MD & DO What are your thoughts about Social justice in the curriculum?

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genessis42

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Do you think the “Woke” ideology belongs in the medical curriculum?

I understand there are common issues people on all sides of the spectrum should work on, such as internal bias and that people are more than just a disease.
But my main concern are collectivist ideas creeping in. It reminds me of college, where we had diversity in race, SES, gender, etc., but not enough Political diversity of different viewpoints.

Where do you think a line should be drawn?

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While important, discussion on these topics never end well on SDN.
 
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While important, discussion on these topics never end well on SDN.
This... we've had several recent threads on this exact topic that have gone off the rails and been closed.

We'll allow it for now on the off chance that there is something worth discussing that we haven't already, but please keep in mind there's a very fine line between talking about the importance of having a diverse set of viewpoints represented and getting into a political firestorm. Inevitably someone comes along and says "Well that viewpoint is based on lies, so of course we shouldn't give that viewpoint a platform," and things tend to devolve from there. So fair warning that if we go down that path this thread isn't going to last long.

Talking about viewpoints as being "woke ideology" generally doesn't help, btw.
 
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The topics you are referring to are certainly worthy of discussion in public health education, in fact was a huge deal in my MPH classes. I see myself as a conservative, but I think it is important for more docs to be aware of these public health issues, which might help us find realistic solutions. As far as where the line should be drawn by using statistics and trend differences in different populations to educate and not anecdotal data to manipulate emotions. I hope we can just learn medicine and problems that go with healthcare
 
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I still think there can be common ground between conservatives and liberal-leaning folks in healthcare when it comes to relevant issues.

It does become a political firestorm when things are framed as “all or nothing”.
 
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Social determinants of health are pretty well established. I don't think this is some controversial "woke ideology" and they have been incorporated into medical school coursework when relevant. It would be foolish to ignore it, and even moreso to frame it as liberal vs. conservative and further politicize it.
 
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My main issue with the way social issues are presented in the curriculum is that, at least at my school, we are presented with a ton of material demonstrating that social issues matter to patient health, but very little information is given on how I, as a future physician, can help to fix these issues. Unfortunately it seems like a lot of this has to be fixed on a systemic level which is not where I see my career going. As a result, any time spent on social issues feels like a waste of time to me when I want to focus on learning medicine, which is why I went to medical school.
 
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My main issue with the way social issues are presented in the curriculum is that, at least at my school, we are presented with a ton of material demonstrating that social issues matter to patient health, but very little information is given on how I, as a future physician, can help to fix these issues. Unfortunately it seems like a lot of this has to be fixed on a systemic level which is not where I see my career going. As a result, any time spent on social issues feels like a waste of time to me when I want to focus on learning medicine, which is why I went to medical school.
Well, I agree and disagree with what you said. While it is true that institutions don't give much info on how to solve issues, being aware of potential biases in medicine hardly seems like a waste of time. I'm sure you care about the issues in medicine, so widespread awareness to future docs couldn't hurt.
 
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Well, I agree and disagree with what you said. While it is true that institutions don't give much info on how to solve issues, being aware of potential biases in medicine hardly seems like a waste of time. I'm sure you care about the issues in medicine, so widespread awareness to future docs couldn't hurt.
in hindsight, calling it a waste of time is a bit harsh. I still think that the curriculum could be a lot more streamlined though. Maybe I'm a cynic, but awareness only does so much. Gotta give some concrete actions I can take.
 
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My main issue with the way social issues are presented in the curriculum is that, at least at my school, we are presented with a ton of material demonstrating that social issues matter to patient health, but very little information is given on how I, as a future physician, can help to fix these issues. Unfortunately it seems like a lot of this has to be fixed on a systemic level which is not where I see my career going. As a result, any time spent on social issues feels like a waste of time to me when I want to focus on learning medicine, which is why I went to medical school.
I agree with the poster above, the point isn't always to be able to "fix" the issue, it's to be aware that there is an issue in the first place. For example, if a patient has a stroke you can't necessarily "fix" it, but you need to be able to be aware of how that will affect them going forward and give appropriate counseling; in a similar manner, social factors will impact your patients' medical status, and you should also be aware of those and be able to give appropriate counseling to address them. These are all parts that are important in improving the health of your patients.
 
