Social Justice in Medicine

[TwoHighways]

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

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[Isomerase]

People are more than their disease state. As a former biochemistry major, it's hard for me to believe that memorizing a couple obscure enzymes will be more relevant for my career as a doctor than getting a basic understanding of sociology and inequality. This is a career where you treat people in need, so regardless of how you feel it's a profession that will attract those interested in "social justicey type stuff".

 

[canquito]

I'm for it. Hearing stories of performative actions/virtue signaling rubs me the wrong way, but I'd rather self-serving people also help others rather than just themselves.

You sound like you have a distaste for "social justicey type stuff" based on the way you describe it as "creeping." Truth is, the student bodies that comprise medical schools are by no means a reflection of society as a whole. Chalk it up to ideas of privilege, nepotism, hard work, meritocracy, etc., but the struggles that encumber medical students, especially traditional ones, are so far detached from those less fortunate in society.

I don't know what your experiences may have been, but I'll share moments I will never forget.

• Interpreting for married couple where the husband explained he skipped meals just so that he could stretch his SS check and afford his wife's meds.
• Completing my job orientation with a veteran nurse who was fired a year before qualifying for his pension due to sexual orientation discrimination at an at-will state.
• Listening to a precocious young boy at the ED for an asthma attack explain to me that he lived near enough a chemical plant to see the smoke-stacks from his backyard.

Pathology is pathology. I won't dispute that but what should separate you from IBM Watson's superior Health algorithms is understanding, or at the very least awareness, of the human dimension of medicine.

You may not want to be a social worker - and not being one is your prerogative - but you will need to collaborate with them, along with countless professionals to address non-medical problems that manifest themselves as illnesses, which themselves are social constructed and understood. Oops, there's that s-word again.

 

[scubascuba]

It definitely matters that this stuff is integrated into medical curriculum. If you don't understand the social determinants of health and how they affect a person, you can't reasonably create a treatment plan.

I've seen ER doctors repeatedly tell a man who lived in his car to simply keep his ulcer elevated, dry, and warm without considering his situation. He got his leg amputated eventually.

You can repeatedly treat asthma in a kid who lives in a moldy house but you need to ask about their home life so that you an advise his parents to try and fix it or move.

Discharging a man to the streets after treating his sepsis could easily just kill him.

People hold unconscious biases against people of color. People of color die because of that. Not being aware makes you complicit.

You're treating the whole person, not just the disease. If you don't care about people, maybe this isn't the career for you.

 

[TwoHighways]

Where is the line crossed between social determinant and lack of individual responsibility/ownership of one’s health? That’s the other side of the coin that is apparently too taboo to discuss. It’s never the patient’s fault.

Like, we have an epidemic of lifestyle disease stemming from the metabolic syndrome, which has horrific downstream effects, and if we want to have an open and honest discussion about what’s driving that (the processed/garbage “food” environment), I’m all for it. If we simply want to blame some social/societal scapegoat (insert your choice of “ism”), I’m out.

 

[IMG69]

Out of curiosity do you learn any sociology, psych, humanities etc in America? It was part of our course for the first two years, we had a separate exam for it weighted just as heavily.

 

[operaman]

It does seem that MedEd is jumping on the SJ pendulum currently swinging into insanity. Hopefully it swings back soon because there’s much to learn from the ideas encapsulated in SJ causes without degenerating into illiberalism as people compete for their gold medal in the Woke Olympics.

There are definitely societal and racial factors that play a big role in health, and physicians in particular have a moral obligation to examine our own biases that may impede our ability to provide optimal care. Unfortunately it seems that woktivism is going well beyond that in some schools to the point it stifles discussion and rational thought. The crusade to create safe spaces free from the “dangers” of unpalatable ideas or - God forbid - “othering” is making it challenging to discuss the reality that different races and genders and nationalities experience disease differently from the societal level down to their very DNA. Somehow we need to find a balance that seeks to serve patients rather than privileged kids and faculty trying to virtue signal one another into oblivion.

 

[scubascuba]

Where is the line crossed between social determinant and lack of individual responsibility/ownership of one’s health? That’s the other side of the coin that is apparently too taboo to discuss. It’s never the patient’s fault.

