the pet up. I really wouldn't laugh like that at a diet that has been so wildly successful. i've got a corgi, and i can tell you that when i just "cut her food back and exercise her more" she tears my entire house apart (literally) trying to get into food. she'll even eat birdseed and acorns. But if I keep her on a high fiber diet, she does wonderfully. The same principle applies with people...what do you think Kashi GoLean cereals are stuffed full of? Fiber! Like you said, many people (and their pets!) can't just "eat less". It doesn't work. What DOES work is eating the same amount, but eating differently so you consume less calories overall. I don't appreciate the pretentious tone you're starting to take, especially when you don't understand the science behind it.

I would suggest that, as a corgi (which were once pretty hard core working dogs!), she probably needs to work harder to get the food she's got. You mentioned beagles, too. A lot of people get them because both corgis and beagles are cute and on the smaller size, but they need tremendous amounts of exercise. Beagles were bred to run like up to 20 miles a day in a hunt and corgis were bred to work cattle. I'd try something like giving them all their food in Kongs or other toys where they have to work to get their food if they are that food crazy in addition to upping their exercise. Giving them junky filler food is like the magic pill that everyone wants. Speaking of high priced food...so just how much are you or the average client paying for a food that is 15% sawdust and 11% peanut shells?

 

[nyanko]

Your post made me remember something.........today, in our animal pathology class, our professor who is a local vet, said that there is some newer research that shows cats should be given wet food only because it helps keep their kidneys and bladders normal (no stones, infections, etc).......with dry food they don't get enough water through the day. He mentioned something about when cats were first domesticated, they ate wet food and the studies have linked an increase in kidney/bladder problems in our time with eating dry food and not enough water consumption. I think/hope I am remembering this all correctly

Anyone else read/heard this?

I've heard similar, that cats, having been desert animals before domestication, obtained most of their daily intake of water from their food (live prey, obviously) and that they would not drink enough water on their own to support a dry diet. My cat gets a diet of 1/2 canned and 1/2 dry with 3 water bowls (one being a large Petmate fountain) placed around the house (not counting the toilet, sink or bathtub, which she also considers to be her personal water bowls ).

 

[JerseyisCutest]

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[JerseyisCutest]

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Electrophile - great to see a raw feeder.

I do rotations of Innova, Natural Balance, Evolve, and homecooked/raw (yes...balanced.... for people worried about of raw is "balanced"...it's really not that hard, just a little macro/micro nutrient spreadsheeting and vet nutritionist consulting. The problem is people who throw themselves into it without doing research).

I will say Hill's veterinary diets have uses. But their usual food is...well...read the label. I can't justify feeding those ingredients to my animals...same thing with Purina, Eukanuba...

why not just decrease their food and increase the exercise? That just seems like common sense to me......

Because Hill's wants your $$

 

[silverelf]

I would suggest that, as a corgi (which were once pretty hard core working dogs!), she probably needs to work harder to get the food she's got. You mentioned beagles, too. A lot of people get them because both corgis and beagles are cute and on the smaller size, but they need tremendous amounts of exercise. Beagles were bred to run like up to 20 miles a day in a hunt and corgis were bred to work cattle. I'd try something like giving them all their food in Kongs or other toys where they have to work to get their food if they are that food crazy in addition to upping their exercise. Giving them junky filler food is like the magic pill that everyone wants. Speaking of high priced food...so just how much are you or the average client paying for a food that is 15% sawdust and 11% peanut shells?

never mind. i'm not going to continue this discussion with you. i'm sick of not being listened to.

 

[ri23]

Silverelf - What do you think about the Eukanuba veterinary diet for weight loss. I know you said that you liked it more than R/D, so I was wondering if you've tried OM. I am currently trying to decide which weight loss diet I want to put my lab on, and I was planning on doing OM as opposed to R/D, just because I've seen more success with it, but I'm not really familiar with the Eukanuba (now Iams I guess being that they're revamping their food) rx diets. So if you have any suggestions I would like to hear them!

And if it makes any difference, I definitely agree with what you say on the food being filling and helping a great deal. I know that my dog certainly wouldn't be happy if I just decreased her food, I would much rather replace it with a low calorie diet.

 

[Electrophile]

never mind. i'm not going to continue this discussion with you. i'm sick of not being listened to.

