New mom sues medical licensing board

[Miami_med]

A day here, a day there, that, you know, "pop-up" are tolerable (ie. my kid is sick and I need to take him to the pediatrician today or my brother died in an accident I'm going to the funeral this weekend) and understandable, but,

"hey guys, since I made a decision to have a baby, I will have to be on light duty and short hours, because lifting/moving patients and the emotional stress at work might cause complications with my pregnancy and when it gets to painful to stand long (and it will) I will have to stop work and wont be back for weeks (maybe months) while I birth my child, and spend time with him/her until my government money runs out, sorry, but you know life happens. See you guys on rounds!"

The difference seems pretty obvious.

If you're good enough, your job just might accomadate you. It depends on your job. The problem isn't people making accomadations, it's the expectations of accomadations. Slavery was abolished. Quit your job and get another one if you don't like the policy on pregnancy. Women are such a force in the workplace, that many accomadations are made without any lawsuits or government intervention, because they are actually important to the workplace, and the make concessions to keep them. There's nothing wrong with helping a woman who chooses to get pregnant. There is something wrong with expecting people to help who don't want to and had nothing to do with the pregnancy.

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[BabyBop]

Well this doesn't concern me really because I had all my kids before or *gasp* during med school (and yes they were both planned, why did she do that? Is she stupid?), but since I have decided not to abstain during residency and my birth control method (Mirena IUD) has a 0.5% failure rate, I guess I still may have that responsibility.

I'm sorry but I am *entitled* by LAW to 6 weeks of maternity leave, and I will take at least 4 of them, 6 if I need to. I'm sorry for my fellow residents, and I will try to do as much as I can before and after to make-up for my absence. But please don't resent me because your employers are unwilling to hire a temp to replace me, a resident, although they do it everyday for the pregnant nurse, the secretary, the janitor, the administrative person, ANYONE ELSE. They are the ones screwing you over, not me.

The system is messed up, and if I have an unplanned pregnancy because I decided to have sex (how dare I, by the way?), I'm not sacrificing my health or that of my baby to try to put a band-aid on the system. Same thing if my pregnancy was planned, actually. You should be upset about the way residencies are set-up, the way hospitals abuse their residents, not about your pregnant colleagues. I like the argument that pregnancies or other family needs should be expected and there should be a contingency plan.

 

[Arsenic]

All she has to do is PASS and she gets a slot at MGH?

wow... whining beats working I guess...

i wonder how she scored that deal, especially since shes already failed step 2 once.

it just boggles my mind that a harvard md-phd would make all this noise when all she has to do is PASS step 2 ck. not get a 230+ or something, PASS. insanity.

the nbme has already broken the 1 day exam into 2 days for her and given her 45 minutes of break each day because of her ADHD. its just crazy, instead of whining she should have just buckled down and studied instead of running to her lawyer and dragging this crap into the courts. then she'd be done with this test already instead of delaying.

 

[CampUnity]

Of course she could. She's implying that she will have medical complications if she doesn't pump every 2 or 3 hrs. I'm not sure why her boobs are any different than anyone elses...but who's to say?

This is why the story seems even more dubious, IMHO.

Everyone else had to suck it up, and so does she. I am all for breast-feeding because it is healthy for the baby. But like the response above, she can just pump the milk for couple days, and store it in the fridge for the baby sitter to give to the baby. Not pumping the milk every 2 or 3 hours won't hurt. The bottom line is that I think she's just trying to get the extra break.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

it just boggles my mind that a harvard md-phd would make all this noise when all she has to do is PASS step 2 ck. not get a 230+ or something, PASS. insanity.

There is only one conclusion: Harvard students are stupid.

 

[blurry]

i wonder how she scored that deal, especially since shes already failed step 2 once.

The real father of her child could be the program director at MGH. I think that pretty much explains everything.

 

[Jwax]

The real father of her child could be the program director at MGH. I think that pretty much explains everything.

Good call.

 

[BabyBop]

Everyone else had to suck it up, and so does she. I am all for breast-feeding because it is healthy for the baby. But like the response above, she can just pump the milk for couple days, and store it in the fridge for the baby sitter to give to the baby. Not pumping the milk every 2 or 3 hours won't hurt. The bottom line is that I think she's just trying to get the extra break.

OK, I know most of you guys don't have kids yet and have no idea what breastfeeding entails, but it has been said multiple times that the problem is not whether or not she has a sitter or has enough milk pumped in advance to feed the baby. I'm sure she has a freezer full.

The problem is that her body will keep producing milk at the same rate that it usually does at that time of the day. So if she doesn't pump regularly, she will get VERY engorged (you wouldn't believe the difference in size, nor how hard they get) and that will hurt like h#$%, I promise you. I've gotten engorged enough that I've cried (and I didn't cry from labor pains with any of my kids), and I even got low-grade fever and flu-like symptoms from it. Now SHE has more than enough accomodations to pump appropriately so that's not the matter... the rest of us don't.

