Nurses at it again...

[DrNotaDr]

Have you read the thread? There are like two people saying nurses don’t belong on the task force, and literally everyone else disagreeing with that and saying nurses are a valuable member of the team and have input.

The posts you claim are bashing nurses are referring to their lobby (which has questionable goals) and the difficulty of nursing school (which again, saying nursing school is easier than med school is not a TOS violation).

So it would seem that the vast majority of people in this thread are actually supporting nurses being included on the task force and being a critical member of the healthcare team.

If you don’t like what a user is saying, feel free to ignore them. You can also ignore threads that you don’t want to see. Also keep in mind that you are not privy to all moderator actions.

That’s fine, I may do all or some of those suggestions, but this thread has been RN bashing since the very first post with a OP who constantly repeats the same behavior. It’s against the TOS whether you moderate it or not is up to you.

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That’s fine, I may do all or some of those suggestions, but this thread has been RN bashing since the very first post with a OP who constantly repeats the same behavior. It’s against the TOS whether you moderate it or not is up to you.

Again. Literally read the thread. Every post on the first page except for the OP’s was supporting nurses being included and talking about how valuable they are. I suggest you either ignore the OP and continue your contribution on how nurses hold the trust of the nation and are valued members on the front lines or ignore the thread completely.

Continued derailing of a thread is a TOS violation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The thread is getting off topic. If you want to discuss nursing education, limit it to whether or not you feel it prepares them to be on the task force. Discussing nursing as a profession is fine as long as it is related to how it informs their input into treating COVID and tackling it nationally.

I will say this one more time. Comparing their education to physicians is not an insult. But posts that state nurses are lesser because their education is different will not be tolerated.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Again. Literally read the thread. Every post on the first page except for the OP’s was supporting nurses being included and talking about how valuable they are. I suggest you either ignore the OP and continue your contribution on how nurses hold the trust of the nation and are valued members on the front lines or ignore the thread completely.

Continued derailing of a thread is a TOS violation.

Yes sir. Thanks for the threat at the end.

 

[GoSpursGo]

RN bashing is against TOS of SDN. It’s not “extremely easy” to become a RN. The failure rate of RN school is fairly high.

I’d just like to point out that another admin here has already noted the OP is unnecessarily antagonists, and this entire thread is basically RN bashing. It doesn’t look good for your profession and it’s against TOS, but feel free to let it continue reflect poorly on these forums and the docs on here who want to have good relationships with the largest profession in healthcare.

Not that @Matthew9Thirtyfive needs my backup, but to be clear saying that RN school is easy is not a TOS violation. It's also not RN bashing, because it is possible for it to be simultaneously true that 1) RN school is easy relative to med school, and 2) RNs are an essential part of the medical team and should be included in the task force.

RN bashing isn't against the TOS, per se, though it's likely to be inflammatory or unprofessional, which would be a TOS violation. The majority of the posts I've seen would not constitute RN bashing, for the reasons listed above.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Not that @Matthew9Thirtyfive needs my backup, but to be clear saying that RN school is easy is not a TOS violation. It's also not RN bashing, because it is possible for it to be simultaneously true that 1) RN school is easy relative to med school, and 2) RNs are an essential part of the medical team and should be included in the task force.

RN bashing isn't against the TOS, per se, though it's likely to be inflammatory or unprofessional, which would be a TOS violation. The majority of the posts I've seen would not constitute RN bashing, for the reasons listed above.

I’ll respect the admins of course, but I won’t stop defending my profession from the usual repeat offenders.

 

[WheezyBaby]

One would think such enlightened and capable medical students would have the capacity to introspect on the validity of their perspective when multiple people with dramatically more experience offer a differing opinion. But here we are

 

[Ganon]

Whooo boy.

When discussing "nursing school" you've gotta' first define what you're even talking about. There are LPNs, Diploma RNs, ADN RNs, BSN RNs and MSN RNs who all practice regular bedside care across a wide variety of settings. If you're planning on owning your own office someday it's not a bad idea to know the different flavors and what their training entails/what their scope of practice would be for you in your clinic. I pity the heme/onc doc who hires the wrong type of nurse for her infusion clinic and finds that they can't infuse chemo or something.

Diploma nurse: Earned essentially through on-the-job training. This isn't a college degree but used to be a popular path to licensure as a nurse. These programs are/were usually associated with a specific hospital vs. a university.