Erm...okay? Why is it everyone puts their heads in the sand when I make a seemingly sensible suggestion? I'm quite honestly confused. Anywho, we're doing the epigenetics of obesity in vet cell bio class right now and man is that cool! Well, actually it's not cool cause it's so much harder to lose weight once the body decides to stay at the overweight/obese weight rather than lose it and "starve." Bummer...so prevention, prevention, prevention! That way, they shouldn't have to eat sawdust and peanut shells.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There are also a TON of lower-calorie foods that are higher quality than SD, Euk, etc...Canidae Platinum, Natural Balance reduced calorie, Solid Gold "Holistique Blendz", Innova Reduced Fat, etc....they may be a bit harder to get but are worth it. It's a shame we aren't really exposed to such brands in school....all the bigger companies just have more advertising power

 

[silverelf]

Silverelf - What do you think about the Eukanuba veterinary diet for weight loss. I know you said that you liked it more than R/D, so I was wondering if you've tried OM. I am currently trying to decide which weight loss diet I want to put my lab on, and I was planning on doing OM as opposed to R/D, just because I've seen more success with it, but I'm not really familiar with the Eukanuba (now Iams I guess being that they're revamping their food) rx diets. So if you have any suggestions I would like to hear them!

And if it makes any difference, I definitely agree with what you say on the food being filling and helping a great deal. I know that my dog certainly wouldn't be happy if I just decreased her food, I would much rather replace it with a low calorie diet.

i met with a nutritionist about prescription diets for dogs and OM is actually not a great "diet" diet...it has TONS of calories - almost as much as many "lite" foods! i was actually really surprised by this when I spoke with the nutritionist. she said that it provides great nutrition for your pet, but you'd have to cut back a lot to get effective weight loss. With eukanuba and r/d, you can feed more food and still have less overall calories. I know eukanuba and r/d are comparable as far as calories go. i use eukanuba because my dog seems to like it more, and i've just seen better success with it overall. she has a great coat and i'm really happy with it. however, i've met plenty of dogs that have lost weight on r/d.

the other big tip the nutritionist gave me is no more cookies. no milk bones or rawhide - the calories in them really add up! i give my dogs fruits and veggies now when i want to reward them for something. however, this isn't something that will work for all pets, because not everyone will eat carrots, but if your dog will, its something to think about.

 

[ri23]

Erm...okay? Why is it everyone puts their heads in the sand when I make a seemingly sensible suggestion? I'm quite honestly confused. Anywho, we're doing the epigenetics of obesity in vet cell bio class right now and man is that cool! Well, actually it's not cool cause it's so much harder to lose weight once the body decides to stay at the overweight/obese weight rather than lose it and "starve." Bummer...so prevention, prevention, prevention! That way, they shouldn't have to eat sawdust and peanut shells.

Maybe it's the way you phrase things and are seemingly judgemental of those that don't share your same viewpoints.

Thanks for the info silverelf.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

There are also a TON of lower-calorie foods that are higher quality than SD, Euk, etc...Canidae Platinum, Natural Balance reduced calorie, Solid Gold "Holistique Blendz", Innova Reduced Fat, etc....they may be a bit harder to get but are worth it. It's a shame we aren't really exposed to such brands in school....all the bigger companies just have more advertising power

I have emailed back and forth with Timberwolf organics re: working with vet students/vet schools. They told me that they are actually in plans right now of doing this in the future! But, like you mentioned, are having a hard time because they just aren't that big of a company.....

 

[StealthDog]

Natura sponsors holistic medicine clubs in vet schools and offers a free feeding program like the Hills/Iams/Purina programs.

 

[Electrophile]

Maybe it's the way you phrase things and are seemingly judgemental of those that don't share your same viewpoints.

You mean the way I ask questions that you guys don't ever want to answer?

-Like why grain heavy foods are evolutionarily species appropriate for dogs and cats?
-Like why we should expect clients to pay big bucks for "prescription" diets that are 26% sawdust and peanut shells?
-Like how you all don't like foods like Kibbles n Bits and Ol' Roy (and understandably so), but think the big three's (Purina, Hill's, IAMS) foods are just dandy when they feature actually fairly similar in ingredients?

