Social Justice in Medicine

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Do you have a citation for that, because this is news to me?

if we assume that's true, I'm pretty sure that means that it's not the healthcare system being racist but rather something specific to our culture.

interestingly, we see a fairly large difference in mortality between black and white women in the UK as well. so whatever specific factors are causing this do not seem to be related to availability of healthcare.

It's interesting actually. In E&W, the infant mortality rate in Black Caribbeans has dramatically dropped in the last 10 years. Black African as decreased a little, but remains at the top along with Pakistani, while Whites remain the lowest.

Also, mortality was related mostly to immaturity causes in Blacks.

When you look at SES, the bottom 10% has a significantly higher mortality rate than the top 10%, though the gap is smaller now than in 2010.

Similarly, the mortality rate for manual jobs in the parents is much higher than other types.

And looking at the demographics, Blacks are disproportionately represented in the "long-term unemployed or never worked" category based on their representation in the population. They also make up the lowest percentage of supervisory or managerial positions.

Sources:

Child and infant mortality in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Socioeconomic status

--

So it is interesting in that even in the UK, Blacks have one of the highest infant mortality rates despite there being a national health service. However, SES does seem to still play a role, since Blacks are more likely to fall into the lower SES groups, and that group has a much higher infant mortality rate.

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[deleted804295]

You might want to avoid labeling anyone who disagrees with you as racist. Not wanting to be indoctrinated in med school doesn’t make you racist. I could just as easily say I don’t want you near patients because your intolerance of differing beliefs makes me worry that someone with a different worldview might get inferior care.

Did you really just compare race to political beliefs?

 

[deleted804295]

call it w/e u want if u don’t like the word race

point is that there are relatively large groups of people from different evolutionary/ancestral lineages around earth who differ most obviously on skin pigmentation and less obviously on a smattering of other traits, possibly things (that some research suggests, but not all) like IQ, build, musculature, disease frequencies, etc

if millions of years of evolution is a social construct to you, open up ur high school bio textbook lol

Did you really just say there are differences in IQ based on race????

Wooooow.

 

[deleted804295]

Yeah, relatively new. But that was still 14 years ago. And honestly, if it involved a different procedure besides just being part of the newborn screening, given the extremely low chance my white kids would have it, I probably would have passed.

I'm soooo glad that everyone is tested now.

 

[deleted804295]

Im currently caring for 3 black women on my inpatient service. 1 is recently post Partum. Assuming what you say is true, what should I do differently today when I’m caring for them? I’m about to go round on them now, so what should I do differently to ensure I’m providing quality care and not contributing to your statistic?

I realize those aren’t fair questions, but they represent the massive divide between what gets thrown at medical students on these issues and what physicians need in practice. When the SJWs can start answering the practical questions, I think more students and docs will be open to listening. Unfortunately it tends to be a lot of white guilt and performative self flagellation instead of anything useful.

It is not an unfair question and if you are asking in earnest I'll tell you what you need to do.

My mother is a minority immigrant woman. Her OB walked out on her when she was giving birth to my sister because of barriers in communication.

This is my own personal example of something systemic that needs to be changed. Physicians need to recognize that social factors affect minority women beyond just the healthcare facility.

The wonderful black women you're caring for need to have comprehensive checks. Ask them about their home lives. Don't just assume. If there are external stressors from work or home refer them to resources that can help them and help them set up appointments with these resources whether it be therapists or aides.

Black women with postpartum are a particularly fragile group. According to Kaiser Health, black women receive less treatment for postpartum Black Mothers Get Less Treatment For Postpartum Depression Than Other Moms

You can combat this by giving your patient personalized care rather than following a common treatment plan that might not benefit her.

Only through intentional decisions *with* your patients can you hope to see changes in their outcomes.

 

[deleted480308]

Did you really just say there are differences in IQ based on race????

