Preceptors: What do you dislike about your students?

[xiphoid2010]

As long as I am only working 40 hours or less a week I do not care when I go in or leave. Working 12 hr days means I only work 3 days a week. Works for me.

When I was a student, I got Target rotation that was on 12 hours shift. Me and another student double covered Mondays, then rotated every other week days, +1 weekend during that month.

I hate retail. But I was there every time on time with a fake smile and jump on everything needed to be done. You bet you ass I was secretly cursing and counting down the days. Got a great eval at the end and couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Folks, we all have personal preferences for rotations. But it's only a month of 6 weeks. Totally not into a rotation? Then consider it endurance training.

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[xiphoid2010]

I am guessing not knowing the major guidelines are a major pet peeve of preceptors right? I am sure if the preceptor ask you a question about therapy and it's in the guidelines then you are expected to know it right?

We were students too once, and can remember what most students knew at that point. Personally, I'm not expecting students to know much about guidelines because most are going for retail. But if you are headed for inpatient or is interested, then there will be some of expectation about knowing key points in the guidelines.

 

[Ackj]

We were students too once, and can remember what most students knew at that point. Personally, I'm not expecting students to know much about guidelines because most are going for retail. But if you are headed for inpatient or is interested, then there will be some of expectation about knowing key points in the guidelines.

This reminds me of something that could go into the other thread about annoying things from school. When professors say "it says so right in the guidelines!" as if you're an idiot for not reading the 200 page document that is updated annually, when we cover 2-3 disease states per week.

I agree that major points should be understood, but if you honestly think somebody who is not currently practicing in that specialty knows all the recommendations in those 200 pages, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[spacecowgirl]

My main thing about guidelines is to know which ones exist and where to find them. I don't expect you to know step 4 treatment for asthma, but I do expect that you should know the NHLBI is where you would find that. If I ask someone about finding the statin guidelines and get a blank stare...it doesn't bode well. I remember what feels like 5% of what I learned but I know how to find answers and quick. You don't have to know it; you have to know where to find it.

 

[Its Z]

Not so fast Z, I know some preceptors get paid (I've seen the checks), consequently that's their sole reason for precepting. One of my preceptors made as much money from being a preceptor as being a pharmacist. She was nice though, bought me lunch the last day at the cafeteria.

Is that unique? I don't know, I haven't discussed it with the folks here, frankly I don't care. However there are some markets where money exchanges hands and yes that influenced how much face-time I should get as a student.

Some mill schools use payments to get rotation sites. We are not one of those sites. We dont need money that way nor will I allow our preceptors from receiving payments. We also dont take students from new schools. We dont have room. And we dont use our students as a free labor. They spend mornings with medical residents(they demand pharmacy students....espcially since most pharm students are cute to hot) and afternoons working on different projects including antibiotic stewardship....med safety....etc.

 

[Dalteparin]

Agree 100% with not being disrespectful to the site or practice area. Some students come in with such a bad attitude. I get everyone does not want to be a retail pharmacist or a clinical pharmacist... It goes both ways. There is the "I don't care about retail because I want to do a residency" or the "I already have a job at CVS, so I don't care about hospital." There are a lot of things you can learn.

+1. I had one student tell me he thought my area of practice was "boring and easy." I wasn't so much offended by his rudeness as I was blown away by his foolishness. Really? You really think it's OK to go around saying things like that? Or are we on a new reality show called Provoke the Preceptor?

Laziness is another one I can't tolerate. I had one student who, when I asked him to look up questions, he copied and pasted his answers directly from the reference where he found it. Not acceptable, even if you do cite it properly. You need to be able to put these things in your own words and prove to me that you understand more than ctrl+C and ctrl+V.

I don't mind if students are late once in awhile, but have a good excuse or at least make one up! I had one student tell me she was late because it was "hard to get up in the morning." Um, no. At the time I commuted an hour each way to the job, so I was not amused.

