Unfair Preceptors

[deleted727644]

Why do directors even let recent graduates be preceptors? Directors shouldn’t even let young graduates grade students. I’ve noticed a trend that Those preceptors make their students do projects and use the students’ work, they’re unfair to students projecting their power of authority, overwork students, make students look bad so those students cant get job in that location, give lower grades because they don’t want the students getting residency, and if the student doesn’t kiss the preceptor’s a** then the student gets gossiped about. Are these recent graduates feeling intimidated by the students shining and potentially taking their position? Why can’t those preceptors focus on teaching rather than trying to ruin students future? I know this student whose preceptor encouraged them to apply to residency and wrote a bad rec letter and ruined their chance at residency and that student was RHO CHI. Another student had to deal with discrimination because that young recent graduate preceptor was interested in the student and gave that student a bad grade. That preceptor even told the student hope they don’t get any hospital job out of spite. Seriously shame on these preceptors. They were getting paid too to precept.

What do you guys think about preceptor who gossip with a student about another classmate when they’re in the same rotation? the student competing with another classmate & the preceptor causing more enmity between the 2 students? and the student who kisses a** of the preceptor end up with higher grade than the other classmate?

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[Twentytwelve2]

I went to a rotation site that had 3 recent resident grads/non resident grads and all they were interested in doing was making my life miserable. Not every "preceptor" is a good person. Just as there are good people in the world, there are bad people. People who are mean innately and want to tarnish others. They dont see themselves that way because it is part of their character, it is who they are as a person.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I had the opposite experience. The most laid back preceptor I had was like 27 years old and graduated 2 years prior. The most insane ones were old.

 

[owlegrad]

I will echo the sentiment that there are good and bad people everywhere, including preceptors. I will also say I know of a few situations where students were not at all self-aware about how poorly they were performing and blamed the preceptor.

 

[deleted727644]

I will echo the sentiment that there are good and bad people everywhere, including preceptors. I will also say I know of a few situations where students were not at all self-aware about how poorly they were performing and blamed the preceptor.

In those situations did the preceptor atleast let the student know of their poor performance by the midpoint? Or they just gave bad grade for the final evaluation pettily?

 

[RXDOC1986]

I was an Abulatory Rotation Preceptor for many years, when I first started, a great number of my students were my age or older. I tried to be fair and unbiased, but, human nature, there is always going to be some bias with anyone. I would only accept students from my alma mater, even though in this market, there were 3 pharmacy schools in need of sites. We were not compensated for our time, you either did it for the satisfaction of helping students, or you are on an ego trip. My rotation was an easy A, just show up (on time) and pretend to be interested, and you were good.

Being young and inexperienced is no excuse for bad behavior, I was 26, managed a Home Infusion Pharmacy, and was genuinely happy to help the students. Wasn't looking for a date, actually preferred male students, because we could go to lunch and hang out. I would keep in touch with the students, help them out anyway I could. I am still close friends with one, from over 38yrs plus ago.

The best lesson for the OP, life is unfair, deal with it. It is going to get much worse in real life.

 

[Sparda29]

It's the way of the world.

In med school, the med students report to the interns who report to the residents who report to the chief resident who reports to the attending who reports to their boss, etc.

I've experienced crazy/unfair preceptors of all ages. The young ones are usually keen on passing on the hazing they received as a student to the next generation. Old ones are usually set in their ways.

The old preceptors used to go in on me for being late, or for not being in full shirt + tie + suit pants, or for not showing pharmaceutical elegance in my compounding preparations (the cream in the jar not being flattened out with a spatula and then a little pointy tip, or the labels being crooked).

Young ones would go in on me for being lazy with journal clubs.

 

[Sparda29]

I had the opposite experience. The most laid back preceptor I had was like 27 years old and graduated 2 years prior. The most insane ones were old.

My MTM preceptor used to come smoke hookah with me and we would play Starcraft 2 together. I had to beat him to pass.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

The old preceptors used to go in on me for being late, or for not being in full shirt + tie + suit pants, or for not showing pharmaceutical elegance in my compounding preparations (the cream in the jar not being flattened out with a spatula and then a little pointy tip, or the labels being crooked).

Young ones would go in on me for being lazy with journal clubs.

Would you consider those unfair things to criticize?

 

[Sparda29]

Would you consider those unfair things to criticize?

Depends how late and for what reason. For me, it was because I didn't want to pay for parking and the free parking spots were no parking zones(street cleaning) in the morning until 9. So after parking, then you have to walk to the hospital.

Also dress code should be irrelevant. Students on rotations should be allowed to wear scrubs.