Wooooow.

my understanding is there are also geographic variations but the finding of differences was one of the arguments for saying the tests are racially biased (which may or may not be true, I haven’t looked into it), but there was certainly a difference by race in past (haven’t looked recently) although it was changing over time the last I looked

It’a fair to say you think the tests suck, but there has been...a lot....of documented discussions about differences in score (which again, might means the test is bad)

 

[deleted480308]

It is not an unfair question and if you are asking in earnest I'll tell you what you need to do.

My mother is a minority immigrant woman. Her OB walked out on her when she was giving birth to my sister because of barriers in communication.

This is my own personal example of something systemic that needs to be changed. Physicians need to recognize that social factors affect minority women beyond just the healthcare facility.

The wonderful black women you're caring for need to have comprehensive checks. Ask them about their home lives. Don't just assume. If there are external stressors from work or home refer them to resources that can help them and help them set up appointments with these resources whether it be therapists or aides.

Black women with postpartum are a particularly fragile group. According to Kaiser Health, black women receive less treatment for postpartum Black Mothers Get Less Treatment For Postpartum Depression Than Other Moms

You can combat this by giving your patient personalized care rather than following a common treatment plan that might not benefit her.

Only through intentional decisions *with* your patients can you hope to see changes in their outcomes.

Current medical standards wouldn’t allow your mom to be treated that way (that sucks, sorry) because all hospitals have to make good faith efforts to communicate in the patient’s language. My hospital has more languages than I knew existed via electronic translating

 

[Neopolymath]

It is not an unfair question and if you are asking in earnest I'll tell you what you need to do.

My mother is a minority immigrant woman. Her OB walked out on her when she was giving birth to my sister because of barriers in communication.

This is my own personal example of something systemic that needs to be changed. Physicians need to recognize that social factors affect minority women beyond just the healthcare facility.

The wonderful black women you're caring for need to have comprehensive checks. Ask them about their home lives. Don't just assume. If there are external stressors from work or home refer them to resources that can help them and help them set up appointments with these resources whether it be therapists or aides.

Black women with postpartum are a particularly fragile group. According to Kaiser Health, black women receive less treatment for postpartum Black Mothers Get Less Treatment For Postpartum Depression Than Other Moms

You can combat this by giving your patient personalized care rather than following a common treatment plan that might not benefit her.

Only through intentional decisions *with* your patients can you hope to see changes in their outcomes.

I know you are an enthusiastic M1 but this is called being a good doctor and has nothing to do with this thread at hand. To fly off the handle and immediately claim racism is what people find so off putting and counter-productive to the supposed goal. Hanlon's Razor is super applicable here and your life will be a lot better if you consider it in your daily interactions with others.

 

[readmypostsMD]

my understanding is there are also geographic variations but the finding of differences was one of the arguments for saying the tests are racially biased (which may or may not be true, I haven’t looked into it), but there was certainly a difference by race in past (haven’t looked recently) although it was changing over time the last I looked

It’a fair to say you think the tests suck, but there has been...a lot....of documented discussions about differences in score (which again, might means the test is bad)

I mean why wouldn’t we expect phenotypic variation for a variety of traits between groups that mostly have offspring amongst themselves? Or is the one and *only* genetic difference pigmentation?

You can’t reasonably say that the single genetic difference between these groups is skin pigmentation. And why is it so preposterous to think that certain races could have allelic variation differentially conducive to neuroanatomical development/function (and subsequently a measure like IQ), especially in light of the fact that, I think, there is differences in skeletal muscular anatomy, disease frequency, etc. Nothing special about the brain that makes it immune to allelic, epigenetic, or otherwise genomic variation

I honestly don’t understand people who can’t see this as possible and might explain the average and consistent differences between a variety of test scores. Do you just emotionally block it out?

It’s just like genetics bro... ofc that in *no way shape or form* means Asians > Whites > Blacks.... your intrinsic value as a human being obviously has no tie whatsoever to such things

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's interesting actually. In E&W, the infant mortality rate in Black Caribbeans has dramatically dropped in the last 10 years. Black African as decreased a little, but remains at the top along with Pakistani, while Whites remain the lowest.

View attachment 317642

Also, mortality was related mostly to immaturity causes in Blacks.

