When I think about the sheer quantity of students in my program who have NEVER held a job, EVER....it would not surprise me to hear that they need this info. Besides the ones who have never received a paycheck, EVER, there's even more who have done jobs like doing research for professors - but never anything professional or even anything where you're required to be somewhere 8-5. It's almost disgusting.
Preceptors: What do you dislike about your students?
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When I think about the sheer quantity of students in my program who have NEVER held a job, EVER....it would not surprise me to hear that they need this info. Besides the ones who have never received a paycheck, EVER, there's even more who have done jobs like doing research for professors - but never anything professional or even anything where you're required to be somewhere 8-5. It's almost disgusting.
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That's good to know, but I am shocked that you can get that far without knowing those things. I can't imagine. I will take that into consideration, but I would think by APPE, you should know those things. Maybe not for IPPE?
Personally, I think you have serious issues if you've never held a real job by the time you're a P4. But apparently my school doesn't agree, because they regularly select students who have not.
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Welcome to the world of clinical douchery and constant putdowns. I do that occasionally to students just to be a smart ass (but play it serious to watch the reaction), but I definitely feel for the students who have to listen to that crap from the other pharmacists daily for 4-6 weeks. I love watching some poor P4 who is new to all this stuff get grilled like they're in a ****ing senate hearing when presenting a case...- Joined
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This kind of makes me paranoid that I will doing something wrong when I get to that level, I'm only first year in a six year program, but I'm scared I won't know the material by that stage and I'll forget everything I learned.
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The last two posts shows exactly what's wrong with the entire process.
Sadists and narcissists overseeing frightened subservients that have developed an anxiety disorder over the last 3 years due to having to exist in an environment of "don't eff up or you're $100k in debt with nothing to show for it."
Sadists and narcissists overseeing frightened subservients that have developed an anxiety disorder over the last 3 years due to having to exist in an environment of "don't eff up or you're $100k in debt with nothing to show for it."
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I was just talking to a classmate and was stunned to learn he has never had a job, ever. How? Why?
I still struggle with the humor thing, that is great advice for those of us who think everyone should have the same sense of humor we do.
I still struggle with the humor thing, that is great advice for those of us who think everyone should have the same sense of humor we do.
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A number of comments are on the displeasure of students wanting to leave early, while I don't expect to be out the door right when my rotation ends at 5:00, I don't think consistently holding students 1-2 hours past an 8 hour day as outlined in our school syllabus is always fair to the students. This of course is contingent upon completing the work outlined by the preceptor, and by all means give work for students to complete/read/evaluate later that evening at home. I'm all for a good learning experience and occasionally unique situations pop up that you normally wouldn't see and present a good learning opportunity, in such instances I'm all for an extended day.
In terms of intern hours, my school would only sign off on 40/week as that was expected to be the amount of time spent at rotation, I had to fill out second form and report the additional time spent at this rotation as volunteer hours as my school would not aknowledge them as being part of my rotation.
In terms of intern hours, my school would only sign off on 40/week as that was expected to be the amount of time spent at rotation, I had to fill out second form and report the additional time spent at this rotation as volunteer hours as my school would not aknowledge them as being part of my rotation.
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It's all a matter of what type of rotation you're on really. If you're in a clinically facing roll (hospital, true clinic setting, etc) or a management setting life doesn't stop at 5pm. Your job as a student is to understand and learn about what (hypothetically) my job is, not what you'd like it to be.
That said keeping students late to do bs work is just that, bs. But report that to the school, your job is to learn to be a pharmacist not to stock shelves and ring people up.
That said keeping students late to do bs work is just that, bs. But report that to the school, your job is to learn to be a pharmacist not to stock shelves and ring people up.
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This makes me a sad panda.
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Yep, I do this quite often. And I've scored a couple of times too.
One of my preceptors was an older Indian lady. She was trying to set me up with her daughter. She invited me for dinner at their house, I went. After dinner, she was like, "you two go to a movie or something". Her daughter was pretty, but kinda an airhead. I was nice about it until after all evaluations were completed for the rotation, then I went forward with breaking up.
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Let me make you a crying panda. I never held a paying job more than 3 months until now.
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LOL...I don't understand why people are so surprise that some people didn't hold a job till later in life. Some people value education. They aren't going to force their young children to start working at 14, 15, or 16 etc. Those children should be doing school related stuff, playing the piano, taking tennis lessons, ballet etc. Why would you want such young people working? I think that's called child abuse. I would rather them do school related activities, go to summer camp, take lessons, or just read etc. than work at McDonalds for $8/hr.