I just seek to educate folks on how to read a label and to think for themselves. The big three ain't infallible, gang. That's my point. They may have been around awhile, but so have the big three auto makers and they ain't doing so hot, now are they? I do apologize for thinking for myself, not wishing to be bought and sold, and not groveling at the feet of the pet food industry. It's alright, guys. You all *can* think for yourselves, right?

 

[ri23]

Re-read your post, you just completely proved my point. We are entering a profession where collaboration and consultation are very important, and I think it is necessary to be respectful of your colleagues and their opinions, this is not the attitude I have gotten from your posts.

In previous posts I have answered some of those questions and the reason that I have decided to stop discussing this topic is because you have overlooked those answers. I am all for debating and sharing information, but I don't feel that your posts are very respectful. I don't think I'm the only one with that opinion. I think it's great that you are passionate about this topic, but you are certainly not going to make a positive impression by insulting people on this board.

You mean the way I ask questions that you guys don't ever want to answer?

-Like why grain heavy foods are evolutionarily species appropriate for dogs and cats?
-Like why we should expect clients to pay big bucks for "prescription" diets that are 26% sawdust and peanut shells?
-Like how you all don't like foods like Kibbles n Bits and Ol' Roy (and understandably so), but think the big three's (Purina, Hill's, IAMS) foods are just dandy when they feature actually fairly similar in ingredients?

I just seek to educate folks on how to read a label and to think for themselves. The big three ain't infallible, gang. That's my point. They may have been around awhile, but so have the big three auto makers and they ain't doing so hot, now are they? I do apologize for thinking for myself, not wishing to be bought and sold, and not groveling at the feet of the pet food industry. It's alright, guys. You all *can* think for yourselves, right?

 

[VAgirl]

When we got the JRT, he was about 3-4 lbs overweight (a lot when you weigh 15 lbs normally) and all we did was decrease his food and increased his exercise slightly. He dropped the weight in a little over a month, so obviously it works, right?

I had heard (for cats) that you have to be very careful about how quickly they lose weight. I can't recall if I was told this is because every pound they shed is such a large percentage of their body weight, or if it's because cats are particularly susceptible to organ damage (kidney, liver?) with rapid weight loss. Does anyone know the answer to this?

I thought of it because of what Jersey posted. I'm also curious because I just adopted a chubby cat, and I want to be sure I'm being careful with him. Granted, right now I'm not limiting his access to food (since he really just nibbles a little here and there all day long), but rather just keeping an eye on how much he eats. I'm new to the idea of regulating food volume since my other cat maintains a perfect weight for her frame (9lbs) without any monitoring from me.

 

[Electrophile]

We've also entered a profession where we are supposed to first and foremost do no harm. Convenience medicine is doing no one any favors in the long run. And by virtue of being future vets, are we also required to check our brains and common sense at the door as well? How many of us are or were biology majors and don't think like biologists? And, if you would please humor me, can you answer (or re-answer, if you will) my questions directly?

I'm a pretty blunt person...as if you couldn't tell. Tact and being nice just for the sake of being nice isn't always in my vocabulary, especially when there is so much overt brain washing going on. Of course, I was pre-law for about 4 years, so that also probably has something to do with my argumentative writing style.

Just some thoughts, but it seems odd to me that we feel the need to defend huge companies that make millions or billions of dollars, despite the fact they use junky ingredients and have caused the deaths of untold numbers of pets. I don't have a problem with all commercial diets, but just like all big industries, any business or economics textbook will tell you that the big producers will always just go with what makes them the most $$. That's just how they roll with the status quo.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[EDRN]

okay,...question from the peanut gallery here,.....
first off I'm not a vet or a vet student,....
everyone is throwing around their favorite 'brands',...is there not a way for those of us who want the best for our pets to learn what our pets need in their diet everyday,..ie I KNOW how many servings of meat, veggies, fat etc I need in MY diet,.I can easily find out how much vit E,A,B,C etc. I need,....how do I know what my dog needs,..should he eat all meat? (doesn't sound logical to me) hig protein low carb? low protein high veggie? Is duck better than chicken? Lamb better than beef? How much (if any) fish does my dog need?? It seems to me that with that info, finding the correct food (or making it) wouldn't be so difficult. Any thoughts? Or is this way more difficult than it sounds?
Thanks all!!