You use social determinants of health to understand the patient's situation. Then you advise them on how to work within that context to improve their health. Your job is to advise the patient, not judge them. There are tactics to convince patient's to follow your advice like motivational interviewing if there is an issue with adherence.

 

[canquito]

the patient’s fault

To humor your question. Let's also consider who is to blame for (epi)genetic diseases? Let's also consider how in the US healthcare system, preventive care has essentially been relegated as an afterthought. Should we just lazily say 'the US healthcare system is at fault for people's poor health' without considering what we mean (and grossly overlook) if we were to parrot this?

Assigning fault to any one person/institution/thing is not the role of a physician, but if you are concerned with figuring out who is to blame, consider a different profession.

 

[TwoHighways]

To humor your question. Let's also consider who is to blame for (epi)genetic diseases? Let's also consider how in the US healthcare system, preventive care has essentially been relegated as an afterthought. Should we just lazily say 'the US healthcare system is at fault for people's poor health' without considering what we mean (and grossly overlook) if we were to parrot this?

Assigning fault to any one person/institution/thing is not the role of a physician, but if you are concerned with figuring out who is to blame, consider a different profession.

Lulz @ the “who is to blame” comment. Didn’t you know it’s the physician’s unconscious bias? Or the systemic racism? Or fat phobia? Or poverty? Or non-equitable access?

I do agree with you on the prevention front. We practice a lot of sick care, the majority of which could have been prevented, but if we took a full court press on that, we would put a lot of doctors, nurses, hospital admin, and pharmaceutical workers out of a job, hence why the system won’t change.

 

[canquito]

Like, we have an epidemic of lifestyle disease stemming from the metabolic syndrome, which has horrific downstream effects, and if we want to have an open and honest discussion about what’s driving that (the processed/garbage “food” environment), I’m all for it. If we simply want to blame some social/societal scapegoat (insert your choice of “ism”), I’m out.

Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us - Micheal Moss
Pandora's Lunchbox: How Processed Food Took Over the American Meal - Melanie Warner
Deceit and Denial - David Rosner & Gerald Markowitz

It's Harder for Millennials to Stay Thin Than It Was for Boomers

A new study finds that people today who eat and exercise the same amount as people 30 years ago are still fatter.

www.theatlantic.com

Why Calories Count: The Problem With Dietary-Intake Studies

We know from the USDA's Beltsville study that no matter how hard we try, almost all of us are unable to accurately report how much we eat.

www.theatlantic.com

More Than Half of What Americans Eat Is 'Ultra-Processed'

And those foods account for 90 percent of U.S. added sugar intake, new research says.

www.theatlantic.com

TL;DR America's health was sold out to big corporations and we don't yet know the extent of the damage.

 

[TwoHighways]

Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us - Micheal Moss
Pandora's Lunchbox: How Processed Food Took Over the American Meal - Melanie Warner
Deceit and Denial - David Rosner & Gerald Markowitz

It's Harder for Millennials to Stay Thin Than It Was for Boomers

A new study finds that people today who eat and exercise the same amount as people 30 years ago are still fatter.

www.theatlantic.com

Why Calories Count: The Problem With Dietary-Intake Studies

We know from the USDA's Beltsville study that no matter how hard we try, almost all of us are unable to accurately report how much we eat.

www.theatlantic.com

More Than Half of What Americans Eat Is 'Ultra-Processed'

And those foods account for 90 percent of U.S. added sugar intake, new research says.

www.theatlantic.com

TL;DR America's health was sold out to big corporations and we don't yet know the extent of the damage.

My bias is against sugar and refined carbohydrates. Hard to drive fat into a fat cell without an insulin response from an ingested carbohydrate. Don’t even get me started on fructose. It ought to be characterized as toxic to the liver as ethanol.

Honestly, I probably should have just pursued a PhD, but I’ll see this medicine thing through. That being said, it’s criminal how little emphasis nutrition gets, given what collectively ails is the very food we regularly consume.

