Ridiculous expectations from preceptors

[DagS132]

...
Again, I want to make myself clear. I don't want to sell cs, and that's against my interest. Instead, I want to protect my lunch and hide the whereabouts of the goldmine and just watch on the sideline... as I brag about how awesome and easy it is to get these jobs because 100% of all tech workers output great results

You literally contradict yourself with every post

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[letsquitpharm]

You literally contradict yourself with every post

Yeah, let me contradict myself, and the whole cs career thing is merely a myth and utter bust. PLEASE DO NOT CODE FOR A LIVING. IT ABSOLUTELY SUCKS, SATISFIED?......can't wait to see my bank account balloon to 1M+ cash in a couple of yrs lol. I don't wanna see another competitor with a similar background as mine when I interview for a VP position ten yrs down the road. So don't code, stay in pharmacy. pharmacy is awesome 👏

 

[Dred Pirate]

all preceptors should read this article

The Myth of the Tough Preceptor — The Overrun

I had a reputation as a tough preceptor. I was the one that people either sought out because they wanted the challenge; or the one that they avoided. I thought I held students to a high standard, thought I was tough but fair, and thought that any student of mine who passed through my finishing schoo

www.overrunproductions.com

 

[deleted727644]

all preceptors should read this article

The Myth of the Tough Preceptor — The Overrun

I had a reputation as a tough preceptor. I was the one that people either sought out because they wanted the challenge; or the one that they avoided. I thought I held students to a high standard, thought I was tough but fair, and thought that any student of mine who passed through my finishing schoo

www.overrunproductions.com

“Finally, remember as preceptors, it’s not up to us whether or not someone will “make” it. Every little turtle may not make it to the ocean; but we have a responsibility to make sure as many of them as possible do. That’s the job of a preceptor. Not a gatekeeper, but someone who can teach how to get over the bar”
👏🏾

 

[Sparda29]

Yeah, let me contradict myself, and the whole cs career thing is merely a myth and utter bust. PLEASE DO NOT CODE FOR A LIVING. IT ABSOLUTELY SUCKS, SATISFIED?......can't wait to see my bank account balloon to 1M+ cash in a couple of yrs lol. I don't wanna see another competitor with a similar background as mine when I interview for a VP position ten yrs down the road. So don't code, stay in pharmacy. pharmacy is awesome 👏

Meh, coding seems harder than Organic Chem and I failed that **** twice.

 

[BC_89]

......can't wait to see my bank account balloon to 1M+ cash in a couple of yrs lol. I don't wanna see another competitor with a similar background as mine when I interview for a VP position ten yrs down the road.

1) Had two terrible preceptors
2) Bailed out of pharmacy
3) Lived up to your username & switched to coding making six figures (like every user on here in the existence of the pharm threads).

Now let's bring it back to point #1:
Tell us details of the "newly minted hospital preceptor who got out of residency herself one yr prior, and she made my life absolutely miserable every freaking day when I was there. She made me wanna quit pharmacy the next day when my diploma paper arrived my mailbox"

What specifically did she make you do? Did you have an initial, mid, and final eval? What did she say? What exactly was the breaking point that placed your preceptors from the "bad" category to the 'nasty' category?

 

[letsquitpharm]

1) Had two terrible preceptors
2) Bailed out of pharmacy
3) Lived up to your username & switched to coding making six figures (like every user on here in the existence of the pharm threads).

Now let's bring it back to point #1:
Tell us details of the "newly minted hospital preceptor who got out of residency herself one yr prior, and she made my life absolutely miserable every freaking day when I was there. She made me wanna quit pharmacy the next day when my diploma paper arrived my mailbox"

What specifically did she make you do? Did you have an initial, mid, and final eval? What did she say? What exactly was the breaking point that placed your preceptors from the "bad" category to the 'nasty' category?

Her rotation was my very first hospital exposure. I was very upfront with her on day one. I made clear that I had no hospital exp whatsoever, and I knew hospital was not something I wanna do postgrad. I was there simply because I had to. That being said, I was told by her to work on multiple new patients' cases every day, do med rec and work out careplans (4-5 pages each), and meet up with her every afternoon to debrief, despite my school advising preceptors to gradually increase workload week by week. I was routinely berated and quizzed on random stuff like lines of therapy for acute severe ulcerative colitis and pivotal trials etc...of course, I had no idea about that and could only give her generic answers like "I need to go and look that up", but then she would get visually upset and complain how I should be allowed to be there (We didn't cover UC thoroughly in lecture)...I was pissed without a doubt, but I was still trying to be respectful and do whatever I could to meet her crazy demands, including skipping lunches to finish writing careplans cuz she went absolutely nuts the day prior and questioned my productivity......As a student, what could I do other than sucking it up?

Then she gave me a failing grade at midpoint eval, and I was invited to the school coordinator office to discuss what I can do to improve. I told the coordinator what I experienced, and the coordinator later contacted my preceptor and made mutual agreement to do weekly progress reporting, to make sure I can eventually pass the rotation. For the following weeks, I was told by both my preceptor and coordinator that my performance was improving significantly (cuz I left home at 6AM, went home at 5PM, ate dinner & took a nap then started coding til 2-3AM, and repeat, from Monday to Friday) and was reasonably expected to pass. That was my assessment as well...... Well, until the very last day of the rotation, my preceptor told me she can't let me pass final eval, due to some dubious and subjective assessment that was contradictory to the weekly progress report she gave the coordinator just a couple of days ago.

