New practitioners salary

[practicebuilder]

Was wondering what new Podiatric physician starting salary would be. I want real, honest, and reasonable salaries that one would want to accept in 2013. Thanks

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[feet2017]

from what I have seen based on post by attendings, it is extremely variable. i've seen numbers from like 80k to 250k. I know this doesn't help, but good luck

 

[dtrack22]

ACFAS salary and benefits survey

good breakdown of salary (without bonus/incentives) by age, ABPS status, years in practice, etc. Also separate surveys for bonus $$$

 

[Arijos0222]

ACFAS salary and benefits survey

good breakdown of salary (without bonus/incentives) by age, ABPS status, years in practice, etc. Also separate surveys for bonus $$$

Certified RRA Surgery shows a 50K increase over those of whom are certified in Foot and Ankle Surgery.

But how is the lifestyle of those reconstructive surgeons?

 

[PADPM]

I don't have much confidence in any of these surveys, so please don't get hung up on these numbers. I am a fellow of the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons and think very highly of the organization. But I have been with docs when surveys were answered and numbers were often exaggerated.

This is strictly my opinion.

 

[dtrack22]

I get that people can lie on a survey (although I don't understand what they stand to gain by doing so on an anonymous survey), so my question is, are you dismissing the survey because you feel it is inaccurate? Or just because it is a survey and all surveys are inherently biased?

 

[PADPM]

I get that people can lie on a survey (although I don't understand what they stand to gain by doing so on an anonymous survey), so my question is, are you dismissing the survey because you feel it is inaccurate? Or just because it is a survey and all surveys are inherently biased?

Yes to both. A survey doesn't have to be biased if it is based on hard fact. If they asked to see each participant's tax return it would have more validity to me. The data that comes out of the survey is only as good as the accuracy of the data inputted.

Once again, this is simply my opinion based on reviewing the results of many surveys over many years, and comparing those results with what I consider the real world.

 

[dtrack22]

Yes to both. A survey doesn't have to be biased if it is based on hard fact. If they asked to see each participant's tax return it would have more validity to me. The data that comes out of the survey is only as good as the accuracy of the data inputted.

Once again, this is simply my opinion based on reviewing the results of many surveys over many years, and comparing those results with what I consider the real world.

Right, I probably should have used the word "poll" when talking about bias but I get/agree with what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Creflo]

Check out the salary survey in the current issue of Podiatry Management. The numbers are different.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

Check out the salary survey in the current issue of Podiatry Management. The numbers are different.

You can get to this via the Podiatry Management website, it's the link in the red box that says "Click HERE for PM's most recent survey report" on the front page at the bottom.

It will take a little more time for me to really digest the overlap and differences between this and the ACFAS survey, some of it is not surprising at all ie the gap between geographic areas of the country.

One obvious difference between the two is also the sample pool of podiatrists is less focused on a certain type of practitioner here than the ACAFS survey.

Truthfully, any thoughts of one day actually making money instead of taking out more loans and my mind starts to wander. Maybe PADPM can chime in once he has a chance to go over these numbers as well.

 

[RockyIV]

2 things, if your gross income is $250k (median), what are you doing all day? Also, if surgery doesn't pay then why was my profit sharing check from a surgical center larger than 25% of respondents yearly net income?

 

[PADPM]

2 things, if your gross income is $250k (median), what are you doing all day? Also, if surgery doesn't pay then why was my profit sharing check from a surgical center larger than 25% of respondents yearly net income?

I'm not sure anyone said surgery doesn't pay. However, when you add up the numbers, surgery is not always the most profitable. When you consider travel time to the facility, pre op time with the patient, wait time for your room to be ready, turn around time between cases, intra operative time, time at the hospital or facility post operatively, travel time back to the office AND the global fee period ( for those who don't know, that's a set period of time where post op visits can't be billed), the numbers aren't always that great.

I love surgery and do a fair amount of cases weekly, yet one of my partners who no longer performs surgery, produces more than I do. Every hour I'm involved with surgery, he's treating 6 patients that hour.

Saying surgery pays because you're getting reimbursed for your interest in a surgical center is not quite the same. You are getting reimbursed for all procedures being performed by all surgeons in the center, and you are earning profits when you're not even there. And as you know, your earnings can not be directly related to your actual individual production. So if you didn't perform a case for 3 weeks, you still share in the profits.

For those who don't have a financial interest in a surgical center, surgery is obviously not as profitable since you are not getting paid twice, once for the procedure and once for the facility.

Additionally, grossing 250k isn't difficult in a well paying environment or when joining an existing practice. But try not to be judgemental if you entered an existing practice with patients waiting. For those who started from scratch, earning 250k isn't that easy. I know, I started from scratch a long time ago. It's pretty easy to take a situation for granted if you enter a successful practice with a large patient base.

 

[PADPM]

Check out the salary survey in the current issue of Podiatry Management. The numbers are different.

And this reinforces my opinion. Podiatry Today has numbers that differ from Podiatry Management, and those survey numbers differ from the ACFAS survey which differ from the APMA survey.......