 

[ShelterGirl]

I had heard (for cats) that you have to be very careful about how quickly they lose weight. I can't recall if I was told this is because every pound they shed is such a large percentage of their body weight, or if it's because cats are particularly susceptible to organ damage (kidney, liver?) with rapid weight loss. Does anyone know the answer to this?

I thought of it because of what Jersey posted. I'm also curious because I just adopted a chubby cat, and I want to be sure I'm being careful with him. Granted, right now I'm not limiting his access to food (since he really just nibbles a little here and there all day long), but rather just keeping an eye on how much he eats. I'm new to the idea of regulating food volume since my other cat maintains a perfect weight for her frame (9lbs) without any monitoring from me.

Cats can get fatty liver disease if they drop weight too quickly. The only times I've seen it have been with obese (17# and up) cats who stopped eating for 2-3 days due to having URI. I don't know how fast is too fast, but it's bad juju if they get it. Best to work with your vet on a weight loss program.

 

[VAgirl]

Cats can get fatty liver disease if they drop weight too quickly. The only times I've seen it have been with obese (17# and up) cats who stopped eating for 2-3 days due to having URI. I don't know how fast is too fast, but it's bad juju if they get it. Best to work with your vet on a weight loss program.

Are dogs not susceptible to fatty liver disease? (Also, I'm planning on seeing how increased exercise w/out limiting food intake works for him, first, since he's not a voracious eater.)

Thanks for the info, sheltergirl

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[Electrophile]

okay,...question from the peanut gallery here,.....
first off I'm not a vet or a vet student,....
everyone is throwing around their favorite 'brands',...is there not a way for those of us who want the best for our pets to learn what our pets need in their diet everyday,..ie I KNOW how many servings of meat, veggies, fat etc I need in MY diet,.I can easily find out how much vit E,A,B,C etc. I need,....how do I know what my dog needs,..should he eat all meat? (doesn't sound logical to me) hig protein low carb? low protein high veggie? Is duck better than chicken? Lamb better than beef? How much (if any) fish does my dog need?? It seems to me that with that info, finding the correct food (or making it) wouldn't be so difficult. Any thoughts? Or is this way more difficult than it sounds?
Thanks all!!

Are you thinking about doing a homecooked diet? They are not easy to do and I don't recommend them lightly. You may want to see www.balanceit.com to get some ideas of recipes and supplements. Raw diets are a bit easier. Basically, there are two schools of thought for raw feeders. Some do it the BARF way with some raw meaty bones and some ground or pulped veggies/fruits. Some (like me) do the whole prey model way where you feed raw meaty bones, organ meat, and give few if any veggies/fruits if you are also giving something to mimic whole prey, like green tripe. My dogs get canned tripe several times a week. They get occasional veggies, like I'll put a sweet potato in the coals for them to slow roast when I grill something, but some veggies give them gas. Carrots and broccoli in particular, whewwww!

Incidentally on the lamb, I was at a nutrition seminar talk yesterday and afterward I was talking with one of the clinical veterinary nutritionist residents yesterday who said that he read a newer study about lamb being one of the least bioavailable protein sources for some reason. This is interesting as like 5-10 years ago, everyone absolutely loved all the lamb and rice diets. The main clinical veterinary nutritionist (the resident's mentor) also mentioned that dogs or cats should probably not be on the same food for its entire life because the AAFCO feeding trials for maintenance are only 6 months, so they don't test long term efficacy of the diets. Therefore, he said that rotating through was probably a good idea.

 

[dyachei]

Incidentally on the lamb, I was at a nutrition seminar talk yesterday and afterward I was talking with one of the clinical veterinary nutritionist residents yesterday who said that he read a newer study about lamb being one of the least bioavailable protein sources for some reason. This is interesting as like 5-10 years ago, everyone absolutely loved all the lamb and rice diets. The main clinical veterinary nutritionist (the resident's mentor) also mentioned that dogs or cats should probably not be on the same food for its entire life because the AAFCO feeding trials for maintenance are only 6 months, so they don't test long term efficacy of the diets. Therefore, he said that rotating through was probably a good idea.