I was furious, and that was pretty much the breaking point for me. I was calm as hell on the spot, but immediately afterwards I emailed the coordinator and explained what I have done, the above and beyond efforts I made, and detailed why I deserved to pass. A week later, the coordinator emailed me back that my grade was finally adjusted to a pass...

It was not a fun experience at all. I was not alone. The other fellow student failed as well and had to delay graduation for a year and redo another rotation to make it up I heard. And I lost my last bit of respect for clinical pharmacists, especially the residency-trained ones who think they finally "made it" and have all the power to sabotage upcoming students' careers. This is not only not ok, but pure evil.

 

[Sparda29]

Her rotation was my very first hospital exposure. I was very upfront with her on day one. I made clear that I had no hospital exp whatsoever, and I knew hospital was not something I wanna do postgrad. I was there simply because I had to. That being said, I was told by her to work on multiple new patients' cases every day, do med rec and work out careplans (4-5 pages each), and meet up with her every afternoon to debrief, despite my school advising preceptors to gradually increase workload week by week. I was routinely berated and quizzed on random stuff like lines of therapy for acute severe ulcerative colitis and pivotal trials etc...of course, I had no idea about that and could only give her generic answers like "I need to go and look that up", but then she would get visually upset and complain how I should be allowed to be there (We didn't cover UC thoroughly in lecture)...I was pissed without a doubt, but I was still trying to be respectful and do whatever I could to meet her crazy demands, including skipping lunches to finish writing careplans cuz she went absolutely nuts the day prior and questioned my productivity......As a student, what could I do other than sucking it up?

Then she gave me a failing grade at midpoint eval, and I was invited to the school coordinator office to discuss what I can do to improve. I told the coordinator what I experienced, and the coordinator later contacted my preceptor and made mutual agreement to do weekly progress reporting, to make sure I can eventually pass the rotation. For the following weeks, I was told by both my preceptor and coordinator that my performance was improving significantly (cuz I left home at 6AM, went home at 5PM, ate dinner & took a nap then started coding til 2-3AM, and repeat, from Monday to Friday) and was reasonably expected to pass. That was my assessment as well...... Well, until the very last day of the rotation, my preceptor told me she can't let me pass, due to some dubious and subjective assessment that was contradictory to the weekly progress report she gave the coordinator just a couple of days ago.

I was furious, and that was pretty much the breaking point for me. I was calm as hell on the spot, but immediately afterwards I emailed the coordinator and explained what I have done, the above and beyond efforts I made, and detailed why I deserved to pass. A week later, the coordinator emailed me back that my grade was finally adjusted to a pass...

It was not a fun experience at all. I was not alone. The other fellow student failed as well and had to delay graduation for a year and redo another rotation to make it up I heard. And I lost my last bit of respect for clinical pharmacists, especially the residency-trained ones who think they finally "made it" and have all the power to sabotage upcoming students' careers. This is not only not ok, but pure evil.

Honestly, if some student told me that they are only here because they have to be, I'd probably also make their experience rough. Should have just said you have no idea what hospital is like and want to learn. Saying that you have no intention of doing hospital after graduation sounds insulting.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Honestly, if some student told me that they are only here because they have to be, I'd probably also make their experience rough. Should have just said you have no idea what hospital is like and want to learn. Saying that you have no intention of doing hospital after graduation sounds insulting.

Not necessarily. I had prior rotations at independent pharmacy and clinical informatics. All three current and former pharmacist preceptors were very upfront with me on day one. They wanted to know my career plan and give appropriate advice. My clinical informatics preceptors even offered to retain me there cuz their SQL and C# guys were planning to retire that year, and the hospital was also scrambling to establish a much larger clinical analytics department. My independent pharmacy preceptor outright encouraged me to pursue cs and big data cuz two of her boys were interning at Tesla and Microsoft. Not all pharmacists are indifferent I suppose.

Now I am also a "preceptor" to PhD interns. I would absolutely want to know my interns personally and help them career-wise however I can. Maybe the person has a different vision than mine, but that should not make me feel offended in any way. Why is expressing postgrad career plan insulting? I don't get it.

 

[owlegrad]

It’s one thing to say your career goals and it’s another to say “I am only here because I have to be”. I kinda don’t believe you don’t see that.

Every preceptor knows you are only there because you have to be. Heck I only work because I have to. Some things don’t need to be said to be understood.

 

[Macaronique11]

I went to a cheap public school, so my total debt was manageable and minimal, ~60k.

I went straight into industry. I made 120k 1st yr, 200k+ 2nd yr, and will be making 400k+/yr starting Jan 2023. I am <3y out of pharmacy school and have double masters, one in Chem and one in CS, for which I pursued shortly after pharmacy school.

WOW ! Computer Science?

 

[letsquitpharm]

It’s one thing to say your career goals and it’s another to say “I am only here because I have to be”. I kinda don’t believe you don’t see that.

Every preceptor knows you are only there because you have to be. Heck I only work because I have to. Some things don’t need to be said to be understood.

I didn't explicitly say "I am here cuz I am forced to". That was just my comment for you guys to understand. I only said to her that I was not considering pursuing a hospital residency and was planning to land an industry job postgrad, and that was as far as I went in terms of career plan discussion with her.