So, I wouldn't get hung up on surveys. As a famous sports announcer once said, "statistics are for losers".

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Work hard, be ethical and treat your patients well, and you will make a much better than average living.

 

[RockyIV]

I'm not sure anyone said surgery doesn't pay. However, when you add up the numbers, surgery is not always the most profitable. When you consider travel time to the facility, pre op time with the patient, wait time for your room to be ready, turn around time between cases, intra operative time, time at the hospital or facility post operatively, travel time back to the office AND the global fee period ( for those who don't know, that's a set period of time where post op visits can't be billed), the numbers aren't always that great.

When you are a student that's all you hear from the APMA board members that come talk, many AAPPM speakers, and ABPM representatives. The guys who don't do much of it make sure to downplay it from my experience. Yes, reimbursements from the procedure itself is not as profitable as doing the 10 pna's you could do in the same time. But I feel like the "surgery doesn't pay" mantra or mentality is what's wrong with a lot of podiatry practices.

It's no secret that most specialties don't make money off of the medicine that they practice. It's about ownership. Surgical centers, diagnostic equipment, office space you can lease out to imaging groups, PT, etc. And for whatever reason, podiatry seems somewhat behind the times when it comes to building practices in the way you see ortho and multispecialty (MD/DO) groups do it. Which is "the" reason I personally looked to get involved with those types of groups out of residency. Not that you can't do that in a medium to large sized podiatry group. You and your partners obviously do well for yourselves. In my opinion, it's just an uphill battle that I didn't want or need to fight.

Additionally, grossing 250k isn't difficult in a well paying environment or when joining an existing practice. But try not to be judgemental if you entered an existing practice with patients waiting. For those who started from scratch, earning 250k isn't that easy.

You are absolutely right. The reason I brought it up though was because almost 75% of respondents in this particular survey have been in practice for over 6 years. 250k is an awfully low "median" considering.

I just hate that students come out thinking sub 100k salaries are ok. They are being taken advantage of, plain and simple. You have too much training to take a job that pays less than what an NP could make doing wound care for a practice (and they can't even offer the full spectrum of care not being able to take those patients to surgery). I don't believe that many people are guilty of "eating their young", but it definitely exists and I don't think it should. Especially those APMA guys that are so concerned about "advancing" our profession...guess when title XIX is your main battle we shouldn't expect much else.

 

[g squared 23]

Especially those APMA guys that are so concerned about "advancing" our profession...guess when title XIX is your main battle we shouldn't expect much else.

Could not have said it better myself. Those guys are about as disconnected from reality as it gets.

 

[PADPM]

When you are a student that's all you hear from the APMA board members that come talk, many AAPPM speakers, and ABPM representatives. The guys who don't do much of it make sure to downplay it from my experience. Yes, reimbursements from the procedure itself is not as profitable as doing the 10 pna's you could do in the same time. But I feel like the "surgery doesn't pay" mantra or mentality is what's wrong with a lot of podiatry practices.

It's no secret that most specialties don't make money off of the medicine that they practice. It's about ownership. Surgical centers, diagnostic equipment, office space you can lease out to imaging groups, PT, etc. And for whatever reason, podiatry seems somewhat behind the times when it comes to building practices in the way you see ortho and multispecialty (MD/DO) groups do it. Which is "the" reason I personally looked to get involved with those types of groups out of residency. Not that you can't do that in a medium to large sized podiatry group. You and your partners obviously do well for yourselves. In my opinion, it's just an uphill battle that I didn't want or need to fight.



You are absolutely right. The reason I brought it up though was because almost 75% of respondents in this particular survey have been in practice for over 6 years. 250k is an awfully low "median" considering.

I just hate that students come out thinking sub 100k salaries are ok. They are being taken advantage of, plain and simple. You have too much training to take a job that pays less than what an NP could make doing wound care for a practice (and they can't even offer the full spectrum of care not being able to take those patients to surgery). I don't believe that many people are guilty of "eating their young", but it definitely exists and I don't think it should. Especially those APMA guys that are so concerned about "advancing" our profession...guess when title XIX is your main battle we shouldn't expect much else.

Starting salaries below 100k does not necessarily indicate that a practice is exploiting a new grad. As you've already outlined, podiatric practices can not really be compared to orthopedic or multi specialty practices. Although there are many pods who have invested in surgery centers, there are much fewer that have ownership in MRI facilities, PT facilities, etc. An orthopedic or multi specialty group have a much stronger chance to drive those facilities since they feed them with a significant variety of pathology, vs pods who treat a limited body part.

Your points are valid, but I'm afraid your views may be a little skewed or biased. Since you have not started your own podiatric practice or had the opportunity to be an associate or partner in a podiatric practice, it may be difficult to walk in their shoes. You are in an enviable position, working with/for a large orthopedic or multi specialty group that existed prior to your arrival. You personally don't have the bills cross your desk for employee benefits, taxes, rent/mortgage, utilities, lab fees, professional dues, hospital staff dues, license fees, supply bills, equipment bills, payroll, malpractice fees, and the list can go on for multiple pages.