Just went to a nutrition talk given by Purina (I know, one of the bad ones in your opinion). They gave dogs a diet of one of their maintenance foods and conducted the study over the life of the dogs. It was pretty interesting and about how portion control from the start of life can be positive. My point is just that just because it's only 6 months for AAFCO doesn't mean they haven't tested for longer.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

is there not a way for those of us who want the best for our pets to learn what our pets need in their diet everyday,..ie I KNOW how many servings of meat, veggies, fat etc I need in MY diet,.I can easily find out how much vit E,A,B,C etc. I need,....how do I know what my dog needs,..

AAFCO websites and the like should give you the minimum requirements (ie, a dog only needs this much to stay alive - they don't say anything about thriving)....but I would look at other sources for input as well.

should he eat all meat? (doesn't sound logical to me) hig protein low carb?

Wild canids (ie coyotes, jackals, wolves) would heartily disagree about an all-meat or high prot/low carb diet being illogical And dogs aren't very far removed from them at all. The digestive tract and nutrient requirements are essentially identical. They are so closely related that they can naturally interbreed and produce fertile offpsring (think dog-wolf hybrids) and the genetic code is practically a mirror.

The dog's digestive tract is 1/3 to 1/2 the length of the average omnivore, indicating carnivorous adaptation, so I don't know why we are feeding them foods with only 20-30% protein! Grains and vegetables and the like need a longer time in the tract...that's why dogs on high-grain food tend to have larger, softer stools- the grain just goes right through and isn't completely digested. Dogs on high protein diets tend to have small, dark stools, indicating good absorption [as long as the fat content is not too high - then we all know what happens ]


low protein high veggie? Is duck better than chicken? Lamb better than beef? How much (if any) fish does my dog need??

As long as it is a meat protein, is has a complete amino acid profile. The only difference is if your dog has allergies or a preference. No protein *source is really better, it is more the individual digestability of the formulation. It is probably a good idea to rotate sources - I believe no food is completely balanced (as was mentioned before, AAFCO trials do not last very long...6 months is not 12-15 years)....so I rotate monthly between foods to get a well-rounded nutrient and digestability profile.

It seems to me that with that info, finding the correct food (or making it) wouldn't be so difficult. Any thoughts? Or is this way more difficult than it sounds?

www.dogfoodproject.com

BEST informative website ever.....tons of stuff....

 

[StealthDog]

and have caused the deaths of untold numbers of pets.

I will say that I agree with you about much of what you write, but this is where I think you cross the line. Just like the pet forum fanatics that call them "Pukeanuba" and "Science Death", I just don't see how you can support this position. Give me some data here, or at least some idea into the pathology of how food by "the big three" kills pets.

There is a strange myth out there that animals are living shorter lives now than they used to, but I (and all my pets' vets, and my professors) are seeing just the opposite. Where it used to be rare to see the 20 year old cat, it's now pretty common. Anyway, a lot of people say that pets are living shorter due to these terrible diets, but I'm just not seeing that anecdotally or in the literature. I think a lot of the longer life span can be attributed to better, more balanced nutrition, which more pets are getting now due to the convenience of kibble diets. I'll take a crummy (but balanced) diet over a fresh (but unbalanced) homemade diet any day.

I dunno. I guess my view is, the "big three" aren't the only companies in this for the money... ALL companies are, even the ones with the pretty bags and fancy ingredients. What should you look for in a pet food? How it works for your pet.

I've posted this before, but Dolittler has a great read about her perspective of the pet food industry...

Part 1

Part 2
Part 3

 

[sofficat]

You guys need to take a nutrition course. I am extremely surprised by some of the comments of the "veterinary students" on this post. The nutrition class that I took my first year taught by a board certified veterinary nutritionist with a PhD in nutrition addressed all of these issues. If you have taken a nutrition course then it's a shame.

can you please elaborate??

 

[JerseyisCutest]

..

 

[StealthDog]

And dogs aren't very far removed from them at all. The digestive tract and nutrient requirements are essentially identical.

That's just not true. I don't see how you could look at a pug, a husky, and a great dane and think that we changed their external appearance that much while leaving their internal structure completely untouched. One simple example is research conducted by Royal Canin- they found that small breed dogs have a lower GI tract length:body size ratio than larger breed dogs. They have disproportionately shorter GI tracts. Is this something we intended to select for during breeding? No. Is it something that could affect how small-breed dogs utilize nutrients? Yes.