Academics denigrate this method of training, but I've worked with diploma nurses and they are often some of the best... Imagine if all of medical school was residency... You'd hit the ground running but miss a lot of the "why." That's much less of a problem in nursing.

LPNs: Typically an AS degree now, they hold separate licensure from RN and have a slightly different scope of practice. This field of study is often available at community colleges and tech schools, which really helps make it more attainable for more people. These nurses dominate the fields of LTC, office nursing, and have a lot of nurses in home health. Many hospital systems use them for bedside hospital care as well, often teamed up with RNs with complementary scopes of practice.

LPNs are great, and are usually masters of juggling a million things.

RN: RN is the licensure, and it's typically earned through either an ASN or BSN program. This is the most common group you'll see in hospitals. The ASN degree is often earned in a community college setting, but there are universities that offer it. There has been a nationwide push for all nurses to be BSN-equipped, but so far only 57% of nurses are so trained. It is possible to have other degrees or levels of practice and retain the basic RN license.

MSN/PhD/DNP/Etc: Various degrees for various needs. Not all master's-prepared or doctorally-prepared nurses are nurse practitioners, with many of them working in nurse education, clinical nurse specialties, and even bedside care or practice management. There is a push for all APRN programs to become DNP programs, and last I knew all programs will have shifted by 2025.

Difficulty:
The following is only *my* opinion. My background is having two of the above degrees, current RN practice, and having done a fair bit of NP school from multiple universities helping my coworkers who chose that route. I am also a 3rd year MD student.

I've had plenty of people in med school ask me how the difficulty compares to nursing school. A lot of this is because they have nursing student friends who try to flex on them how difficult nursing school is. My assumption is that they are meaning MD vs. BSN, but as noted above you really can't generalize. The truth is, you have to take a step back and realize you're comparing something that can be a diploma or Associate's degree to a difficult doctorate. (I don't know how MD school compares to other fields, but I imagine it's in the top half of difficulty.)
I think that's a pretty stupid comparison, and it is certainly true that the complexity of the first two years of medical school goes much deeper than nursing school, no matter the level.
That being said, the actual lifestyle of nursing school can be just as grueling as the first two years of medical school. I certainly felt like I had similar amounts of free time. My *stress* level was higher in medical school for that period, because the truth is that the stakes are much, much higher. Med school is way more expensive, and missing a year of RN salary because of failing a class is minor compared to missing a year of physician's salary because of failing a class. It's just a completely different scale.

As far as the physical rigor of the programs, I can only speak as an M3 who has done 1/2 of my clerkships. I can easily say that the sheer amount of time I've spent in the hospital during my M3 year dwarfs a lot of my nursing school experience. The physical demands of nursing school are certainly higher, but I feel like that's expected in a blue collar vs. white collar job.

Why would we care about a nurse's opinion on a COVID task force?
Nurses often run task forces in hospitals. Clinical nurse specialists are often the ones who train physicians on new policies, equipment, or techniques that a facility wants to adopt. It wouldn't be some shocking new role for a nurse to sit at the table. Nurses have insight that other disciplines simply cannot comprehend. There is a visceral aspect of actually doing the work and giving the drugs and watching how patients change... It's valuable input sometimes.

One example: The nurse at the table warns the team that IVF manufacturers in India are shutting down from COVID, and that is going to cause a crisis. The physician at the table might say "Massive fluid volume resuscitation is not part of COVID care, so we can do just fine with fewer IV fluids." The nurse at the table might tell him that Remdesivir infusions require ten times the normal amount of saline flush post infusion, and so running low on saline could impact more than just IV infusions of it.

I'm not arguing that I believe a nurse is *necessary* on the board. I'm not qualified to make that call at all. I'm just saying that it isn't so shocking that a nurse could have valuable input, as only nurses are experts in the practice of nursing. Medical students have this belief that they know everything that a nurse does, but that's just not true. The stuff nurses know is usually stuff that doctors don't need to know, but it might be stuff that is vital to the care of the community.

You all might be too young to remember, but a nurse has served as the US surgeon general.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You all might be too young to remember, but a nurse has served as the US surgeon general.

And whether that was appropriate is a whole separate discussion.

To another point (about MD being in the top half of difficulty for doctorates), I would say that might be true. PhD programs are generally easier to get into but harder to finish. I don’t know how hard a PhD in biology is, but I did my bachelors in math, and my upper division courses on complex analysis and abstract algebra were way harder than anything in med school, and that was at the undergrad level.

The whole comparison of which is harder is stupid, I agree. I feel like no other field tries to flex on each other like that. I never saw paralegals flexing on law students about their school being harder.