And on the subject of getting paid... not sure what my hospital's arrangement is with the schools but I don't see a dime of the money we get (if we even get paid). I precept because I enjoy it, and because it was made clear when I interviewed for the job that precepting was an expectation, not an option.

 

[Sparda29]

Preceptors always found my sleep habits odd. I think they have forgotten that the lifestyle of a 24 year old male doesn't let you go to sleep at 930PM. All of my preceptors told me that they always got 8 hours of sleep and were usually in bed by 930PM, wtf? I'm usually asleep around 2-3AM, then wake up at 6-7AM. I don't find it hard to get up, I'll just be sleepy in the morning until the caffeine kicks in.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Some mill schools use payments to get rotation sites. We are not one of those sites. We dont need money that way nor will I allow our preceptors from receiving payments. We also dont take students from new schools. We dont have room. And we dont use our students as a free labor. They spend mornings with medical residents(they demand pharmacy students....espcially since most pharm students are cute to hot) and afternoons working on different projects including antibiotic stewardship....med safety....etc.

Pretty sure KUMoose was talking about preceptors from his school... which is not a diploma mill.

 

[SHC1984]

My main thing about guidelines is to know which ones exist and where to find them. I don't expect you to know step 4 treatment for asthma, but I do expect that you should know the NHLBI is where you would find that. If I ask someone about finding the statin guidelines and get a blank stare...it doesn't bode well. I remember what feels like 5% of what I learned but I know how to find answers and quick. You don't have to know it; you have to know where to find it.

Thanks. I know you already made a list of the important guidelines, but can you tell me again which ones are the most important ones that we need to know on rotations?

Do recommmend that I go ahead and print out all the important guidelines? Which ones should I def print out and take with me?

I know that is A LOT of paper...but I have printed everything out since P1 year...if you look at my bedroom you can see notes stack all the way up to my ceilings! hahaha....

 

[KUMoose]

Yea I admit I was honestly surprised at the payments... it left a bad taste in my mouth. @SCG at between 5 or 6 students a month when first years have rotations (4 IPPEs 1-2 APPEs) and 2 or 3 APPEs when first years aren't on rotation, it adds up quickly.


The story from the school was that they had to (sic) "grease the wheels" otherwise they wouldn't have enough sites for their students, let alone the school ~1hr down the road or the newer schools (2) in state that were coming online. And Z it's nice to know that my posts inspire you to think I'm from a diploma mill. *cough*

 

[Its Z]

I know u aint from a mill. Simply stating mills started this payment for rotations in my area. As far as some preceptors getting paid, there are shared employees where the salary is split between hospital and school. This is totally different. My hospital has no such affiliation with a school. we simply take students from 4 legacy schools in my area. No payments. If anything it costs us time money and effort to to precept. In return we expext the students learn their ass off.

 

[Ackj]

As far as some preceptors getting paid, there are shared employees where the salary is split between hospital and school.

We have a decent amount of off-campus faculty. They teach maybe 6-8 lectures and work the rest of the year at their site. Not sure how the salary works exactly. Now that there are a few schools in the area, there are faculty from each school in the department, so there could be a whole lot of IPPE and APPEs running around.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Are people really complaining about working 12-15hr days for 6 weeks? Really?

 

[StevePerry]

since there is a thread about annoying things professors do, I thought it might be helpful for us students to hear the most annoying things other students do.that way, we can refrain from doing them and learn from others' mistakes! So, please, can you preceptors share with us the annoying traits/behaviors of rotation students? Thanks in advance!


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My pet peave is when they don't comprehend that they will be my ***** for the next few weeks doing all the **** I don't feel like doing -- you know the natural order of things. And of course I enjoy screwing over the gunner types.

 

[StevePerry]

My main thing about guidelines is to know which ones exist and where to find them. I don't expect you to know step 4 treatment for asthma, but I do expect that you should know the NHLBI is where you would find that. If I ask someone about finding the statin guidelines and get a blank stare...it doesn't bode well. I remember what feels like 5% of what I learned but I know how to find answers and quick. You don't have to know it; you have to know where to find it.