The other student, who told her he wanted to do community pharmacy postgrad, also received a fail...so I don't think this is the cause of our mistreatment unless the preceptor has an obvious prejudice and discrimination against any student who had no interest in going down the "clinical pharmacy" path, for which is hypocritical and justifies my previous arguments.

 

[deleted727644]

Honestly, if some student told me that they are only here because they have to be, I'd probably also make their experience rough. Should have just said you have no idea what hospital is like and want to learn. Saying that you have no intention of doing hospital after graduation sounds insulting.

I don’t think it’s insulting. It’s simply sharing your post graduation goals with your preceptor. Not everyone wants to do hospital and it’s fine the student shared that with his preceptor if the question was asked. Some students know what kind of pharmacist they want to be and some don’t and some need more time. Preceptors ask students if they’ve worked or if they plan on doing residency just to gauge where the student stands and to work on improving their skills but the fact that you said you’ll make this student’s experience rough just because the student was being transparent about their career goals makes you sound like a tyrant

 

[projektreverb]

Honestly it’s also about how you phrase it. I was very respectful in the way I said I didn’t want to be a hospital clinician. I saw some of my fellow students word it in a negative way and sure enough they were the ones that got **** on by the preceptors the most.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Honestly it’s also about how you phrase it. I was very respectful in the way I said I didn’t want to be a hospital clinician. I saw some of my fellow students word it in a negative way and sure enough they were the ones that got **** on by the preceptors the most.

I would assume most students would want to phrase it in a respectful way. Nobody wants to draw unnecessary attention and risk retaliation from someone who has the power to single-handedly fail them.

 

[projektreverb]

I would assume most students would want to phrase it in a respectful way. Nobody wants to draw unnecessary attention and risk retaliation from someone who has the power to single-handedly fail them.

Also true. I had a classmate land with a sh*thead preceptor who was hell bent on failing him from day 1. I don’t know the specifics but I do know he vanished from the site at midpoint and was forced to use his off block to do another rotation to graduate on time.

 

[owlegrad]

I would assume most students would want to phrase it in a respectful way. Nobody wants to draw unnecessary attention and risk retaliation from someone who has the power to single-handedly fail them.

You might be surprised. A lot of people just have no idea how they come across.

 

[letsquitpharm]

You might be surprised. A lot of people just have no idea how they come across.

By P4, I would expect most people to know how important connections are in this business...I had a friend who was a super nice guy by any standards failed by his preceptor as well. It's very subjective after all. You can be the nicest guy/gal in town, and if somehow the preceptor doesn't like you as a person, or just don't like your hair, he/she might have already made up mind failing you on day 1, and the rest of the rotation is just a process of finding enough pretext to "justify" the prejudice. You can be the most knowledgeable person in your class, but if I want to specifically target you, I can find a million ways to make you look bad and then throw you under the bus. This is why people complain about it here, which is the lack of objectivity and compassion. The other nasty pharmacist preceptor I had worked in a chain, and she would do anything to make her students feel bad about themselves in front of customers if she doesn't like them. I had a thick skin so it didn't really bother me. But the student in the next block later reached out to me saying the preceptor's public shaming of her went so far and eventually made her cry in front of everyone, and she wanted to report the preceptor to the district manager and school. That was just one tip of the iceberg.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Plenty of class mates coming off as a-holes dead set on only working retail (mainly out of obligations, finances, family, etc.) not giving a damn about hospital. If I was their preceptor, I would feel like I’m wasting my time as these type of students are just wasting opportunities to expand their mindset and growth. What seems non relevant to someone’s work environment may easily become relevant when a patient is in transition of care

 

[letsquitpharm]

Plenty of class mates coming off as a-holes dead set on only working retail (mainly out of obligations, finances, family, etc.) not giving a damn about hospital. If I was their preceptor, I would feel like I’m wasting my time as these type of students are just wasting opportunities to expand their mindset and growth. What seems non relevant to someone’s work environment may easily become relevant when a patient is in transition of care

Your condescending attitude towards your pharmacy colleagues justifies my previous arguments. Not everyone wants to do hospital, and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of my cohort were dead set on industry if you ask them privately and if an opportunity presents itself. Several of our clinical profs set good examples and jumped from academia/hospital to industry as well. What I learned in rotations ended up nonrelevant to my daily work at all, not even remotely close. Isn't that a waste of time for everyone? Yes, I would think so. But that doesn't necessarily mean a preceptor can use this as a pretext to abuse students in any way. That's just not acceptable and tells a lot about the hypocritical nature and double standards of some pharmacy preceptors.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

What I learned in rotations ended up nonrelevant to my daily work at all, not even remotely close. Isn't that a waste of time for everyone? Yes, I would think so

I would say no. Just because your plan was to go the industry route doesn't change the requirements for your degree/license. You still need to demonstrate that you can at least somewhat competently work in other traditional pharmacist roles.

 

[letsquitpharm]

I would say no. Just because your plan was to go the industry route doesn't change the requirements for your degree/license. You still need to demonstrate that you can at least somewhat competently work in other traditional pharmacist roles.