View attachment 317643

When you look at SES, the bottom 10% has a significantly higher mortality rate than the top 10%, though the gap is smaller now than in 2010.

View attachment 317644

Similarly, the mortality rate for manual jobs in the parents is much higher than other types.

View attachment 317645

And looking at the demographics, Blacks are disproportionately represented in the "long-term unemployed or never worked" category based on their representation in the population. They also make up the lowest percentage of supervisory or managerial positions.

View attachment 317646

Sources:

Child and infant mortality in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Socioeconomic status

--

So it is interesting in that even in the UK, Blacks have one of the highest infant mortality rates despite there being a national health service. However, SES does seem to still play a role, since Blacks are more likely to fall into the lower SES groups, and that group has a much higher infant mortality rate.

That's the trick with maternal/infant mortality. There are an incredible number of confounding factors that to say its entirely based on X is almost always going to be wrong.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Did you really just compare race to political beliefs?

I did not.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I mean why wouldn’t we expect phenotypic variation for a variety of traits between groups that mostly have offspring amongst themselves? Or is the one and *only* genetic difference pigmentation?

You can’t reasonably say that the single genetic difference between these groups is skin pigmentation. And why is it so preposterous to think that certain races could have allelic variation differentially conducive to neuroanatomical development/function (and subsequently a measure like IQ), especially in light of the fact that, I think, there is differences in skeletal muscular anatomy, disease frequency, etc. Nothing special about the brain that makes it immune to allelic, epigenetic, or otherwise genomic variation

It’s just like genetics bro... ofc that *doesn’t* mean Asians > Whites > Blacks.... it’s literally just a phenotypic variation

There are so many factors that confound that data. IQ tests are highly geared toward a certain educational experience, which POC often don't get. When you go to crappy schools your whole life and barely learn anything, of course you are going to perform poorly on an IQ test. Despite what they are called, these tests don't actually test inborn, natural intelligence. The results are HIGHLY subject to influence by things like coaching, motivation, test taking skills, etc.

Additionally, when pre-K black children are raised in white homes, their pre-K scores rise dramatically. That alone should tell you that non-genetic factors heavily influence the score. Its validity as an intelligence test is poor, and claiming that an entire race of people are less intelligent is a racist statement. There is no data that actually supports that, and there is considerable overlap between blacks and whites.

That's the trick with maternal/infant mortality. There are an incredible number of confounding factors that to say its entirely based on X is almost always going to be wrong.

Yeah. People like to try to simplify things down into a single root cause, but life is often more complicated than that.

 

[Bones&Bourbon]

I know you are an enthusiastic M1 but this is called being a good doctor and has nothing to do with this thread at hand. To fly off the handle and immediately claim racism is what people find so off putting and counter-productive to the supposed goal. Hanlon's Razor is super applicable here and your life will be a lot better if you consider it in your daily interactions with others.

If everyone took this simple step in their daily lives when interacting with others, the world would be a much better (and significantly less verbally combative) place. Kudos to you for mentioning this.

 

[readmypostsMD]

There are so many factors that confound that data. IQ tests are highly geared toward a certain educational experience, which POC often don't get. When you go to crappy schools your whole life and barely learn anything, of course you are going to perform poorly on an IQ test. Despite what they are called, these tests don't actually test inborn, natural intelligence. The results are HIGHLY subject to influence by things like coaching, motivation, test taking skills, etc.

Additionally, when pre-K black children are raised in white homes, their pre-K scores rise dramatically. That alone should tell you that non-genetic factors heavily influence the score. Its validity as an intelligence test is poor.



Yeah. People like to try to simplify things down into a single root cause, but life is often more complicated than that.

I’d say that one has to consider the possibility that the circumstances you describe in your response could be a consequence of genetic differences... it’s a chicken or the egg argument... which came first

But life is complex, so its likely multivariate, also includes historical injustices/systemic racism

 

[rulerkk]

I’d say that one has to consider the possibility that the circumstances you describe in your response could be a consequence of genetic differences... it’s a chicken or the egg argument... which came first

But life is complex, so its likely multivariate, also includes historical injustices/systemic racism

This argument would have weight if there weren’t scores of African immigrants doing extremely well in academics.

