PAs/NPs attempting to "cancel culture" the AMA

[Ho0v-man]

A bunch of pediatricians in Dallas just got canned. A company bought Children’s Health, closed two of the offices, and renamed it MD Kids Pediatrics. Those docs have been replaced by NPs.

But it’s okay. Because closing 2 offices and replacing the staff at the existing offices with less qualified “practitioners” really expands care to that underserved community.

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[Zen Arcade]

A bunch of pediatricians in Dallas just got canned. A company bought Children’s Health, closed two of the offices, and renamed it MD Kids Pediatrics. Those docs have been replaced by NPs.

But it’s okay. Because closing 2 offices and replacing the staff at the existing offices with less qualified “practitioners” really expands care to that underserved community.

This actually happened 2 years ago, but it still a scary occurrence that sets an unfortunate precedent for our health system.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Jill Biden’s Doctorate Is Garbage Because Her Dissertation Is Garbage

You can tell someone is smarting from an inferiority complex when he insists on being addressed as “Dr.” on the basis of holding an academic doctorate rather than being a physician. Ph.D. holders who have genuine accomplishments don’t make you call them “Doctor,” which is why you never hear...

www.yahoo.com

If a surgeon calls themselves doctor when in charge of HUD, let the First Lady be doctor First Lady. Who cares?

 

[Ho0v-man]

This actually happened 2 years ago, but it still a scary occurrence that sets an unfortunate precedent for our health system.

You’re right. Couldn’t find the article when I made that post. But did just now.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If a surgeon calls themselves doctor when in charge of HUD, let the First Lady be doctor First Lady. Who cares?

Well except he’s actually a physician. But also I agree. Who cares what someone does on Twitter.

 

[Lawpy]

A bunch of pediatricians in Dallas just got canned. A company bought Children’s Health, closed two of the offices, and renamed it MD Kids Pediatrics. Those docs have been replaced by NPs.

But it’s okay. Because closing 2 offices and replacing the staff at the existing offices with less qualified “practitioners” really expands care to that underserved community.

It's a failure of healthcare when corporate capitalism interferes and idiotically fires doctors in favor of cost cutting measures

 

[Splenda88]

If only America would also scrutinize these faux doctors in healthcare as well.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Well except he’s actually a physician. But also I agree. Who cares what someone does on Twitter.

Physician and doctor are different words with different meanings.

 

[underthesun]

Physician and doctor are different words with different meanings.

In your view are NPs physicians?

 

[DrNotaDr]

In your view are NPs physicians?

I’m a NP with a doctorate. I’m not a physician. In my occupation I go by my title, which is NP. Physicians don’t own the title doctor. The word doctor is derived from the Latin docco, which means to teach. So, technically, Dr. Jill Biden, as an educator, has more of a right to that title than a physician does.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m a NP with a doctorate. I’m not a physician. In my occupation I go by my title, which is NP. Physicians don’t own the title doctor. The word doctor is derived from the Latin docco, which means to teach. So, technically, Dr. Jill Biden, as an educator, has more of a right to that title than a physician does.

Yeah, except doctor was originally used only for theologians, lawyers, and doctors. So y’all appropriated it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Physician and doctor are different words with different meanings.

And doctor is highly associated with physicians (as it should be, since the title was only given to theologians, lawyers, and physicians for centuries). So much so that when someone says they are Dr. whatever, people will assume they are a physician.

 

[Wordead]

I’m a NP with a doctorate. I’m not a physician. In my occupation I go by my title, which is NP. Physicians don’t own the title doctor. The word doctor is derived from the Latin docco, which means to teach. So, technically, Dr. Jill Biden, as an educator, has more of a right to that title than a physician does.

The swastika originally meant good fortune so seems like a good argument

 

[DrNotaDr]

And doctor is highly associated with physicians (as it should be, since the title was only given to theologians, lawyers, and physicians for centuries). So much so that when someone says they are Dr. whatever, people will assume they are a physician.

The title doctor is highly associated with physicians, but in reality it’s a recognition of academic accomplishment, not a role. The general public needs re-education on what the title doctor means, with the title physician taking its traditional place, as the title for an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of disease.

 

[underthesun]

I’m a NP with a doctorate. I’m not a physician. In my occupation I go by my title, which is NP. Physicians don’t own the title doctor. The word doctor is derived from the Latin docco, which means to teach. So, technically, Dr. Jill Biden, as an educator, has more of a right to that title than a physician does.

Watching your mental gymnastics like

 

[DrNotaDr]

Watching your mental gymnastics like View attachment 325256

Funny. Although you may want to check your bias. There are more none physician doctors out there than there are physician ones.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The title doctor is highly associated with physicians, but in reality it’s a recognition of academic accomplishment, not a role. The general public needs re-education on what the title doctor means, with the title physician taking its traditional place, as the title for an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of disease.