Once you graduate from college then go find a job. No need to do it when you are still in school and should be studying or taking lessons or doing school related stuff. SCHOOL IS IMPORTANT and deserve one's FULL ATTENTION.
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LOL...I don't understand why people are so surprise that some people didn't hold a job till later in life. Some people value education. They aren't going to force their young children to start working at 14, 15, or 16 etc. Those children should be doing school related stuff, playing the piano, taking tennis lessons, ballet etc. Why would you want such young people working? I think that's called child abuse. I would rather them do school related activities, go to summer camp, take lessons, or just read etc. than work at McDonalds for $8/hr.
Once you graduate from college then go find a job. No need to do it when you are still in school and should be studying or taking lessons or doing school related stuff. SCHOOL IS IMPORTANT and deserve one's FULL ATTENTION.
Good lord. Sometimes I wonder if you say stuff just to sound like an idiot. My parents are rolling in the cash, but I had a job at 16 and made my own money. I also made straight A's in school. Maybe you act how you act because no one made you stand on your own two feet and be a big kid. One of these days reality is going to come around and bi*ch slap you upside your head.
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You are the IDIOT if you think making your kids work at McDonalds is more beneficial than having them take lessons like tennis, ballet, piano, etc. It has nothing to do with money. I think those lessons are more important to learn than flipping burgers. I think it would be more beneficial to learn those lessons, take summer camp or just do summer reading. That is gives more benefit than flipping burgers. You are the idiot if you don't understand that.
So your reality is flipping burgers is superior than learning new things? OMG
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LOL...I don't understand why people are so surprise that some people didn't hold a job till later in life. Some people value education. They aren't going to force their young children to start working at 14, 15, or 16 etc. Those children should be doing school related stuff, playing the piano, taking tennis lessons, ballet etc. Why would you want such young people working? I think that's called child abuse. I would rather them do school related activities, go to summer camp, take lessons, or just read etc. than work at McDonalds for $8/hr.
Once you graduate from college then go find a job. No need to do it when you are still in school and should be studying or taking lessons or doing school related stuff. SCHOOL IS IMPORTANT and deserve one's FULL ATTENTION.
Not all of us are made out of money. We actually think work is good lol
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You are the IDIOT if you think making your kids work at McDonalds is more beneficial than having them take lessons like tennis, ballet, piano, etc. It has nothing to do with money. I think those lessons are more important to learn than flipping burgers. I think it would be more beneficial to learn those lessons, take summer camp or just do summer reading. That is gives more benefit than flipping burgers. You are the idiot if you don't understand that.
So your reality is flipping burgers is superior than learning new things? OMG
Since you have probably never worked a day in your life, I will give you a little news flash. There are other jobs besides working at McDonalds.
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You are the IDIOT if you think making your kids work at McDonalds is more beneficial than having them take lessons like tennis, ballet, piano, etc. It has nothing to do with money. I think those lessons are more important to learn than flipping burgers. I think it would be more beneficial to learn those lessons, take summer camp or just do summer reading. That is gives more benefit than flipping burgers. You are the idiot if you don't understand that.
So your reality is flipping burgers is superior than learning new things? OMG
I don't think it's the flipping burgers part that people respect. Learning how to interact with real people from various backgrounds, and earning our own money, are the things people respect, in my opinion.
It's hard to say you truly empathise with someone if you've managed to avoid leaving your comfort zone your whole life.
Also, let's keep the discussion civil please.
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Lol, I tried. I had knee surgery yesterday, so my tolerance is a little low. I'll play nice.
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I can't think of any jobs a 14 or 16 yo can qualify to do except for fast food, restaurants, grocery stores, the mall or retail. Or working for your parents which is what I did.
Of course there are exceptions, if for example a child always had a strong passion for pharmacy and wanted to work as a pharmacy tech at 16 b/c he wants to be a pharmacist when he grows up. That's very beneficial. Or if a child already has a strong passion for a career field and is able to get an early start on that field that is always a huge benefit.
Other than that taking lessons on new things would be most beneficial because learning new things is important. You have the rest of your life to work. I don't see how starting to work after you finish college is a bad thing. You learn from childhood to college years and work afterwards.
Of course there are exceptions, if for example a child always had a strong passion for pharmacy and wanted to work as a pharmacy tech at 16 b/c he wants to be a pharmacist when he grows up. That's very beneficial. Or if a child already has a strong passion for a career field and is able to get an early start on that field that is always a huge benefit.
Other than that taking lessons on new things would be most beneficial because learning new things is important. You have the rest of your life to work. I don't see how starting to work after you finish college is a bad thing. You learn from childhood to college years and work afterwards.