 

[deleted804295]

Wooooow.

This thread has exposed the race realists.

Not surprised.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’d say that one has to consider the possibility that the circumstances you describe in your response could be a consequence of genetic differences... it’s a chicken or the egg argument... which came first

But life is complex, so its likely multivariate, also includes historical injustices/systemic racism

It's not really a chicken and egg argument. If pre-education black children on average do better on IQ tests when raised in white homes than pre-education black children raised in black homes, it clearly is not genetic (at least mostly). There is likely a genetic component to intelligence, but given how susceptible the IQ test is to outside factors, I would bet a lot of money that the genetics involved in intelligence play a small role there.

 

[blockrudder1]

I feel like OPs original opinion that started this thread has been distorted.

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

Would anyone disagree that these discussions shouldn't be included in medical education, period? Just like we are freely discussing now, there are multiple points of view that offer an opportunity to learn. Saying they shouldn't be included period is censorship. Saying they could be included, but not mandatory, is guaranteeing a biased group - as only those who already find value in these topics will attend. Why not make them mandatory to ensure that Ron Swanson will join in, contribute, and enlighten us?

Does anyone think that the substance/details of these discussions should be presented through a specific point of view? No, thats the problem with mainstream news.

This word "indoctrination" keeps coming up. Definition: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. While I agree that there is some degree of bias when presenting any information, are medical students not capable of recognizing any "agenda" or bias during these discussions? How will a mandatory small group on "climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria" brainwash medical students? I'll admit, I didn't do as well as I would have liked to on CARS, but I'm not likely to be indoctrinated if Jordan Peterson was running these sessions.

tl;dr, why not have these discussions? Are they so low-yield that they don't merit any mandatory introduction while we learn dated medical minutiae that even a practicing specialist may not need apply? I question the downside to incorporating these topics.

Analogy: It's like watching mainstream news for your main source of information. You can simply change the channel to avoid those perspectives you disagree with, without having to discuss them critically. Then instead discussing them at length on SDN.

 

[deleted804295]

Wikipedia on race realism/ scientific racism:

Many individuals here are upset at my usage of racist as if it's the worst word in the world to use towards white people. If you don't want to be a racist, then change it. This isn't the 1980s. Racism isn't just overt. If you're a race realist you're a racist. Period. If you don't want to be considered a racist then stop being one.

I feel uncomfortable with anyone who is a race realist being a physician. Race realism and the implicit biases associated with it kills patients.

 

[Neopolymath]

Wooooow.

This thread has exposed the race realists.

Not surprised.

I have made no statements addressing my opinion of race in this thread. It's absurd to sit here and listen to you hurl garbage accusations. It's clear you are letting emotion cloud your ability to communicate in this thread. I'm not particularly surprised by that but I do encourage you to use the quote feature of the website instead of saying things like a bunch of people in the thread are racist.

If you want to call someone a racist or whatever then quote what they said.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread has come to its (apparently) inevitable end.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Edit: to be clear, I posted this before the actual thread was locked. I did not use any admin abilities to respond to a locked thread.

Wikipedia on race realism/ scientific racism:View attachment 317647

Many individuals here are upset at my usage of racist as if it's the worst word in the world to use towards white people. If you don't want to be a racist, then change it. This isn't the 1980s. Racism isn't just overt. If you're a race realist you're a racist. Period. If you don't want to be considered a racist then stop being one.

I feel uncomfortable with anyone who is a race realist being a physician. Race realism and the implicit biases associated with it kills patients.

So there are a lot of problems with your point of view.