If you want to go back to tradition, the title doctor would only apply to physicians, lawyers, and doctors of theology. It’s a relatively recent development that doctor is applied to other fields. So be careful what you wish for.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Keep it professional please. This doesn’t need to involve name calling or condescending insults. Disagree all you like and feel free to call people out on their BS if they post any, but do it in a professional way.

 

[RangerBob]

Why are we arguing that people with doctorates shouldn’t use the title doctor? It originally meant you were licensed to teach. The first doctors were church theologians.

Arguably many doctorates/PhDs are more work than a medical degree-we just need to complete four years of med school before we can use the title, whereas most PhDs take much longer.

I agree the title should only be used by physicians (and a few others, like podiatrists, dentists) in hospitals, but outside the hospital if you have a doctorate and want to go by that title, I think that’s fair game.

Edit: I meant to say dentists, not chiropractors

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Why are we arguing that people with doctorates shouldn’t use the title doctor? It originally meant you were licensed to teach. The first doctors were church theologians.

This is a common misconception. The term comes from the Latin for teaching, but the first professions granted the title were theologians, lawyers, and physicians.

Arguably many doctorates/PhDs are more work than a medical degree-we just need to complete four years of med school before we can use the title, whereas most PhDs take much longer.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that someone with a PhD shouldn’t be able to call themselves doctor if they want to. In fact the argument is they usually don’t in public because they don’t feel an inferiority complex.

People with an edd, dnp, and these other diploma mill doctorates are different. In fact, there is historical precedent against them. For a while in England, to combat the confusion and so many diploma mill doctorates, they required everyone to go by their name and degree so that people would know who had a real doctorate.

I agree the title should only be used by physicians (and a few others, like podiatrists, chiropractors) in hospitals, but outside the hospital if you have a doctorate and want to go by that title, I think that’s fair game.

Yeah I agree with you. Honestly who cares if someone on Twitter with a diploma mill doctor of fine arts wants to call himself doctor. The problem is really only when we have DNPs on Twitter using their account to post medical stuff and their name is dr. That is confusing to people.

 

[RangerBob]

This is a common misconception. The term comes from the Latin for teaching, but the first professions granted the title were theologians, lawyers, and physicians.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that someone with a PhD shouldn’t be able to call themselves doctor if they want to. In fact the argument is they usually don’t in public because they don’t feel an inferiority complex.

People with an edd, dnp, and these other diploma mill doctorates are different. In fact, there is historical precedent against them. For a while in England, to combat the confusion and so many diploma mill doctorates, they required everyone to go by their name and degree so that people would know who had a real doctorate.

Yeah I agree with you. Honestly who cares if someone on Twitter with a diploma mill doctor of fine arts wants to call himself doctor. The problem is really only when we have DNPs on Twitter using their account to post medical stuff and their name is dr. That is confusing to people.

I agree we’d be better off losing the title and just listing our degree afterwards. That’s what lawyers do here, despite the fact they were one of the first historical doctorates.

But the term itself originally referred to the Apostles and church fathers and others who taught/interpreted the Bible, making theologians are the first doctors. I guess it’s a silly technical point, but the title/license came before the degree.

The degree, as you mentioned, originated with theology, law, and medicine. And music was actually next I belive, but I’ve yet to meet a musician use the tittle doctor.

 

[Lawpy]

The swastika originally meant good fortune so seems like a good argument

It still does. The Nazis changed the symbol a bit. Cultural appropriations and abuses should be fought back no matter what

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree we’d be better off losing the title and just listing our degree afterwards. That’s what lawyers do here, despite the fact they were one of the first historical doctorates.

But the term itself originally referred to the Apostles and church fathers and others who taught/interpreted the Bible, making theologians are the first doctors. I guess it’s a silly technical point, but the title/license came before the degree.

The degree, as you mentioned, originated with theology, law, and medicine. And music was actually next I belive, but I’ve yet to meet a musician use the tittle doctor.

Yes, music was sometimes included as well. But yes, I think given the state of things where anyone can go get a “doctorate” we should just be going by degrees and not titles.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Why are we arguing that people with doctorates shouldn’t use the title doctor? It originally meant you were licensed to teach. The first doctors were church theologians.

Arguably many doctorates/PhDs are more work than a medical degree-we just need to complete four years of med school before we can use the title, whereas most PhDs take much longer.

I agree the title should only be used by physicians (and a few others, like podiatrists, chiropractors) in hospitals, but outside the hospital if you have a doctorate and want to go by that title, I think that’s fair game.