Oh, and even the STEM fields are increasingly under pressure/being corrupted by irrationalism.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org

 

[Kardio]

Already multiple people insinuating OP should not be part of the profession for their opinion on the sociological parts of MedEd

 

[deleted480308]

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

The problem isn’t teaching you that some people have different social situations (you have to teach patients to navigate their healtj so you need to be aware). The problem is the eventual inclusion in meded that “as a doctor you now are morally obligated to want govt to do x about this”, and that’s inappropriate.

but those who feel that way are vindictive to those who don’t so watch how you admit that in real life

 

[ValeRx]

Already multiple people insinuating OP should not be part of the profession for their opinion on the sociological parts of MedEd

SJWs to the rescue.

 

[DrRedstone]

Lulz @ the “who is to blame” comment. Didn’t you know it’s the physician’s unconscious bias? Or the systemic racism? Or fat phobia? Or poverty? Or non-equitable access?

I do agree with you on the prevention front. We practice a lot of sick care, the majority of which could have been prevented, but if we took a full court press on that, we would put a lot of doctors, nurses, hospital admin, and pharmaceutical workers out of a job, hence why the system won’t change.

There are still plenty of diseases to treat even with excellent preventative care. Just because we do a good job teaching prevention doesn't mean people will listen/can listen.

We must all be aware of our bias in medicine. Even our clinical trials have b I as built in. White males are overrepresented so most medications are dosed according to their needs. We've come to find out that HTN, for example, must be treated differently in the black population. Also, affording medication is a very real issue we must consider. Yes, insulin will save a diabetic long term, but short term not being able to afford rent is more detrimental.

Just knowing and appreciating the differences between you and your patients will do wonders for the patient-doctor relationship and give you the ability to help create real change.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

but those who feel that way are vindictive to those who don’t so watch how you admit that in real life

This is 100% true unfortunately. A friend of mine knows someone who was recently kicked out of medical school because another student didn’t like something he said and went on a Twitter campaign against him, accusing him of being racist, posting his picture everywhere and asking for retweets. It blew up and now he’s a former med student.

 

[TwoHighways]

This is 100% true unfortunately. A friend of mine knows someone who was recently kicked out of medical school because another student didn’t like something he said and went on a Twitter campaign against him, accusing him of being racist, posting his picture everywhere and asking for retweets. It blew up and now he’s a former med student.

What did said student actually do to get kicked out? I can’t imagine the PR fiasco the school would face if the kid lawyered up and went on a media campaign (assuming he/she/zee didn’t do anything egregious to warrant dismissal from school).

 

[Kardio]

This is 100% true unfortunately. A friend of mine knows someone who was recently kicked out of medical school because another student didn’t like something he said and went on a Twitter campaign against him, accusing him of being racist, posting his picture everywhere and asking for retweets. It blew up and now he’s a former med student.

This is exactly why it’s never worth wading into that territory in any shape or form. I avoid political topics completely, without exception.

However nuanced your perspective, however long your caveat, however good your faith - if you’re in that conversation and not singing the exactly correct (#MedTwitter-approved) song - you’re making yourself vulnerable.

 

[blockrudder1]

OP, it looks like you didn't have a firm understanding of what being an individual's or community's physician entails. It's like you applied for a carpentry job because you like to hammer nails, but feel it shouldn't be required to learn to sand the edges. Fortunately you'll still be a carpenter, but unfortunately for those receiving your services, the result is halfa**ed.

 

[TwoHighways]

There are still plenty of diseases to treat even with excellent preventative care. Just because we do a good job teaching prevention doesn't mean people will listen/can listen.

We must all be aware of our bias in medicine. Even our clinical trials have b I as built in. White males are overrepresented so most medications are dosed according to their needs. We've come to find out that HTN, for example, must be treated differently in the black population. Also, affording medication is a very real issue we must consider. Yes, insulin will save a diabetic long term, but short term not being able to afford rent is more detrimental.

Just knowing and appreciating the differences between you and your patients will do wonders for the patient-doctor relationship and give you the ability to help create real change.

I don’t deny that there are differences from person to person and different life experience that change the way we view the world and interact with others. I think the focus on race in particular as of late is an extremely superficial discussion that ignores much deeper, more complex problems that require a nuanced discussion.