I went to a fabulous talk at the last AHVMA conference by Dr. Nancy Scanlan, where she spent about half the talk discussing the domestication of the dog. We put such a high selective pressure on dogs to become whatever is convenient for humans, and it would make sense that as our diet became more dependent on carbs, so would the canine diet. Most dogs lost the ability to hunt for themselves fairly early on (this is why we see a lot of feral cat colonies, but not many feral dog packs)... Dogs with the greatest reproductive fitness are those that can utilize whatever nutrients we give them. I have no doubt that even though kibble has only been around for 50 years, by virtue of dog breeders feeding kibble and breeding those dogs that do best on it, we've already selected for "kibble tolerance" over many many canine generations.

I'm not trying to defend feeding dogs corn-based diets or anything. Just trying to keep people from arguing points that just don't hold water. There are so many great reasons to feed homecooked or raw over kibble that *do* make sense, like the fact that the extrusion process results in less digestible protein, or the fact that whole foods have macro- and micronutrients that don't survive processing well.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[ri23]

okay,...question from the peanut gallery here,.....
first off I'm not a vet or a vet student,....
everyone is throwing around their favorite 'brands',...is there not a way for those of us who want the best for our pets to learn what our pets need in their diet everyday,..ie I KNOW how many servings of meat, veggies, fat etc I need in MY diet,.I can easily find out how much vit E,A,B,C etc. I need,....how do I know what my dog needs,..should he eat all meat? (doesn't sound logical to me) hig protein low carb? low protein high veggie? Is duck better than chicken? Lamb better than beef? How much (if any) fish does my dog need?? It seems to me that with that info, finding the correct food (or making it) wouldn't be so difficult. Any thoughts? Or is this way more difficult than it sounds?
Thanks all!!

As for the all meat thing - though I'm not sure specifically for dogs - but most people are under the false impression that carnivores should only be fed meat. The bulk of my experience is with exotics (I worked at a zoo for 6 years), and I know for large carnivores that are owned by the general population and are fed just meat develop a host of problems. People don't seem to consider the fact that in the wild these animals at the whole carcass, and that by just feeding meat you are depriving them of essential nutrients. I assume this would also extend to dogs. I would not recommend doing a raw diet without the assistance of a veterinary nutritionist.

 

[ri23]

Just went to a nutrition talk given by Purina (I know, one of the bad ones in your opinion). They gave dogs a diet of one of their maintenance foods and conducted the study over the life of the dogs. It was pretty interesting and about how portion control from the start of life can be positive. My point is just that just because it's only 6 months for AAFCO doesn't mean they haven't tested for longer.

Yes, I've also looked into this study. They used around 30 yellow labs (though I'm no longer positive of the number) and free fed some and did a portion control of the other. It showed that diseases typically started out later and the dogs lived longer. Obviously those results are what most people would postulate but an interesting study nonetheless.

 

[silverelf]

dogs are omnivores. please don't feed them all meat.

 

[ri23]

We've also entered a profession where we are supposed to first and foremost do no harm. Convenience medicine is doing no one any favors in the long run. And by virtue of being future vets, are we also required to check our brains and common sense at the door as well? How many of us are or were biology majors and don't think like biologists? And, if you would please humor me, can you answer (or re-answer, if you will) my questions directly?

I'm a pretty blunt person...as if you couldn't tell. Tact and being nice just for the sake of being nice isn't always in my vocabulary, especially when there is so much overt brain washing going on. Of course, I was pre-law for about 4 years, so that also probably has something to do with my argumentative writing style.

Just some thoughts, but it seems odd to me that we feel the need to defend huge companies that make millions or billions of dollars, despite the fact they use junky ingredients and have caused the deaths of untold numbers of pets. I don't have a problem with all commercial diets, but just like all big industries, any business or economics textbook will tell you that the big producers will always just go with what makes them the most $$. That's just how they roll with the status quo.

No offense, but I really don't want to discuss this topic on this board anymore as I feel I would have a hard time following the SDN rules . I understand having an argumentive personality (law was also my second choice) I was just saying that the tone of your posts was somewhat accusatory and offering an explanation to why you are getting some of the responses you are. Maybe if you tried being rephrasing some of your posts you may get a better reception (though I'm sure many people think that sometimes I should follow my own advice). Again - I'm not trying to be offensive - I'm just saying that you don't have to be nice for the sake of being nice but I think it would help in continuing friendly debates if you would be a little more respectful of other posters.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

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[JerseyisCutest]

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[WhtsThFrequency]

silverelf - I really don't know why people keep saying dogs are omnivores. I have seen no scientific data to support it. If someone can show me articles in peer-reviewed journals that prove dogs to be ominvores, then I will retract my statement. They can survive on grain-based feed, yes. But does that make them omnivores? No.