That "requirement" you brought up undermines the very reason why students have to complete a hospital rotation in the first place and creates a logical dilemma. NAPLEX doesn't cover a lot of real world stuff students encountered in hospital, so is that not required in traditional pharmacist role then? If that is required, why isn't part of the qualifying exam? Either way, holding students accountable for and getting them penalized for rules and practices that are non-universally adopted isn't a fair act at all.

And however I want to leverage my degree has nothing to do with the matter of students on the receiving end of preceptor abuses.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

That "requirement" you brought up undermines the very reason why students have to complete a hospital rotation in the first place and creates a logical dilemma. NAPLEX doesn't cover a lot of real world stuff students encountered in hospital, so is that not required in traditional pharmacist role then? If that is required, why isn't part of the qualifying exam? Either way, holding students accountable for and getting them penalized for rules and practices that are non-universally adopted isn't a fair act at all.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

And however I want to leverage my degree has nothing to do with the matter of students on the receiving end of preceptor abuses.

Agreed, it's a side comment based on your statement that your hospital rotations had nothing to do with your daily work.

I'm just saying that:
1- hospital rotations are a requirement for the degree. Given that you are (or in this case, were) studying for a degree that allows you to work in hospital settings, I think that's fair.
2- even if the direct work isn't what you end up doing, a lot of the skills that you learn can be useful in other pharmacy careers

 

[letsquitpharm]

2- even if the direct work isn't what you end up doing, a lot of the skills that you learn can be useful in other pharmacy careers

My daily work involves like at most one survey course pharmacy students have to take in P1, and that's probably it. None of those clinical stuff and guidelines are relevant to what I do as I can hardly remember much of it now. What I learned the most from my APPEs is actually how to not become a mentor students hate so much...

Again, requirement or not, preceptor abuses should not be tolerated and not acceptable. Nobody signed up for pharmacy schools needs to be treated like a cattle while paying massive tuition and making no money doing part of preceptors' job.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

My daily work involves like at most one survey course pharmacy students have to take in P1, and that's probably it. None of those clinical stuff and guidelines are relevant to what I do as I can hardly remember much of it now. What I learned the most from my APPEs is actually how to not become a mentor students hate so much...

0% of my job requires anything directly related to pharmacy. Just because we went with nontraditional routes doesn't mean the pharmacy curriculum was wrong. Arguably we were wrong for choosing pharmacy but it seems to have worked out for both of us so 🤷‍♂️

Again, requirement or not, preceptor abuses should not be tolerated and not acceptable. Nobody signed up for pharmacy schools needs to be treated like a cattle while paying massive tuition and making no money doing part of preceptors' job.

No arguments here. I hate bad preceptors as much as the next guy.

 

[Sparda29]

My daily work involves like at most one survey course pharmacy students have to take in P1, and that's probably it. None of those clinical stuff and guidelines are relevant to what I do as I can hardly remember much of it now. What I learned the most from my APPEs is actually how to not become a mentor students hate so much...

Again, requirement or not, preceptor abuses should not be tolerated and not acceptable. Nobody signed up for pharmacy schools needs to be treated like a cattle while paying massive tuition and making no money doing part of preceptors' job.

Say that to med students.

Med students get **** on by interns. Interns get **** on by residents. Residents get **** on by the chief resident. Chief resident gets it from the attending. Attendings get it from the department head. Department heads get it from the Chief.

 

[KidPharmD]

I bet those holy-grail clinical pharmacists are tough preceptors

I didn't think I was one of these, but got the first actually negative feedback from a student for the first time over this last year (we only get feed back once a year), and I am a little upset by it. I am 90% sure I know what student this was and I guess I could have done it differently, but I am also not sure if I could have identified the issue in the moment. Well, I guess I got some pretty negative feedback the time I had to fail a student, but I guess that was expected at least.

“Finally, remember as preceptors, it’s not up to us whether or not someone will “make” it. Every little turtle may not make it to the ocean; but we have a responsibility to make sure as many of them as possible do. That’s the job of a preceptor. Not a gatekeeper, but someone who can teach how to get over the bar”
👏🏾

I think I view myself as a gatekeeper only because I am very protective of any influence I have. I know that students will put my name on their CV and that not everyone who sees that will reach out to me about that student.

Honestly, if some student told me that they are only here because they have to be, I'd probably also make their experience rough. Should have just said you have no idea what hospital is like and want to learn. Saying that you have no intention of doing hospital after graduation sounds insulting.

I have had plenty of students tell me that they had no intention of doing anything related to my rotation after graduation. My rotation is not a basic one so I usually ask why they chose to take my rotation and what they want to learn from it. That usually helps me to make sure they get something out of it. It is a little annoying when I do get these students since I always have students who are interested in my area that don't get my rotation. That isn't necessarily the fault of the students I do get though.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Say that to med students.

Med students get **** on by interns. Interns get **** on by residents. Residents get **** on by the chief resident. Chief resident gets it from the attending. Attendings get it from the department head. Department heads get it from the Chief.

I didn't attend med school, so I don't know much about their hierarchy. This is a pharmacy post I suppose.

 

[letsquitpharm]

I think I view myself as a gatekeeper only because I am very protective of any influence I have. I know that students will put my name on their CV and that not everyone who sees that will reach out to me about that student.

I would recommend letting the market force do its job as the ultimate gatekeeper as opposed to individual preceptors. Obviously, there are plenty of PGY-1/2 trained residents waiting on the sideline so eager to secure a coveted spot, who would ever care about whoever preceptors they trained with during P4 year?