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I take issue with some of the social justice ideologies promoted (intersectionality, Kendis “antiracist” approach, etc), but those are mainly propagated by clubs and not the school directly.
 
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Do you think the “Woke” ideology belongs in the medical curriculum?

I understand there are common issues people on all sides of the spectrum should work on, such as internal bias and that people are more than just a disease.
But my main concern are collectivist ideas creeping in. It reminds me of college, where we had diversity in race, SES, gender, etc., but not enough Political diversity of different viewpoints.

Where do you think a line should be drawn?

That's not woke. Understanding health equity and social factors is important
 
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I take issue with some of the social justice ideologies promoted (intersectionality, Kendis “antiracist” approach, etc), but those are mainly propagated by clubs and not the school directly.
I wish that all the ideologies taught were directly related to medicine and verifiable with data, for example, women of color in pregnancy-related deaths, an important social issue that is directly tied to medicine and the physician's role in care. I think that kind of stuff is worth knowing about before entering the field.
 
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I wish that all the ideologies taught were directly related to medicine and verifiable with data, for example, women of color in pregnancy-related deaths, an important social issue that is directly tied to medicine and the physician's role in care. I think that kind of stuff is worth knowing about before entering the field.
I agree. Like I said, my school doesn’t teach the ideologies for the most part, but they strongly support guest speakers who speak on intersectionality, privilege, etc.
 
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I agree with the poster above, the point isn't always to be able to "fix" the issue, it's to be aware that there is an issue in the first place. For example, if a patient has a stroke you can't necessarily "fix" it, but you need to be able to be aware of how that will affect them going forward and give appropriate counseling; in a similar manner, social factors will impact your patients' medical status, and you should also be aware of those and be able to give appropriate counseling to address them. These are all parts that are important in improving the health of your patients.
Interesting perspective. Thanks.
 
It’s nice to see that this thread has been civil thus far
 
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I’ve noticed it works best in the curriculum in a discussion/small group format where it really is a discussion and not a ‘repeat after me’ exercise. People tend to change their positions more when they don’t feel attacked or forced to believe something. And also echoing the other posts, discussion should focus on social disparities and biases that can affect care. I do think that healthcare reform is an important discussion topic as well, but it should present both sides of the issue.
 
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I take issue with some of the social justice ideologies promoted (intersectionality, Kendis “antiracist” approach, etc), but those are mainly propagated by clubs and not the school directly.
How is intersectionality controversial? It's basically just saying that different aspects of a person's identity/experience interact with each other and can't be silo'ed off in a piecemeal fashion when providing treatment or services.
 
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How is intersectionality controversial? It's basically just saying that different aspects of a person's identity/experience interact with each other and can't be silo'ed off in a piecemeal fashion when providing treatment or services.

Yeah definitely wouldn’t put antiracism and intersectionality in the same boat.
 
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How is intersectionality controversial? It's basically just saying that different aspects of a person's identity/experience interact with each other and can't be silo'ed off in a piecemeal fashion when providing treatment or services.
Intersectionality, as I understand it, is an attempt to create a framework wherein individual aspects of an person (race, gender, sexuality, etc) ,as well as their social standing, relate to their levels of oppression and privilege. This is commonly taken a step further in saying that people who fall within a certain place on the intersectionality hierarchy should be treated a certain way based on their level of “power” and “privilege.”


This is how I have seen it play out at my school. I have many issues with the approach of the ideology itself, one of which is the extreme reliance on the subjective personal experience and the unequal credence given to people’s experience.
 