Bruh, chiropractors? No way.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Bruh, chiropractors? No way.

I completely missed that. Chiropractors are not physicians. Sorry. That is pseudoscience.

 

[RangerBob]

Bruh, chiropractors? No way.

My bad-I meant dentists since they do work in hospitals at times.

Though, there actually are some chiropractors attached to spine centers (real ones, with PM&R and neurosurgery) who eschew a lot of the pseudoscience stuff. Like like OMM, there is validity to some of their methods.

They’re a small minority. But they’re the only chiropractors I would ever see or refer a family member to.

But yes, not doctors in hospital setting. I’m sure they use the title in their clinics though.

 

[DrNotaDr]

This is a common misconception. The term comes from the Latin for teaching, but the first professions granted the title were theologians, lawyers, and physicians.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that someone with a PhD shouldn’t be able to call themselves doctor if they want to. In fact the argument is they usually don’t in public because they don’t feel an inferiority complex.

People with an edd, dnp, and these other diploma mill doctorates are different. In fact, there is historical precedent against them. For a while in England, to combat the confusion and so many diploma mill doctorates, they required everyone to go by their name and degree so that people would know who had a real doctorate.

Yeah I agree with you. Honestly who cares if someone on Twitter with a diploma mill doctor of fine arts wants to call himself doctor. The problem is really only when we have DNPs on Twitter using their account to post medical stuff and their name is dr. That is confusing to people.

DNP’s thesis at solid R1 universities are held to a high standard, and I know people who have failed them. Your opinion on the DNP is pointless. If I want to use my earned title of Dr. in an academic or social setting I will do so. I’ve never used the title once, I even tell my students not to use it, but if someone is telling me I didn’t earn something that I earned, I’m going to use it just for spite at that point.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

DNP’s thesis at solid R1 universities are held to a high standard, and I know people who have failed them. Your opinion on the DNP is pointless. If I want to use my earned title of Dr. in an academic or social setting I will do so. I’ve never used the title once, I even tell my students not to use it, but if someone is telling me I didn’t earn something that I earned, I’m going to use it just for spite at that point.

The vast majority of DNP degrees are a joke and they are hurting the reputation of your degree.

 

[Lawpy]

Prediction: NPs are going to saturate their market and end up in a worse disaster than radonc

 

[DrNotaDr]

The vast majority of DNP degrees are a joke and they are hurting the reputation of your degree.

You may be right. I can only speak to my own education.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You may be right. I can only speak to my own education.

Yeah. Most of them are a joke meant to just give NPs a doctor title. They would mean a lot more if they were standardized and all required legitimate scholarship and thesis defense. If you look at what kind of publications come out of these programs, you’d be embarrassed.

 

[underthesun]

DNP’s thesis at solid R1 universities are held to a high standard, and I know people who have failed them. Your opinion on the DNP is pointless. If I want to use my earned title of Dr. in an academic or social setting I will do so. I’ve never used the title once, I even tell my students not to use it, but if someone is telling me I didn’t earn something that I earned, I’m going to use it just for spite at that point.

Go ahead and use your "earned title" to impress people all you want, just know that I will have zero respect for it as an ACTUAL doctor and clinician.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Go ahead and use your "earned title" to impress people all you want, just know that I will have zero respect for it as an ACTUAL doctor and clinician.

Neat. Still a doctor here though. Your angst gives me strength. I’m starting to understand Dr. Beach’s posts.

 

[Lawpy]

I never address NPs or PAs (even if they have a doctorate) as a doctor. I always call them by their first name. Heck i usually call residents by their first names and they don't mind. This Dr. obsession on part of NPs is disturbing

 

[Deltasidearm]

DNP’s thesis at solid R1 universities are held to a high standard, and I know people who have failed them. Your opinion on the DNP is pointless. If I want to use my earned title of Dr. in an academic or social setting I will do so. I’ve never used the title once, I even tell my students not to use it, but if someone is telling me I didn’t earn something that I earned, I’m going to use it just for spite at that point.

By all means, use the title you have been awarded through your hard work. Whether that title means something at all (read: how rigorous and prestigous the program is) is up to your employer and colleagues to decide, and anyone who legitimately argues that a DNP has no right to be addressed doctor in the right context are the same misinformed people who cannot accept high school marching band as a sport and can safely be ignored.

However, for better or worse, the use of a title to deliberately mislead the public--whether with good intentions or even legally--by misrepresenting as a physician is ethically outrageous and, in many states and most clinical settings, not allowed. Contextually, the public associates the term outside of an educational setting as a physician and it should not be used if it could misrepresent your profession.

