Stanford v. Michigan v. Colorado v. UNC

[lamusayonga]

UPDATE: Thanks so much to everyone for the help. I ended up going with Michigan and am happy to spend the next 4 years in Ann Arbor. Now I just need to stock up on maize and blue for weekends at the Big House. That, and heavier coats/snow boots. Big thanks to you all for talking through this decision with me and laying out some points that I definitely would have overlooked. Y'all are great.

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[Slack3r]

Michigan is an exceptional school, with a top reputation and well regarded programs in pretty much every specialty. While the Stanford name is nice, UMich is definitely comparable, especially at $190k cheaper.

 

[wagonwheel23]

Stanford and Michigan seem like your best options. I would look at the rental market in the Palo Alto and AA areas to help you decide. The type of home you could live in may make your decision easier. The Bay is fantastic for the outdoors (I am counting the days until I can move back), but housing costs are so painful.

 

[begoood95]

I'll dissent and say that, from your perspective, it seems like you really like UNC, and that it would provide a nice environment for you and your SO. However, Michigan is a nice option as well. Stanford is very expensive it seems, and if money is an issue than it might be wiser for you to choose one of the cheaper schools; then again, you're right about the "prestige" factor and what that comes with.

You've laid out a pretty balanced list of pros vs. cons, so I'm having a hard time figuring out which would be best for you. I'm leaning towards Michigan, away from Colorado, and a bit towards UNC as well; it's hard for me to shake off the allure of Stanford, so there's that too.

If I were in your position, I would be choosing between Stanford and Michigan. However, your pros list for UNC makes it seem like that would be a good fit.

Side note: the "since I cannot come to a decision on my own, I’ve decided the best option is to post potentially identifiable information about myself online so that anonymous strangers will advise me on a choice that will dramatically affect the next 4-40 years of my life" was great.

I think you and your SO will be in great shape in any of these places. Good luck!

 

[prayer525]

UNC - good weather and all the pros you listed.

 

[libertyyne]

Michigan, 4 years of tundra and then what ever you want to go afterwards.

 

[deev04]

I think the Stanford is one of the schools potentially worth extra debt (for certain people, in certain circumstances).

But, Michigan is incredible and your list of pros/cons seems to make Michigan look like the better option. Being able to graduate medical school with only 40k of debt is an incredible fortune and being able to do that from one of the top medical schools in the country only more so.

Medical school is hard and if finding a job for your SO near Stanford would be challenging, that seems like a significant negative. Having a support system during school is key and putting a strain on your SO or potentially your relationship trying to make the job/starting a life situation work seems like something definitely worth considering. I know you mentioned you're not sure if you want to be in the midwest longterm, but from your description of the type of place you'd like to live (small and medium-sized cities, access to rural communities, enjoy the outdoors-sun/mountains), Ann Arbor seems like it might be a great fit. At the very least a place where you could more readily "start a life" in terms of a job for your SO and COL. If you end up loving it, or at least liking it enough to stay for a few more years, the opportunity to match at UM snd stay settled while accessing some of the best residencies and training in the country seems like a plus. Of course, with UM's reputation and resources, I can't imagine you'll have too much difficulty going anywhere you want (particularly if you're looking at smaller cities).

 

[efle]

the difference between Stanford vs Michigan is potentially worth [a quarter mil+]

curious abt this, what makes you say this?

 

[deev04]

curious abt this, what makes you say this?

I would probably amend my statement to emphasize that Stanford (in general, not just compared to UM) is a school probably worth extra debt (for certain people, in certain circumstances).

I almost always think following the money is the smartest choice (unless family money is in play) and that the difference in medical school reputation is not worth a considerably higher debt burden. Med school reputation is distinct from most other professional schools' reputations in that degree institution matters significantly less (compared to say Law/Business School). An MD is an MD and residency is going to matter more.