 

[Tired]

The problem is that her body will keep producing milk at the same rate that it usually does at that time of the day. So if she doesn't pump regularly, she will get VERY engorged (you wouldn't believe the difference in size, nor how hard they get) . . .

That's so hot.

 

[BabyBop]

That's so hot.

Yeah it would be (if you like the Pam Anderson style) if it weren't for the stretch marks and the projectile milk leaking . Plus, you can't touch!

 

[Coastie]

Nobody is bashing women for having babies/breastfeeding/having sex. I think everyone is bashing Sophie for...oh so many obvious reasons.

I believe this thread does show that we think while any woman should be free to have babies anytime (obviously), that we also know that these things do not happen in a vacuum: actions have consequences. Sophie had the option to take the test at another time, and if she had to choose between taking care of her child to her personal standards versus taking the test, it's just a consequence of the responsbility she took on and to the personal standards she holds dear. She could have hired a nanny, used formula, delayed the test, or "suffered" through.

In the same vein, any man or woman who decides to have a baby has to bring to compromise their careers versus their standards for childcare. In some cases, this isn't an issue, in that they will hire nannies, have family members, or, in the case of Britney Spears, leave them alone with a bodyguard. As a physician and parent, we have responsibilities to our careers, colleagues, and children, and as a result of our action to pursue these various lifestyles, consequences follow when attempting to balance the optimal pursuit of each.

As for women and how residency affects their love life/relationships as compared to male docs (and yes, it's far different to each sex), that's a whole 'nother thread which I'll love reading but absolutely stay away from.

Funny how this thread has degenerated from bashing the manipulative whininess of Sophie Currier to making blanket statements about how female residents shouldn't have kids because it makes life harder for everyone else.

Women are 29-31 by the time they finish residency (and that's if they go straight through from college). It's unreasonable to expect women to put their reproductive lives on hold for that long, especially given the decreased chance of conception and the increased risk of many birth defects. Also, resident maternity leave isn't months-long or anything -- the policies that Google returned are pretty much all 4 weeks + 2 weeks vacation time if absolutely necessary.

I can understand resentment at women who abuse the system, though. Like Sophie Currier. Let's get back to bashing her; that was more fun than this.

 

[Writer1985]

I'll say it again: you need to take responsibility for how you approach reproduction. You can't just have sex whenever you want, and then expect others to pickup your slack because you either didn't abstain from sex or take precautions (many of them, I assume medical students know them).

Dude, no one is saying that pregnant residents aren't taking responsibility for having had sex. I'd say that pregnancy, labor, and raising a child demonstrate a hell of a lot of responsibility.

As someone said, when maternity leave becomes "hang out with baby" time, it's unfair to your colleagues and you should go back to work. But <i>reasonable</i> accomodations can and should be made for maternity leave, especially when women made up 40% of residents/fellows in 2001 (the latest year I could find data for).

Is this really a serious issue in residency programs, or are we all blowing it out of proportion?

 

[alwaysaangel]

Well right or wrong, but its pretty common to have children during residency. Its the first time that you can get paid maternity leave (making it more financially sound and practical for you than taking off time during med school or college). Now yes it sucks for the other residents, and hopefully the mother would take that into account.

But when I have talked to current female doctors about the best time to have kids - a lot of them tout having children in residency. So selfish or not, correct or not a lot of women believe thats the best time to have kids. With those kinds of attitudes going around its probably not going to change anytime soon.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Dude, no one is saying that pregnant residents aren't taking responsibility for having had sex. I'd say that pregnancy, labor, and raising a child demonstrate a hell of a lot of responsibility.

Getting pregnant when you don't want to get pregnant isn't being responsible, it's reckless. What, people have a right to have sex no matter what? Some kind of protected act? And if you get pregnant, your right to do so trumps the rights that others have because you were able to procreate?

She chose to have a child during medical school, but figures "what the heck, everyone will bow to my will because I'm a woman and I had sex with my boyfriend/husband/random guy and got pregnant." I'll sue them until they give me everything I want because when I choose to have a child, forget everyone else. It's my right to have a child no matter the consequences; I shouldn't have to take responsibility...you should.

I don't get why people feel some kind of entitlement because they have a child. Like they're something special. Wow, you had sex and got pregnant. Wow, I can procreate! Look at me!

Look, if it was for any other reason, any other conscious choice that a student made that affected their medical school or residency, I doubt any program would just bend the rules because of your choice. I doubt I could goto my dean and say... "Hey, I got drunk last night so I'm suing you if you don't let me take the test next week" (or insert any thing you might choose like booking a cruise, taking a week or two off, getting liposuction, whatever). But somehow people on here think, well if it's the conscious decision to procreate, well they should get special dispensation for that. I don't get it.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Well right or wrong, but its pretty common to have children during residency. Its the first time that you can get paid maternity leave (making it more financially sound and practical for you than taking off time during med school or college). Now yes it sucks for the other residents, and hopefully the mother would take that into account.