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Unpopular opinion: The problem with the curriculum is that they then expand into topics that they (lecturers, course directors) know nothing about. Case in point--interdisciplinary classes. We get to hear at my school how NP/PAs are filling gaps in healthcare and how they (NPPs) treat minorities and low-income patients better than physicians (no proof of this). If you speak up you have labeled yourself a trouble maker/"disruptive"/"not a team player". There is just a certain amount of toxicity that comes from those who are ultra passionate about the issue. I think we need to focus on what sets us apart from other professions-our basic science background and our high barriers of entrance to medical school. Anyone can learn about social determinants of health, but I didn't go to medical school and get a 93rd percentile mcat to ponder whether social programs will help those with lower income achieve better outcomes. Of course they will. I went to medical school to learn how a drug affects a patient's MAP and why it affects it in that way based on biochemical and anatomical/physiological principles.
 
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I think anything where people from different backgrounds have honest discussions or even arguments are a good thing. Both sides have developed polarized viewpoints with ugly underbellies on social media. I am for any sort of interaction that breaks down those barriers and leads to further discussion.
 
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I went to medical school to learn how a drug affects a patient's MAP and why it affects it in that way based on biochemical and anatomical/physiological principles.
Ok, but part of being a doctor is helping your patients figure out how to manage their health. If they can't afford the drug you want, but can afford a cheaper drug that isn't as effective, how do you change your overall management to account for that? Not to mention the impact of nutrition in overall health, recommendations to 'exercise more' when people live in neighborhoods where it isn't safe to be outside... if you practice medicine without taking into account the social determinants of health, you're not going to be a very effective doctor, either because your patients will ignore your advice or try to follow it but can't.
 
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Ok, but part of being a doctor is helping your patients figure out how to manage their health. If they can't afford the drug you want, but can afford a cheaper drug that isn't as effective, how do you change your overall management to account for that? Not to mention the impact of nutrition in overall health, recommendations to 'exercise more' when people live in neighborhoods where it isn't safe to be outside... if you practice medicine without taking into account the social determinants of health, you're not going to be a very effective doctor, either because your patients will ignore your advice or try to follow it but can't.
It's fun to say this, but prove it.
 
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I think anything where people from different backgrounds have honest discussions and even arguments are a good thing. Both sides have developed polarized viewpoints with ugly underbellies on the internet/friend circles. I am for any sort of interaction that breaks down those barriers and leads to further discussion.
I agree that this SHOULD be possible, but my experience in medical school is that it isn’t possible. At least not in a group. I’ve had great conversations with individuals of all political positions, but groups are an issue. I’m fairly left leaning on most issues and I’ve gotten shut down aggressively when I have questioned the dogma in a group setting.
 
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Ok, but part of being a doctor is helping your patients figure out how to manage their health. If they can't afford the drug you want, but can afford a cheaper drug that isn't as effective, how do you change your overall management to account for that? Not to mention the impact of nutrition in overall health, recommendations to 'exercise more' when people live in neighborhoods where it isn't safe to be outside... if you practice medicine without taking into account the social determinants of health, you're not going to be a very effective doctor, either because your patients will ignore your advice or try to follow it but can't.
This is kind of an example of what my original comment was about. I totally am on board with the fact that there are barriers to eating healthy and for safe/effective exercise options. At my school this is as far as the conversation goes though. We’ve identified barriers sure, but I don’t think there was ever a question that barriers exist. If schools are gonna incorporate this stuff in the curriculum, we need to go a step further and teach ways for doctors to manage that. IMO awareness that there is a problem isn’t enough.
 
This is kind of an example of what my original comment was about. I totally am on board with the fact that there are barriers to eating healthy and for safe/effective exercise options. At my school this is as far as the conversation goes though. We’ve identified barriers sure, but I don’t think there was ever a question that barriers exist. If schools are gonna incorporate this stuff in the curriculum, we need to go a step further and teach ways for doctors to manage that. IMO awareness that there is a problem isn’t enough.
Name different solutions you see as worthy of a whole classes worth of time. I challenge you to put different solutions or actions into something longer than a paragraph or two. There just are very few actionable things we can do in our role as doctors in a patient-physician relationship.
 
Do you think the “Woke” ideology belongs in the medical curriculum?