What about the unconscious biases of patients? Is that not an equally valid thing to discuss? I really don’t care about a person’s gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religious views, or economic status. I care about truthful speech/honesty/integrity and if a patient is willing to invest in themselves, I’ll go the extra mile to help, but I’m particularly interested in helping someone that won’t lift a finger to help themselves.

 

[DrRedstone]

I don’t deny that there are differences from person to person and different life experience that change the way we view the world and interact with others. I think the focus on race in particular as of late is an extremely superficial discussion that ignores much deeper, more complex problems that require a nuanced discussion.

What about the unconscious biases of patients? Is that not an equally valid thing to discuss? I really don’t care about a person’s gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religious views, or economic status. I care about truthful speech/honesty/integrity and if a patient is willing to invest in themselves, I’ll go the extra mile to help, but I’m not interested in enabling continued poor choices.

Ultimately, physicians are in a position of power and the unconscious bias of the patient has much less effect on us. However, it is still important to understand unconscious bias in general. By understanding our own unconscious bias, we are better able to understand how it can play a role in other's decision making processes as well. I believe the reason we don't discuss other's bias is that we have very little control over it. Medical school is dense enough without adding that into the mix.

I absolutely agree that the issues require more nuanced discussion than we usually give them time for. One of my biggest pet peeves is that people try to boil problems down to simple answers and ignore the fact that every situation is unique and requires nuanced discussion. The problem is, that is hard and time consuming. By equipping medical students with at least a baseline understanding of bias and other factors that can influence decision making, we give future physicians the ability to delve into more of the nuance.

I wasn't extremely interested in social determinants of health when I started studying it in my psych masters program, but as I allowed myself to actually consider what I was learning, I was surprised at how relevant it could be to everyday life. In medical school, it allowed me to engage more thoughtfully in ethical discussions. I assume that, as I join the physician workforce, it will become even more relevant.

Long story short, consider everything you learn as important, even if it doesn't seem so in the beginning. You are likely to find yourself in a situation where it is useful in the future.

Edit: This coming from a white anglo-saxon protestant male. If I can say it, you can say it.

 

[wiseOldPT]

Physician–patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns

A large body of work highlights disparities in survival rates across Black and White newborns during childbirth. We posit that these differences may be ameliorated by racial concordance between the physician and newborn patient. Findings suggest that when Black newborns are cared for by Black...

www.pnas.org

 

[TwoHighways]

Physician–patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns

A large body of work highlights disparities in survival rates across Black and White newborns during childbirth. We posit that these differences may be ameliorated by racial concordance between the physician and newborn patient. Findings suggest that when Black newborns are cared for by Black...

www.pnas.org

Was SES controlled for? Prenatal care? Why where outcomes roughly equal for mothers, but not the infants, if skin color of the newborn and doctor was the factor in reduced infant mortality? Am I a racist for asking questions about the design of this study or the validity of the idea that this outcome is most likely attributed to outgroup bias? Did it ever occur to the authors that physicians (regardless of color) that are more accustomed to difficult births get better at navigating that process, hence are better at safely delivering newborns?

 

[deleted480308]

OP, it looks like you didn't have a firm understanding of what being an individual's or community's physician entails. It's like you applied for a carpentry job because you like to hammer nails, but feel it shouldn't be required to learn to sand the edges. Fortunately you'll still be a carpenter, but unfortunately for those receiving your services, the result is halfa**ed.

It’s more like applying for a job to be a carpenter and being told you are halfa$$ing it by someone who assumes you need to know irrigation techniques for organic timber farming.

that’s not my job, I do my actual job quite well

 

[FalconSlice]

It’s more like applying for a job to be a carpenter and being told you are halfa$$ing it by someone who assumes you need to know irrigation techniques for organic timber farming.

that’s not my job, I do my actual job quite well

Very well said

 

[Dave1980]

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

That's a great question. I don't think that stuff is actually medicine so it shouldn't be an integral part of the curriculum. That type of education seems much more suited to politicians and those in the legal system (cops, lawyers, judges, prison guards, social workers).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What did said student actually do to get kicked out? I can’t imagine the PR fiasco the school would face if the kid lawyered up and went on a media campaign (assuming he/she/zee didn’t do anything egregious to warrant dismissal from school).