 

[Dred Pirate]

I think I view myself as a gatekeeper only because I am very protective of any influence I have. I know that students will put my name on their CV and that not everyone who sees that will reach out to me about that student.

I usually agree with most of what you post here but gonna have to disagree on this one for several reasons. Preceptors (myself included) are not gatekeepers for students. We are here to teach them to the best of our and their ability. Of their ability isn’t good enough to pass the Naplex after we spend one month with them. Then so be it. If have a bad student/new hire, I am not gonna look back at their CV and say”oh well kid pharmd had them. She must have done a crappy job in that one month she spent with them. That is entirely why they suck”.

I mean I think you value your influence a lot more than what it actually is. You might be able to influence someone with yo ur words when they ask, I believe I do, but just your name and m someone’s else’s CV doesn’t really mean much

 

[KidPharmD]

I would recommend letting the market force do its job as the ultimate gatekeeper as opposed to individual preceptors. Obviously, there are plenty of PGY-1/2 trained residents waiting on the sideline so eager to secure a coveted spot, who would ever care about whoever preceptors they trained with during P4 year?

If they get through residency, I couldn't care less. However, students must first obtain a PGY1 and many will go straight for a job. I want to believe that students who put my name on their CV's have at least learned the minimum amount that I have to teach them. Those that fail to do so shouldn't pass my rotation. It isn't really my fault that an F on a rotation is such a barrier to graduation, nor is it my fault that the colleges send me students who are completely unprepared.

 

[KidPharmD]

I usually agree with most of what you post here but gonna have to disagree on this one for several reasons. Preceptors (myself included) are not gatekeepers for students. We are here to teach them to the best of our and their ability. Of their ability isn’t good enough to pass the Naplex after we spend one month with them. Then so be it. If have a bad student/new hire, I am not gonna look back at their CV and say”oh well kid pharmd had them. She must have done a crappy job in that one month she spent with them. That is entirely why they suck”.

I mean I think you value your influence a lot more than what it actually is. You might be able to influence someone with yo ur words when they ask, I believe I do, but just your name and m someone’s else’s CV doesn’t really mean much

I didn't feel like this till I had it happen. I had a student pass my rotation, but only barely. Much later I talked with a friend who hired this new pharmacist. He was telling me how he didn't think they were going to work out. He was surprised when I said that made sense. Part of what put them above other applicants was the "strength" of their CV including peds experience (my rotation specificially). My friend didn't call me because their HR prohibits them from making "additional inquiries" about the applicant other than what is in the application.

BTW, I don't decide grades. I always fill out the evals as honestly as I can and then let the schools assign the grade based on my eval. Most of the schools I precept for don't even let us see what grade will be calculated until after we submit the eval. If I wasn't supposed to be a little bit of a "gatekeeper" then there would be no reason for me to give grades or objective evals at all. I should just be able to submit one subjective paragraph at the end of a rotation and be done with it. But that isn't how it works. Instead I have to evaluate 10-15 different areas, assign a project with a A-F or numerical grade and sometimes a written exam.

I do my best to teach everything I can to students that are extremely unprepared (because no school covers pediatrics well), but not every student performs the same and sending them all through with the same grade isn't fair to those that put the effort in.

Finally, the only time I have actually failed a student was for academic misconduct that continued after I gave a warning (that I shouldn't have given). The school decided to "remediate" that student and graduate them on time anyway. My name is also on their CV.

 

[deleted727644]

If they get through residency, I couldn't care less. However, students must first obtain a PGY1 and many will go straight for a job. I want to believe that students who put my name on their CV's have at least learned the minimum amount that I have to teach them. Those that fail to do so shouldn't pass my rotation. It isn't really my fault that an F on a rotation is such a barrier to graduation, nor is it my fault that the colleges send me students who are completely unprepared.

What is the minimum amount you have to teach students? What is your usual expectation to pass a student?

 

[deleted727644]

I didn't feel like this till I had it happen. I had a student pass my rotation, but only barely. Much later I talked with a friend who hired this new pharmacist. He was telling me how he didn't think they were going to work out. He was surprised when I said that made sense. Part of what put them above other applicants was the "strength" of their CV including peds experience (my rotation specificially). My friend didn't call me because their HR prohibits them from making "additional inquiries" about the applicant other than what is in the application.

BTW, I don't decide grades. I always fill out the evals as honestly as I can and then let the schools assign the grade based on my eval. Most of the schools I precept for don't even let us see what grade will be calculated until after we submit the eval. If I wasn't supposed to be a little bit of a "gatekeeper" then there would be no reason for me to give grades or objective evals at all. I should just be able to submit one subjective paragraph at the end of a rotation and be done with it. But that isn't how it works. Instead I have to evaluate 10-15 different areas, assign a project with a A-F or numerical grade and sometimes a written exam.

I do my best to teach everything I can to students that are extremely unprepared (because no school covers pediatrics well), but not every student performs the same and sending them all through with the same grade isn't fair to those that put the effort in.

Finally, the only time I have actually failed a student was for academic misconduct that continued after I gave a warning (that I shouldn't have given). The school decided to "remediate" that student and graduate them on time anyway. My name is also on their CV.

