Social Justice in Medicine

[deleted480308]

Idc to continue this conversation tbh

It took a neo-conservative twist due to individuals who aren't even med students and I much prefer the more progressive feel of the med student and pre med forums.

It is important to note you have some factual misunderstandings of some things and when you couple that with your strong emotions you can start throwing out some unfair accusations. It might do you good to discuss things longer term with people you don’t agree with

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You're actually using it incorrectly.

I'm not quick to throw out the term racist. I don't recall calling any individual person a racist I said race realists are racist and then quoted wikipedia.

You heavily implied several users were racist because they disagreed with your assertion that considering the race of a patient has no place in medicine. You also said there were several users here who are race realists and then said all race realists racist.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You're actually using it incorrectly.

I'm not quick to throw out the term racist. I don't recall calling any individual person a racist I said race realists are racist and then quoted wikipedia.

I'm actually not

 

[deleted804295]

It is important to note you have some factual misunderstandings of some things and when you couple that with your strong emotions you can start throwing out some unfair accusations. It might do you good to discuss things longer term with people you don’t agree with

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

This thread aside, you’re actually hurting your cause by being so aggressive and vindictive. If you feel that you know better than them, it would serve your cause and patients in general for you to engage them in a dialogue in an attempt to educate them.

I have converted several anti-vaxxers through being kind and hearing them out, then explaining my point of view and the facts. I’ve also converted some people from being homophobic to at least being okay with gays doing their own thing, and I’ve gotten a few people to admit that hitting your kids doesn’t work and that there are better ways to discipline.

Had I just yelled at and tried to shame these people, none of that would have happened.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This thread aside, you’re actually hurting your cause by being so aggressive and vindictive. If you feel that you know better than them, it would serve your cause and patients in general for you to engage them in a dialogue in an attempt to educate them.

I have converted several anti-vaxxers through being kind and hearing them out, then explaining my point of view and the facts. I’ve also converted some people from being homophobic to at least being okay with gays doing their own thing, and I’ve gotten a few people to admit that hitting your kids doesn’t work and that there are better ways to discipline.

Had I just yelled at and tried to shame these people, none of that would have happened.

There is actually some pretty good evidence in the literature that suggest this approach is the most effective in terms of anti-vaccine.

we haven't studied it for anything else, but there's no reason to think it would not apply to other areas.

 

[deleted804295]

This thread aside, you’re actually hurting your cause by being so aggressive and vindictive. If you feel that you know better than them, it would serve your cause and patients in general for you to engage them in a dialogue in an attempt to educate them.

I have converted several anti-vaxxers through being kind and hearing them out, then explaining my point of view and the facts. I’ve also converted some people from being homophobic to at least being okay with gays doing their own thing, and I’ve gotten a few people to admit that hitting your kids doesn’t work and that there are better ways to discipline.

Had I just yelled at and tried to shame these people, none of that would have happened.

I haven't reported any of my classmates but I can ensure you that 99% of my other peers have. My classmates are predominantly progressive.

 

[Neopolymath]

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

So they didn't actually do anything bad but now may have career repercussions from someone in the class (you?). Sure report someone who says something obscene on Twitter or in the Library if that's your style. Unless there is more to the story, someone could get their career tanked because a fellow M1 is being the double secret morality police against someone they have no authority over.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I haven't reported any of my classmates but I can ensure you that 99% of my other peers have. My classmates are predominantly progressive.

I'm actually very glad to hear that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There is actually some pretty good evidence in the literature that suggest this approach is the most effective in terms of anti-vaccine.

we haven't studied it for anything else, but there's no reason to think it would not apply to other areas.

I’ve seen that, and that’s actually what caused me to start using that tactic. Anecdotally it has not failed me yet. I have had a couple people tell me that had they felt like someone had validated their concerns before and taken the time to address them, they probably would have come around sooner.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to the militant psychos who send death threads to Dr. Offit.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I haven't reported any of my classmates but I can ensure you that 99% of my other peers have. My classmates are predominantly progressive.