First, you are implying that anyone who claims there are differences between races with regard to disease prevalence falls into the category of race realists and that this viewpoint is incorrect. As many people have pointed out, there are a significant number of diseases that have drastically different prevalences between different races. So the idea that different races experience different diseases at different rates or even with different presentations is not incorrect. In fact, to ignore this would be to harm your patients. Blacks don't experience MIs the same way that white men do. Women don't experience them the same. Blacks have a much higher risk of SCA and colorectal cancer. Ashkenazi Jews have a much higher risk of colorectal and prostate cancer as well as many newborn diseases. There are a number of examples. Ignoring these differences will harm your patients.

Along with that, acknowledging the fact that different races have different disease prevalences is not racist, because it is not assigning superiority or inferiority to any specific race based on this information, and it is epidemiologically accurate. It also is not necessarily saying that blacks and whites are fundamentally different, it's just saying that there are differences in disease prevalence for reasons we sometimes understand and sometimes don't. That's not the same thing.

Second, you are assuming that someone who acknowledges the above will not provide equal care as someone who denies the above. This, I actually agree with, although it isn't the way you assume. Someone who denies that different races experience illness differently will harm their patients, and so in that way the quality of care will be different.

And finally, you are literally just "disliking" anyone who disagrees with you and saying they're racist and will kill patients. That is extreme hyperbole and a huge leap in logic. Someone who is literally saying that blacks are less intelligent than whites or that blacks don't feel as much pain as whites so they should get less pain meds is saying something racist, and they need to be educated. Someone saying that black people are significantly more likely to have colorectal cancer, so they should be screened more carefully and counseled on ways to mitigate that risk is not racist. They are correct and providing appropriate care to their patient.

I personally would not want a doctor who is incapable or unwilling to recognize the unique screening needs my family and I have because we are Ashkenazi.

 

[GoSpursGo]

This thread was closed while the moderator staff discussed the numerous reports that it has generated over the past several days. While the thread actually remained mostly civil and was a productive exchange of ideas, at this point it seems to be degenerating into an emotional argument. I also think that most of the productive discussion has been had, good points have been made on all sides, and it probably doesn't have anywhere else to go.

So at this point, we will leave this thread closed.

 

[GoSpursGo]

After receiving feedback and further discussion, we've decided to re-open the thread. As I said previously, most of these 8 pages have actually been refreshingly civil, and I hope it can remain that way.

 

[radsisrad]

Wooooow.

This thread has exposed the race realists.

Not surprised.

*CLUTCHES PEARLS*

 

[Steve_Zissou]

*CLUTCHES PEARLS*

I would say the number of true “race realists” in this thread are pretty small. @Sunbodi seems very quick to call people racist.

Racist should be a term reserved for people who are actually so, if not then it begins to lose its meaning. Don’t wield it like a club to clobber anyone that may disagree with you.

 

[radsisrad]

I would say the number of true “race realists” in this thread are pretty small. @Sunbodi seems very quick to call people racist.

Racist should be a term reserved for people who are actually so, if not then it begins to lose its meaning. Don’t wield it like a club to clobber anyone that may disagree with you.

Too late. The Left's new mantra is essentially that all white people are racist. At a certain point, it's fair to conclude that everything about the modern Left is FUBAR.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I would say the number of true “race realists” in this thread are pretty small. @Sunbodi seems very quick to call people racist.

Racist should be a term reserved for people who are actually so, if not then it begins to lose its meaning. Don’t wield it like a club to clobber anyone that may disagree with you.

That sounds like something a racist would say

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

In line with what GSG said, this thread has been surprisingly civil. Let’s keep it that way.

Personal attacks of any kind, calling people racist because they disagree with you, saying anything racist at all, and generally being a troll will result in action. This has been a civil and interesting. Let’s not ruin it.

 

[Ghee_Buttersnaps]

I would say the number of true “race realists” in this thread are pretty small. @Sunbodi seems very quick to call people racist.

Somebody advocated for reading Charles Murray's "The Bell Curve" to "instill some realism into how effective social interventions are" in this thread and nobody called them out on it. I'd say pseudoscientific race realism has been pretty endemic here.

 

[Neopolymath]

Somebody advocated for reading Charles Murray's "The Bell Curve" to "instill some realism into how effective social interventions are" in this thread and nobody called them out on it. I'd say pseudoscientific race realism has been pretty endemic here.