You just said you don’t decide grades but then you say you failed a student for academic misconduct. I think after evaluating one student and getting the grade back after you submit the evaluation gives you an idea of the school’s grading scale. Can you confidently say you are being unbiased or objective when evaluating a student on the evaluation then? If I was a preceptor and if I knew what each ratings meant in terms of a grade, I would think more in terms of the grade instead of the ratings.

Unless the student writes you as a reference on their CV or gives your contact info on their CV, I doubt HR will contact you . I would hope HR is smart enough to know that they’re not hiring a student anymore, they’re hiring a pharmacist. One who went through a whole year of APPE training and passed their boards and most likely had a lot of professional growth. If you think someone’s growth is stagnant after 1 pediatric rotation, I’m not sure how you’re a preceptor.

 

[KidPharmD]

What is the minimum amount you have to teach students? What is your usual expectation to pass a student?

I have a syllabus that explains what I expect students to be able to do by the end of the rotation. For the most part I expect students to be a 2 or 3 key things from each topic discussion. I don't test on the side discussions we have. I expect students to be able to develop decent med history skills by the end of the rotation. I expect clear improvement on their patient presentations. I tell them exactly how I will fill out their eval at the beginning of the rotation. I have never had a student fail to do at least these things. Yes, some have scrapped by and others have excelled but all who followed the code of conduct of their university passed. Looking at my gradebook, most have gotten an A or A- with a few B's and a couple of C's.

You just said you don’t decide grades but then you say you failed a student for academic misconduct. I think after evaluating one student and getting the grade back after you submit the evaluation gives you an idea of the school’s grading scale. Can you confidently say you are being unbiased or objective when evaluating a student on the evaluation then? If I was a preceptor and if I knew what each ratings meant in terms of a grade, I would think more in terms of the grade instead of the ratings.

Unless the student writes you as a reference on their CV or gives your contact info on their CV, I doubt HR will contact you . I would hope HR is smart enough to know that they’re not hiring a student anymore, they’re hiring a pharmacist. One who went through a whole year of APPE training and passed their boards and most likely had a lot of professional growth. If you think someone’s growth is stagnant after 1 pediatric rotation, I’m not sure how you’re a preceptor.

I don't think following the school guidelines for how to respond to clear academic misconduct qualifies as "deciding their grade."

The schools don't tell us how their evals calculate the grade and they change almost every year. I have no idea what the weighting is on each individual evaluation item or the points assigned to each rating (Exceeds, meets, etc). I take 4-5 students from each year from 4 different colleges so it is unusual for me to have more than 2 students from the same college in a given year. Yes, I know exactly how to give an A or a F, but how to get any individual grade in between there is a mystery in most cases.

As an aside, I am doing this with almost no feedback. I take so few students from any individual college that none are excited to give me the results of the student evaluations (because they would be identifiable - understandable). I try to always incorporate any feedback I am given when I do get it. I really do want all of my students to do well and learn a lot. I love talking about my area and am never upset at being asked questions (except on maybe the 3rd or 4th time). The only ones I have not enjoyed teaching are the ones that didn't seem to want to be on my rotation.

 

[deleted727644]

I have a syllabus that explains what I expect students to be able to do by the end of the rotation. For the most part I expect students to be a 2 or 3 key things from each topic discussion. I don't test on the side discussions we have. I expect students to be able to develop decent med history skills by the end of the rotation. I expect clear improvement on their patient presentations. I tell them exactly how I will fill out their eval at the beginning of the rotation. I have never had a student fail to do at least these things. Yes, some have scrapped by and others have excelled but all who followed the code of conduct of their university passed. Looking at my gradebook, most have gotten an A or A- with a few B's and a couple of C's.

I don't think following the school guidelines for how to respond to clear academic misconduct qualifies as "deciding their grade."

The schools don't tell us how their evals calculate the grade and they change almost every year. I have no idea what the weighting is on each individual evaluation item or the points assigned to each rating (Exceeds, meets, etc). I take 4-5 students from each year from 4 different colleges so it is unusual for me to have more than 2 students from the same college in a given year. Yes, I know exactly how to give an A or a F, but how to get any individual grade in between there is a mystery in most cases.

As an aside, I am doing this with almost no feedback. I take so few students from any individual college that none are excited to give me the results of the student evaluations (because they would be identifiable - understandable). I try to always incorporate any feedback I am given when I do get it. I really do want all of my students to do well and learn a lot. I love talking about my area and am never upset at being asked questions (except on maybe the 3rd or 4th time). The only ones I have not enjoyed teaching are the ones that didn't seem to want to be on my rotation.

In that case I think you should have applications for your site. Students who genuinely want to learn about pediatrics since this seems to be an elective type rotation anyway.

 

[KidPharmD]

In that case I think you should have applications for your site. Students who genuinely want to learn about pediatrics since this seems to be an elective type rotation anyway.

I would love this option, but am not given it at all. I submit my availability, students submit their wants and I am assigned students. Theoretically, every student who has my rotation put it on a list somewhere. Not really sure why the ones who aren't interested end up here. Maybe their interests changed or maybe they are just suffering from a case of senioritis. I don't hold the former against them and I totally understand the latter.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I didn't feel like this till I had it happen. I had a student pass my rotation, but only barely. Much later I talked with a friend who hired this new pharmacist. He was telling me how he didn't think they were going to work out. He was surprised when I said that made sense. Part of what put them above other applicants was the "strength" of their CV including peds experience (my rotation specificially). My friend didn't call me because their HR prohibits them from making "additional inquiries" about the applicant other than what is in the application.