That’s good that you haven’t, but it’s a shame that your class is made up predominantly of people who are so ready to damage someone’s career over a disagreement. I am quite liberal and progressive and would never dream of potentially damaging someone’s career because they disagree with me.

 

[Neopolymath]

That’s good that you haven’t, but it’s a shame that your class is made up predominantly of people who are so ready to damage someone’s career over a disagreement. I am quite liberal and progressive and would never dream of potentially damaging someone’s career because they disagree with me.

It's just asinine. It's like calling the swat team on your neighbor when texting them that you need to get up early so please turn the music down will do just fine. This is today's culture unfortunately. No dialogue without outrage or really even knowing the other person's motivation or thought process. I know people in my class that would never attend workshops like this, and as I've said a million times in this thread, they agree with the message but literally just don't want to be there and want to schedule their day in a different order. That's perfectly valid as an adult paying 50k a year to learn medical science. To think someone is out there being nosy is troubling. To find out they aren't nosy enough to even know why people skip these things is even more troubling.

 

[deleted480308]

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

I didn’t say “have to”, I said you would benefit from it. You seem to be saying that folks who don’t agree with you on the depth of needed discussion are somehow racist. What precisely were your classmates “reported” for?

 

[Osminog]

When person A calls person B a racist, it doesn’t help me determine if what person B says is true or not. All it does is tell me that person A is offended by what person B has to say.

I wish discussions like the one in this thread could be focused on whether certain evidence is persuasive and certain factual claims are accurate, not on whether Charles Murray, “race realists,” and various SDN users are racist. It’s easy to speculate about everybody’s motives and to put unflattering labels on people—but it’s not all that constructive or interesting.

 

[jurassicpark]

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

This is one of the scariest things I've read related to academics in a long time.

I actually had a discussion about this with our clinical coordinator. A lot of the older doctors I work with are more conservative by nature. Does that mean they're racist? No, but they're definitely not "woke" as it would be defined today. I was extremely fearful that a student would hear something they did not agree with it, misconstrue it and get onto social media to blast it. So I made it very clear that they have to realize that not everyone shares the same view, or degree of that view. But when people are ready to penalize others for not having either the same viewpoint or even to the same degree as others.. it is quite frightening. And quite easy to see how on either side of the spectrum can rapidly degenerate to more... radical and draconian measures.

 

[Mass Effect]

Dude (or ma'am), take a look at school curricula or at what's happening on the streets or to the statues of this country. This isn't the work of right-wingers

It's the work of protestors from both parties and plenty of people - from both parties - also disapprove of the violence that's been triggered. You saying it's all leftist BS is just as inflammatory and untrue as others suggesting everyone not falling in line is racist.

When racially-oriented propaganda and violence are sanctioned and encouraged by mainstream Leftist institutions like politicians, universities, and woke corporations, yeah, I can damn well say that the Left is FUBAR

Please cite source for sanctioned violence by "mainstream Leftist institutions."

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I haven't reported any of my classmates but I can ensure you that 99% of my other peers have. My classmates are predominantly progressive.

It’s unfortunate that your peers do that. Imagine if the political tides were reversed and you could be reported, and possibly have your career destroyed, for not wanting to learn conservative social values in school, would you be ok with that?

 

[TwoHighways]

You couldn’t draw up a better caricature of everything wrong with the SJW movement other than the not reporting classmates bit, which is the one exception that makes the views expressed by Sunbodi genuine and not cause suspicions that he/she/zee is simply trolling for the lulz.

I fear that a very vocal minority that feels similarly, cancels/doxxes people on Twitter, and violently protests in the streets is going to fuel an equally ugly response from those on the radical right and we get stuck in a violent positive feedback loop that leads to the end of America as we know it.

If we can’t engage in civil discussion and simply agree to disagree, all that’s left is to resort to our more primitive natures of tribalism and violence.

 

[dr_kateb]

I haven't reported any of my classmates but I can ensure you that 99% of my other peers have. My classmates are predominantly progressive.

Ah yes the tolerant and empathetic “progressives.”