As a result, it's very easy to sit back and scratch your head at low incomes or "low" starting salaries, especially when you have entered a large practice with all the ducks already in a row.

A colleague with a large and successful practice called me. He wants to hire a new associate, but his overhead is high, his insurance carrier reimbursements suck, etc. He is probably busy enough for two new docs, but can only afford to pay one, with a respectable salary, but certainly nothing that would please you. He is offering a bonus structure, but just can not pay a new doc big bucks UNTIL that new doc starts actually producing income.

So it's not always as simple as blaming the old for eating the young. First, no one has to accept a low ball offer if they can find an alternative. Second, the doctor looking for an associate can be taking a risk until income is produced by the new doc, and of course starting salaries will depend on geographic areas, percent of HMO/capitated contracts and the payor reimbursement in the area.

Be happy that you are in the upper end of the income scale, but don't assume that docs offering less than stellar salaries are screwing anyone, and don't automatically believe that those who may be in practice a few or even several years are necessarily doing something wrong if not making big bucks.

I am fortunate and I'm a partner in a large and successful podiatric practice and I do a fair amount of surgery weekly, and I'm involved with the training of an extremely well respected and well know residency. But I know many excellent and hard working docs who aren't bringing in the big bucks. It 'ain't easy.

 

[RockyIV]

You personally don't have the bills cross your desk for employee benefits, taxes, rent/mortgage, utilities, lab fees, professional dues, hospital staff dues, license fees, supply bills, equipment bills, payroll, malpractice fees, and the list can go on for multiple pages.

This statement assumes that I don't know the cost associated with these things. I think you are more so trying to prove a point to other readers, but I have to ask, do you think I just show up every morning and go about my business without any clue as to what's involved in the overhead required to run a practice?

Be happy that you are in the upper end of the income scale, but don't assume that docs offering less than stellar salaries are screwing anyone, and don't automatically believe that those who may be in practice a few or even several years are necessarily doing something wrong if not making big bucks

This statement (while not incorrect if we were talking about different $ amounts) is what's wrong with a lot of the thinking within our profession. Keep in mind we are talking $250k median GROSS income (not just salary) and sub $75K net incomes. So I read the comment above and the term "big bucks" as being applied to those numbers I have been harping on all along. Those are not, in any way, shape, or form, "big bucks". But, for whatever reason, our profession (as a whole) seems to think that similar income figures are "ok." And something that doesn't need to be addressed.

If you can't pay an associate $100k, you either don't really need an associate or you have some serious issues with practice management and are more than likely running with overhead that is unnecessarily high. Also, if you think that you can't pay an associate that much money because you won't make enough money from the associate while he/she is an associate, then you don't understand the grand scheme of hiring an associate and growing your practice. Hint: it is not to make money off of them for 2 years...

Barry Block is the real genius in our profession. He makes a butt-ton of money to edit and publish largely outdated and useless materials that a majority of our profession just eats up. This survey included. A survey that you should stop reading when you see more respondents advertising in the yellow pages than on the internet....

 

[PADPM]

This statement assumes that I don't know the cost associated with these things. I think you are more so trying to prove a point to other readers, but I have to ask, do you think I just show up every morning and go about my business without any clue as to what's involved in the overhead required to run a practice?

I never assume not did I accuse. However, in MY opinion, there is a huge difference between knowing the cost of the items mentioned above, and actually being the one responsible for paying those bills. B

This statement (while not incorrect if we were talking about different $ amounts) is what's wrong with a lot of the thinking within our profession. Keep in mind we are talking $250k median GROSS income (not just salary) and sub $75K net incomes. So I read the comment above and the term "big bucks" as being applied to those numbers I have been harping on all along. Those are not, in any way, shape, or form, "big bucks". But, for whatever reason, our profession (as a whole) seems to think that similar income figures are "ok." And something that doesn't need to be addressed.

If you can't pay an associate $100k, you either don't really need an associate or you have some serious issues with practice management and are more than likely running with overhead that is unnecessarily high. Also, if you think that you can't pay an associate that much money because you won't make enough money from the associate while he/she is an associate, then you don't understand the grand scheme of hiring an associate and growing your practice. Hint: it is not to make money off of them for 2 years...

Barry Block is the real genius in our profession. He makes a butt-ton of money to edit and publish largely outdated and useless materials that a majority of our profession just eats up. This survey included. A survey that you should stop reading when you see more respondents advertising in the yellow pages than on the internet....

I understand your statement and just wanted to make sure you are talking about gross income produced for the practice and not salary. Believe me, I've been around for a while and have perspectives from both sides. I started from scratch and had some hard times. My partners and I are fully aware of how to succeed in practice or we wouldn't have enough docs to field a sports team (and I'm not talking about basketball). We know the formulas and we know what to expect when hiring an associate.

And yes, I do appreciate your experience and success. But coming on board a ship running at full steam is a much different experience than starting from day one with nothing.