BTW, I don't decide grades.

Your friend made a bad decision- just because a student took what is perceived as a good rotation, doesn't mean they are a good student. I mean, would you rather have a student who barely passed a "good rotation" or some one who got an A + on a "bad rotation"? And I use parenthesis because it is all relative - Virtually all of the applications I review don't list student rotations because we don't hire new grads (not that I agree with this, and that is a conversation for another day) - but even when I do see them, I pay literally 0 percent attention to them. Any half the time they are not local, so they are just names on a piece of paper.

Many schools (mine included and the school I precept for) don't give letter grades for rotations, they are pass/fail.

 

[Dred Pirate]

The schools don't tell us how their evals calculate the grade and they change almost every year. I have no idea what the weighting is on each individual evaluation item or the points assigned to each rating (Exceeds, meets, etc). I take 4-5 students from each year from 4 different colleges so it is unusual for me to have more than 2 students from the same college in a given year. Yes, I know exactly how to give an A or a F, but how to get any individual grade in between there is a mystery in most cases.

This is honestly the dumbest way I have ever heard of giving grades (besides the points, grades on rotation are just silly to begin with). If they are going to give a grade, the preceptor should be the one assigning it.

Do you mind sharing what school this is?

 

[KidPharmD]

This is honestly the dumbest way I have ever heard of giving grades (besides the points, grades on rotation are just silly to begin with). If they are going to give a grade, the preceptor should be the one assigning it.

Do you mind sharing what school this is?

I'd rather not, but I will say that I went and checked and it is 3 of the 4 schools I precept for. I think it is now the default in the common eval system around here to not show weighting or calculated grade.

Your friend made a bad decision- just because a student took what is perceived as a good rotation, doesn't mean they are a good student. I mean, would you rather have a student who barely passed a "good rotation" or some one who got an A + on a "bad rotation"? And I use parenthesis because it is all relative - Virtually all of the applications I review don't list student rotations because we don't hire new grads (not that I agree with this, and that is a conversation for another day) - but even when I do see them, I pay literally 0 percent attention to them. Any half the time they are not local, so they are just names on a piece of paper.

Many schools (mine included and the school I precept for) don't give letter grades for rotations, they are pass/fail.

I agree it was a bad decision, just made me think. I have also had the opposite happen, btw. A former resident mentioned that they had hired a former student of mine who was doing great. Didn't mention that my rotation had any influence on it, but they had noticed it on the CV. I don't really think I actually have a lot of "influence." I have gotten to know a lot of people and that group gets bigger every year. I know people are looking for whatever tiny thing to make hiring decisions as they have more and more "equally" qualified candidates when hiring.

I don't know how I would precept for a Pass/Fail school. I expect it to come eventually, and honestly I just hope it happens all at once, but I could drastically change my evaluation methods.

 

[letsquitpharm]

If they get through residency, I couldn't care less. However, students must first obtain a PGY1 and many will go straight for a job. I want to believe that students who put my name on their CV's have at least learned the minimum amount that I have to teach them. Those that fail to do so shouldn't pass my rotation. It isn't really my fault that an F on a rotation is such a barrier to graduation, nor is it my fault that the colleges send me students who are completely unprepared.

I have rarely seen my PhD interns' resumes with their supervisors and committee members' names written on them, let alone for PharmD putting someone they barely spent 5-6 weeks with on their resumes. I have to admit you made a false assumption. Well, if none of your students put your name on CVs, does that discharge your moral responsibilities then lol?

 

[Dred Pirate]

I don't know how I would precept for a Pass/Fail school. I expect it to come eventually, and honestly I just hope it happens all at once, but I could drastically change my evaluation methods.

I personally am not a fan of grades for a rotation - in the whole scheme of things grades as a whole just don't matter (this is coming from someone who graduated in the top three of a 105 person class as an established school).

I have only threatened to fail one student- and that is simply because they were flat up lazy. They didn't do the assignments given. I told them I knew they had a job lined up and had no desire to work hospital, that is fine, but you need a degree to get that job, and to get that degree, you need to pass the rotation. Then she did a 180 and did an excellent job. I have no idea what letter grade I would have given her.

Plus with grades, it usually just inflates their GPA and students spend to much time focusing on the grade vs the learning. I think without the worry of what grade I am getting, it allows them to focus more on actually becoming a competent pharmacist. I guess that is one of many reasons why I prefer precepting residents over students.

I could be wrong, but I don't think med students get graded on rotations, they have their various STEP exams to pass.

 

[KidPharmD]

I have rarely seen my PhD interns' resumes with their supervisors and committee members' names written on them, let alone for PharmD putting someone they barely spent 5-6 weeks with on their resumes. I have to admit you made a false assumption. Well, if none of your students put your name on CVs, does that discharge your moral responsibilities then lol?

I have never reviewed a CV for a new grad applicant with out a list of their rotations and preceptors, and I have reviewed literally hundreds through residency recruitment. We actually do occasionally interview/hire new grads for non-residency positions as well and theirs are the same. I think this may be the place where your out of the box experience no longer applies.