Very good comment about the appearance differences and selecting for "kibble" based dogs! Interesting. However, I still think that overall you can't change all the canid evolution by a couple thousand years of domestication and even less time spent on a kibble diet. However, you do have valid points, so I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree - opinionsd are what makes the world go round.


As for the all meat thing - though I'm not sure specifically for dogs - but most people are under the false impression that carnivores should only be fed meat. The bulk of my experience is with exotics (I worked at a zoo for 6 years), and I know for large carnivores that are owned by the general population and are fed just meat develop a host of problems.

Wow, 6 years, I bet that was fun...I have some zoo experience, mostly small exotics and reptiles, but I was under the impression that the nutritional problems of larger, especially carnivorous zoo animal was more complex than that...we have SO MANY species and no idea what is the "correct" diet for them. I mean, what does a tiger eat in the wild? A variety of animals, perhaps a tiny but of herbivore stomach matter. We cannot reproduce a wild tiger diet by feeding them beef/goat carcasses (not saying that is what all zoos do, but some do)
Plus, there isn't a whole lot of solid evidence that the metabolic disorders in zoo animals are soley related to diet.


People don't seem to consider the fact that in the wild these animals at the whole carcass, and that by just feeding meat you are depriving them of essential nutrients. I assume this would also extend to dogs. I would not recommend doing a raw diet without the assistance of a veterinary nutritionist.

I agree! That is why any raw diet should indeed by managed by someone who knows what they are doing - ie a nutritionist, holistic or otherwise. The whole prey model is an excellent example...the way a correct raw diet should be fed.

That is unfortunately what most people think a raw diet is - just give em meat and nothing else. Nope, nope. Simply throwing raw hambuger in a bowl is the worst thing you can do for your dog!!! - you need to research, research, research. Get the Ca/P ratio correct, add bone meal, some fiber addition is good to (even carnivores will eat the stomach matter of their prey sometimes) get the diet evaluated....

 

[ri23]

silverelf - I really don't know why people keep saying dogs are omnivores. I have seen no scientific data to support it. If someone can show me articles in peer-reviewed journals that prove dogs to be ominvores, then I will retract my statement. They can survive on grain-based feed, yes. But does that make them omnivores? No.

Very good comment about the appearance differences and selecting for "kibble" based dogs! Interesting. However, I still think that overall you can't change all the canid evolution by a couple thousand years of domestication and even less time spent on a kibble diet. However, you do have valid points, so I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree - opinionsd are what makes the world go round.


As for the all meat thing - though I'm not sure specifically for dogs - but most people are under the false impression that carnivores should only be fed meat. The bulk of my experience is with exotics (I worked at a zoo for 6 years), and I know for large carnivores that are owned by the general population and are fed just meat develop a host of problems.

I have some zoo experience, but I was under the impression that the nutritional problems of zoo animal was more complex than that...we have SO MANY species and no idea what is the "correct" diet for them. I mean, what does a tiger eat in the wild? A variety of animals, perhaps a tiny but of herbivore stomach matter. We cannot reproduce a wild tiger diet by feeding them beef/goat carcasses (not saying that is what all zoos do, but some do)
Plus, there isn't a whole lot of solid evidence that the metabolic disorders in zoo animals are soley related to diet.


People don't seem to consider the fact that in the wild these animals at the whole carcass, and that by just feeding meat you are depriving them of essential nutrients. I assume this would also extend to dogs. I would not recommend doing a raw diet without the assistance of a veterinary nutritionist.

I agree! That is why any raw diet should indeed by managed by someone who knows what they are doing - ie a nutritionist, holistic or otherwise. The whole prey model is an excellent example...the way a correct raw diet should be fed.

That is unfortunately what most people think a raw diet is - just give em meat and nothing else. Nope, nope. Simply throwing raw hambuger in a bowl is the worst thing you can do for your dog!!! - you need to research, research, research. Get the Ca/P ratio correct, add bone meal, some fiber addition is good to (even carnivores will eat the stomach matter of their prey sometimes) get the diet evaluated....