I don’t want to out him, but I saw what he posted (it was about a Facebook post), and it was not racist or even unreasonable. It was just an unpopular opinion. A student from a different school saw it, didn’t like it, and went on a crusade. She took his profile picture (which was a white coat pic) and tweeted it with a huge paragraph about how he is racist and going to be a doctor and how the school should kick him out. It got retweeted like a billion times because people don’t actually fact check anything they read anymore, and after getting tagged in thousands of tweets about why they’re letting a racist go to med school, they caved and kicked him out on professionalism.

Now I’m getting it second hand since it’s a friend’s friend. But I did see the post in question and I did see what they wrote about him. And my friend said as far as he knows there’s no deeper story, but obviously I can’t know for sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This is exactly why it’s never worth wading into that territory in any shape or form. I avoid political topics completely, without exception.

However nuanced your perspective, however long your caveat, however good your faith - if you’re in that conversation and not singing the exactly correct (#MedTwitter-approved) song - you’re making yourself vulnerable.

Yep. That’s why my only social media activity is posting videos of my cats on Instagram.

 

[Dave1980]

I don’t want to out him.

It got retweeted like a billion times.

Med school, they caved and kicked him out on professionalism.

the guy is already "outed". please share more details

 

[operaman]

I don’t want to out him, but I saw what he posted (it was about a Facebook post), and it was not racist or even unreasonable. It was just an unpopular opinion. A student from a different school saw it, didn’t like it, and went on a crusade. She took his profile picture (which was a white coat pic) and tweeted it with a huge paragraph about how he is racist and going to be a doctor and how the school should kick him out. It got retweeted like a billion times because people don’t actually fact check anything they read anymore, and after getting tagged in thousands of tweets about why they’re letting a racist go to med school, they caved and kicked him out on professionalism.

Now I’m getting it second hand since it’s a friend’s friend. But I did see the post in question and I did see what they wrote about him. And my friend said as far as he knows there’s no deeper story, but obviously I can’t know for sure.

If it’s who I think it is he is likely to win a fairly big payout in a lawsuit. Not only was his post not actually racist and mainstream enough that similar ideas have appeared on the pages of major newspapers, but he himself is a person of color. Seems like there’s room to make a case that if he were black and made the same statement he wouldn’t have been expelled. Of course much will hinge on the rest of his record, but if he was otherwise a regular student I think he might have a case.

I think he might also have a tortious interference claim against the SJWs on twitter and elsewhere who posted and emailed his dean with the sole purpose of depriving him of his livelihood. I’m just waiting for someone to do this and think a first generation Mexican-American, son of an immigrant and first in his family to go to Med school might be just the kind of person who could swing it. The law is pretty clear that if I call someones boss and get them fired, they can sue me for damages. It’s why no big company gives references anymore. Seems that these Twitter mobs need to realize that they too can face liability for the damage they cause.

 

[blockrudder1]

It’s more like applying for a job to be a carpenter and being told you are halfa$$ing it by someone who assumes you need to know irrigation techniques for organic timber farming.

that’s not my job, I do my actual job quite well

I see you've abstracted my analogy to imply that there is very little importance of understanding these societal components in patient care.
I suppose that if I valued patient outcomes as much as I valued the care of those close to me, I would be forgiven for missing some detail. But I would feel responsible for understanding that detail to avoid less than the best outcome I could provide.
You may think you don't need to know the irrigation techniques for your organic lumber, but when your chair falls apart and granny cracks her head, I bet finding out that you don't understand your raw supply doesn't offer much comfort.

 

[dr_kateb]

If you don't care about people, maybe this isn't the career for you.

OP, it looks like you didn't have a firm understanding of what being an individual's or community's physician entails. It's like you applied for a carpentry job because you like to hammer nails, but feel it shouldn't be required to learn to sand the edges. Fortunately you'll still be a carpenter, but unfortunately for those receiving your services, the result is halfa**ed.

Always love threads like this. Never fails to ring out the cringe moralistic judgements.