Personally, I don't even want anyone to call me doctor outside of a clinical setting anyway. That is just full of cringe.

 

[Wordead]

It still does. The Nazis changed the symbol a bit. Cultural appropriations and abuses should be fought back no matter what

Please send me a link to any of your efforts to reclaim the swastika.

Super excited to see that.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

DNP’s thesis at solid R1 universities are held to a high standard, and I know people who have failed them. Your opinion on the DNP is pointless. If I want to use my earned title of Dr. in an academic or social setting I will do so. I’ve never used the title once, I even tell my students not to use it, but if someone is telling me I didn’t earn something that I earned, I’m going to use it just for spite at that point.

Why have you never used the title if you argue that it is within the right of DNPs to use it and that you earned that recognition?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Why have you never used the title if you argue that it is within the right of DNPs to use it and that you earned that recognition?

Believing that it’s okay for someone else to do something you choose not to do is not logically unsound.

 

[Lawpy]

Please send me a link to any of your efforts to reclaim the swastika.

Super excited to see that.

In another thread. I just wanted to point out the meaning didn't change, and the Nazi appropriation is actually part of a much bigger problem. This thread isn't the right one for this discussion though

 

[Wordead]

In another thread. I just wanted to point out the meaning didn't change, and the Nazi appropriation is actually part of a much bigger problem. This thread isn't the right one for this discussion though

I'd say it is appropriate. Meanings change with time. The swastika is not ever going to go back to its roots, or at least not anytime within the next 100 years. It's indelibly associated with Nazis. In the same way, when someone asks for a doctor they're talking about physicians. Looking at semantics to say hey I can tell a layperson that I'm a doctor is being willfully ignorant about how that is going to be interpreted. I don't really care if they do, personally - just as every nutritionist/NP/speech pathologist/janitor wears a white coat so does everyone try to co-opt legitimacy by pretending to be a physician. It's just one more thing. It's just humorous that they pretend to not know they're trying to present themselves as equivalent by muddying the waters.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'd say it is appropriate. Meanings change with time. The swastika is not ever going to go back to its roots, or at least not anytime within the next 100 years. It's indelibly associated with Nazis. In the same way, when someone asks for a doctor they're talking about physicians. Looking at semantics to say hey I can tell a layperson that I'm a doctor is being willfully ignorant about how that is going to be interpreted. I don't really care if they do, personally - just as every nutritionist/NP/speech pathologist/janitor wears a white coat so does everyone try to co-opt legitimacy by pretending to be a physician. It's just one more thing. It's just humorous that they pretend to not know they're trying to present themselves as equivalent by muddying the waters.

lol yeah my sister has a phd in clinical psychology and hates when people call her doctor specifically because the association between physicians and doctor is so strong. It doesn’t really matter if technically any academic doctorate can use the title. People assume anyone calling themselves a doctor is a physician unless told otherwise. You never have to clarify that you’re a physician when you call yourself doctor. Only the other way around.

My sister calls herself a phony doctor, a term I believe @Goro has also used.

 

[Lawpy]

I'd say it is appropriate. Meanings change with time. The swastika is not ever going to go back to its roots, or at least not anytime within the next 100 years. It's indelibly associated with Nazis. In the same way, when someone asks for a doctor they're talking about physicians. Looking at semantics to say hey I can tell a layperson that I'm a doctor is being willfully ignorant about how that is going to be interpreted. I don't really care if they do, personally - just as every nutritionist/NP/speech pathologist/janitor wears a white coat so does everyone try to co-opt legitimacy by pretending to be a physician. It's just one more thing. It's just humorous that they pretend to not know they're trying to present themselves as equivalent by muddying the waters.

Idk i'm optimistic meanings can change with better cultural understanding. And by appropriation i don't mean it's actually appropriate. I'm talking about the Nazis stealing cultural symbols and turning into a fascist and genocidal hate symbol. Just like how a lot of museums illegally store cultural collections and artifacts that were stolen by imperialists. It's a massive ongoing problem that needs to be addressed and resolved.

The meaning of doctor has expanded over the decades and honestly i'm just using it to refer only to physicians, dentists, podiatrists in clinical settings and to veterinarians in animal health settings. PhDs are doctors in academic settings but i'll never address a DNP as a Dr.

 

[underthesun]

Neat. Still a doctor here though. Your angst gives me strength. I’m starting to understand Dr. Beach’s posts.

Sure, you're a "doctor". But we all know you aren't a DOCTOR. You aren't the person I want to see when I'm having an MI on a plane.