However, the opportunities at the tippity top seem to give a noticeable edge (both in terms of MS opportunities and residency/career prospects). This difference seems most extreme at the very top (i.e. the difference between Top 5 vs Top 15/20/30, is far greater than the difference between Top 10-20 vs Top 30/40 and so forth). Match lists are difficult to interpret, but HMS/Penn/Stanford/UCSF/Hopkins' are unquestionably amazing. If academic medicine at certain places is really where you see yourself, it's hard to deny the value of these degrees. That's what I mean by 230k maybe being worth it.

230k is a lot of debt, but not that much more than the national average. I also consistently hear Stanford students mention being able to knock off a not insignificant chunk of their debt through plentiful RA/TA positions.

My vote would still be for Michigan for OP though. Top 10ish school, 40k COA (ugh, the dream), better lifestyle setup

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I vote for Mich.

I'm surprised that you haven't rec'd any FA from S. I would expect them to offer at least $15k per year.

Going to S over Mich really doesn't offer you much or anything. Mich can get you where you want to be. Do well there, score strongly on Step exams, and you can get a competitive residency if desired.

 

[citykid92]

I definitely vote Mich too (or Stanford if you can stomach the money). UNC and Colorado are good schools but Stanford and Mich are in entirely different categories than them. Especially if you could be interested in something competitive. I know the Stanford debt is a lot of money but doctors can always pay back their debt and live very comfortably financially as long as they don't make some massive mistake/aren't terrible with money. If you think you would be happiest at Stanford, I wouldn't let the money scare you off.

 

[libertyyne]

I would probably amend my statement to emphasize that Stanford (in general, not just compared to UM) is a school probably worth extra debt (for certain people, in certain circumstances).

I almost always think following the money is the smartest choice (unless family money is in play) and that the difference in medical school reputation is not worth a considerably higher debt burden. Med school reputation is distinct from most other professional schools' reputations in that degree institution matters significantly less (compared to say Law/Business School). An MD is an MD and residency is going to matter more.

However, the opportunities at the tippity top seem to give a noticeable edge (both in terms of MS opportunities and residency/career prospects). This difference seems most extreme at the very top (i.e. the difference between Top 5 vs Top 15/20/30, is far greater than the difference between Top 10-20 vs Top 30/40 and so forth). Match lists are difficult to interpret, but HMS/Penn/Stanford/UCSF/Hopkins' are unquestionably amazing. If academic medicine at certain places is really where you see yourself, it's hard to deny the value of these degrees. That's what I mean by 230k maybe being worth it.

230k is a lot of debt, but not that much more than the national average. I also consistently hear Stanford students mention being able to knock off a not insignificant chunk of their debt through plentiful RA/TA positions.

My vote would still be for Michigan for OP though. Top 10ish school, 40k COA (ugh, the dream), better lifestyle setup

I think a caveat to the opportunities piece is taking advantage of them. If the school has the best genomics or implantable researchers in the world and you have no interest in those fields vs a school that is still in a similar league and has an amazing public health program that you are more interested in it would make sense to forgo the better school for the one with the public health program that you are going to be more engaged in. 190 K difference is huge if you are planing on going into primary care, pediatrics , path, child neuro, or IM. The debt burden would definitely make the difference between you choosing an area of practice that might be undeserved and pays less or pursuing interesting avenues beyond clinical medicine (advocacy, global health, public health) .

 

[deev04]

agree, which is why I included the caveat "(for certain people, in certain circumstances)." all about a little introspection and understanding your own situation

 

[Slack3r]

I would probably amend my statement to emphasize that Stanford (in general, not just compared to UM) is a school probably worth extra debt (for certain people, in certain circumstances).

I almost always think following the money is the smartest choice (unless family money is in play) and that the difference in medical school reputation is not worth a considerably higher debt burden. Med school reputation is distinct from most other professional schools' reputations in that degree institution matters significantly less (compared to say Law/Business School). An MD is an MD and residency is going to matter more.