 

[deleted480308]

It's the work of protestors from both parties and plenty of people - from both parties - also disapprove of the violence that's been triggered. You saying it's all leftist BS is just as inflammatory and untrue as others suggesting everyone not falling in line is racist.



Please cite source for sanctioned violence by "mainstream Leftist institutions."

I’d say one of the more famous examples was the mayor of baltimore years ago saying to give “room to destroy” to rioters, and local govt around chaz was similarly disappointing

 

[deleted804295]

You couldn’t draw up a better caricature of everything wrong with the SJW movement other than the not reporting classmates bit, which is the one exception that makes the views expressed by Sunbodi genuine and not cause suspicions that he/she/zee is simply trolling for the lulz.

I fear that a very vocal minority that feels similarly, cancels/doxxes people on Twitter, and violently protests in the streets is going to fuel an equally ugly response from those on the radical right and we get stuck in a violent positive feedback loop that leads to the end of America as we know it.

If we can’t engage in civil discussion and simply agree to disagree, all that’s left is to resort to our more primitive natures of tribalism and violence.

Why do you feel the need to insult someone's pronouns?

 

[TwoHighways]

Why do you feel the need to insult someone's pronouns?

I thought I was being politically correct. May I ask what pronouns you prefer? And is that your only takeaway from what I had to say?

 

[Damson]

 

[Mass Effect]

I’d say one of the more famous examples was the mayor of baltimore years ago saying to give “room to destroy” to rioters, and local govt around chaz was similarly disappointing

Fringes on both sides have been idiots about the riots, including the man (using the term loosely) in the White House, but they're hardly evidence of sanctioned violence by a political party. The violence is caused by yahoos on both sides who belong in handcuffs.

 

[M&L]

That’s good that you haven’t, but it’s a shame that your class is made up predominantly of people who are so ready to damage someone’s career over a disagreement. I am quite liberal and progressive and would never dream of potentially damaging someone’s career because they disagree with me.

i am with you there. I am personally bisexual Buddhist vegan who shops only for environmentally friendly household stuff, etc (you get the "type" hahaha). i shop in thrift shops to try to reduce waste, etc. i consider myself to be VERY progressive.

BUT this is the way i understand being progressive and liberal (just my own definition, not trying to start an argument here): i believe that being progressive and liberal does not mean that everyone has to have my beliefs. To me it means that they should have the right to have whatever beliefs they want, as long as they are expressing them in a respectful way that does not hurt me personally. You would NEVER hear me lecture someone on their eating habits, or talking about animal cruelty, etc, for example, because i believe that it is inappropriate for me to push people to believe what i do.SO, to me, - this is what being progressive really means: instead of trying to mold the world to your own design, being able to accept the world as it is and have a dialogue with those who do not share your views.

 

[M&L]

I thought I was being politically correct. May I ask what pronouns you prefer? And is that your only takeaway from what I had to say?

I also dont understand (and i am LGBTQ member)... maybe it is a cultural thing? or just a perception thing? I am not sure. But if i am wrong, - i really want to know so that i can change and improve myself. So, why is that rude?

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

I really dont have to have long term discussions with individuals who think race relations topics are 'SJW' and don't have a place in medicine. My medical class has a year dedicated to understanding race relations and I can't imagine what that year would be like for a student who refuses to want to learn from it.

There are a few in my class who have been like this and they've already been reported.

Nah, you gotta chill. There is a reason there is a 'far right' group... And its because the far left is intolerant, while claiming the other side is intolerant.
If you think someone with right-leaning views/ politics different from yours has no right being a doctor, are you saying you'd refuse to treat a patient who comes in wearing a MAGA hat or something? Because that'll make you exactly what you're fighting against.
As a POC/minority, I've seen progressives/liberals shout people down and become so loud that the actual marginalized people lose their voices and the actual issues never get addressed.

You can educate people without forcing your views on them/accusing them of intolerance.