 

[KidPharmD]

I personally am not a fan of grades for a rotation - in the whole scheme of things grades as a whole just don't matter (this is coming from someone who graduated in the top three of a 105 person class as an established school).

I have only threatened to fail one student- and that is simply because they were flat up lazy. They didn't do the assignments given. I told them I knew they had a job lined up and had no desire to work hospital, that is fine, but you need a degree to get that job, and to get that degree, you need to pass the rotation. Then she did a 180 and did an excellent job. I have no idea what letter grade I would have given her.

Plus with grades, it usually just inflates their GPA and students spend to much time focusing on the grade vs the learning. I think without the worry of what grade I am getting, it allows them to focus more on actually becoming a competent pharmacist. I guess that is one of many reasons why I prefer precepting residents over students.

I could be wrong, but I don't think med students get graded on rotations, they have their various STEP exams to pass.

I think if we aren't going to grade rotations, then the entire thing should be pass/fail. GPA's that only include didactic courses don't mean as much. I'd be okay with moving to total pass fail if we had a better way to evaluate residency candidates. Medicine has step 2 scores which are out by residency. I'd love to have something standardized like that. We can't even guarantee that applicants will pass the NAPLEX anymore.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I think if we aren't going to grade rotations, then the entire thing should be pass/fail. GPA's that only include didactic courses don't mean as much. I'd be okay with moving to total pass fail if we had a better way to evaluate residency candidates. Medicine has step 2 scores which are out by residency. I'd love to have something standardized like that. We can't even guarantee that applicants will pass the NAPLEX anymore.

Didactic courses are consistent form student to student - the same profressor is grading all the students. In rotations there is just so much variation. I think it is actually a detriment to students learning to put a letter grade on rotations. You will get some that will avoid what is perceived as a hard rotation because they don't want their GPA to suffer.

And I agree I wish we had something similar to the STEP 2 scores - let the examination board be the gatekeeper.

 

[BC_89]

I have rarely seen my PhD interns' resumes with their supervisors and committee members' names written on them, let alone for PharmD putting someone they barely spent 5-6 weeks with on their resumes. I have to admit you made a false assumption. Well, if none of your students put your name on CVs, does that discharge your moral responsibilities then lol?

For every rotation I was on, I put the title of the rotation, the location/institute of the rotation, the name and title of my preceptor, as well as 3-4 bullet points highlighting my duties and roles on said rotation(s). I did the same when I applied to retail positions (and given offers) and not just my PHORCAS. I am not alone in this process, it's a very common lay-out that's done in preparation beyond graduation.

This is not an "extra-mile" approach either, this is a common-theme-approach when developing a CV as a new, not-licensed-yet grad. Everyone should be doing this as a minimum.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that this is a normal approach, but you're telling me you've never seen this done? How many CV's have you seen?

 

[Dred Pirate]

For every rotation I was on, I put the title of the rotation, the location/institute of the rotation, the name and title of my preceptor, as well as 3-4 bullet points highlighting my duties and roles on said rotation(s). I did the same when I applied to retail positions (and given offers) and not just my PHORCAS. I am not alone in this process, it's a very common lay-out that's done in preparation beyond graduation.

This is not an "extra-mile" approach either, this is a common-theme-approach when developing a CV as a new, not-licensed-yet grad. Everyone should be doing this as a minimum.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that this is a normal approach, but you're telling me you've never seen this done? How many CV's have you seen?

I see them on new grads (resident applications) - but once you have a job, I think they should be dropped (ie. you are applying for your second job post graduation)

 

[BC_89]

I see them on new grads (resident applications) - but once you have a job, I think they should be dropped (ie. you are applying for your second job post graduation)

100% agree. Once established, I'd consider all the bidding to graduation as fluff material once someone can put more relatable job experiences on board after practicing with their license.

It seemed like the previous comments was addressing CVs right out of graduation. Of which case, it just seems a bit hard to imagine someone not mentioning to some extent some (if not all) preceptors for some of their rotations.

 

[letsquitpharm]

For every rotation I was on, I put the title of the rotation, the location/institute of the rotation, the name and title of my preceptor, as well as 3-4 bullet points highlighting my duties and roles on said rotation(s). I did the same when I applied to retail positions (and given offers) and not just my PHORCAS. I am not alone in this process, it's a very common lay-out that's done in preparation beyond graduation.

This is not an "extra-mile" approach either, this is a common-theme-approach when developing a CV as a new, not-licensed-yet grad. Everyone should be doing this as a minimum.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that this is a normal approach, but you're telling me you've never seen this done? How many CV's have you seen?

I have read hundreds of resumes so far, from both applicants' and hiring perspectives. I omitted my entire APPE stuff when I applied for my first job out of school, and it was all fine. My interns never included the prior managers or their whole panel of committee members they had, and I don't expect them either. In addition, software engineers' resumes generally follow a strict one-page limit rule. Anything non-essential is seen as redundant.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I have read hundreds of resumes so far, from both applicants' and hiring perspectives. I omitted my entire APPE stuff when I applied for my first job out of school, and it was all fine. My interns never included the prior managers or their whole panel of committee members they had, and I don't expect them either. In addition, software engineers' resumes generally follow a strict one-page limit rule. Anything non-essential is seen as redundant.

Most new grad pharmacists have their APPEs listed until they land their first licensed job. Why do you keep trying to compare to other fields?