Journal clubs are probably the most useless things I did in pharmacy schools.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Depends how late and for what reason. For me, it was because I didn't want to pay for parking and the free parking spots were no parking zones(street cleaning) in the morning until 9. So after parking, then you have to walk to the hospital.

Also dress code should be irrelevant. Students on rotations should be allowed to wear scrubs.

Journal clubs are probably the most useless things I did in pharmacy schools.

Did other staff/students not have to deal with the same parking issues?

Dress codes can be somewhat arbitrary but they're a pretty standard thing to deal with.

What did you have against journal clubs?

 

[deleted727644]

Depends how late and for what reason. For me, it was because I didn't want to pay for parking and the free parking spots were no parking zones(street cleaning) in the morning until 9. So after parking, then you have to walk to the hospital.

Also dress code should be irrelevant. Students on rotations should be allowed to wear scrubs.

Journal clubs are probably the most useless things I did in pharmacy schools.

I’ve never seen actual Pharmacists even present Journal clubs. It’s usually doctors. So what’s the point of them as students? Even the authors of those journals are doctors never pharmacists

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I’ve never seen actual Pharmacists even present Journal clubs. It’s usually doctors. So what’s the point of them as students? Even the authors of those journals are doctors never pharmacists

The goal is to demonstrate the student can critically read and understand the articles. How can you make an evidence based recommendation without understanding the underlying research?

 

[projektreverb]

The goal is to demonstrate the student can critically read and understand the articles. How can you make an evidence based recommendation without understanding the underlying research?

I agree with this.

While I never liked journal clubs, I did see the larger point to them.

 

[deleted727644]

I was an Abulatory Rotation Preceptor for many years, when I first started, a great number of my students were my age or older. I tried to be fair and unbiased, but, human nature, there is always going to be some bias with anyone. I would only accept students from my alma mater, even though in this market, there were 3 pharmacy schools in need of sites. We were not compensated for our time, you either did it for the satisfaction of helping students, or you are on an ego trip. My rotation was an easy A, just show up (on time) and pretend to be interested, and you were good.

Being young and inexperienced is no excuse for bad behavior, I was 26, managed a Home Infusion Pharmacy, and was genuinely happy to help the students. Wasn't looking for a date, actually preferred male students, because we could go to lunch and hang out. I would keep in touch with the students, help them out anyway I could. I am still close friends with one, from over 38yrs plus ago.

The best lesson for the OP, life is unfair, deal with it. It is going to get much worse in real life.

so just like “if there are good people, there are bad people” then there will be bad preceptors..so what do y’all do when there are bad bosses? Just deal with it? Or talk it out or report to HR? Be difficult if you want but There needs to be a level of professionalism and fairness. Y’all can’t be normalizing toxic leaders

 

[owlegrad]

In those situations did the preceptor atleast let the student know of their poor performance by the midpoint? Or they just gave bad grade for the final evaluation pettily?

I don’t know every detail of every situation, but the two most egregious situations I can remember the students were given ample chances to improve. I am sure that isn’t always the case though.

 

[deleted727644]

I don’t know every detail of every situation, but the two most egregious situations I can remember the students were given ample chances to improve. I am sure that isn’t always the case though.

Well then that’s fair, not unfair if they were given chances and time to improve and the preceptor actually communicated an improvement plan to the student. I’m talking about cases where preceptors don’t and surprise the student at the end with a bad grade.

 

[BenJammin]

I don't want to repeat things that have already been said that I agree with (life sucks, it's not fair, these people shouldn't exist but they do, etc). But I'll say this to your point about the Rho Chi student: you need to have enough self awareness to not ask for a reference from someone who will not recommend you. I used to go back and forth on this but no longer. I will give a letter of recommendation to any and all students who ask me. If the best student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how great they were. If the worst student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how terrible they were.

How smart can this Rho Chi student be to ask for a recommendation from a preceptor that would give them a negative letter?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I’ve never seen actual Pharmacists even present Journal clubs. It’s usually doctors. So what’s the point of them as students? Even the authors of those journals are doctors never pharmacists

This isn't true at all. There are entire pharmacy centric journals written entirely by pharmacists.

 

[BenJammin]

so just like “if there are good people, there are bad people” then there will be bad preceptors..so what do y’all do when there are bad bosses? Just deal with it? Or talk it out or report to HR? Be difficult if you want but There needs to be a level of professionalism and fairness. Y’all can’t be normalizing toxic leaders

If you don't like your boss, just quit. If you can't handle a tough preceptor in your P4 year then you should drop out of pharmacy school.