 

[deleted480308]

Fringes on both sides have been idiots about the riots, including the man (using the term loosely) in the White House, but they're hardly evidence of sanctioned violence by a political party. The violence is caused by yahoos on both sides who belong in handcuffs.

you asked what major institutions were supporting violence and I gave you two mayors of major cities, i guess we disagree on the definition there

but we do seem to agree that anyone running around breaking stuff, hurting people, and setting things on fire should be in cuffs

 

[TwoHighways]

I’m just happy that there has largely been a repudiation of some of the more cringey aspects of SJW activism in this thread. Clearly a case has been made for the importance of a physician to have an understanding of sociological determinants of health, but the implication that it’s entirely the fault of unconscious bias of physicians or “systemic racism” is extremely narrow minded, as is labeling anyone with differing views as a racist.

The other thing that strikes me is how few actionable solutions are put forth, assuming there are structurally racist components of medicine still in existence. Besides the pulse oximetry thing (which I don’t feel the designers did out of malice for darker skinned people), what else is there to correct for that doesn’t have a bunch of confounding factors (the biggest of which in many cases is simply economic status).

Economic status and class is so often conflated with arguments supporting the existence of structural racism. Wealth is a hell of a privilege. Much more so than skin color. If you want down to earth people in medicine, maybe stop holding community college credits against applicants that demonstrate competency based on other metrics (ala the MCAT).

 

[blockrudder1]

I’m just happy that there has largely been a repudiation of some of the more cringey aspects of SJW activism in this thread. Clearly a case has been made for the importance of a physician to have an understanding of sociological determinants of health, but the implication that it’s entirely the fault of unconscious bias of physicians or “systemic racism” is extremely narrow minded, as is labeling anyone with differing views as a racist.

So you might agree that these factors do play a role, while "not entirely the fault of." That sounds more practical than believing these ideas have no merit whatsoever. Therefore, these topics "creeping into" our education may have value. As @AnatomyGrey12 pointed out, we need to have these discussions to allow for constructive conversation between peers.

It is important to note you have some factual misunderstandings of some things and when you couple that with your strong emotions you can start throwing out some unfair accusations. It might do you good to discuss things longer term with people you don’t agree with

But medical school has to do this in a manner that, as @ThetisAntithesis pointed out, is not laden with bias - but instead presented with data.

Nah, you gotta chill. There is a reason there is a 'far right' group... And its because the far left is intolerant, while claiming the other side is intolerant.
If you think someone with right-leaning views/ politics different from yours has no right being a doctor, are you saying you'd refuse to treat a patient who comes in wearing a MAGA hat or something? Because that'll make you exactly what you're fighting against.
As a POC/minority, I've seen progressives/liberals shout people down and become so loud that the actual marginalized people lose their voices and the actual issues never get addressed.

You can educate people without forcing your views on them/accusing them of intolerance.

Can we agree that if there is any merit at all at these topics affect patient outcomes, that they should have a place in a physicians education?

As I said in my last post - I basically don't see why not. Unless you're incapable of forming your own conclusions (indoctrination), or are made so uncomfortable by the topics that you would rather leave the conversation. But, I guess if they hypothetically made you that uncomfortable, it would be hard to convince me that they didn't affect you in the slightest when presented with them in the flesh in the intimate relationship that is a physician's visit.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Can we agree that if there is any merit at all at these topics affect patient outcomes, that they should have a place in a physicians education?

What you bolded isn’t saying it has no merit. It is saying we can be educated without being told one way of thought is the only correct way, so your response is kind of tilting at windmills. If something has impact on the care of our patients, we should learn about it and preferably learn about practical ways we can work through it. That doesn’t need to involve being told I should be advocating for Medicare for all or voting a certain way or whatever.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What you bolded isn’t saying it has no merit. It is saying we can be educated without being told one way of thought is the only correct way, so your response is kind of tilting at windmills. If something has impact on the care of our patients, we should learn about it and preferably learn about practical ways we can work through it. That doesn’t need to involve being told I should be advocating for Medicare for all or voting a certain way or whatever.

Exactly. The mandatory stuff should be: here are the issues your patients may face and here are ways to help the patient sitting in front of you. Concrete stuff. No insurance? Here's how you find coupons, drug company charity programs, FQHCs, stuff like that. Homeless? Here are some of the issues we typically see with homelessness and ways to help address them on a per patient level. Doesn't speak English, here's how to best interact with them through a translator.

