Oh, no, that's not what I meant at all. I simply meant that it just isn't feasible in every single wolf game for a pack mate to never place a vote on another pack mate. It isn't a realistic goal.
Like who that plays regularly?
I agree with this.
For the record I think basics games are important.
This is also a really good point!
And this is one of the reasons I'm very excited to get to wolf again. I think in general I'm a much, much better villager now than I was in boWWling or LiterWWary, and I'm thrilled to see how that affects my next wolf game.
Yes, and I think what makes it seem like a popularity contest is players who have played for multiple years automatically have more experience honing their playstyle and making it really, really effective.
AGREE
I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
Would this not be relevant, though? Having mechanics that seem like they would be important but then they're just there... to be there? Does that not challenge expectations of games and mechanics as well?
Yeah, well, since everyone rands village about 80% of the time, it still behooves people to learn to correctly read the suckier players as you've pretty much made the case for calling them, here.
If that's your interpretation of what I said, then we're not going to be able to have a productive conversation about it.
That's what I'm saying, the crazy mechanics can challenge expectations in a way where people rely on them less.I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
Would this not be relevant, though? Having mechanics that seem like they would be important but then they're just there... to be there? Does that not challenge expectations of games and mechanics as well?
No, but I thought I would tell you your theory that what other players are complaining about would just be non-issue if they got better, how that could be taken.
Off the top of my head, from those that have played in the last fiscal year, Stagg, Chaos, April, Vis, mayo, Paws, Barks, genny +/- PSV (unsure if still relevant for the last as she hasn't wolfed in a while) have expressed comfort with deepwolfing.
I'd like to minus myself from this list, but still pending.
Well, that isn't what I said at all, so if people take it that way, that's on them.
mkg's in vet school now (though she still plays occasionally). jboo's a new doctor. cubs tends to get frustrated with this game after losing and needs to take site breaks sometimes.
With how well village has been playing this year I don't think it's accurate to suggest that people aren't trying to correctly read those who are often under suspicion or who don't have the means (which is frankly often a time issue) to get a strong village read out of the gate. If there were only 3 or 4 villagers every game who didn't get misyeeted, village would never win. Like, Zenge, samac, shorty, and AM are frequently night-kills anyway. Village still manages to win, and often with few or no misyeets lately. You mention cubs but I can remember only one game this year where he was misyeeted (well, technically mis-shot), same with mkg I think. I think there are a lot of active attempts to get reads on players who are more difficult to read for various reasons. It comes up every game.
Yes, no one has actually brought up how one player heavily sussed as a wolf, voting for a packmate, could be an example where bussing isn't about taking the bussed packmate down, and could be used to scare people off the yeet.
I think of the anti low-poster bias sort of like this:
I don't think shorty at all was talking about people who do get misyoten occasionally or frequently or laying down judgement for the way they play.
Honestly, your post really felt like justification for dismissing some people's feelings, so I thought I would call it out. I don't think your intention was to be hurtful, but I wanted you to consider how/why it could be hurtful. I didn't mince words about it to try to get you to understand how it could feel.
And in turn, the better you are at projecting villageyness, the more that becomes part of your meta to the extent that players unintentionally start coding you village as soon as you post. But that doesn't happen just 'cuz. The association has to be built up. And it could be broken down if the player stopped sounding so villagey. That's why it's a continuing skill.
I think that's part of it. Posting more also gives you more of a chance to form connections with other players. When you form connections, even if they aren't always super positive ones, it makes people think harder about voting for you. Even if you can't be around all the time, if you're contributing meaningful content when you are, you're more likely to get village read for effort.
I get what you're saying but I don't think the tendency of bloccing a key group is based on friendship. Consider: mkg and weagle are really good friends IRL, but they voted for each other this game (and were opposing affs). I really like stoat and fluff, but I think they're both inherently sus and I'm perfectly willing to vote them. Obviously I have a soft spot for True though, RIP that.
Add that Sporty and I are literally best friends and yet she wants me dead every game lol
I think the closest we came to this was Mountains, and the only reason that almost worked was because the living villagers were mostly just yelling at each other instead of yelling at the wolves.