This is good advice for students...

 

[rxlea]

My pet peave is when they don't comprehend that they will be my ***** for the next few weeks doing all the **** I don't feel like doing -- you know the natural order of things. And of course I enjoy screwing over the gunner types.

What's your definition of a gunner?

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[All4MyDaughter]

What's your definition of a gunner?

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Like porn, I know gunners when I see them.

 

[rxlea]

Like porn, I know gunners when I see them.

lol so gunners **** people (over)?

 

[SHC1984]

Are people really complaining about working 12-15hr days for 6 weeks? Really?

Like I say before. I rather work 12 hr shifts and work only 3 days a week than 8 hr shifts and work 5 days a week.

As long as I am working 40 or less hrs a week I am cool with it.

 

[Sparda29]

That's cute. Back when you still couldn't reach the cookie jar on the counter, I was stuck overseas in desert like environments working 15-16 hours a day, 7 days a week so that you can safely attend your pharmacy school.

Don't wanna turn this into a political thing but I'mretty sure I could have safely attended pharmacy school without you being overseas doing the bidding of some greedy senators and their oil company partners. You need to be on some Seroquel if you think that Iraq and Afghanistan were threats. Don't give me that stabilize the region and stabilize the world economy bull****.

OBL could have been killed/captured without a full scale invasion. All that is necessary is some decent intel from the spooks over at the CIA and the Navy Seals.

This is my thing about the 12-15 hour days. I still gotta work my paid job from 6PM-11PM.

 

[B Wong]

Don't eat all of the food the drug rep brought in.

I just had a huge scary flashback where I did this as a student

Granted the rep brought in a TON of food and there was still some left over/thrown out, but you just made me realize how bad I must have looked as a poor student living on a budget seeing free food for the first time.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I just had a huge scary flashback where I did this as a student

You've never seen a group of three large, male rotatees damn near take out an entire Chick-Fil-A tray single-handedly.

...'cause I have.

 

[KARM12]

What's your definition of a gunner?

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Competitive brown-noser who will go out of there way to to get an A...often times at anothers expense.

 

[rxlea]

Competitive brown-noser who will go out of there way to to get an A...often times at anothers expense.

I gave up on straight A's a long time ago

that's too bad that people fight tooth and nail for an A, especially when they try to bring others down to get ahead. I imagine it is hard for residency directors to see that during an interview where everyone is going to be saying what they want to hear. Am I right? Profs tend to figure it out because they see the students all the time. Plus, they know the same students who go up and argue for every little point on an exam

besides, who needs to brown nose when you forge genuine relationships with profs? Seems like a waste of energy to go to such great lengths...

 

[rxlea]

You've never seen a group of three large, male rotatees damn near take out an entire Chick-Fil-A tray single-handedly.

...'cause I have.

This reminds me of when my cousins would come by after a practice or game at the high school. my family would make all this food...they were like locusts. You had better get your tamales before they come by cuz, guess what! GONE.

 

[PharMed2016]

I gave up on straight A's a long time ago

that's too bad that people fight tooth and nail for an A, especially when they try to bring others down to get ahead. I imagine it is hard for residency directors to see that during an interview where everyone is going to be saying what they want to hear. Am I right? Profs tend to figure it out because they see the students all the time. Plus, they know the same students who go up and argue for every little point on an exam

besides, who needs to brown nose when you forge genuine relationships with profs? Seems like a waste of energy to go to such great lengths...

I like this post but I don't necessarily think its fair to say its always the gunners that argue every point. More often than not, its the people that are borderline that do so in my experience (I know its subjective).

As for preceptor and their dislikes. I'm obviously not a preceptor but I can tell usually what the preceptor is thinking. I've had the pleasure of being on two of my rotations where I was paired with another student who planned on going into retail and didn't care for hospital. I understand that but please show up on time especially if you live 5 minutes walking distance from the hospital instead of 50 minutes late with rounds beginning in 10 minutes.