I understand there are common issues people on all sides of the spectrum should work on, such as internal bias and that people are more than just a disease.
But my main concern are collectivist ideas creeping in. It reminds me of college, where we had diversity in race, SES, gender, etc., but not enough Political diversity of different viewpoints.

Where do you think a line should be drawn?
My view is that we're training future doctors, not social workers.

On the flip side, if it's important to understand how genetics, smoking, pollution, diet and stress can affect one's health, why not societal issues like implicit bias, trauma, and entrenched racism?
 
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I think that most people agree that socioeconomic determinants matter in terms of health outcomes. There is a wide body of literature on this topic ranging from severity at presentation to outcomes after treatment that vary by SES variables. I will not cite them all here but if you are interested, you have only to use PubMed.

The disconnect, though, is whether cramming down a few extra "mandatory" med school lectures on these topics results in better doctors. You would have to consider how well these extra sessions at teaching students that these disparities exist - to an extent that they do not already know. Then you have to consider how they will use the information you convey to change their practice in the future. I don't think there is any data on that. There may be data looking at compassion and empathy after these sessions are implemented. But I have not seen anything that even moderately resembles longer-term data on whether this actually makes a difference in clinical practice, which is many years down the line for these students.

And to even do such a study, you would have to account for a general increase in social awareness about these factors as time goes on. I would say that the present day medical student is more acutely aware of these issues than medical students have been in the past, even without "social justice" curricula.
 
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What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "individuals who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them except in private conversations, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.
 
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What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "people who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them publicly with others, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I feel people are becoming too much of a ***** nowadays. It’s ridiculous people are getting offended from being called “male” instead of gender neutral fluid cyclo trans xy chromosome when our ancestors had real issue to worry about like hunting wolf and putting food on the table.
 
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I have no problem with discussing social determinants of health and demographic differences as they might relate to patient care.

Where they lose me is when the start presenting data while assuming that it’s obvious that, in a fair society, we should expect equality of outcomes between demographic groups. I’m sorry, but that’s not at all obvious. It’s not clear to me that, in a completely fair society, we would expect the gender makeup of engineers and nurses to exactly reflect broader society. It’s also not clear that they’re respecting cultural diversity by expecting this. If a demographic group tends to gravitate towards certain professions for cultural reasons, is it not “cultural imperialism” or whatever to expect them to find employment in the same places that other groups do?
 
What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "individuals who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them except in private conversations, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.

Honestly, I think at some point it goes too far. We had a minister open congress by saying "amen and awomen" completely unironically. It's getting ridiculous.

That said, I am all for topics that educate on transgendered patients and how to interact with them, why it is appropriate to make sure you ask how someone would like to be addressed, etc. Additionally, I think discussing how race characteristics are used in medicine is important. There is a huge push to make medicine colorblind, which actively harms patients. And on the other side, there are misconceptions about people based on race that lead to inferior care. It's not just flat out overt racism that causes minority patients to receive pain medications less frequently for the same conditions. Talking about biases is important.
 
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What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "individuals who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them except in private conversations, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.

I think this thread of discussion might lead to this thread getting moderated. So I think that people differ in their opinions on this issue and that's okay - last I checked, freedom of expression was still a thing. I think that there are fundamental issues when sex and gender get confused. If we're talking about biological sex, then there are very real differences by biological sex. If we are talking about gender, there are also very important and real differences by gender. As a physician, you will need to understand both because you will care for patients who vary along the whole spectrum of gender. So it's important for instructors to use the correct term - if they mean biology, then they should be using sex. If they mean gender, then they should be using the appropriate terminology.
 
Where they lose me is when the start presenting data while assuming that it’s obvious that, in a fair society, we should expect equality of outcomes between demographic groups. I’m sorry, but that’s not at all obvious. It’s not clear to me that, in a completely fair society, we would expect the gender makeup of engineers and nurses to exactly reflect broader society. It’s also not clear that they’re respecting cultural diversity by expecting this. If a demographic group tends to gravitate towards certain professions for cultural reasons, is it not “cultural imperialism” or whatever to expect them to find employment in the same places that other groups do?
I don't think that equality of outcomes is the emphasis as much as equity (not the same as equality) in the starting point. The idea, in my view, is to elevate people to the same starting point so that they can take advantage of the same opportunities. Outcomes will always be determined by a component of natural talent. I don't think anyone wants to live in a society where outcomes are equal. That is the goal of a socialist society, not ours.
 