I agree with your post. I think a raw diet is fine for people that are willing to put the time and research into it, but that is usually not the typical person.

As for the zoo animals, I was actually referring to those people that keep lions and tigers as pets - not the zoos. Most reputable zoos provide a pretty good diet for the animals in their care and they do extensive work to ensure that (though obviously there is always . But large carnivore animals typically figure if they give their "domesticated" lion raw beef they should be good. Then again, these are also the people that decided it would be a good idea to own a lion.

 

[StealthDog]

I don't really think that's the sort of testing she's referring to when talking about they only tested for 6 months and not the whole lifetime, I'm pretty sure in one of her earlier posts she already talked about that exact study.

She was referring to the testing requirements for a food to pass an AAFCO feeding trial. A feeding trial consists of feeding 8 dogs the diet for six months. Of those eight, only six need to complete the feeding trial. The dogs who complete the trial can't have lost more than 15% of their body weight, and can't have any clinical or pathological signs of a nutrient deficiency. They also check hemoglobin, PCV, serum albumin, and serum alkaline phosphatase, and those values have to stay within normal ranges. They are rather loose requirements, but right now they are considered the "gold standard" for assessing pet food.

I doubt many breeders base their decisions on what dogs to breed based on how well they do on kibble.

My point was not that breeders are choosing specifically for dogs that do well on kibble, but it probably is an unintentional side-effect of breeding. Obviously they are choosing dogs that fit the breed standard well. But, they are choosing dogs in best condition, with shiny coats and good muscle tone and all that. If all dogs in the kennel are getting kibble, but one dog maintains better coat and muscle, etc on kibble than another, than one of the unintentional qualities you're selecting for is being able to utilize nutrients in kibble well. *shrug* There are so many factors going in to breeding, so I'm not trying to argue that kibble makes or breaks a show dog- but I do believe that a lot of dogs today do better on kibble than dogs did when it first came out.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

If all dogs in the kennel are getting kibble, but one dog maintains better coat and muscle, etc on kibble than another, than one of the unintentional qualities you're selecting for is being able to utilize nutrients in kibble well. *shrug* There are so many factors going in to breeding, so I'm not trying to argue that kibble makes or breaks a show dog- but I do believe that a lot of dogs today do better on kibble than dogs did when it first came out.

Yeah, its kind of a "macroevolution vs microevolution and which takes precedence" arguement. Jury's still out, for the most part.

Lions as pets?? Oh man...don't get me started There are some crazy people out there.

 

[StealthDog]

I really don't know why people keep saying dogs are omnivores. I have seen no scientific data to support it.

Here's what's in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Ed., pg. 218, regarding the omnivorous qualities of dogs:

• small intestine composes 23% of total GI volume of dogs vs. 15% for cats
• ratio of GI tract length to total body length is 6:1 for dogs, 4:1 for cats, 10:1 for rabbits, and 20:1 for some herbivores
• "True carnivores are limited to what is available from prey tissues such as skeletal muscle and liver to provide energy and nutrients, including protein, taurine, arginine, arachidonic acid, and niacin. Consequently, carnivorous animals developed more efficient pathways to use these nutrients, and have lost the ability to synthesize them from precursors. Being omnivorous and receiving a varied diet of plant and animal tissue, dogs maintained or improved the ability to synthesize nutrients from precursors."
• dogs digest starch efficiently via pancreatic enzymes and salivary enzymes (amylase)

 

[Red Dobie]

i've had much MUCH better results with the eukanuba veterinary diet restricted calorie with both dogs and cats...r/d does work for some animals (obviously, otherwise no sales would be made!) but i think there are other diets that do it better.

Good grief. I suggest you learn what the ingredients are that are in Eukanuba before you prance around here carrying that banter. I'd be very surprised to see you pop back in this thread after knowing exactly what some of the ingredients listed actually are. It's almost comical, if it were not for the poor dog who has to eat the garbage, to read some of this junk. There is obviously an underlying issue if your dog or cat is overweight, deal with the issue. Don't try to feed the dog fillers that contain no nutritional value to 'trick' his system into thinking it is full. I wish there were a 'rolls eyes' smiley as it would be extremely appropriate in this thread.