 

[Dave1980]

I see you've abstracted my analogy to imply that there is very little importance of understanding these societal components in patient care.
I suppose that if I valued patient outcomes as much as I valued the care of those close to me, I would be forgiven for missing some detail. But I would feel responsible for understanding that detail to avoid less than the best outcome I could provide.
You may think you don't need to know the irrigation techniques for your organic lumber, but when your chair falls apart and granny cracks her head, I bet finding out that you don't understand your raw supply doesn't offer much comfort.

lol we've officially gone into new and weird territory with the battling analogies

 

[blockrudder1]

lol we've officially gone into new and weird territory with the battling analogies

I'm just sour that my analogy got turned around against me. I wish I knew more about carpentry

 

[deleted480308]

I see you've abstracted my analogy to imply that there is very little importance of understanding these societal components in patient care.
I suppose that if I valued patient outcomes as much as I valued the care of those close to me, I would be forgiven for missing some detail. But I would feel responsible for understanding that detail to avoid less than the best outcome I could provide.
You may think you don't need to know the irrigation techniques for your organic lumber, but when your chair falls apart and granny cracks her head, I bet finding out that you don't understand your raw supply doesn't offer much comfort.

You haven’t done any carpentry if you think that makes sense.

we disagree wholeheartedly on this issue and I don’t see that changing

 

[blockrudder1]

You haven’t done any carpentry if you think that makes sense.

we disagree wholeheartedly on this issue and I don’t see that changing

I'm biased. I've been homeless and am mostly familiar with how a lack of knowledge about societal details specific to low SES patients and patients with substance use disorders translates to crappy care. But yeah I thought it sounded like it might work, I just hoped you would know less than me about capentry

 

[MavFab]

I'm biased. I've been homeless and am mostly familiar with how a lack of knowledge about societal details specific to low SES patients and patients with substance use disorders translates to crappy care. But yeah I thought it sounded like it might work, I just hoped you would know less than me about capentry

Unfortunately, you didn't realize you were talking to Ron freakin' Swanson.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm biased. I've been homeless and am mostly familiar with how a lack of knowledge about societal details specific to low SES patients and patients with substance use disorders translates to crappy care. But yeah I thought it sounded like it might work, I just hoped you would know less than me about capentry

I respect the effort and the intention, I just disagree with the premise

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If it’s who I think it is he is likely to win a fairly big payout in a lawsuit. Not only was his post not actually racist and mainstream enough that similar ideas have appeared on the pages of major newspapers, but he himself is a person of color. Seems like there’s room to make a case that if he were black and made the same statement he wouldn’t have been expelled. Of course much will hinge on the rest of his record, but if he was otherwise a regular student I think he might have a case.

I think he might also have a tortious interference claim against the SJWs on twitter and elsewhere who posted and emailed his dean with the sole purpose of depriving him of his livelihood. I’m just waiting for someone to do this and think a first generation Mexican-American, son of an immigrant and first in his family to go to Med school might be just the kind of person who could swing it. The law is pretty clear that if I call someones boss and get them fired, they can sue me for damages. It’s why no big company gives references anymore. Seems that these Twitter mobs need to realize that they too can face liability for the damage they cause.

I believe we are thinking of the same person. I told my friend to urge him to sue. It seems that the courts like to give the universities a lot of leeway in determining what is professional, but he might have a case. He certainly has a case against the twitter user who started it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm biased. I've been homeless and am mostly familiar with how a lack of knowledge about societal details specific to low SES patients and patients with substance use disorders translates to crappy care. But yeah I thought it sounded like it might work, I just hoped you would know less than me about capentry

I’ve been homeless too, and I still don’t think my school should force people to be lectured on climate change and the “right way” to feel about certain political issues (for the record, my school doesn’t). Educating on social determinants is totally a good thing, but there’s a line where it goes into indoctrination.

 

[DrRedstone]

I’ve been homeless too, and I still don’t think my school should force people to be lectured on climate change and the “right way” to feel about certain political issues (for the record, my school doesn’t). Educating on social determinants is totally a good thing, but there’s a line where it goes into indoctrination.