What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "individuals who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them except in private conversations, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.
I'm all for distinguishing biological sex from gender. I'm a member of the lgbtq+ community and while I'm not trans, I believe this language is much more inclusive to trans, nonbinary, agender and other gender non-conforming folks. These groups have historically had trouble accessing care and have a notably higher risk for suicide. It's no skin off my back to say "people who menstruate" instead of of "women" but it could make a big difference for a trans person to feel safer and more accepted when seeking care. It takes time to get used to and I have definitely shoved my foot in my mouth a couple times but that's part of the process. Just remember that while cis people might uncomfortable talking about these topics and saying the wrong thing from time to time, it's 10x harder for a trans person to feel comfortable going to the doctor not knowing if they'll be misunderstood, mocked, denied service or outwardly harassed on the basis of their gender identity. The uncomfortable conversations are worth it.

edited for grammar
 
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I don't think that equality of outcomes is the emphasis as much as equity (not the same as equality) in the starting point. The idea, in my view, is to elevate people to the same starting point so that they can take advantage of the same opportunities. Outcomes will always be determined by a component of natural talent. I don't think anyone wants to live in a society where outcomes are equal. That is the goal of a socialist society, not ours.
First of all, I’m not sure that I buy that the idea of equity as used by social justice types is different than equality of outcomes. Second, I disagree that there isn’t emphasis on equality of outcomes. The idea of a gender pay gap, for instance, is one of these. Despite evidence suggesting that the gender pay gap disappears when you control for variables that don’t amount to systemic discrimination, social justice types seem to suggest that society is not fair unless men and women are paid exactly the same. Even if there is a substantial unexplained pay gap (which is definitely not indisputable), how is that necessarily evidence of discrimination? To social justice types, though, it doesn’t matter that men and women actually tend to make different choices in life and have different interests, especially around the extremes of the distributions. To them, the fact that men and women make different amounts of money is just sexism.
 
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What are everyone's thoughts about topics like race-based medicine and usage of gendered language by instructors? Lots of people have mentioned social justice domains which are more disconnected from pure clinical medicine, but at my school, faculty have also adjusted the clinical curriculum in response to student feedback (which appears predominantly driven by a more outspoken group). For example, instructors have received negative feedback following lectures which used "male" and "female" to describe biological XY/XX individuals, lectures in which race is discussed as a variable related to disease risk, or lectures in which sexual/reproductive organs are associated with male / female gender (e.g. the phrase "menstruating women" vs. "individuals who menstruate"). I know many in our class including myself feel conflicted over these issues but don't feel entirely comfortable discussing them except in private conversations, so I am curious to hear people's thoughts in this thread.

This is easy. You only address how the patient wants to be addressed. Everyone else, especially classmates, is irrelevant

Classmates trying to censor and modify lectures based on their beliefs are by far the worst. Always focus on the patient.
 
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This is easy. You only address how the patient wants to be addressed. Everyone else, especially classmates, is irrelevant

Classmates trying to censor and modify lectures based on their beliefs are by far the worst. Always focus on the patient.

Yep. We were taught to ask patients at the beginning of the encounter how they'd prefer we address them. In my experience, the reactions of patients ranges from indifference to being grateful to be asked.
 
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First of all, I’m not sure that I buy that the idea of equity as used by social justice types is different than equality of outcomes. Second, I disagree that there isn’t emphasis on equality of outcomes. The idea of a gender pay gap, for instance, is one of these. Despite evidence suggesting that the gender pay gap disappears when you control for variables that don’t amount to systemic discrimination, social justice types seem to suggest that society is not fair unless men and women are paid exactly the same. Even if there is a substantial unexplained pay gap (which is definitely not indisputable), how is that necessarily evidence of discrimination? To social justice types, though, it doesn’t matter that men and women actually tend to make different choices in life and have different interests, especially around the extremes of the distributions. To them, the fact that men and women make different amounts of money is just sexism.