This is an interesting book that can teach people a lot of things, although most aren't what the author intended as clearly some of the content is purely insane lol. The lessons don't even have to be about race.

 

[dr_kateb]

As an FP I've always thought it's odd just how left leaning academic family medicine is given how conservative we are on average as a specialty.

Physicians in these 14 specialties more likely to vote Republican

While physicians are generally split 50/50 between the Democrat and Republican parties, partisanship is less evenly divided when looking at individual specialties. Data compiled by Yale researchers indicate some specialties lean heavily Democratic while others lean heavily Republican, reports...

www.beckershospitalreview.com

He’s also Canadian so which might contribute.
I’m aware of that link - I used it in this post actually

Social Justice in Medicine

being told you now have tk want govt to buy them is indoctrination Just curious, why is this your go-to example? Are you against Medicare Part D? I don't believe anyone who blanketly says 'the government' is the source (or solutions) of all of our problems deserves to be listened to. However...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Somebody advocated for reading Charles Murray's "The Bell Curve" to "instill some realism into how effective social interventions are" in this thread and nobody called them out on it. I'd say pseudoscientific race realism has been pretty endemic here.

I think that person is post-held so I'd say they got called out on it pretty hard.

Speaking personally, I don't engage people who I think have little chance of changing their views on a topic like this.

 

[TwoHighways]

I actually listened to Sam Harris discuss the book in great detail with the Charles Murray as I was curious about the book after reading a synopsis. I didn’t find anything remotely racist about it. If someone has a rebuttal to the research that went into the book and how it’s pseudoscientific, please enlighten us. If Sam Harris is a racist for having an honest discussion about the book, we’ve lowered the bar to the point where being a “racist” has lost its meaning.

I don’t know what the implications are for us as a society if the thesis is true. Charles Murray made it entirely clear that there is likely an environmental component just as there is a genetic component to intelligence. If you control for environmental factors though, some people are going to be smarter than others. There are differences between ethnicities in lots of phenotypic traits. There are plenty of stupid people of all colors. There are plenty of smart people of all colors and there’s lots of overlap in the distributions. We have no control over what traits we inherit from our parents. We ought to do our best to give our brightest minds every opportunity to thrive in this world that we may all reap the benefits of their successes.

 

[sloh]

I actually listened to Sam Harris discuss the book in great detail with the Charles Murray as I was curious about the book after reading a synopsis. I didn’t find anything remotely racist about it. If someone has a rebuttal to the research that went into the book and how it’s pseudoscientific, please enlighten us. If Sam Harris is a racist for having an honest discussion about the book, we’ve lowered the bar to the point where being a “racist” has lost its meaning.

The book was also largely about class, not race. Even in the chapter on crime, Murray makes his point with just data on whites.

 

[Ghee_Buttersnaps]

I actually listened to Sam Harris discuss the book in great detail with the Charles Murray as I was curious about the book after reading a synopsis. I didn’t find anything remotely racist about it. If someone has a rebuttal to the research that went into the book and how it’s pseudoscientific, please enlighten us.

Look I'm going to assume you're operating in good faith here. I get that this video is very long and I won't blame you if don't watch the whole thing but please give it a shot. There are some deeply unscientific ideas about race and intelligence that have been perpetuated by that book. I don't even think Murray is a "racist" per se, but there are some severe issues with his methodology that he feels the need to continually defend.

 

[TwoHighways]

Look I'm going to assume you're operating in good faith here. I get that this video is very long and I won't blame you if don't watch the whole thing but please give it a shot. There are some deeply unscientific ideas about race and intelligence that have been perpetuated by that book. I don't even think Murray is a "racist" per se, but there are some severe issues with his methodology that he feels the need to continually defend.

Fair enough. I’ll give it a listen tonight.

 

[Mass Effect]

Too late. The Left's new mantra is essentially that all white people are racist. At a certain point, it's fair to conclude that everything about the modern Left is FUBAR.