However, the opportunities at the tippity top seem to give a noticeable edge (both in terms of MS opportunities and residency/career prospects). This difference seems most extreme at the very top (i.e. the difference between Top 5 vs Top 15/20/30, is far greater than the difference between Top 10-20 vs Top 30/40 and so forth). Match lists are difficult to interpret, but HMS/Penn/Stanford/UCSF/Hopkins' are unquestionably amazing. If academic medicine at certain places is really where you see yourself, it's hard to deny the value of these degrees. That's what I mean by 230k maybe being worth it.

230k is a lot of debt, but not that much more than the national average. I also consistently hear Stanford students mention being able to knock off a not insignificant chunk of their debt through plentiful RA/TA positions.

My vote would still be for Michigan for OP though. Top 10ish school, 40k COA (ugh, the dream), better lifestyle setup

I think you're overestimating the difference between Stanford (#2) and UMich (#9), aside from maybe the "ooohs" and "ahhhs" you may get from somebody's grandmother.

 

[deev04]

As I clarified above, I more meant that Stanford is probably one of the few schools I think might be worth extra debt (for certain people, in certain circumstances). Not necessarily that it's worth it because of the difference between UM and Stanford. Choosing Stanford over UM because of the difference between #2 and #9 and granny thinks it's a household name is silly. You're an adult. Granny isn't going to be going to go to residency interviews and granny ain't gonna be paying those loans (unless she is, which hey thanks GMa). Granny and lay people also often have a poor grasp on prestige in the medical community (e.g. Georgetown SOM, Cleveland Clinic IM residency).

tl;dr Taking on 200k of debt to go to a higher rank school is almost always dumb, 200k to go to Stanford (and you could throw some other schools in there) might not be dumb in every situation. My vote for OP is still UM.

 

[Topper3434]

Michigan is the smart choice here. You (and your wallet) will thank yourself someday.

 

[speedyxx626]

Why is this even a debate?? GO TO MICHIGAN. The difference between Michigan and stanford's ranking is so small that it makes choosing Michigan that much easier. Both are research power houses and going to one or the other won't close any doors for you. Unless of course you see yourself being miserable at one or the other.

 

[WorksInProgress]

First, @lamusayonga congrats on your cycle and the great choices you have. Second, ignore anyone who tells you this is an "easy decision" or a "no-brainer." It is not.

Full disclosure, I'm a non-trad at Stanford Med. I turned down quite a few full COA packages (including from Michigan and a few other perennial 'top 10' school) to come here. So clearly I'm not big on the 'free/cheapest school is best school' received wisdom that prevails here. And before someone mentions the standard 'It's easy to say that when you haven't had to pay back the debt,' remember that non-trad part? Yeah, I'm quite experienced in paying back debt, thanks.

So, with that said... I love it here. I would make the same decision 95 times out of 100. This place is incredible, and every year I am more thankful than the last that I chose here. That said, were I in your shoes, I would not come here. For me, I set a certain number, let's call it X, which was at the limit of me being comfortable taking on in debt. Below this number, I considered all schools to be equivalent cost, whether they cost 0 or X. That way, cost was out of the equation for schools with a COA X or less. For me to consider schools with a COA over X, there would have to be something particularly compelling to take on more debt than I was comfortable with.

$230,000 is well over X, for me. And Stanford is not so compelling over my other packages to make me take on that level of debt. Even though this place is just gobsmackingly amazing. Did I mention I love it here? I love it here. I would suggest figuring out your own X. If X>230,000, come here. Seriously, you will not regret it.

Now, if X<230,000, you have a really think about if Stanford is compelling enough, given your goals and the kind of life you want to live. If not, then this becomes Michigan vs. UNC. For me, Michigan is the clear winner in that H2H. But it sounds like you really feel good about being in North Carolina and not so great about the prospect of Michigan winters. (This is not trivial. Weather was a huge part of my choice, and being able to do outdoor sports year-round has gotten me through some tough times in med school) That said, Michigan seems to align more with your career goals than UNC. So perhaps the cold is worth it. Like I said at the beginning, not an easy decision.

Good luck!

 

[WedgeDawg]

Your about me screams Michigan

 

[oopsaloo]

my question was already answered congrats OP!