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I know 12 year olds who work newspaper routes. I know plenty of people who were camp counselors at 16, as well as people who did filing work for politicians running for office. Honestly, I have more respect for the kids I knew in high school who made thousands every month selling weed, cocaine, and heroin than the kids in pharmacy school who never had a job. (I went to high school in the same neighborhood where 50-Cent, Ja Rule, and other South Side Jamaica rappers grew up in.)
I was custom building/repairing computers for people when I was 16 and setting up computer networks.
I do find it pretty odd that there are pharmacy students who never set food inside a pharmacy until their rotations. If it was a requirement that people work at a pharmacy for X # of hours prior to starting pharmacy school, then perhaps they can get rid of those stupid ass IPPEs.
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I babysat until I was 16, then I worked fast food until I got a job in a pharmacy. I took piano lessons, was in band, choir, sports, mock trial, math league (nerd), involved in my church, had a social life and graduated 3rd in my class. I learned a lot from having a job in high school that had nothing to do with the actual job. Every single one of my friends had jobs and we were all successful in school and now in our careers.
Child abuse, pfft, SHC. You say such "funny" things. And approximately NO ONE on here is surprised you haven't held a job until now. I want to be a fly on the wall when you graduate and start working.
Child abuse, pfft, SHC. You say such "funny" things. And approximately NO ONE on here is surprised you haven't held a job until now. I want to be a fly on the wall when you graduate and start working.
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I dislike IPPEs as well, but sometimes people just cannot find jobs. And TBH I don't see a problem with people not working in a pharmacy until rotations as long as they're doing something useful with their time. I mean pharmacy is one of the few professions where it's expected for you to work in it before you go on rotations or graduate. This is not expected of medicine, PT, law, etc... and I think enough is learned in class and on rotations to graduate a fairly functional pharmacist. People could do research, teach, etc. instead of pharmacy work and it may still help their career. Working in a pharmacy is a good idea so one knows what kind of work they would like to pursue and what kind of rotations to schedule, but I don't think it should be required of everyone.
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The reason IPPEs were added was because preceptors were complaining that students didn't know enough about day to day pharmacy operations come forth year. Medical students get two years of clinicals, do USMLE, and do a residency. I think it's a reasonable expectation that students get exposure prior to APPE.
I think experience is important whether it comes from IPPE or an internship. You are right that it's hard to find internships, though. This is why I think IPPE can be useful if implemented correctly. I think they could definitely use some work.
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I'm sort of ok with kids not working in high school, depending on what they are involved in. And where they live. It's hard for high school kids to get jobs in my city because this is such a huge college town and the older kids take all the jobs.
That said, I worked in high school. I was a teacher's assistant in math extended school services. I was a private tutor. I babysat. I was also captain of the academic team and on the math team. And very involved in my church and religious activities. I was president of the Student Bank and was in involved in other things I've probably forgotten. I had no idea I was being abused!!!
But not working during college is ridiculous. It should be mandatory. There's no substitute for life experience.
That said, I worked in high school. I was a teacher's assistant in math extended school services. I was a private tutor. I babysat. I was also captain of the academic team and on the math team.
And very involved in my church and religious activities. I was president of the Student Bank and was in involved in other things I've probably forgotten. I had no idea I was being abused!!! But not working during college is ridiculous. It should be mandatory. There's no substitute for life experience.
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What they could do is add some sort of waiver for IPPEs by having your PIC sign off on it.
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Back to the original question....
I actually had a student the other day pull a "no call no show". They showed up 4.5 hours late for the rotation because they didn't feel well. I asked why they didn't call and they said they couldn't find the number. No joke. And this person is 29 years old. *head->desk* Part of being on a rotation is to learn how to act in a professional aka "real world" environment.
Do not whine about the hours - it makes you look very very bad especially if you actually want a job at the place you are working - pharmacy is a small world so do NOT burn bridges
About the whole guessing thing - NEVER guess on rounds but ask your preceptor if they want you to guess when you are just one-on-one with them
Call if you are going to be late - this is the real world
I actually had a student the other day pull a "no call no show". They showed up 4.5 hours late for the rotation because they didn't feel well. I asked why they didn't call and they said they couldn't find the number. No joke. And this person is 29 years old. *head->desk* Part of being on a rotation is to learn how to act in a professional aka "real world" environment.
Do not whine about the hours - it makes you look very very bad especially if you actually want a job at the place you are working - pharmacy is a small world so do NOT burn bridges
About the whole guessing thing - NEVER guess on rounds but ask your preceptor if they want you to guess when you are just one-on-one with them
Call if you are going to be late - this is the real world
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E-mail?