Let's keep the discussion to medical education. We're talking about social justice in the medical curriculum and I would be concerned about any medical curriculum that spends any substantial amount of time teaching the gender pay gap.

It is also not productive to lump all "social justice types" into one category. Let's be clear about that. There are people who want equality of outcomes. I think most reasonable people don't. What people would like is equity in starting point. The analogy is medical school admissions. Nobody wants everyone to be admitted to Harvard. Not only would that not work logistically, but people generally want hard work to be rewarded. But many people on here also argue that it's not just hard work that gets you into Harvard. It's also where you went for college and the advantages you've accumulated along the way. The idea is to divorce hard work and intellect from the advantages. It's impossible to do this comprehensively. But there are ways to help - such as the fee waiver program which also provides MCAT prep materials.

When you talk about equality of outcomes, let's talk about outcomes that people are trying to achieve with these changes in the curriculum. Is it that health outcomes in two people who are exactly the same with the exception of one variable, which benefits from the intervention, are the same? If so, then you would have to make a pretty good argument why those people shouldn't have the same outcome.
 
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Let's keep the discussion to medical education. We're talking about social justice in the medical curriculum and I would be concerned about any medical curriculum that spends any substantial amount of time teaching the gender pay gap.

It is also not productive to lump all "social justice types" into one category. Let's be clear about that. There are people who want equality of outcomes. I think most reasonable people don't. What people would like is equity in starting point. The analogy is medical school admissions. Nobody wants everyone to be admitted to Harvard. Not only would that not work logistically, but people generally want hard work to be rewarded. But many people on here also argue that it's not just hard work that gets you into Harvard. It's also where you went for college and the advantages you've accumulated along the way. The idea is to divorce hard work and intellect from the advantages. It's impossible to do this comprehensively. But there are ways to help - such as the fee waiver program which also provides MCAT prep materials.

When you talk about equality of outcomes, let's talk about outcomes that people are trying to achieve with these changes in the curriculum. Is it that health outcomes in two people who are exactly the same with the exception of one variable, which benefits from the intervention, are the same? If so, then you would have to make a pretty good argument why those people shouldn't have the same outcome.
My school did have a course that brought up the gender pay gap. The professor in the same course taught the unsubstantiated claim that “rape is not about sex—it is about power.” This idea also made its way into an exam question. Having had the opportunity to examine and treat many people with paraphilias, it’s obvious that this statement is completely false. Rape is usually motivated by a sexual drive and is only sometimes also about arousal by the idea of power. It is exceedingly rare to have a patient where these behaviors are motivated more by power than by sexual drive.

So I am talking about social justice in medical education. Are you denying that these ideas often come up in the context of social justice discussions? How is it not relevant that I’ve had experiences where these issues are taught? Am I not allowed to explain my perspective that, while social determinants of health are important, some social justice claims that make their way into the curriculum are problematic?

Additionally, it’s not about the amount of time that’s spent on these issues. It’s about the fact that I’ve had professors bring up claims in ways that are highly questionable. In the above examples, they’re presented as facts when the evidence for them really isn’t very clear.

Another example that happened just the other week:

My residency had a didactic session on a social justice topic. Demographic data about differences in practice setting and length of practice between physicians of different races was presented. There was no discussion about hypothetical reasons for this. The lecture went on to describe various types of struggles minority physicians might have leading to the implication that the difference must be due to discrimination or implicit bias. I think this is a disingenuous way to present information and my experience has been that this is a common problem surrounding topics of social justice.

With regard to your last point, that is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. Which two people have you ever met that differ on only one variable? Also, in practice, how would you ever measure these types of outcomes to assess how we are performing with respect to this type of equality? In reality, you can’t measure this. What people actually do is measure the comparative outcomes between different groups of people.

The important question is not whether equal outcomes with regard to health would be desirable in an ideal, resource-unlimited world. Of course people would agree with that. The important practical question is at what cost is this ethically defensible?