Hold up, you want to lecture others on not painting everyone with the racist brush just because they disagree yet you do the exact same thing here?

 

[Neopolymath]

I urge anyone who wants to post in outrage, tweet, or virtue signal to expend energy with material results. If your legit intention is to actually help people then this should be agreeable. I don't think it is for a lot of people online, particularly twitter, though. When someone says we should talk about XYZ in school (the purpose of this thread was not race originally) I always think about what actionable items that would create if I'm going to spend 2 hours away from my family to either listen to an echo chamber I agree with or listen to someone yell at me about something that I formulated my opinion on but can't do anything about. I went to medical school to become a doctor. This stuff belongs in college for the most part.

It was mentioned several times earlier in the thread by, I think, Operaman that so much of this stuff is kind of meaningless from a productivity standpoint so it shouldn't be included as it's really about blowing off steam in a lecture hall for frustrated people. I don't mean to be crude but what is learning about microaggressions in a mandatory lecture (instead of googling it) going to do? Make me tell the nurse to push epi harder during a code on a black person??? The last poster who tried to answer Operaman's question regarding this detail essentially came up with a long post that could be summarized by "be a good doctor" not some tool or new thing to do that has anything to do with being Woke. There seems to be some false advertisement with young people on things that make a person a woke doctor instead of just a good doctor. It's honestly just appropriation to make it seem more important. A lot of the anecdotes I read online are bad care by potentially mediocre doctor not bad care because someone isn't hip with Twitter.

The pontificating is tiresome to many of us, even those of us who largely agree politically, and it truly expends so much wasted energy by an individual. I really do think people would feel better if they would just go do something clearly constructive with their time. If you are a poor student, that might be volunteering at youth centers or whatever. When I got my year end bonuses, I always gave a huge chunk of that to something like the ACLU. I don't really care I guess. It's supposedly a free country still. I just think life would be a lot healthier for everyone if we focused the little extra energy we have after work and family time to do something that impacts someone beyond getting retweets. I don't care how passionate you are about XYZ mandatory topic. That time could have been spent building a damn house for habitat for humanity or doing free physicals at the local clinc (crazy to mention doing our actual job to help people, I know...) instead of holding me hostage for no justification.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Look I'm going to assume you're operating in good faith here. I get that this video is very long and I won't blame you if don't watch the whole thing but please give it a shot. There are some deeply unscientific ideas about race and intelligence that have been perpetuated by that book. I don't even think Murray is a "racist" per se, but there are some severe issues with his methodology that he feels the need to continually defend.

So is it that racists have used Murray's book to promote their ideas or that Murray has some racist ideas in the book?

Honestly asking as I've never read it.

 

[TwoHighways]

I urge anyone who wants to post in outrage, tweet, or virtue signal to expend energy with material results. If your legit intention is to actually help people then this should be agreeable. I don't think it is for a lot of people online, particularly twitter, though. When someone says we should talk about XYZ in school (the purpose of this thread was not race originally) I always think about what actionable items that would create if I'm going to spend 2 hours away from my family to either listen to an echo chamber I agree with or listen to someone yell at me about something that I formulated my opinion on but can't do anything about. I went to medical school to become a doctor. This stuff belongs in college for the most part.

It was mentioned several times earlier in the thread by, I think, Operaman that so much of this stuff is kind of meaningless from a productivity standpoint so it shouldn't be included as it's blowing off steam in a lecture hall. I don't mean to be crude but is learning about microaggressions in a mandatory lecture (instead of googling it) going to do? Make me tell the nurse to push epi harder during a code on a black person??? The last poster who tried to answer Operaman's question regarding this detail essentially came up with a long post that could be summarized by "be a good doctor" not some tool or new thing to do that has anything to do with being Woke. There seems to be some false advertisement with young people on things that make a person a woke doctor instead of just a good doctor. It's honestly just appropriation to make it seem more important. A lot of the anecdotes I read online are bad care by potentially mediocre doctor not bad care because someone isn't hip with Twitter.