I feel like I better stop before I write too much. It'll become a small editorial otherwise.

 

[Sparda29]

In retrospect, I probably should have gone and reviewed my exams with the professors. There were a lot of cases where students went back, found mistakes in grading and got their grades changed and the students who didn't go to review their exams were stuck with their grades. Could have meant the difference between a C and a B. Our school doesn't use the +/- system in grading.

90-100 = A
80-89 = B
70-79 = C
60-69 = D
<60 = F

 

[rxlea]

In retrospect, I probably should have gone and reviewed my exams with the professors. There were a lot of cases where students went back, found mistakes in grading and got their grades changed and the students who didn't go to review their exams were stuck with their grades. Could have meant the difference between a C and a B. Our school doesn't use the +/- system in grading.

90-100 = A
80-89 = B
70-79 = C
60-69 = D
<60 = F

Would you have even made it on time to the meeting with the professor anyway ?

 

[Sparda29]

Would you have even made it on time to the meeting with the professor anyway ?

Open door policy at the school. Most professors see students without setting appointments.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Sigh, I wish I could go back and apologize to my preceptors. I didn't mean to be a nincompoop, and I was a quick learner when I realized I was blundering. I doubt I was the worst student they ever had, but I wasn't the best either. I just really didn't have any experience or background in a professional environment. I look back on some of my blunders and cringe, but I honestly didn't know better. Not everyone comes from a family background where social niceties are taught. I hope you preceptors cut some slack to your students, at least take the time to explain to them when they are blundering. If they refuse to listen or learn, yeah downgrade them for sure. But take the time to explain why their behavior is socially inappropriate in a professional environment, because they honestly may not know.

 

[rxlea]

Sigh, I wish I could go back and apologize to my preceptors. I didn't mean to be a nincompoop, and I was a quick learner when I realized I was blundering. I doubt I was the worst student they ever had, but I wasn't the best either. I just really didn't have any experience or background in a professional environment. I look back on some of my blunders and cringe, but I honestly didn't know better. Not everyone comes from a family background where social niceties are taught. I hope you preceptors cut some slack to your students, at least take the time to explain to them when they are blundering. If they refuse to listen or learn, yeah downgrade them for sure. But take the time to explain why their behavior is socially inappropriate in a professional environment, because they honestly may not know.

I am just wondering if there should be more of an effort to teach these skills in school--how to interact with superiors, how to take constructive criticism, etc.In third year, we have a "prep for rotations" class so I am wondering if it is covered there. I should ask.

 

[BidingMyTime]

I am just wondering if there should be more of an effort to teach these skills in school--how to interact with superiors, how to take constructive criticism, etc.In third year, we have a "prep for rotations" class so I am wondering if it is covered there. I should ask.

That sounds like a good class & hopefully it will cover stuff like that (and not just a basic knowledge base....which as many preceptors have said, its not as important that you have stuff memorized, as that you can quickly access & understand it.)

 

[spacecowgirl]

Sigh, I wish I could go back and apologize to my preceptors. I didn't mean to be a nincompoop, and I was a quick learner when I realized I was blundering. I doubt I was the worst student they ever had, but I wasn't the best either. I just really didn't have any experience or background in a professional environment. I look back on some of my blunders and cringe, but I honestly didn't know better. Not everyone comes from a family background where social niceties are taught. I hope you preceptors cut some slack to your students, at least take the time to explain to them when they are blundering. If they refuse to listen or learn, yeah downgrade them for sure. But take the time to explain why their behavior is socially inappropriate in a professional environment, because they honestly may not know.

What kind of things do you mean? It's hard to know what people really should know and what you just think they should know. I want to know so I can help students. To me that is one of the hardest parts of teaching - not being sure of what is an appropriate level of knowledge at a certain point in a student's education. KWIM?