 

[DrNotaDr]

And whether that was appropriate is a whole separate discussion.

To another point (about MD being in the top half of difficulty for doctorates), I would say that might be true. PhD programs are generally easier to get into but harder to finish. I don’t know how hard a PhD in biology is, but I did my bachelors in math, and my upper division courses on complex analysis and abstract algebra were way harder than anything in med school, and that was at the undergrad level.

The whole comparison of which is harder is stupid, I agree. I feel like no other field tries to flex on each other like that. I never saw paralegals flexing on law students about their school being harder.

I’ve never seen a RN flex on a med student about their school being harder either. Never even heard of one who did.

 

[Splenda88]

One of my acquaintances who is a NP said to me she learned in 2 yrs what I learned in 4 years... NP vs MD .

 

[DrNotaDr]

One of my acquaintances who is a NP said to me she learned in 2 yrs what I learned in 4 years... NP vs MD .

I’m sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’ve never seen a RN flex on a med student about their school being harder either. Never even heard of one who did.

It happens all the time. I also see med students and premeds flexing the opposite way.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m sure.

Are you really going to act like no one says this? This is such a common trope said by NPs and PAs.

 

[Splenda88]

Are you really going to act like no one says this? This is such a common trope said by NPs and PAs.

That poster is clueless...

He/she should go to allnurses(dot)com.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Are you really going to act like no one says this? This is such a common trope said by NPs and PAs.

Been in healthcare 20 years. Never heard it, I may take your word for it that you have but not the OP with his posting history.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Been in healthcare 20 years. Never heard it, I may take your word for it that you have but not the OP with his posting history.

That’s crazy. It’s literally part of their propaganda for independent practice. It’s all over the PA message boards and their subreddit. I’ve heard it in person from PAs and PA students so many times that I almost believed it until about a year before I started med school.

I have heard fewer NPs say that, but as a group, they are constantly claiming they are equivalent to physicians even right out of school.

 

[DrNotaDr]

That’s crazy. It’s literally part of their propaganda for independent practice. It’s all over the PA message boards and their subreddit. I’ve heard it in person from PAs and PA students so many times that I almost believed it until about a year before I started med school.

I have heard fewer NPs say that, but as a group, they are constantly claiming they are equivalent to physicians even right out of school.

I’ve heard PA’s say word for word “We do medical school but we do it in two years” but I’ve never heard an NP say something like that. I’ve heard an NP say they are as good as a doctor, but I’ve never heard one say their education was the same or better.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’ve heard PA’s say word for word “We do medical school but we do it in two years” but I’ve never heard an NP say something like that. I’ve heard an NP say they are as good as a doctor, but I’ve never heard one say their education was the same or better.

Like I said, I haven’t heard NPs say that their school is med school in 2 years. That’s a PA thing. But I have heard plenty of NPs say they’re equivalent and that NP school prepares them as well as medical school.

 

[DrNotaDr]

Like I said, I haven’t heard NPs say that their school is med school in 2 years. That’s a PA thing. But I have heard plenty of NPs say they’re equivalent and that NP school prepares them as well as medical school.

I concur. I was responding to the OP’s purposefully antagonizing comment, not yours. I think you’re just giving your honest opinion.

 

[NicMouse64]

Appreciate all of the good nurses out there especially considering that patient care would literally be impossible without them. I think a nurse should certainly be included on the task force. however, I have a couple of points that I've seen since being on the wards.

The comments made by nursing that medical students learn so much from nursing and that we learn how to manage patients due to their knowledge is hugely overblown. I've learned a few useful things from a nurse, but really not much so far. Maybe that will change intern year. Idk. You can be a competent and well-performing medical student without ever consulting to a nurse. I was surprised by how little face to face communication was done between nursing and medicine in the hospital. They are two separate teams that pretty much complete separate tasks and act more or less independent from eachother. I've barely interacted with nurses all year and have learned a ton about how to be a doctor.

 

[Splenda88]

Appreciate all of the good nurses out there especially considering that patient care would literally be impossible without them. I think a nurse should certainly be included on the task force. however, I have a couple of points that I've seen since being on the wards.

The comments made by nursing that medical students learn so much from nursing and that we learn how to manage patients due to their knowledge is hugely overblown. I've learned a few useful things from a nurse, but really not much so far. Maybe that will change intern year. Idk. You can be a competent and well-performing medical student without ever consulting to a nurse. I was surprised by how little face to face communication was done between nursing and medicine in the hospital. They are two separate teams that pretty much complete separate tasks and act more or less independent from eachother. I've barely interacted with nurses all year and have learned a ton about how to be a doctor.