Climate change is actually weirdly relevant. Diseases that were once only seen in tropical regions are spreading further North. I don't have the citations off the top of my head if someone else knows them. For clean energy, we can find relevance in the pneumoconioses. Should we sit through hours of lecture for it? Maybe not, but I believe it merits at least some mention.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Climate change is actually weirdly relevant. Diseases that were once only seen in tropical regions are spreading further North. I don't have the citations off the top of my head if someone else knows them. For clean energy, we can find relevance in the pneumoconioses. Should we sit through hours of lecture for it? Maybe not, but I believe it merits at least some mention.

Yeah that’s not the kind of thing I mean. I don’t want to be lectured to for two hours about how I should be taking a political stand on climate change and how I should basically be a liberal.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Yeah that’s not the kind of thing I mean. I don’t want to be lectured to for two hours about how I should be taking a political stand on climate change and how I should basically be a liberal.

I've had lectures about microaggressions. IMO, those kinds of lectures don't belong in medical school unless done optionally and by a student-run club.

 

[blockrudder1]

I’ve been homeless too, and I still don’t think my school should force people to be lectured on climate change and the “right way” to feel about certain political issues (for the record, my school doesn’t). Educating on social determinants is totally a good thing, but there’s a line where it goes into indoctrination.

I agree, I think that there should be serious attention paid to the delivery of material as to avoid this university led "left" progressive push. Evidence based understandings in relevant context. However I imagine that if it wasn't required, only those who already believe it is important will participate. That misses an opportunity to expose those people who may unaware and uninterested, rather than in disagreement. I also think that not making these topics mandatory suggests "low yield" relevancy. But I'm required to learn about hairy cell leukemia, a disease my facilitators admit I'll likely never see, because I may otherwise be uninterested to seek it out myself.

 

[tl;dr]

This, 100%: Opinion | Med School Needs an Overhaul

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree, I think that there should be serious attention paid to the delivery of material as to avoid this university led "left" progressive push. Evidence based understandings in relevant context. However I imagine that if it wasn't required, only those who already believe it is important will participate. That misses an opportunity to expose those people who may unaware and uninterested, rather than in disagreement. I also think that not making these topics mandatory suggests "low yield" relevancy. But I'm required to learn about hairy cell leukemia, a disease my facilitators admit I'll likely never see, because I may otherwise be uninterested to seek it out myself.

You can make it mandatory without having it be indoctrination. We have it incorporated into our clinical reasoning sessions sometimes. When they aren’t adherent to their meds, find out why because it might be that the drug you prescribed them is more than they can afford, and it’s either take that or eat. Stuff like that.

 

[operaman]

I believe we are thinking of the same person. I told my friend to urge him to sue. It seems that the courts like to give the universities a lot of leeway in determining what is professional, but he might have a case. He certainly has a case against the twitter user who started it.

Yeah it would be an interesting case. The school use the professionalism umbrella but I think there’s a genuine finding for a jury to determine if the definition of professionalism is different for different races. If it is then that’s a violation of federal law.

Personally I want him to nail the Twitter Mob so people start thinking twice about destroying lives because they disagree politically. I don’t necessarily agree with his original post in substance but I damn well believe he should be able to voice a mainstream opinion identical to those printed in major newspapers without losing his career.

 

[blockrudder1]

You can make it mandatory without having it be indoctrination. We have it incorporated into our clinical reasoning sessions sometimes. When they aren’t adherent to their meds, find out why because it might be that the drug you prescribed them is more than they can afford, and it’s either take that or eat. Stuff like that.

Definitely, indoctrination is the antithesis of our evidence based approach to medicine. Leaving it up to universities is also asking for serious challenges to objectivity. I guess as members of a profession where we are supposed to learn to sift through the BS to find an answer, we should be somewhat well equipped to not be indoctrinated and approach it critically

 

[deleted480308]

You can make it mandatory without having it be indoctrination. We have it incorporated into our clinical reasoning sessions sometimes. When they aren’t adherent to their meds, find out why because it might be that the drug you prescribed them is more than they can afford, and it’s either take that or eat. Stuff like that.

Knowing some of your patients can’t afford some meds is good education, being told you now have tk want govt to buy them is indoctrination