The pontificating is tiresome to many of us, even people who agree politically, but it truly expends so much wasted energy by an individual. I really do think people would feel better if they would just go do something clearly constructive with their time. If you are a poor student, that might be volunteering at youth centers or whatever. When I got my year end bonuses, I always gave a huge chunk of that to something like the ACLU. I don't really care I guess. It's supposedly a free country still. I just think life would be a lot healthier for everyone if we focused the little extra energy we have after work and family time to do something that impacts someone beyond getting retweets. I don't care how passionate you are about XYZ mandatory topic. That time could have been spent building a damn house for habitat for humanity or doing free physicals at the local clinc (crazy to mention doing our actual job to help people, I know...) instead of holding me hostage for no justification.

Whether you’re religious or not, Matthew chapter 6 often comes to mind when I read a virtue signalling social media post.

 

[Neopolymath]

Whether you’re religious or not, Matthew chapter 6 often comes to mind when I read a virtue signalling social media post.

I personally enjoy being told that I'm a terrible person (by people who hold very similar beliefs) online and in person. It really hits home when I could have bought multiple cars with my donations and taken those hours doing useful things for people in need and actually spent them getting teary-eyed and yelling at people who potentially agree with you.

 

[Ghee_Buttersnaps]

So is it that racists have used Murray's book to promote their ideas or that Murray has some racist ideas in the book?

Honestly asking as I've never read it.

A lot of column A, a bit of column B. Having listened to a few of Murray's interviews I really don't think he meant to justify racist attitudes. It's more that the history of IQ testing is rooted in practices that intentionally disadvantaged certain ethnic groups. Like researchers in the 1930's using a knowledge-based test, administering it to West African copper miners and then using the results to conclude that Africans are inherently less intelligent.

 

[radsisrad]

Hold up, you want to lecture others on not painting everyone with the racist brush just because they disagree yet you do the exact same thing here?

Dude (or ma'am), take a look at school curricula or at what's happening on the streets or to the statues of this country. This isn't the work of right-wingers. When racially-oriented propaganda and violence are sanctioned and encouraged by mainstream Leftist institutions like politicians, universities, and woke corporations, yeah, I can damn well say that the Left is FUBAR.

In any event, this thread isn't likely to go anywhere, so I'll just reiterate my advice to the OP: keep your head down and focus on learning actual science (I believe there's still a smidge of that taught in medical school). The world needs sane doctors who don't, for example, violate all professional responsibility by participating in idiotic protests in the midst of a global pandemic from a novel virus. And, again, stay safe from the mob.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A lot of column A, a bit of column B. Having listened to a few of Murray's interviews I really don't think he meant to justify racist attitudes. It's more that the history of IQ testing is rooted in practices that intentionally disadvantaged certain ethnic groups. Like researchers in the 1930's using a knowledge-based test, administering it to West African copper miners and then using the results to conclude that Africans are inherently less intelligent.

Yeah it has been used in racist ways, but I think it actually disadvantages certain SES groups, and it’s just that certain ethnic groups are more likely to be part of those groups. Which may functionally be the same, but I think it’s an important distinction.

 

[deleted859689]

Opening this thread again made my day

 

[Goro]

I would say the number of true “race realists” in this thread are pretty small. @Sunbodi seems very quick to call people racist.

Racist should be a term reserved for people who are actually so, if not then it begins to lose its meaning. Don’t wield it like a club to clobber anyone that may disagree with you.

Ditto for "indoctrination" which has been used as a synonym in these pages for "stuff I don't want to learn".

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Ditto for "indoctrination" which has been used as a synonym in these pages for "stuff I don't want to learn".

Doesn't mean it can't mean both

 

[deleted804295]

Doesn't mean it can't mean both

You're actually using it incorrectly.

I'm not quick to throw out the term racist. I don't recall calling any individual person a racist I said race realists are racist and then quoted wikipedia.

 

[deleted804295]

Idc to continue this conversation tbh

It took a neo-conservative twist due to individuals who aren't even med students and I much prefer the more progressive feel of the med student and pre med forums.