 

[RXDOC1986]

so just like “if there are good people, there are bad people” then there will be bad preceptors..so what do y’all do when there are bad bosses? Just deal with it? Or talk it out or report to HR? Be difficult if you want but There needs to be a level of professionalism and fairness. Y’all can’t be normalizing toxic leaders

You, my friend, must not have lived or worked in the real world, much!
Again life, and work, sucks. There is absolutely no fairness to be had in this world.
Bad bosses, oh yes, I have had a few. You either suck it up and do the work, or you move on.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

How else should new pharmacists become preceptors, then?

 

[Sparda29]

Did other staff/students not have to deal with the same parking issues?

Dress codes can be somewhat arbitrary but they're a pretty standard thing to deal with.

What did you have against journal clubs?

The vast majority of people who work in NYC do not drive, they take the bus and subways or bike and have no sympathy for the plight of us car drivers, especially the drivers coming in from Long Island and Jersey and Westchester. A lot of drivers end up sucking it up and paying for parking. $20 a day for parking is a lot to ask for when you're a pharmacy student. There are metered parking spots but you have to go out and feed quarters every hour.

Never had a problem with lateness when it involved a place that had a free parking lot.

Every year we are seeing more and more driving lanes and parking spots being taken away and replaced with outdoor dining sheds, bike lanes, pedestrian plazas.

The problem I had with journal clubs was that I hate reading primary literature. To me, research means looking up on Uptodate, Lexicomp, Micromedex, Wikipedia.

 

[Sparda29]

How else should new pharmacists become preceptors, then?

I think he means maybe they should have to wait a few years working as a pharmacist before becoming a preceptor.

 

[Sparda29]

I don't want to repeat things that have already been said that I agree with (life sucks, it's not fair, these people shouldn't exist but they do, etc). But I'll say this to your point about the Rho Chi student: you need to have enough self awareness to not ask for a reference from someone who will not recommend you. I used to go back and forth on this but no longer. I will give a letter of recommendation to any and all students who ask me. If the best student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how great they were. If the worst student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how terrible they were.

How smart can this Rho Chi student be to ask for a recommendation from a preceptor that would give them a negative letter?

Idk about all that. If they were bad just say you can't do it. Why go through the trouble of writing a negative one?

 

[deleted727644]

This isn't true at all. There are entire pharmacy centric journals written entirely by pharmacists.

Can you send the link?

 

[deleted727644]

I don't want to repeat things that have already been said that I agree with (life sucks, it's not fair, these people shouldn't exist but they do, etc). But I'll say this to your point about the Rho Chi student: you need to have enough self awareness to not ask for a reference from someone who will not recommend you. I used to go back and forth on this but no longer. I will give a letter of recommendation to any and all students who ask me. If the best student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how great they were. If the worst student I've ever had asks me for one, I will write about how terrible they were.

How smart can this Rho Chi student be to ask for a recommendation from a preceptor that would give them a negative letter?

The preceptor was the one to actually ENCOURAGE This RHO chi student to apply to residency…

Just like you said a student needs to have self awareness…if a student asks preceptor if they can be added as reference then preceptor should also have the ethics and awareness to say say NO if they didn’t like the student. It goes both ways.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

The vast majority of people who work in NYC do not drive, they take the bus and subways or bike and have no sympathy for the plight of us car drivers, especially the drivers coming in from Long Island and Jersey and Westchester. A lot of drivers end up sucking it up and paying for parking. $20 a day for parking is a lot to ask for when you're a pharmacy student. There are metered parking spots but you have to go out and feed quarters every hour.

Never had a problem with lateness when it involved a place that had a free parking lot.

Every year we are seeing more and more driving lanes and parking spots being taken away and replaced with outdoor dining sheds, bike lanes, pedestrian plazas.

The problem I had with journal clubs was that I hate reading primary literature. To me, research means looking up on Uptodate, Lexicomp, Micromedex, Wikipedia.

I don't really see how any of this is the preceptor/site's responsibility to work around

 

[deleted727644]

Idk about all that. If they were bad just say you can't do it. Why go through the trouble of writing a negative one?

Yeah exactly save that for a Yelp review but to waste your time writing a negative letter and potentially ruin a student’s future? That too when that Preceptor only spend 6 weeks with the student? the ones in hospital setting get paid extra and the ones in community get extra help. Who’s the real winner here?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Can you send the link?

https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jpp

 

[deleted727644]

https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jpp

Most of these journals on there are evaluating how useful pharmacists can be in practice…
So which of this did you use to do a journal club on? Or would you use?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Most of these journals on there are evaluating how useful pharmacists can be in practice…
So which of this did you use to do a journal club on? Or would you use?

I did rotations like 15 years ago, I don't remember what I used. And there were several drug studies just on the page I linked to. The one about vanc dosing might be good.