You probably won't learn a lot from them on the floor, but you will definitely learn a lot from them in the ICU or ED if you do IM/FM/EM/Peds...

 

[NicMouse64]

You probably won't learn a lot from them on the floor, but you will definitely learn a lot from them in the ICU or ED if you do IM/FM/EM/Peds...

fair enough. Only done surgery and IM, so on med-surg floor this has been my experience.

 

[DrNotaDr]

fair enough. Only done surgery and IM, so on med-surg floor this has been my experience.

Surgery nurses don’t care to teach med students. IM nurses are usually all new grads and often don’t have much to share. Wait until you’re a resident in a ICU.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

fair enough. Only done surgery and IM, so on med-surg floor this has been my experience.

They can be extremely helpful in the ICU and ED.

 

[DO2015CA]

Extremely helpful in the ICU and ED for learning tips and tricks but not true management from a physician standpoint. They will absolutely save your butt though hands down and not administer a medication you over prescribed. They will also be your eyes and ears for when your pts are impending doom

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

They can be extremely helpful in the ICU and ED.

And OB

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And OB

I try to pretend like that place doesn’t exist.

 

[frenchyn]

I try to pretend like that place doesn’t exist.

HHahhahaha I had a worse experience with the OB nurses than the OB residents/attendings...still PTSD whenever I hear the two letters O.B

 

[deleted966164]

I wouldn't want to do an ED rotation in the ED I worked at. I feel like the nurses would eat me for breakfast.

 

[deleted393595]

Mostly agree, but there are a lot of RNs who a vocal about how they protect their patients from doctors trying to kill them with mistakes and ****. That kind of antagonistic crap hurts patient care.

Hilariously ironic. As a patient, the biggest a-holes have always been the nurses followed by front-desk staff. Doctors and patient techs tend to be the nicest. You'll likely find a direct correlation between those RNs vocal about "protecting patients from doctors" and those mistreating patients

EDIT: That being said, there are absolutely phenomenal nurses out there especially in our ED. There's a vast difference between those who will actively give our service a hand with patients (especially on a Sat night when we're being blasted with consults) and help find supplies versus those that will just sit scrolling through their phone and disappear at opportune moments. The problem is that we don't have an internal mechanism for providing "kudos" or acknowledgements to the actually good nurses that can help them get pay raises, rewards, etc.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Hilariously ironic. As a patient, the biggest a-holes have always been the nurses followed by front-desk staff. Doctors and patient techs tend to be the nicest. You'll likely find a direct correlation between those RNs vocal about "protecting patients from doctors" and those mistreating patients

I have had 4 serious health experiences with two family members and it's quite the oposite. The nurses were Angels sent from heaven. The doctors were not bad either, but the nurses were my heroes. just my personal experience.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have had 4 serious health experiences with two family members and it's quite the oposite. The nurses were Angels sent from heaven. The doctors were not bad either, but the nurses were my heroes. just my persnal experience.

And about 75% of the nurses we’ve (my wife and I) had as patients in the hospital have been super rude with zero communication skills. Anecdotes are anecdotes.

 

[jambro]

Are you really going to act like no one says this? This is such a common trope said by NPs and PAs.

I've heard this line for the first time from an anatomy professor just recently, lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've heard this line for the first time from an anatomy professor just recently, lol.

Good thing someone who’s been through neither is telling you they’re equal.

 

[DO2015CA]

I've heard this line for the first time from an anatomy professor just recently, lol.

That’s pretty funny since neither PA or NP even complete a comparable Medschool anatomy course

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That’s pretty funny since neither PA or NP even complete a comparable Medschool anatomy course

The NPs in the program at my school do cadaver lab course that is like a month long and is super abbreviated.

