PAs/NPs attempting to "cancel culture" the AMA

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0ncogene said:
What I don't get is, why not just go to medical school if they want to play doctor so bad? It's never too late.
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Most of them (the ones really pushing for independence and being called doctor) probably can’t.
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0ncogene said:
What I don't get is, why not just go to medical school if they want to play doctor so bad? It's never too late.
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Because it's hard. Human nature is, by-and-large, to take the easiest path. The problem with that path is that it leads to self-loathing, which is unpleasant, so they look for an "out". The "out" can be sour grapes - dump on the people you wish you were so it hurts less not to be where you want to be. The "out" can also be to convince yourself that you're just as good, no, BETTER than the people you're envious of.

Anyone who threatens either of those fantasies is the enemy.
 
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0ncogene said:
What I don't get is, why not just go to medical school if they want to play doctor so bad? It's never too late.
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Yeah... It's like anyone can get 3.5+ c/sGPA, do well on the MCAT and pass step 1/2(cs/ck)/3. Remember your gen chem1 class with 300 students at the beginning and 150 ended up staying by the end of the semester.
 
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Splenda88 said:
Yeah... It's like anyone can get 3.5+ c/sGPA, do well on the MCAT and pass step 1/2(cs/ck)/3. Remember your gen chem1 class with 300 students at the beginning and 150 ended staying by the end of the semester.
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You forgot extracurriculars, volunteering, shadowing, letters of recommendation, 25+ secondary applications.... just to get in.
 
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IsleyOfTheNorth said:
It's a false dichotomy to say that people do or do not care about patient safety. (Not an attack of what you said, I'm just stating it.) It's a sliding scale. Do I care enough about patient safety to turn down a job that pays more but is more likely to result in harm to patients? How much money? How much harm? Everyone is on that sliding scale somewhere.

I'm not saying that patient should or should not be everyone's #1 concern - that's an argument for another time.

Having said that, let's pretend that someone wanted to be a primary care provider and patient safety was their #1 concern, what type of medical training would they seek out?
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Ding ding ding! I’m an M4 going into primary care. I was/am an RN and I didn’t want to be put into a position I wasn’t adequately educated and trained for.
DrNotaDr said:
Sure, but I have 10+ years in this system. I like the docs I work with. I like learning from them. I know many of them want to see me succeed personally and professionally. I like the organization as a whole. I guess I’d just tell you don’t hate the player, hate the game.
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We do hate the game. That’s the point.
DrNotaDr said:
You were taking about all the “harm” NP’s are doing to their patients. I soundly refuted that so you move the goal posts, as usual.
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Lol they did indeed reply with a harm to patients. You just didn’t understand it even after having it pointed out to you. Missing work, losing time, and spending money are all harms to that individual patient with the inappropriate referral you claimed not to harm. As well as clogging up the health care system as a whole with its finite resources, also harming the population in general.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
It’s super cringy. He’s very clearly trying to virtue signal in hopes that he’ll get noticed by some neurosurgery PDs and get an interview (he’s said in other posts that he’s worried about not matching). His handle also is like dr something, and he’s an MS1. Kind of fitting that he supports midlevels.
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Oh ****, there were two then. I saw a female MS1 doing it.
 
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sunshinefl said:
Lol they did indeed reply with a harm to patients. You just didn’t understand it even after having it pointed out to you. Missing work, losing time, and spending money are all harms to that individual patient with the inappropriate referral you claimed not to harm. As well as clogging up the health care system as a whole with its finite resources, also harming the population in general.
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What people think we argue with physician-led care, by citing "the data show mid levels cause more harm to the patient," is "PA's and NP's are actively trying to hurt the patient by stabbing them with a scalpel when they aren't looking. In fact, all nurses and PA's can f**k off because doctors can do all of the work they can do by themselves!" When, in reality, the argument is that NP's and PA's, when given unsupervised roles, will harm patients and the healthcare system by giving unnecessary tests, performing non-needed diagnostic procedures, and induce polypharmacy in patients. Quality of referrals is down and more people have to do the same/similar work than if a patient went to see a physician instead. I can go on with the amount of anecdotes I have of midlevels mismanaging the care of a plethora of family members throughout the years. And the mistakes they made vs. mistakes physicians make are not the same. The mistakes the midlevels made were very rudimentary in terms of the knowledge base one needs to accurately dx and treat.

Yes, there are anecdotes of how multiple physicians couldn't diagnose the patient correctly and subjected a patient to unnecessary testing. This is why I will rely on my healthcare team to help bring care to the patient. As a future resident (and future attending,) I will lean on my colleagues (nurses, PA's, RT's, attendings, senior residents, etc.) to help me become a leader in healthcare. The experience they bring to the table will (hopefully) train me into a very competent leader in healthcare. But the leadership role comes with a price in schooling, testing, and training. And the 500-1000 hours received from NP school does not cut it. As I've said before, I will not tell a nurse how to do his/her/their job. I'm not trained/training in the nursing model of healthcare. But when you have people playing doctor (for whatever reason that may be,) then everyone suffers. I'm sorry, but getting experience as a bedside nurse for years and years and years does not constitute a replacement for medical school.