Unless you live in the African savannas.I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
I'm saying that we have done that. I mean, maybe not me as much as I could, because I'm bad at the whole wolfhunting thing, but the evidence is there. If people are getting misyeeted less often that means the others are getting better at reading them. And I think that those who do get misyeeted game after game should take some responsibility for recognizing how their playstyle might be difficult to read and make adjustments, just as those responsible for misyeeting them should consider how they could try to read them better. I think there is evidence for both already occurring.
The only reason it's insulting, is to suggest that because you get village read because you're good at getting village read, is the implication that it makes invalid the feelings of people who feel it isn't merely that player's villagey-ness but also cliqueishness. And I don't see why both can't actually be true.
I don't think that's what shorty thinks or intends to communicate but I understand if that's how you feel. Will respond after work or maybe message you privately, since there are feelings here worth unpacking. On some level it seems like you dragged a whole separate argument in by coding the bussing discussion as a cloak for wider grievances you have.
It's at least proof that any bias that might exist is not actually contributing as much as you're trying to say it is, Cray. I don't see how you're missing how insulting it is to directly devalue the time and effort that people put into the game to get village read by saying it's just because of some clique behavior.
Hey, that's totally fair. I definitely don't mean to insult people who are just genuinely good. That's great. I don't mean to put down the fact that they're taking time and effort.
Speaking ~only for myself~, could you let me know (here or in messages) things that I could productively do to make you feel more like you're not being personally pushed out of a friendly bubble when I am playing? Because I do think your feelings are important
Honestly I feel the issue the least from many of the newer players, which is part of why I do feel like there is some bias or cliqueness or whatever happening. I don't feel like newer players are bowing to what I have to say, which isn't what I'm looking for, but I bring up to say that me feeling heard isn't about, OK then everyone does what I say/agrees/goes along with me. But I do feel like somehow it gets acknowledged in a productive way, like people can still go against you without one feeling dismissed. And I really appreciate you making this post response.
I don't really know how to reconcile the two thoughts tbh. I understand you feel you're not being heard, but I don't actually see how this was the case this game, except for when you literally weren't here. I had you in my village blocc until we reached a point where I needed to consider who in my village blocc didn't fit anymore because of mechanics. I am not trying to make a dig at you because I know **** happens and life gets busy, but consider how difficult it is to choose to vote for someone who is here and defending themselves vs someone who is not in a situation like that.
Here's the thing, is that often the coding for whether or not you seem village, partly seems to be, how much are you seen agreeing with or disagreeing with certain players. And that means you can't oppose them or push them. This can mean very frustrating wolf AND village losses.
I'm only familiar with one of the games you mentioned (10th anniversary of course), but I think it's rarely so cut and dry as to say this reason is concretely why village lost.
And that's just it. The presence of a "samac pfpp" just proves there is a bias. Many people mentioned it in 10th Ann. That the exact same point out of one person's mouth would be weighed differently depending on who it came from, early in the game when there are the least data points on anything and we were were voting a non-yeet, so something not very crucial. So in some ways, at that point in the game, there was really no good reason to listen to anything samac said more than anything mkg said. But people acknowledged out of the gate feeling differently about a comment depending on where you thought it came from rather than where it actually did.
Not gonna say there haven't been gains, like with cubs.
For me it's a number of things, really.
And you are also not acknowledging how much time and effort other people put in, and yet for reasons they cannot understand except for what I've said, they are still ignored or not heard.
You're right, but that's my point: we associate certain players with being very village because they have played very strong, pro-village games in the past and/or are some of the strongest village voices. This doesn't mean other players who don't have that sort of association are bad. But I think the point can be that sounding very village is part of some people's metas and is something they have been actively working to cultivate.
I'm struggling to understand who or what situations you are even referring to. That's why I am asking for specific examples.
The main issue is that if you have a group of people that never get *mis*yeeted specifically, than for some packs or players the only path to victory is to NK those players. Which given how bitterly they then complain about it, to the point of actually causing a lot of people a lot of distress wolfing, sucks a lot of fun out for both the killers and the frequently killed. Everyone should be on the table. Everyone should be up for discussion.
Again, you're talking about things many of us already do. Fluff had multiple people move off of her d1 because she was misyeeted early in the last game she played. Others were listed as not options for d1 yeet because they hadn't played in a while or were misvoted often. This also happens every game. I wish I hadn't moved to jboo, I really do.
Hey I would love it if people stopped sheeping my votes, particularly d1 (except for when I really really want them to). I don't really know what you expect me to do about it though, in a practical sense.