 

[Splenda88]

Make your MD/DO roles more distinguishable to students and patients. PA’s are mistaken for doctors all the time, especially in the lower-socio economic areas because patients don’t know the difference. They just see a coat and want their problem solved. If you can do that, than for all intensive purposes you’re their doctor no matter what the role. MD/DO’s are taught to lead but ego and business has changed Medicine as a whole, everyone guilty. Surgeons shouldn’t be able to throw scalpels at nursing when their frustrated and keep their jobs (fact: Google it). Nurses shouldn’t get screamed at because a Physician is frustrated(just commonplace at this point). Physicians don’t believe in collaboration, they believe in chain of command, that’s why people die and patients aren’t advocated for or if they are it goes on deaf ears. I’m all for Physician-lead teams, if you actually lead the team. How are you leading when Patients, Nurses, NP’s and I imagine pretty soon PA’s (Thanks AMA) don’t like you! (Stats are variable about whom prefers whom I admit)

4. Average PA healthcare hours is 2,500hrs per PA applicant and than just look at their resumes (I’m sure there’s a percentage that aren’t that great but that’s every profession). Put a PA applicant and a Pre-Med student applicant in a medical situation. Who knows more about what the illness/ disease is, I’d prob give it to the Med student applicant. who would be able to Keep the patient alive, majority of the time the PA applicant. The more you see the more you know. (medicine in a nutshell)

5. Research and Data to support facts. Feel free to fact check me‍ always up for a fact based debate.

That is not true in all the hospitals I have trained so far (med school and residency)

 

[popopopop]

^He/she says they're up for a fact base debate, but #2+4 has no research backing it up and wrong, while #3 is full of anecdotes like his point in #1?

 

[AMEHigh]

That would be an argument against PhD's; but physicians are, by and large, clinicians.


There is a good argument for adding a public health administrator or epidemiologist, but not a nurse.

There's no reason not to add a nurse to the team, but to replace a physician on the panel with a nurse - I just can't see how that would be a worthwhile exchange.

Maybe it's my lack of insight into nursing, but what would a mechanic know about cars that a car designer wouldn't? Especially that would apply at a national policy level?

I may be wrong here, I'm not an expert on nursing, but that's my thinking.

Lol. So if you don't know what you're talking about then maybe you should just sit back and listen and learn some more.
Nurses are a valuable part of health care teams. There are plenty of nurses that are experts in public health and epidemiology as well. Physicians don't have the monopoly of knowing every single thing in this world.
Nurses are also spending in general A LOT more time at the bedside with patients who have covid. I mean in general nurses spend a lot of time with patients, they educate and teach patients. Not saying that doctors don't do those things as well, but it's a disservice to not give nurses credit for that. Nurses are our eyes and ears to know what's going on with patients when we're not there. They often pick up on things when we're not around.

So yeah, nurses, especially those who are experts in public health and epidemiology can absolutely add value to a covid task force.
And I sincerely hope your attitude towards nurses changes as your career in medicine progresses.

 

[AMEHigh]

Of course plenty of nurses aren't stellar students. But we're not talking about picking up Betty Sue the floor nurse from Kansas to be on this task force.

Its more likely to be someone like this: | UCLA School of Nursing

Why you gotta hate on all the betty sue's and people from kansas?!?!

 

[AMEHigh]

This is honestly absurd, and while it sounds conceited to say this, you and a few other medical students here simply don't understand how things work in the real world. Nurses aren't simply "another ancillary member of the health team," they are the single most important part of delivering the care that is prescribed by a physician. On a day-to-day basis when I'm on service, I interface directly with nurses a heck of a lot more than any other member of the team simply because: 1) I need to make sure the orders that I entered are understood correctly; and 2) that the orders that I entered are actually feasible and don't violate something like line compatibility problems, floor policies, requests of the patient, etc. I don't talk directly to most of the other individuals that you mentioned simply because they aren't as intimately involved in carrying out the plan that I am trying to put in place. Since the nurses would be implementing the plan conceived by the task force, it is reasonable to ask to be part of the team.

So, I wouldn't consider it a travesty if a nurse ISN'T on the task force. But I understand why nurses are asking to be included, and personally would think it makes good sense. Frankly, I think we're getting pretty far into the weeds about something that ultimately wouldn't make a ton of difference in the long term recommendations that this team makes, and this is just turning into an opportunity for people to bash nurses for no reason.

I agree with everything you've said.
I'd also like to point out that the medical knowledge of nurses is also important. It's not like they're just robots who can't think on their own also.
I'd trust a nurse who has been working in the ICU for 20 years over an obgyn any day to take care of me in the ICU any day of the week from a medical perspective.
As a med student I also learned a lot from nurses on those rotations like the ICU.
So it's really a shame that people on here are bashing nurses because they are part of the healthcare team that we can certainly learn from as well.
And just like there are bad doctors out there, there are bad nurses. There are bad people in every profession, but those individuals don't make up the whole of the profession.