 

[owlegrad]

What do you guys think about preceptor who gossip with a student about another classmate when they’re in the same rotation? the student competing with another classmate & the preceptor causing more enmity between the 2 students? and the student who kisses a** of the preceptor end up with higher grade than the other classmate?

That would be extremely unprofessional.

 

[BenJammin]

Idk about all that. If they were bad just say you can't do it. Why go through the trouble of writing a negative one?

Professional obligation.

 

[deleted727644]

Professional obligation.

Sounds more like fraud to me. Unless the student was dangerous like had history of sexual harassment/assault, bullying or other abusive behaviour, I see no reason to warn other programs about a bad student.

 

[owlegrad]

Sounds more like fraud to me. Unless the student was dangerous like had history of sexual harassment/assault, bullying or other abusive behaviour, I see no reason to warn other programs about a bad student.

It’s funny to me that you think one director should warn another director about a job applicant, something I doubt any HR dept would approve of, but think preceptors shouldn’t do the same thing about students.

Revisit this thread in 10 years and see if you still feel that way.

 

[deleted727644]

It’s funny to me that you think one director should warn another director about a job applicant, something I doubt any HR dept would approve of, but think preceptors shouldn’t do the same thing about students.

Revisit this thread in 10 years and see if you still feel that way.

A licensed professional working atleast a year is completely different than a student doing rotation 6 weeks. You can’t compare the 2. Students can grow a lot after rotations are done.

I’m just saying that I know cases where directors do actually reach out to previous director of the applicant for feedback. I know a director A who reached out to director B and director B said good things genuinely but when hired the applicant was getting complaints from the staff. Director A reached out to director B and gossiped about it. Things circulate like that easily. Although I’m not saying a licensed professional can’t change when trying to start over at another location because how they were in one location doesn’t mean they will be the same in another location as per my example above.

 

[Sparda29]

I don't really see how any of this is the preceptor/site's responsibility to work around

They should at least be able to reach out to the hospital parking authority to get the student free parking since it is offered to patients.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

I really don't get the point of your arguments. There are unfair preceptors out their just like there are unfair bosses. The difference is, you can give feedback to your ELP about each preceptor and rotation you have, and even challenge your performance with the school biased on your behalf. What have you done so far in response to your stories?

Good luck finding a job that allows monthly feedback of your boss/workplace.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

I think he means maybe they should have to wait a few years working as a pharmacist before becoming a preceptor.

Being a good pharmacist doesn't make one a competent preceptor.

I'm well aware that people get assigned students that have no desire to precept, but then that's on the site and school for not having a good development plan.

 

[owlegrad]

A licensed professional working atleast a year is completely different than a student doing rotation 6 weeks. You can’t compare the 2. Students can grow a lot after rotations are done.

I’m just saying that I know cases where directors do actually reach out to previous director of the applicant for feedback. I know a director A who reached out to director B and director B said good things genuinely but when hired the applicant was getting complaints from the staff. Director A reached out to director B and gossiped about it. Things circulate like that easily. Although I’m not saying a licensed professional can’t change when trying to start over at another location because how they were in one location doesn’t mean they will be the same in another location as per my example above.

What does growing after a rotation have to do with anything? No preceptor is capable of measuring that 😂

 

[deleted727644]

What does growing after a rotation have to do with anything? No preceptor is capable of measuring that 😂

You don’t need to measure it. You need to understand they’re still students who Didn’t even take the boards yet. Pharmacy isn’t like the other health care sectors where you get a license # before graduation.

 

[deleted727644]

I really don't get the point of your arguments. There are unfair preceptors out their just like there are unfair bosses. The difference is, you can give feedback to your ELP about each preceptor and rotation you have, and even challenge your performance with the school biased on your behalf. What have you done so far in response to your stories?

Good luck finding a job that allows monthly feedback of your boss/workplace.

I really don’t get the point of your comment. Unfair preceptors exist which is what the post is about and to raise awareness. You don’t want to hear stories of it, don’t come here then.

As for your comment on schools…schools needs to be aware these kind of preceptors exist and students should report them to the school and not fear burning bridges. If students don’t talk about it, how will people know? There are schools who don’t even advocate for the student even after making
complaints because Schools generally side with the preceptor.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

I really don’t get the point of your comment. Unfair preceptors exist which is what the post is about and to raise awareness. You don’t want to hear stories of it, don’t come here then.

As for your comment on schools…schools needs to be aware these kind of preceptors exist and students should report them to the school and not fear burning bridges. If students don’t talk about it, how will people know? There are schools who don’t even advocate for the student even after making
complaints because Schools generally side with the preceptor.