Society level issue lectures should be optional. This is where you can talk about how to address homelessness as a general problem.

 

[blockrudder1]

What you bolded isn’t saying it has no merit. It is saying we can be educated without being told one way of thought is the only correct way, so your response is kind of tilting at windmills. If something has impact on the care of our patients, we should learn about it and preferably learn about practical ways we can work through it. That doesn’t need to involve being told I should be advocating for Medicare for all or voting a certain way or whatever.

Right, I know? And I agree.

...but OP didn't start this thread by saying we shouldn't be told to hold certain political view points.

OP said "Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships."

Thats what I disagree with. You and so many others are taking this original argument and conflating it with political agenda. He originally DID question the merit of including this information AT ALL.

Who wants to come to school to learn from the mouth of a mainstream news anchor? That wasn't the original arguement made in this thread.

 

[blockrudder1]

Exactly. The mandatory stuff should be: here are the issues your patients may face and here are ways to help the patient sitting in front of you. Concrete stuff. No insurance? Here's how you find coupons, drug company charity programs, FQHCs, stuff like that. Homeless? Here are some of the issues we typically see with homelessness and ways to help address them on a per patient level. Doesn't speak English, here's how to best interact with them through a translator.

Society level issue lectures should be optional. This is where you can talk about how to address homelessness as a general problem.

Seriously? Optional lectures = sleeping in. The only students who will participate will be those who already believe it is important to learn. How can you facilitate constructive conversation with only one viewpoint? Do you really think OP will attend this optional lecture and have the opportunity to enlighten us?

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

I do think these topics should be taught in medical school.
Some should be optional, some mandatory. Most medical students are young and of a certain demographic, a lot of times there has been no exposure to real world circumstances which can lead them to have biased and untrue opinions about others is a lower SE class and yes, race, which can inevitably lead to bias in healthcare depending on how deep those biases run.

Just my opinion.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Right, I know? And I agree.

...but OP didn't start this thread by saying we shouldn't be told to hold certain political view points.

OP said "Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships."

Thats what I disagree with. You and so many others are taking this original argument and conflating it with political agenda. He originally DID question the merit of including this information AT ALL.

Who wants to come to school to learn from the mouth of a mainstream news anchor? That wasn't the original arguement made in this thread.

Yeah I don’t see the difference there. He specifically said things like climate change and race relations. His OP to me sounded like he was talking about learning about the political side of things, which you agree isn’t applicable. He can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you guys actually mostly agree.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Seriously? Optional lectures = sleeping in. The only students who will participate will be those who already believe it is important to learn. How can you facilitate constructive conversation with only one viewpoint? Do you really think OP will attend this optional lecture and have the opportunity to enlighten us?

And I shouldn’t have to go to a lecture that is only tangentially related to medicine if I don’t want to. I’d love lectures on how to tackle these issues with the patient in front of me. I have zero interest in politics and will never be involved in it, and it doesn’t make me a better or worse doctor to not discuss political solutions.

 

[blockrudder1]

Yeah I don’t see the difference there. He specifically said things like climate change and race relations. His OP to me sounded like he was talking about learning about the political side of things, which you agree isn’t applicable. He can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you guys actually mostly agree.

Climate change, race relations, and "covid hysteria" have actual factual substance. As headlines on CNN or Fox News, they have agenda. Social justice has substance, but a a headline has an agenda.
These topics need to be included, mandatory, and recognized as having an impact on the health of patients. But not presented as clickbate news.
OP suggested that these topics, substance or headline, have any place in medical education. I disagree with the former.

Unless they want to clarify?

 

[blockrudder1]

And I shouldn’t have to go to a lecture that is only tangentially related to medicine if I don’t want to. I’d love lectures on how to tackle these issues with the patient in front of me. I have zero interest in politics and will never be involved in it, and it doesn’t make me a better or worse doctor to not discuss political solutions.