I can't recommend the book "Patients at Risk" enough. I'm preaching to the choir with this comment, but this book succinctly argued every single topic this thread wants to talk about. Hell, it doesn't even bash nurses, PA's, CRNA's, and so on. It actually talks very highly of them.

Last note: I actually hate the sentiment pushed by SDN that NP's are people who "couldn't make it into medical school." There is a podcast by the authors of "Patients at Risk" as well; they brought on an NP from North Carolina who talks out against midlevel encroachment. She practiced for years in an ICU setting before going to Georgetown's NP program. It's a "brick and mortar" school with a huge reputation for training great nurses at all levels. One thing in that podcast that opened my eyes to this is when she said "I could have gone to medical school. I took the pre-med prerequisites and made competitive grades. But at age 40, I just couldn't dedicate my life like that. That's why I went to NP school instead. I wanted to have more-solid knowledge base to help treat my patients." Edit: the NP went on to discuss how, even with her reputable program, she and other students were not prepared to practice independently. The lack of standards really has her scared for future patients under the care of these future NP's. Even as the MODEL future NP that the AANP boasts is "what all NP's are (as a former bedside nurse with almost a decade of critical care bedside nursing before getting her DNP,)" she still didn't feel like she could practice by herself. She still needs to rely on physicians to treat the critical patients she works with every day.

This should show to us, med students and physicians, that nurses and NP's want to help patients. Edit: what I mean is that they have good intentions, however they are misled from the start about their role and how they are just as good as physicians. Medical school is way more than just "get good grades, volunteer for a couple hundred hours, and spend thousands of $$$ to apply." For many people, it's just not feasible. So the NP route is a "better option" due to the fact that they can work FT while doing the program. But, to avoid having a circular case, it just isn't the same. The lack of standards has gotten to the point where, and I quote the NP from the podcast, "physicians looking to hire NP's will not hire them if they went to certain programs. Because they know those programs are degree mills."
 
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FutureSurgical said:
This should show to us, med students and physicians, that nurses and NP's want to help patients.
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If the nurses and NPs pushing for independent practice wanted to really help patients, they wouldn’t be pushing for independent practice. Otherwise I completely agree with your post.
 
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The funniest thing to me is that these high-and-mighty attendings/PDs whatever clearly think people punch down when they criticize NP organization/education; you can tell from the really overly flowerly language (I couldn't do what they do, blah blah) they use. Maybe it'll take a job loss from an NP for them to realize they should stop doing propaganda on behalf of NPs/PAs, since they clearly don't know where they're at on the food chain. This is a shame since whether it directly affects their livelihood or not, the current system is plainly just unsafe for patients, and they're defending it.
 
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jambro said:
The funniest thing to me is that these high-and-mighty attendings/PDs whatever clearly think people punch down when they criticize NP organization/education; you can tell from the really overly flowerly language (I couldn't do what they do, blah blah) they use. Maybe it'll take a job loss from an NP for them to realize they should stop doing propaganda on behalf of NPs/PAs, since they clearly don't know where they're at on the food chain. This is a shame since whether it directly affects their livelihood or not, the current system is plainly just unsafe for patients, and they're defending it.
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They got theirs, and now midlevels are doing the work for them so they can sit back and forget how to even put in orders.
 
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Splenda88 said:
www.yahoo.com

Wall Street Journal writer sparks backlash for calling Jill Biden 'kiddo,' suggesting she drop 'Dr.' title

Celebrities, politicians and doctors rushed to defend the future First Lady.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Lol...
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Endless virtue signaling. Although I actually think it is dumb. She's not calling herself doctor in clinical setting or in any way implying she's a physician or knows anything about medicine. It's like if any other PhD or EdD or whatever uses the title in public. Pretentious yes, but not misleading.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Endless virtue signaling. Although I actually think it is dumb. She's not calling herself doctor in clinical setting or in any way implying she's a physician or knows anything about medicine. It's like if any other PhD or EdD or whatever uses the title in public. Pretentious yes, but not misleading.
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Dr. Ben Carson, leading HUD, is using his title. Is that pretentious too?
 
DrNotaDr said:
Dr. Ben Carson, leading HUD, is using his title. Is that pretentious too?
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He is?

9814BAE1-B10C-4515-9241-8AA6B0675094.jpeg
 
DrNotaDr said:
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I actually think it’s dumb no matter who does it. He should just have MD after his name or whatever. We should do what they did in England the Middle Ages when there were tons of ludicrous doctorates like there are today: just have everyone go by their name and degree.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
AAFP stepping up.

AAFP Advocacy Focus: Scope of Practice

“There is no equivalency between a physician and a nonphysician health professional.”
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Someone has to say it... There are too many pretenders in healthcare.