Things I think you should just know: don't interrupt, don't argue or critique the staff helping you (not just preceptors but the techs too), follow the dress code, don't make excuses.

 

[rxlea]

What kind of things do you mean? It's hard to know what people really should know and what you just think they should know. I want to know so I can help students. To me that is one of the hardest parts of teaching - not being sure of what is an appropriate level of knowledge at a certain point in a student's education. KWIM?

Things I think you should just know: don't interrupt, don't argue or critique the staff helping you (not just preceptors but the techs too), follow the dress code, don't make excuses.

I don't like when techs or pharmacists try to bring students into the drama at the site. I also didn't like it when certain pharmacists just acted like I was another tech when my preceptor wasn't there. that pharmacist acted like students didn't exist except to fill. But when the preceptor was there she faked being nice. How does a student bring something like that up without sounding like they are whining?

 

[Sparda29]

I don't like when techs or pharmacists try to bring students into the drama at the site. I also didn't like it when certain pharmacists just acted like I was another tech when my preceptor wasn't there. that pharmacist acted like students didn't exist except to fill. But when the preceptor was there she faked being nice. How does a student bring something like that up without sounding like they are whining?

This. The nursing home where I work is an IPPE and APE Geriatric Elective site at my school. I found out from a student who was on rotations there that the day shifters were talking **** about me and the other night shifters. They are union, we are non union. Non union workers don't get scrutinized by management and the VP of Quality Control. Day shifters are pissed about us getting to eat inside the pharmacy while we work as well as listening to music while we work.

 

[KUMoose]

This. The nursing home where I work is an IPPE and APE Geriatric Elective site at my school. I found out from a student who was on rotations there that the day shifters were talking **** about me and the other night shifters. They are union, we are non union. Non union workers don't get scrutinized by management and the VP of Quality Control. Day shifters are pissed about us getting to eat inside the pharmacy while we work as well as listening to music while we work.

So they are mad that you, in effect, get special privileges they they don't get and are held to a higher standard than a future pharmacist. Can't imagine why this would ruffle their feathers.

 

[kvl1027]

1) Don't ask me to borrow a pen
2) You don't need to know everything, but you do need to know how to find the answer quickly
3) STOP GUESSING!!!!!!! If you don't know it, you don't know it. This is a not a game of darts, just tap out, stop guessing, and see rule number 2.
4) Be on time

 

[KUMoose]

3) STOP GUESSING!!!!!!! If you don't know it, you don't know it. This is a not a game of darts, just tap out, stop guessing, and see rule number 2.

Virtually our entire education system disincentivises saying "I don't know..." In every form of schooling you're actually punished for saying this. That's the very first thing out of my mouth when I talked with students.

 

[rxlea]

Virtually our entire education system disincentivises saying "I don't know..." In every form of schooling you're actually punished for saying this. That's the very first thing out of my mouth when I talked with students.

We aren't supposed tosay "I don't know" in case studies. We are supposed to say"I will look it up"

 

[All4MyDaughter]

We aren't supposed tosay "I don't know" in case studies. We are supposed to say"I will look it up"

LOL, semantics. The point is to admit when you don't know and not guess!

 

[rxlea]

LOL, semantics. The point is to admit when you don't know and not guess!

One of our group's case study facilitator told me I need to work on saying things with confidence too. I have no problem saying I don't know, though. But the "I'll look it up" is a nice trick and it sounds better than"I don't know"

 

[BidingMyTime]

What kind of things do you mean? It's hard to know what people really should know and what you just think they should know. I want to know so I can help students. To me that is one of the hardest parts of teaching - not being sure of what is an appropriate level of knowledge at a certain point in a student's education. KWIM? Things I think you should just know: don't interrupt, don't argue or critique the staff helping you (not just preceptors but the techs too), follow the dress code, don't make excuses.

I would go with the assumption that if someone is being rude, not being professionally appropriate, that they probably don't know it. (if they continue after being told, then assume they are just rude.)