 

[frenchyn]

I agree with everything you've said.
I'd also like to point out that the medical knowledge of nurses is also important. It's not like they're just robots who can't think on their own also.
I'd trust a nurse who has been working in the ICU for 20 years over an obgyn any day to take care of me in the ICU any day of the week from a medical perspective.
As a med student I also learned a lot from nurses on those rotations like the ICU.
So it's really a shame that people on here are bashing nurses because they are part of the healthcare team that we can certainly learn from as well.
And just like there are bad doctors out there, there are bad nurses. There are bad people in every profession, but those individuals don't make up the whole of the profession.

I have never met a doctor who killed patients by listening nurses but I met doctors who killed patients because they think they are the best and they don’t need their team. Med school has some bull**** aspects but working collaboratively with your team no matter who they are is the one of the best tools if you master will make your life so easy as a doctor. There are loops and holes everywhere in the system, if people like you, they will make your lives so much easier and your patients will get the care they need way faster.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with everything you've said.
I'd also like to point out that the medical knowledge of nurses is also important. It's not like they're just robots who can't think on their own also.
I'd trust a nurse who has been working in the ICU for 20 years over an obgyn any day to take care of me in the ICU any day of the week from a medical perspective.
As a med student I also learned a lot from nurses on those rotations like the ICU.
So it's really a shame that people on here are bashing nurses because they are part of the healthcare team that we can certainly learn from as well.
And just like there are bad doctors out there, there are bad nurses. There are bad people in every profession, but those individuals don't make up the whole of the profession.

Who is bashing nurses? Again, I ask where that’s happening. There is OP who seems to have a thing against nurses and maybe one other user. Literally everyone else has been posting about how valuable they are and how having a nurse on the task force would be beneficial.

 

[Malik144]

^He/she says they're up for a fact base debate, but #2+4 has no research backing it up and wrong, while #3 is full of anecdotes like his point in #1?

#4 is an average of hour of recorded and collected and then submitted by PA applicants entering in a PA program, one comes out each year. How hard would That research be lol, I can like any data if you would like

#2 I never said that was a fact I said it’s math, I didn’t know I had to argue variations. Not every PA school is 24 months some PA schools are 32. Im sure Medical schools have different emphasis on breaks ect ect. The fact portion is that AAPA doesn’t support that rhetoric so you can’t say it’s PA’s propaganda. I can also link that data as well
#3 Was like all facts lol. The fact was that their isn’t a consensus on how PA’s and NP’s should function (read the forum of student doctors). Minority statistics say that minorities prefer to be treated by other minorities. I can link that as well. I’m sure you can just Google a case of nurse abuse; if you don’t believe it than I mean, best of luck to you sir/madam. The only non-fact I said which I even said wasn’t a fact and is variable are that NP’s, PA’s and nurses don’t like you, it seems obvious but it could be regional. But I don’t see their board of nursing backing up the Board of medicine. And the AMA doesn’t seem to be best friends with the ANA

Last point, you didn’t say any facts you just argued that my things weren’t facts and had no data... In order to disapprove something you have to definitively disprove it not just say no it’s not lol
Forgot to do #1: My comment was referring to something a medical student said from this forum not a generalization about medical
Student beliefs and research. Minorities who say things don’t make up the majority, regardless of what they’re saying. So you can’t just hear
Something a few times and say it must be true, it’s more common sense than a fact, so I don’t have data you’ll just have to take my word for it

 

[Malik144]

That is not true in all the hospitals I have trained so far (med school and residency)

I’m sure there’s many places where nurses get treated with respect they deserve but sexual harassment, work abuse and discrimination are by no means rare and that’s unacceptable. I do appreciate wherever you attend for not being apart of that demographic

 

[RangerBob]

I have never met a doctor who killed patients by listening nurses but I met doctors who killed patients because they think they are the best and they don’t need their team. Med school has some bull**** aspects but working collaboratively with your team no matter who they are is the one of the best tools if you master will make your life so easy as a doctor. There are loops and holes everywhere in the system, if people like you, they will make your lives so much easier and your patients will get the care they need way faster.

Agree. Nurses have saved my butt (and more importantly, my patient's butt's) plenty of times. I round and then go home if I have no admissions. The nurse is at the bedside intermittently all day. If a patient has a sudden change in status an hour after I left, I want to know about it. I've had plenty of patients I had to get emergent imaging/work up for and/or transfer after hours.

Like the Lego Movie song, "everything is cool when you're part of a team."