You're right. But you can discuss the substance of these topics without assigning a political agenda. If medical school taught it, i believe it is likely to have some bias. But as a capable medical student, you should be able to pull the substance.
I just dont understand how these topics can be viewed as tangential to patient outcomes but topics like the histopathology of hairy cell leukemia has a greater impact on the patients you'll see.

 

[blockrudder1]

I do think these topics should be taught in medical school.
Some should be optional, some mandatory. Most medical students are young and of a certain demographic, a lot of times there has been no exposure to real world circumstances which can lead them to have biased and untrue opinions about others is a lower SE class and yes, race, which can inevitably lead to bias in healthcare depending on how deep those biases run.

Just my opinion.

Right, but if we can't trust medical students to be objective to some degree and not be totally impressionable, then I'm seriously concerned for the trajectory of our country.

 

[TwoHighways]

I should be able to express everything I’ve put forth in this thread without the threat of cancellation or referral to the office of SJW buzzwords for re-education about all the ways my points of view are racist and a violation to the safe spaces and “academic freedom” of others, along with a coerced apology. The alarming part of this is that this post isn’t hyperbole.

As a society, if we continue to attack the reasonable freedom of speech, expression, and thought in such a manner, it will be to our collective peril. The fact that we haven’t learned from the atrocities of the 20th century is a stunning indictment to our education system.

 

[M&L]

I should be able to express everything I’ve put forth in this thread without the threat of cancellation or referral to the office of SJW buzzwords for re-education about all the ways my points of view are racist and a violation to the safe spaces and “academic freedom” of others, along with a coerced apology. The alarming part of this is that this post isn’t hyperbole.

As a society, if we continue to attack the reasonable freedom of speech, expression, and thought in such a manner, it will be to our collective peril. The fact that we haven’t learned from the atrocities of the 20th century is a stunning indictment to our education system.

hmmm.... this thread has been going on for NINE PAGES already, and if you see my previous post - i openly supported the idea that people should be allowed to express their thoughts in a polite way, and this is part of a healthy dialogue. We havent cancelled it so far, because it is impressive how constructive and respectful (mostly) this has been going.
SO, you are fine (so far, mostly).

 

[deleted480308]

Seriously? Optional lectures = sleeping in. The only students who will participate will be those who already believe it is important to learn. How can you facilitate constructive conversation with only one viewpoint? Do you really think OP will attend this optional lecture and have the opportunity to enlighten us?

Then sleep in during the optional part because those aren’t required to be a good doctor

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Climate change, race relations, and "covid hysteria" have actual factual substance. As headlines on CNN or Fox News, they have agenda. Social justice has substance, but a a headline has an agenda.
These topics need to be included, mandatory, and recognized as having an impact on the health of patients. But not presented as clickbate news.
OP suggested that these topics, substance or headline, have any place in medical education. I disagree with the former.

Unless they want to clarify?

Climate change politics and race relations are not required to be a good doctor. Covid hysteria I can see the relevance. Can climate change affect health on a population level? Of course. And in a public health lecture I would not even bat an eye seeing it and would probably find it interesting. I don’t think that’s what anyone is talking about. There is not a dichotomy where you either talk about it in a completely political way or you don’t talk about it at all.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You're right. But you can discuss the substance of these topics without assigning a political agenda.

Yes that is my whole point. But there are schools that are pushing agendas on their students, and that’s inappropriate.

 

[TwoHighways]

hmmm.... this thread has been going on for NINE PAGES already, and if you see my previous post - i openly supported the idea that people should be allowed to express their thoughts in a polite way, and this is part of a healthy dialogue. We havent cancelled it so far, because it is impressive how constructive and respectful (mostly) this has been going.
SO, you are fine (so far, mostly).

It’s not SDN I’m concerned about, though I applaud moderators for not caving to pressure to lock this thread. It’s the consequences I’d experience IRL for expressing the views I have anonymously here (which is a risk in and of itself because someone vindictive and tech savvy enough could figure out who I was) that I take issue with.