Suppose hypothetically that we could raise the worst performing demographic in terms of X health measure up to the national average. If this group comprises 20% of the population, but it would require expenditure of 80% of the health care resources on that group to achieve that goal, is it ethical to do so? What if doing so means that, although groups wind up with roughly similar outcomes at the end, some groups experience worsening outcomes due to restrictions on their access to resources? This is far closer to the problems we are actually trying to solve in health policy than the simplistic “wouldn’t it be good if people had equal health outcomes?”
 
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Why can't schools just focus strictly on social determinants of health without adding personal politics to it? I don't care if the lecturer is a Marxist or an ultraconservative. Lay out the facts to me and i'll learn. I don't want to be tested on crappy political beliefs that lecturers and overly political classmates want to force on me.
 
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My school did have a course that brought up the gender pay gap. The professor in the same course taught the unsubstantiated claim that “rape is not about sex—it is about power.” This idea also made its way into an exam question. Having had the opportunity to examine and treat many people with paraphilias, it’s obvious that this statement is completely false. Rape is usually motivated by a sexual drive and is only sometimes also about arousal by the idea of power. It is exceedingly rare to have a patient where these behaviors are motivated more by power than by sexual drive.

So I am talking about social justice in medical education. Are you denying that these ideas often come up in the context of social justice discussions? How is it not relevant that I’ve had experiences where these issues are taught? Am I not allowed to explain my perspective that, while social determinants of health are important, some social justice claims that make their way into the curriculum are problematic?

Additionally, it’s not about the amount of time that’s spent on these issues. It’s about the fact that I’ve had professors bring up claims in ways that are highly questionable. In the above examples, they’re presented as facts when the evidence for them really isn’t very clear.

Another example that happened just the other week:

My residency had a didactic session on a social justice topic. Demographic data about differences in practice setting and length of practice between physicians of different races was presented. There was no discussion about hypothetical reasons for this. The lecture went on to describe various types of struggles minority physicians might have leading to the implication that the difference must be due to discrimination or implicit bias. I think this is a disingenuous way to present information and my experience has been that this is a common problem surrounding topics of social justice.

With regard to your last point, that is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. Which two people have you ever met that differ on only one variable? Also, in practice, how would you ever measure these types of outcomes to assess how we are performing with respect to this type of equality? In reality, you can’t measure this. What people actually do is measure the comparative outcomes between different groups of people.

The important question is not whether equal outcomes with regard to health would be desirable in an ideal, resource-unlimited world. Of course people would agree with that. The important practical question is at what cost is this ethically defensible?

Suppose hypothetically that we could raise the worst performing demographic in terms of X health measure up to the national average. If this group comprises 20% of the population, but it would require expenditure of 80% of the health care resources on that group to achieve that goal, is it ethical to do so? What if doing so means that, although groups wind up with roughly similar outcomes at the end, some groups experience worsening outcomes due to restrictions on their access to resources? This is far closer to the problems we are actually trying to solve in health policy than the simplistic “wouldn’t it be good if people had equal health outcomes?”
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(i dont disagree)
 
My school did have a course that brought up the gender pay gap. The professor in the same course taught the unsubstantiated claim that “rape is not about sex—it is about power.” This idea also made its way into an exam question. Having had the opportunity to examine and treat many people with paraphilias, it’s obvious that this statement is completely false. Rape is usually motivated by a sexual drive and is only sometimes also about arousal by the idea of power. It is exceedingly rare to have a patient where these behaviors are motivated more by power than by sexual drive.

Then I don't see why that should be in the curriculum. Unless the argument was made that the gender pay gap somehow plays into health outcomes. Rape is something different, which you're conflating with the gender pay gap here. You start off with the pay gap then somehow veer off into rape as though that's a coherent argument. If the gender pay gap doesn't play into health outcomes (and I don't see how it does except in a very indirect way), then it has no place in a medical school curriculum. That's not a problem with including social justice in curricula - it's got to do with including completely irrelevant stuff in the curricula that have no connection with health whatsoever except through a very tortuous path.