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Perfect example of why people don’t trust information.
1. A Medical student, is just listening to other people about a profession instead of just doing research. There are 1st year med students that think they know more than experience RN’s lol. Does that speak for all of you?

I’m 2 weeks from finishing preclinicals. If I don’t know more than most nurses about the basic science of medicine, my med school has egregiously failed me. Nurses go to nursing school, not med school. I have a few nurses in my family who have been nurses for a looong time, and I know more about the basic sciences than they do. Because I am in medical school and they haven’t gone to medical school. This is not a difficult concept.

Similarly, a nurse with a couple years experience in basically any department will run circles around me when it comes to the practical aspects of medicine, of anything in nursing, and in the details of their unit and the attendings and patients there.

It is a false dichotomy that keeps getting perpetuated that either med students/residents know more than nurses or they don’t. In reality, we know more than them about the stuff we’ve been learning and they know more than us about the stuff they’ve been doing every day. This should be extremely obvious but for some reason so many people want to pretend it’s one or the other

2. The “propoganda” isn’t that it’s medical school in 2 years. The terminology is 2/3 Med school condensed into half the time. Medical school is 4 years w/summers off for the first 2, so it’s about 40 months. PA’s study straight through 24-28 month programs, it’s just math people.

Kind of ironic you say it’s just math, since you got multiple things wrong here. First, there is literally propaganda that PA school is “med school in 2 years.” This is all over their message boards and subreddits, and I’ve had multiple PAs and PA students tell me this. Also, when I was in my first year of a 4-year bachelors PA program (this was a very long time ago, before they were all masters), I was told that by faculty. It is very common.

Second, we do not have breaks in the summer the first two years. Many medical schools have a break between M1 and M2, but that’s it. M2 runs directly into M3, and in an increasing number of schools, there is no break between M1 and M2. At my school, we get 2 weeks off between first and second year.

Let’s assume PA school is 2.5 years with no breaks. A med school with a break between first and second year will have 3 straight years from M2 until graduation and then 9 months of M1. So that’s 3.75 years of school. Hopefully you can see that 3.75 is greater than 2.5.

Now the content. You might be tempted to say, well they cover the same material in less time so their argument is still valid. Except they don’t. During the preclinical year, they average 14-18 credits per semester. During preclinicals in medical school, the average is about 25-30 credits per semester, and the depth in these credits is greater. Hopefully you can see that 25-30 is greater than 14-18.

In the clinical phase of PA school, they get an average of 2,850 clinical hours. In the clinical phase of medical school, we get an average of 4,000 clinical hours. Hopefully you can see that 4,000 is greater than 2,850.

So no, PA school isn’t med school in 2 years. It’s not even close.

3. The reason PA’s exist is to be able to aid physicians shortages and assist with Physcian burnout and resident overload. However, increasing shortages have evolved the PA role to the point where PA’s can be PCPs. A lot of patients don’t even see a doctor these days. MD/DO’s are never on the same page either. Some say PA’s do 99% of their jobs, some say they don’t do half of what they do. Which is it? Are we referring to the 8% who are in Surgery? Being an MD doesn’t mean you’re a surgeon or that you could be a surgeon. A PA shouldn’t be calling themselves something that they aren’t, it’s illegal and distrustful. But if a PA is doing 99% of what a doctor does in certain settings, not all setting but certain ones. Than why are we surprised by that rhetoric, which I’ve heard mostly from new age students. Make your MD/DO roles more distinguishable to students and patients. PA’s are mistaken for doctors all the time, especially in the lower-socio economic areas because patients don’t know the difference. They just see a coat and want their problem solved. If you can do that, than for all intensive purposes you’re their doctor no matter what the role. MD/DO’s are taught to lead but ego and business has changed Medicine as a whole, everyone guilty. Surgeons shouldn’t be able to throw scalpels at nursing when their frustrated and keep their jobs (fact: Google it). Nurses shouldn’t get screamed at because a Physician is frustrated(just commonplace at this point). Physicians don’t believe in collaboration, they believe in chain of command, that’s why people die and patients aren’t advocated for or if they are it goes on deaf ears. I’m all for Physician-lead teams, if you actually lead the team. How are you leading when Patients, Nurses, NP’s and I imagine pretty soon PA’s (Thanks AMA) don’t like you! (Stats are variable about whom prefers whom I admit)

This is a bit rambling so I am not sure I even get your point here. There are so many logical fallacies here I don’t even know where to begin.