I'm fine with people throwing around their titles in all other fields, because there isn't any confusion about who they are or what they do. The DNP is deliberately used by many (see twitter) to cause confusion about who is a "doctor" and who is a DOCTOR. That is the heart of the issue. I'm sure you're fine at doing your NP job under a physician's supervision but I'm sick of this "LOOK MA, I'M A DOCTOR!" crap when people graduate from an NP school where the only admission requirements are a pulse and tuition check.

You can strain against the system and obfuscate the issues all you want, but NPs have less medical knowledge and their education and training are inferior (because the entire educational structure is inferior). There are plenty of smart NPs who could (and do) go to medical school. Why don't you just do that and put the issue to bed? There are a lot of people around here that would be happy to point you in the right direction.

"Dr. Beach" is a troll account, you know that right? God help us if any real humans think like that

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"Dr. Beach" is a troll account, you know that right? God help us if any real humans think like that

There is a guy who calls himself a cathopathic physician. The AANA changed their name to nurse anesthesiologists and just released a PR campaign saying removing physician supervision is the right thing to do. The PAs want to be called “clinical medical practitioners” or some crap. Nurses in the UK are going to be doing surgery unsupervised.

This guy is not nearly over the top enough for me to think he’s a troll account.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Sure, you're a "doctor". But we all know you aren't a DOCTOR. You aren't the person I want to see when I'm having an MI on a plane.

I'm fine with people throwing around their titles in all other fields, because there isn't any confusion about who they are or what they do. The DNP is deliberately used by many (see twitter) to cause confusion about who is a "doctor" and who is a DOCTOR. That is the heart of the issue. I'm sure you're fine at doing your NP job under a physician's supervision but I'm sick of this "LOOK MA, I'M A DOCTOR!" crap when people graduate from an NP school where the only admission requirements are a pulse and tuition check.

You can strain against the system and obfuscate the issues all you want, but NPs have less medical knowledge and their education and training are inferior (because the entire educational structure is inferior). There are plenty of smart NPs who could (and do) go to medical school. Why don't you just do that and put the issue to bed? There are a lot of people around here that would be happy to point you in the right direction.

"Dr. Beach" is a troll account, you know that right? God help us if any real humans think like that

I’m not straining against anything. I correct my patients a dozen times a day when they call me doctor, reminding them I’m a NP. However if someone tells me I haven’t earned the title I’ve earned but choose not to use, I’m still going to remind you I’m a doctor in academic or social settings anytime I want to called one, and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. If you’d ever correct me in a non medical environment you’d be asking for an argument, because you aren’t the arbitrator of my educational achievements, and really no one cares what you think.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Believing that it’s okay for someone else to do something you choose not to do is not logically unsound.

True, but I am curious why the user has drawn that line in the sand for themselves

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

True, but I am curious why the user has drawn that line in the sand for themselves

I suspect they feel it silly or pretentious to introduce yourself as doctor in a social setting lol. I certainly won’t, even as an MD.

 

[FunkyFrog994]

I’m not straining against anything. I correct my patients a dozen times a day when they call me doctor, reminding them I’m a NP. However if someone tells me I haven’t earned the title I’ve earned but choose not to use, I’m still going to remind you I’m a doctor in academic or social settings anytime I want to called one, and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. If you’d ever correct me in a non medical environment you’d be asking for an argument, because you aren’t the arbitrator of my educational achievements, and really no one cares what you think.

I really only use the title Doctor for PhDs in the hard sciences (Bio, chem, physics, math, etc.) and MDs/DOs. Furthermore I only use it in an academic or medical setting. If you feel the need to be called Dr. Nurse in a social setting you're an a** hole. In terms of an academic setting... sorry kiddo but I don't think you've earned that right either.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I really only use the title Doctor for PhDs in the hard sciences (Bio, chem, physics, math, etc.) and MDs/DOs. Furthermore I only use it in an academic or medical setting. If you feel the need to be called Dr. Nurse in a social setting you're a** hole. In terms of an academic setting... sorry kiddo but I don't think you've earned that right either.

There’s no need to be condescending. You easily could have said all of that without the condescending “kiddo” thrown in at the end. I get it was probably a reference to the article, but it’s still belittling.

 

[DrNotaDr]

I really only use the title Doctor for PhDs in the hard sciences (Bio, chem, physics, math, etc.) and MDs/DOs. Furthermore I only use it in an academic or medical setting. If you feel the need to be called Dr. Nurse in a social setting you're an a** hole. In terms of an academic setting... sorry kiddo but I don't think you've earned that right either.

Great opinion. No one in the real world cares what you think. Ive taught at the collegiate level. We are called doctors there. I’m still a doctor. I’ll use it anytime outside of the hospital that I want to.