But all the stuff mentioned in this thread, even your list off stuff that you would assume students already knew. I would add going over, what is appropriate dress, general etiqutte, how & when to tip, avoiding or being real careful with humor since what is hilarious to one person may not be funny to anyone else (or may even be offensive), not doing something at the workplace without asking first (even if they see someone else doing it), not talking about people's salaries or how much you're paying the school for the rotation, not giving your work number out to all your friends, not carrying a cell phone at work or if needed for the job, not doing personal things on it.) Basically a professional life's skill seminar or two.

 

[njac]

yes and no.

my current student has a dismal knowledge base. it is painful. we can't have a dialogue because none of the questions get answered - I ask a question and it takes 15 minutes before they come back to me with an answer. not fun.

so I've started saying "for the love of god just guess and say the first thing that pops into your head so we can discuss the thought process and what is rightand/or wrong about it" because otherwise we would do zero discussion at all.

 

[pharm B]

yes and no.

my current student has a dismal knowledge base. it is painful. we can't have a dialogue because none of the questions get answered - I ask a question and it takes 15 minutes before they come back to me with an answer. not fun.

so I've started saying "for the love of god just guess and say the first thing that pops into your head so we can discuss the thought process and what is rightand/or wrong about it" because otherwise we would do zero discussion at all.

How best should a student prepare to do a rotation with you?

 

[rxlea]

How best should a student prepare to do a rotation with you?

we had students come through our institution who knew nothing. They didn't know basic cardiac meds or antibiotics. the pharmacists didn't expect then to know the chemo or the weird stuff but they were annoyed that they didn't even know that vanco covered MRSA or that lorazepamcomes IV.

 

[spacecowgirl]

But all the stuff mentioned in this thread, even your list off stuff that you would assume students already knew. I would add going over, what is appropriate dress, general etiqutte, how & when to tip, avoiding or being real careful with humor since what is hilarious to one person may not be funny to anyone else (or may even be offensive), not doing something at the workplace without asking first (even if they see someone else doing it), not talking about people's salaries or how much you're paying the school for the rotation, not giving your work number out to all your friends, not carrying a cell phone at work or if needed for the job, not doing personal things on it.) Basically a professional life's skill seminar or two.

Whoa. I don't think I should have to tell someone that is in the last year of a doctorate program any of that stuff.

 

[njac]

How best should a student prepare to do a rotation with you?

Know how to interpret basic labs. Increased SCr, BUN, and K? Renal dysfunction.

Patient home meds - this is top 200 stuff, why is patient on glipizide?

I don't expect every student to be a rockstar, but of we've already talked about extended infusion zosyn 3 times, I expect you to know how we dose it here. Ditto for vanco loading doses.

 

[Sparda29]

So they are mad that you, in effect, get special privileges they they don't get and are held to a higher standard than a future pharmacist. Can't imagine why this would ruffle their feathers.

There aren't enough people on hand during the night for someone to leave the pharmacy to go eat. One person stops, everything gets backed up. Not to mention, there are many times when I start the shift at 6PM, there are still labels from 2PM sitting around, as well as items that haven't been bagged.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Virtually our entire education system disincentivises saying "I don't know..." In every form of schooling you're actually punished for saying this. That's the very first thing out of my mouth when I talked with students.

I actually don't tell my student not to guess, just never on rounds.

You don't know, but tell me what you think it should be based on you understanding of the disease state or mechanism of action. Then I ask the student to look it up and explain the answer to me. This promotes understanding rather than just looking it up.

Either way the student will learn the right answer, the difference is that of able to plug and chug vs. deriving at an equation.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Whoa. I don't think I should have to tell someone that is in the last year of a doctorate program any of that stuff.

No you shouldn't have to tell them, but if nobody else has ever told them, you would be doing them a big favor to do so. If schools & families aren't teaching this stuff (and many aren't), where is the person going to learn this stuff? TV? They probably have no idea of what they don't know.