My residency had a didactic session on a social justice topic. Demographic data about differences in practice setting and length of practice between physicians of different races was presented. There was no discussion about hypothetical reasons for this. The lecture went on to describe various types of struggles minority physicians might have leading to the implication that the difference must be due to discrimination or implicit bias. I think this is a disingenuous way to present information and my experience has been that this is a common problem surrounding topics of social justice.

Do they make the assertion that the differences are due to racism? It sounds from your statement that this is your inference, not what was said. If they present it as a finding and then hypothesize ways in which racial challenges might play into that, then I don't see a problem with that. I think that you're smart enough to know when something is presented as a potential explanation and when something is presented as a link in the causal pathway. All data is biased, some more so than others.

With regard to your last point, that is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. Which two people have you ever met that differ on only one variable? Also, in practice, how would you ever measure these types of outcomes to assess how we are performing with respect to this type of equality? In reality, you can’t measure this. What people actually do is measure the comparative outcomes between different groups of people.

That's the point. That's why, in my opinion, most reasonable people don't go around thinking that equality of outcomes is the goal. The goal is equity in starting point and lifting those who are disadvantaged to a starting point that levels the playing field. What people do is measure comparative outcomes and draw inferences about starting points. I think most reasonable people are okay that people end up in different places as long as they started on a similar footing. So measure things like access and measures that get at access. If you're measuring things like heart failure exacerbations, you can look at that in one of two ways - the simplistic view is that this is an outcome. If that's the case, then you reach the conclusion that people want equality of outcomes which is not really appealing. The other way, which is the way I think most reasonable people think about it, is that this is an indicator of access and thus starting point. It's an indicator that people don't have equal access to care and therefore that results in different outcomes. Then the conclusion is that we need to work on leveling the playing field, provided that access is actually the issue.

The important question is not whether equal outcomes with regard to health would be desirable in an ideal, resource-unlimited world. Of course people would agree with that. The important practical question is at what cost is this ethically defensible?

Suppose hypothetically that we could raise the worst performing demographic in terms of X health measure up to the national average. If this group comprises 20% of the population, but it would require expenditure of 80% of the health care resources on that group to achieve that goal, is it ethical to do so? What if doing so means that, although groups wind up with roughly similar outcomes at the end, some groups experience worsening outcomes due to restrictions on their access to resources? This is far closer to the problems we are actually trying to solve in health policy than the simplistic “wouldn’t it be good if people had equal health outcomes?”

Ah, finally we get to the question about starting points. I agree, these are the difficult questions. Once you have determined the disparities in access exist, then you face this question of how much can you affect that and how much should you affect that. That gets into value judgements and cost-benefit analyses where two completely reasonable people will come to different conclusions. I don't think that this is what is at issue in medical school curricula. Med school curricula present the disparities in outcomes and make the inference that it is due to disparities in access (if you want to dispute this claim, then go out and do research that makes for a better explanation. Most of the evidence I've seen weighs in the other direction). Hint: Don't do this in the abstract. If you think that the observation that racial minorities have worse outcomes is due to something other than access, then evaluate the work that pulls in either direction, much like you've done above for the pay gap.

That's where they pretty much stop because from here, people will vary widely on their values-based judgement on what should be done. I might think it's justifiable to spend more resources on the most disadvantaged whereas someone else might say that's not fair and we should apportion the resources equally. That gets at the equity vs equality debate with respect to starting points.
 
Why can't schools just focus strictly on social determinants of health without adding personal politics to it? I don't care if the lecturer is a Marxist or an ultraconservative. Lay out the facts to me and i'll learn. I don't want to be tested on crappy political beliefs that lecturers and overly political classmates want to force on me.

Generally, this should be the case. Not sure what you're taught but my lecturers outlined the data and made the proposition that these disparities do exist. In terms of how to solve them, that's up to you, not them. But if you refute that these disparities exist, then the onus is on you to do the research that comes up with a better explanation for the observed differentials in outcomes.
 
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