Not that it's too hard to find a phone number in this google era, but it seems like the student would have to have some sort of contact info for his/her own preceptor.
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Ah but then they wouldn't be able to charge tuition for it. I never had to pay extra tuition for IPPEs, but nowadays I hear it's becoming pretty standard, at least in private schools.
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Getting charged for IPPEs?!?! wtf?
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I thought everyone paid for IPPEs. Summer tuition or some such nonsense.
owlegrad
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IPPE counts as credit hours, right? And that is what colleges bill for.
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Yep, and many schools make students do it in the summer or winter break, so they can charge for extra credits during summer session or winter session.
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I don't know why them being in the summer means the school gets more money. Credits are credits, right?
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Ordinarily you wouldn't be taking summer classes though. Schools charge per semester, so with IPPE they can charge for the extra credits during summer session (or winter), just because the students are taking a class (IPPE) at the time. This is also the reason why some schools charge more for the P4 year (mine does this). Because there are rotations in the summer, the school charges for 10 extra credits during summer session.
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We have a "max" tuition for full time..so any credits beyond 12 and you don't get charged extra. The program fees are also the same regardless of credit hours. Since we take 17+ credits, IPPE is not extra even if we do it in the summer...they just count it as part of fall or spring tuition. I thought most schools do that but I guess I was wrong.
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We just have IPPE listed as a course, and we pay tuition accordingly.
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Anything beyond 12 doesn't get billed?!
Wowww... we definitely pay for every hour of our 18 hour couse load. 
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Anything beyond 12 doesn't get billed?!
Quite a few schools do this. OSU tuition max out at 10 credits, so it's to your advantage to take as many courses as you can handle. It's easy to complete a minor in business, etc and most of that credits also count towards pharm.D electives.
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IPPE are free. However, APPE are not!
The entire P4 year should be free. It cost the school NOTHING to set it up so why are we charged for something that the school got FOR FREE? Makes no sense to me.
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It costs the school money...
If you have a joint faculty it goes towards the salary, preceptor training development, communications to preceptors, printed materials, access to library materials off site, salary for experiential directors/secretaries, cost of keeping the electronic system to maintain rotation sites/evaluations...plus plenty of others I am not thinking of... are you really that clueless?
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No it does not. I am friends with one of my preceptors now. I set up 2 rotations to do with him. I ask him how much is my school paying your hospital to take me in as a student? He says nothing.The school isn't paying for these 2 rotations.
I also ask a few other preceptors and my college of pharmacy does NOT pay for the rotation sites set up for the students.
I realize some newly built private schools that are desperate for sites will pay for their rotations sites, but my school is over 100 years old and does not pay for their rotation sites. Therefore they are paying NOTHING for these rotations.
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Anything beyond 12 doesn't get billed?!
Yeah. full time status is 11K flat rate + program fees also flat rate. You can add classes on top of the regular ones and it's the same. That's how I'm taking all these PhD classes for free until I graduate and then I get carried by the program.
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This is such a ridiculous responsethat I don't even knowwhat to say. You missed the entire point.
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Did you read what I posted?....it has nothing to do with paying rotation sites. There are costs associated with maintaining rotations that have nothing to do with paying sites directly....
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While P4 year shouldn't be free, it shouldn't cost like $10K more than P1 year. My school is weird since it is a 2+2 school and we start APPE during P3 year. Some of the students in my class got the luck of the draw and had all 10 of their required rotations during their P3 year, giving them the entire P4 year off, except for the required Capstone project. They are paying 42K for their P4 year and just chilling because they have no rotations left to complete, and all they have to do is the Capstone project.
Ours is flat rate. We need to take 3 electives among p2 and p3, but you could take more if you wanted without extra charges. Not sure about taking classes outside of pharmacy though.
Sure there are some administrative costs, but does it cost as much (or even more) than P1-3 where you sit in the building all day and have lectures and exams? No way.
If you made the argument that the entire tuition cost is say, 80k, and they divided it evenly into 20k/yr x 4 rather than 25k + 25k + 25k + 5k, that would be fair. Maybe that's how it actually is planned, but it doesn't seem that's how they represent it.
When you start pharmacy school, you know it is four years and basically what those four years cost. You know you are going to do 10 or 11 rotation and pay for them. Do them. Do them with a smile on your face. Be nice. Try to learn something. Make some contacts.
You never know when you might need them for a Job!!
Pharmacy is a small world. No reason for either side teacher or student to treat the other unfairly. I am a student, but my father has precept in the past.
You never know when you might need them for a Job!!
Pharmacy is a small world. No reason for either side teacher or student to treat the other unfairly. I am a student, but my father has precept in the past.