Everyone wants to be doctor but almost no one wants to go to med school. Online degree with 500 hrs shadowing does't make people doctors even if they call themselves so and walking around in the hospital with their white coat on.
 
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Splenda88 said:
Someone has to say it... There are too many pretenders in healthcare.

Everyone wants to be doctor but almost no one wants to go to med school. Online degree with 500 hrs shadowing does't make people doctors even if they call themselves so and walking around in the hospital with their white coat on.
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Oh thank god you guys are finally saying this. You’ve just been beating around the bush’s concerning your opinion on midlevels for so long. I’m relieved it’s all out in the open now.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
This has been their consistent position at least since I started med school 15 years ago and almost certainly before that.
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I assumed. Just nice that they’re saying something given the current fight. A lot of orgs are being very watered down.
 
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DrNotaDr said:
Which one of you created this Twitter account? This guy can’t be for real lol.
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His Twitter is full of posts supporting np led surgery, saying that DOs are better trained than MDs because they care for the whole person, etc. I want to believe he’s a troll, but given where we are in this country, I doubt he’s a troll.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
His Twitter is full of posts supporting np led surgery, saying that DOs are better trained than MDs because they care for the whole person, etc. I want to believe he’s a troll, but given where we are in this country, I doubt he’s a troll.
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Yeah I’d love to believe it’s a troll. But there’s already some delusional nut NP calling himself a “cathopathic physician” and a professional nursing society that says removing physician oversight is “the right thing to do”. It’s hard to appreciate the rational and competent NPs for what they do when I’m bombarded with this trash. It’s stuff like this that makes me perfectly happy to never train or work with one.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
His Twitter is full of posts supporting np led surgery, saying that DOs are better trained than MDs because they care for the whole person, etc. I want to believe he’s a troll, but given where we are in this country, I doubt he’s a troll.
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It’s just so SO over the top.
 
Ho0v-man said:
Yeah I’d love to believe it’s a troll. But there’s already some delusional nut NP calling himself a “cathopathic physician” and a professional nursing society that says removing physician oversight is “the right thing to do”. It’s hard to appreciate the rational and competent NPs for what they do when I’m bombarded with this trash. It’s stuff like this that makes me perfectly happy to never train or work with one.
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Yeah I think I might be heading to rads.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
So is saying you’re a cathopathic physician and that removing physician supervision of CRNAs is “the right thing to do.” But those things are real.
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He’s posting multiple times a day. He just doesn’t seem psychologically well. Depending on his state, calling himself a physician is actually a crime.
 
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sunshinefl said:
www.radiologybusiness.com

10 Things Radiologists Need to Know About Radiology Extenders

Medicare recently relaxed its rules on the supervision that non-physician radiology providers must have by radiologists for their respective practices to get reimbursed. In the wake of the change, these “midlevel providers” are likely to grow in importance as well as in numbers.
www.radiologybusiness.com www.radiologybusiness.com
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It's an interesting article but in my observations IRL this has applied mainly to PAs and NPs helping out in the IR department. IR docs doing real IR procedures in one room and the PA doing piccs/ports/paras/thoras in the other room so that the DR folks can just read studies if they want instead of getting interrupted by these procedures.

Slippery slope and all. There are a lot of interesting forces at play in radiology but at the end of the day an NP isn't reading temporal bone MR etc. They don't have the horsepower and there isn't an advantage to them reading studies.
 
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sunshinefl said:
www.radiologybusiness.com

10 Things Radiologists Need to Know About Radiology Extenders

Medicare recently relaxed its rules on the supervision that non-physician radiology providers must have by radiologists for their respective practices to get reimbursed. In the wake of the change, these “midlevel providers” are likely to grow in importance as well as in numbers.
www.radiologybusiness.com www.radiologybusiness.com
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I’m not really worried about DR. And that Penn paper got pulled fast. It was a hot pile of garbage.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I’m not really worried about DR. And that Penn paper got pulled fast. It was a hot pile of garbage.
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Every fields got its problems. Most fields one can insulate themselves from non-physician providers if they so choose. Exceptions being EM and anesthesia.
 
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Ho0v-man said:
Every fields got its problems. Most fields one can insulate themselves from non-physician providers if they so choose. Exceptions being EM and anesthesia.
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Yeah basically. Maybe some hospitalist or ccm jobs where you don’t have much choice. But from what I’ve read most of the time the midlevels in the ICU tend to be pretty good at sticking to note and order writing.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Yeah basically. Maybe some hospitalist or ccm jobs where you don’t have much choice. But from what I’ve read most of the time the midlevels in the ICU tend to be pretty good at sticking to note and order writing.
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You always have a choice. Just walk away.
 
www.yahoo.com

Jill Biden’s Doctorate Is Garbage Because Her Dissertation Is Garbage

You can tell someone is smarting from an inferiority complex when he insists on being addressed as “Dr.” on the basis of holding an academic doctorate rather than being a physician. Ph.D. holders who have genuine accomplishments don’t make you call them “Doctor,” which is why you never hear...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
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