I've precepted for at least 4-5 schools and all other them have gone to bat for students that were in danger of failing or not meeting expectations. This is the entire point of your midpoint eval.

If you've personally experienced otherwise, you may need to self reflect on why...

 

[owlegrad]

You don’t need to measure it. You need to understand they’re still students who Didn’t even take the boards yet. Pharmacy isn’t like the other health care sectors where you get a license # before graduation.

So why even have grades at all then?

I am not saying preceptors should not be held accountable for being unprofessional. We absolutely should be. What I am trying to suggest to you is perhaps you are not seeing the full picture of whatever situation(s) you are referring to and that in the grand scheme of things the vast majority of students who fail rotations probably did something egregiously bad to earn it.

Side tangent, so many rotations amount to “show up and don’t make trouble” and that is a ridiculously low bar to clear for any halfway decently adjusted person. It googles my mind how some people fail certain rotations.

 

[deleted727644]

So why even have grades at all then?

I am not saying preceptors should not be held accountable for being unprofessional. We absolutely should be. What I am trying to suggest to you is perhaps you are not seeing the full picture of whatever situation(s) you are referring to and that in the grand scheme of things the vast majority of students who fail rotations probably did something egregiously bad to earn it.

Side tangent, so many rotations amount to “show up and don’t make trouble” and that is a ridiculously low bar to clear for any halfway decently adjusted person. It googles my mind how some people fail certain rotations.

So you can remember how the student’s performance was during the rotation?

I’m not talking about failing. I’m talking about unprofessionalism and unfairness. Tell me how any of the situations I’m mentioned above is fair? Those preceptors are SABOTAGING students and giving them bad grades without mentioning areas of improvement or encouraging them to apply to residencies then tricking them and writing bad rec letter. You all may justify it by saying wait till you deal with bad boss but atleast once you get licensed you can easily quit and work somewhere else. And as an employer you have more rights and HR takes you more seriously than schools do. But for a student? That bad grade is set in stone. That bad rec letter ruined the reputation of the RHO chi student from reapplying to residency

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

HR takes you more seriously than schools to

Lol

 

[owlegrad]

So you can remember how the student’s performance was during the rotation?

I’m not talking about failing. I’m talking about unprofessionalism and unfairness. Tell me how any of the situations I’m mentioned above is fair? Those preceptors are SABOTAGING students and giving them bad grades without mentioning areas of improvement or encouraging them to apply to residencies then tricking them and writing bad rec letter. You all may justify it by saying wait till you deal with bad boss but atleast once you get licensed you can easily quit and work somewhere else. And as an employer you have more rights and HR takes you more seriously than schools to. But for a student? That bad grade is set in stone. That bad rec letter ruined the reputation of the RHO chi student from reapplying to residency

Again you are almost certainly getting one extremely biased side of a story (unless it’s your story in which case we are the ones getting it). How does the student know the letter of recommendation was bad? Do you think any student who gets less than an A on a rotation EVER thinks it fair? “Fairness” is one of those concepts that most people grow out of on the playground and complaining about it just sounds like whining.

Having said that, if we take all your posts at face value, yes the preceptor(s?) you refer to are unprofessional and those situations are unfair. Out of curiosity why do you think a preceptor would encourage someone to apply to residency and then sabotage them?

 

[deleted727644]

Again you are almost certainly getting one extremely biased side of a story (unless it’s your story in which case we are the ones getting it). How does the student know the letter of recommendation was bad? Do you think any student who gets less than an A on a rotation EVER thinks it fair? “Fairness” is one of those concepts that most people grow out of on the playground and complaining about it just sounds like whining.

Having said that, if we take all your posts at face value, yes the preceptor(s?) you refer to are unprofessional and those situations are unfair. Out of curiosity why do you think a preceptor would encourage someone to apply to residency and then sabotage them?

Apparently the workers there was talking about it and student overhead.

To answer your question, Jealousy? Competition?racism? Discrimination? Malicious people exist out there. Why do YOU think a preceptor would do that? You clearly have more experience than me

 

[owlegrad]

Apparently the workers there was talking about it and student overhead.

To answer your question, Jealousy? Competition?racism? Discrimination? Malicious people exist out there. Why do YOU think a preceptor would do that? You clearly have more experience than me

I flat out don’t believe it happened. The students could have misheard or invented the story. The workers could have been gossiping about something they have no knowledge about or just speculating. There are so many possibilities besides taking every word at face value.

I could maybe believe your suggestions for simply writing a bad LOR but encouraging someone to apply just to sabotage them is borderline psychopathic behavior and I am very skeptical that it played out that way.