4. Average PA healthcare hours is 2,500hrs per PA applicant and than just look at their resumes (I’m sure there’s a percentage that aren’t that great but that’s every profession). Put a PA applicant and a Pre-Med student applicant in a medical situation. Who knows more about what the illness/ disease is, I’d prob give it to the Med student applicant. who would be able to Keep the patient alive, majority of the time the PA applicant. The more you see the more you know. (medicine in a nutshell)

This is the same argument NPs and CRNAs use. It is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if you have 10,000 hours as an EMT. That doesn’t prepare you to be a physician. It prepares you to be a good EMT. I had almost 10,000 clinical hours in healthcare as an OR tech, first assistant, and corpsman. None of that prepared me to be a physician except that it let me know I really wanted to work with sick people and I got to be around physicians to get an idea of what their job is like. An idea. That’s it. Oh, and I’ll already know how to gown and glove myself and drive the camera in a lap chole. According to the NPs and PAs, that means I’m basically a doctor.

5. Research and Data to support facts. Feel free to fact check me‍ always up for a fact based debate.

You have so many things wrong in this post. Almost nothing you said was fact based.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m sure there’s many places where nurses get treated with respect they deserve but sexual harassment, work abuse and discrimination are by no means rare and that’s unacceptable. I do appreciate wherever you attend for not being apart of that demographic

If you’re going to claim that physicians are commonly sexually harassing nurses, please provide data.

 

[Malik144]

I’m 2 weeks from finishing preclinicals. If I don’t know more than most nurses about the basic science of medicine, my med school has egregiously failed me. Nurses go to nursing school, not med school. I have a few nurses in my family who have been nurses for a looong time, and I know more about the basic sciences than they do. Because I am in medical school and they haven’t gone to medical school. This is not a difficult concept.

Similarly, a nurse with a couple years experience in basically any department will run circles around me when it comes to the practical aspects of medicine, of anything in nursing, and in the details of their unit and the attendings and patients there.

It is a false dichotomy that keeps getting perpetuated that either med students/residents know more than nurses or they don’t. In reality, we know more than them about the stuff we’ve been learning and they know more than us about the stuff they’ve been doing every day. This should be extremely obvious but for some reason so many people want to pretend it’s one or the other



Kind of ironic you say it’s just math, since you got multiple things wrong here. First, there is literally propaganda that PA school is “med school in 2 years.” This is all over their message boards and subreddits, and I’ve had multiple PAs and PA students tell me this. Also, when I was in my first year of a 4-year bachelors PA program (this was a very long time ago, before they were all masters), I was told that by faculty. It is very common.

Second, we do not have breaks in the summer the first two years. Many medical schools have a break between M1 and M2, but that’s it. M2 runs directly into M3, and in an increasing number of schools, there is no break between M1 and M2. At my school, we get 2 weeks off between first and second year.

Let’s assume PA school is 2.5 years with no breaks. A med school with a break between first and second year will have 3 straight years from M2 until graduation and then 9 months of M1. So that’s 3.75 years of school. Hopefully you can see that 3.75 is greater than 2.5.

Now the content. You might be tempted to say, well they cover the same material in less time so their argument is still valid. Except they don’t. During the preclinical year, they average 14-18 credits per semester. During preclinicals in medical school, the average is about 25-30 credits per semester, and the depth in these credits is greater. Hopefully you can see that 25-30 is greater than 14-18.

In the clinical phase of PA school, they get an average of 2,850 clinical hours. In the clinical phase of medical school, we get an average of 4,000 clinical hours. Hopefully you can see that 4,000 is greater than 2,850.

So no, PA school isn’t med school in 2 years. It’s not even close.


This is a bit rambling so I am not sure I even get your point here. There are so many logical fallacies here I don’t even know where to begin.

This is the same argument NPs and CRNAs use. It is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if you have 10,000 hours as an EMT. That doesn’t prepare you to be a physician. It prepares you to be a good EMT. I had almost 10,000 clinical hours in healthcare as an OR tech, first assistant, and corpsman. None of that prepared me to be a physician except that it let me know I really wanted to work with sick people and I got to be around physicians to get an idea of what their job is like. An idea. That’s it. Oh, and I’ll already know how to gown and glove myself and drive the camera in a lap chole. According to the NPs and PAs, that means I’m basically a doctor.

You have so many things wrong in this post. Almost nothing you said was fact based.

You’re 100% right I wrote that awhile ago and didn’t finish researching or editing so never posted it. My apologies, must have accidentally sent it. Refer to my other points, again apologies