 

[DrRedstone]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive I think what you are asking for has a lot more to do with empathy and counseling technique. As physicians, I don't think that we receive enough training on how to actually talk with patients in an empathetic way. A lot of the problems our patients face are things that we can learn about easily if we just learned how to listen first. For example, a black woman coming in complaining of pain feels like her doctor isn't adequately helping her control it. But if the doctor took the time to actually listen to her concerns rather than assume he knew the answer the problem may have been solved before it became a problem. I can't say with certainty that every single problem regarding race, gender identity, or any other issue can be boiled down to just conversation and listening, but I do get the very strong impression that we can solve many of these problems by becoming better listeners.

Things like systemic racism aren't overcome by talking about the overarching problems, they're overcome by people like us taking the time to treat everyone with a dignity and respect that they deserve. And that comes from first listening to what they believe the problem is.

It feels very weird for me to be talking about this, because I definitely identify more to the conservative side of the spectrum. But here I am.

 

[deleted480308]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive I think what you are asking for has a lot more to do with empathy and counseling technique. As physicians, I don't think that we receive enough training on how to actually talk with patients in an empathetic way. A lot of the problems our patients face are things that we can learn about easily if we just learned how to listen first. For example, a black woman coming in complaining of pain feels like her doctor isn't adequately helping her control it. But if the doctor took the time to actually listen to her concerns rather than assume he knew the answer the problem may have been solved before it became a problem. I can't say with certainty that every single problem regarding race, gender identity, or any other issue can be boiled down to just conversation and listening, but I do get the very strong impression that we can solve many of these problems by becoming better listeners.

Things like systemic racism aren't overcome by talking about the overarching problems, they're overcome by people like us taking the time to treat everyone with a dignity and respect that they deserve. And that comes from first listening to what they believe the problem is.

It feels very weird for me to be talking about this, because I definitely identify more to the conservative side of the spectrum. But here I am.

You aren’t describing anything not “conservative” here

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive I think what you are asking for has a lot more to do with empathy and counseling technique. As physicians, I don't think that we receive enough training on how to actually talk with patients in an empathetic way. A lot of the problems our patients face are things that we can learn about easily if we just learned how to listen first. For example, a black woman coming in complaining of pain feels like her doctor isn't adequately helping her control it. But if the doctor took the time to actually listen to her concerns rather than assume he knew the answer the problem may have been solved before it became a problem. I can't say with certainty that every single problem regarding race, gender identity, or any other issue can be boiled down to just conversation and listening, but I do get the very strong impression that we can solve many of these problems by becoming better listeners.

Things like systemic racism aren't overcome by talking about the overarching problems, they're overcome by people like us taking the time to treat everyone with a dignity and respect that they deserve. And that comes from first listening to what they believe the problem is.

It feels very weird for me to be talking about this, because I definitely identify more to the conservative side of the spectrum. But here I am.

None of this is a conservative or progressive stance. Conservative mindsets don’t argue that we should ignore our patients. That’s part of being a good doctor. The conservative or progressive stance comes into the political aspects of these problems, and that’s what I’m saying should be kept out of medical school. It is nothing but propaganda that progressives want to listen to patients and conservatives don’t.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

If medical schools really wanted to provide education that would better patient's and physician lives they would teach the business aspects of medicine, quality improvement, and how to respect patients from all walks of livfe/beliefs/backgrounds. Instead we get progressive indoctrination of how being white means you owe those of color for years of oppression and other things the social justice crowd has deemed evil.
I think we can all argree that those on the fridge of both sides are usually somewhat psychotic, but at this moment and time those on the left fringe are in lead positions at universities pushing this agenda on those who can have significant downstream effects during his or her career.
Medical school should be about treating patients the best you possibly can, marginalizing certain races that have not been deemed "minority" in mandatory lectures written and spoken by lunatic leftist maniacs is not something a physician in training should have to sit through.

Feel free to call me all of the bad things SJW call those who do not absolutely 100% agree on social media, smear my name, ride your high horse, and hold your next pointless club meeting demeaning those who are not as "woke" as you. The rest of us sane people honestly do not care.

Pushing Wokeness on people without his or her consent is the same as religion used to do in the Dark ages. Just please don't.