But when I have talked to current female doctors about the best time to have kids - a lot of them tout having children in residency. So selfish or not, correct or not a lot of women believe thats the best time to have kids. With those kinds of attitudes going around its probably not going to change anytime soon.

No problem to have children, great for them! But they need to realize that they made a commitment to their program to fulfill whatever the program requires. They can't expect their program to give them more time off than other students just because they decided to procreate, no more than giving someone time off because they decided to get married and go on a honeymoon or go on vacation. If they can juggle residency and taking care of a child, great! But don't then expect and demand everyone to bend to your will because of it.

 

[jdh71]

I imagine the reason you (jdh) are so heated about the issue is because you are a resident and are currently dealing with this situation, or will be getting to do so in the near future.

Not currently dealing with this issue, merely reacting strongly to the sentiment that everyone should just "have to" deal with any woman's choice to have a child. I'm a responsibility nazi, for reasons unrelated to this topic, and when I hear what sounds like passing the buck, I'm going to call someone on it. Obviously, and with a much cooler head, I'm sure you can see that it is not my responsibility to deal with your consequences? No? A person does not get to have everything their way at all times, especially if you are expecting everyone else to accommodate your behavior. There are times in your life when you will not be able to do everything you want at the same time - have a baby, go ahead, but please be respectful to the rest of us not burden us with your choice. To me it's simple, unless you can seamlessly have your child without disturbing your fellows, then it's either currently in residency or baby.

 

[alwaysaangel]

No problem to have children, great for them! But they need to realize that they made a commitment to their program to fulfill whatever the program requires. They can't expect their program to give them more time off than other students just because they decided to procreate, no more than giving someone time off because they decided to get married and go on a honeymoon or go on vacation. If they can juggle residency and taking care of a child, great! But don't then expect and demand everyone to bend to your will because of it.

Its a job - you're allowed maternity leave. Right or wrong, I'm just saying whats done. Every other job allows maternity (and nowadays even paternity leave). Residency shouldn't be any different. Its a job.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Its a job - you're allowed maternity leave. Right or wrong, I'm just saying whats done. Every other job allows maternity (and nowadays even paternity leave). Residency shouldn't be any different. Its a job.

Well, sort of. You make money, but you are a student with certain requirements held on you. It's not the same as being an attending, or in other words a regular job. Slots, if lost, can't be filled. They are gone, and funding is scarce in residencies.

Sure, if you want to get all sue happy, you could force it and take the maternity leave. But you are still someone who chose to have a child while shirking your responsibilities as a resident. I doubt you'd make many friends in your residency that way.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Well, sort of. You make money, but you are a student with certain requirements held on you. It's not the same as being an attending, or in other words a regular job. Slots, if lost, can't be filled. They are gone, and funding is scarce in residencies.

Sure, if you want to get all sue happy, you could force it and take the maternity leave. But you are still someone who chose to have a child while shirking your responsibilities as a resident. I doubt you'd make many friends in your residency that way.

Fair enough - but its done every year. I have no idea when I will have kids, but like I said - pretty much every woman I've asked encouraged me to do it during residency claiming it was the best time.

I doubt anyone would have to force it to take the maternity leave, like I said - I've spoken to lots of women who've done it. I seriously doubt I would have to fight for my maternity leave during residency. Yes, I probably wouldn't be the favorite among my fellow residents. But I'm sure it wouldn't be tough to get from the superiors. Its federal law and I doubt they even mess with women by trying to deny them maternity leave.

Again, I'm not saying I will necessarily do it. But if I had to choose between making med school really hard, pissing off residency classmates, or pissing off my first boss. I'm gonna go with pissing off my residency classmates since they are the shortest part of my life and have the least effect on my future.

 

[smq123]

But if I had to choose between making med school really hard, pissing off residency classmates, or pissing off my first boss. I'm gonna go with pissing off my residency classmates since they are the shortest part of my life and have the least effect on my future.

Except that they evaluate you, which could prevent you from getting your top choice attending job.

And except for the fact that you can easily spend 70-80 hours a week with these people. I saw the residents more often than I saw my own family that I live with.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Except that they evaluate you, which could prevent you from getting your top choice attending job.

And except for the fact that you can easily spend 70-80 hours a week with these people. I saw the residents more often than I saw my own family that I live with.

I wasn't aware your fellow students evaluated you and effected your grade significantly - that kind of surprises me.

Still seems like it would make the most sense, and a lot of women do it, so it can't be that detrimental.

 

[smq123]

I wasn't aware your fellow students evaluated you and effected your grade significantly - that kind of surprises me.

I should probably be really clear - I am not totally sure if the other residents in your class evaluate you. They might, but I'm not quite sure. I am pretty sure that residents above you (i.e. your chief residents, etc) will evaluate you. Since they would also be affected by staffing changes, and would notice if your fellow residents felt like you were short-changing them, this could very well end up on an evaluation.

Still seems like it would make the most sense, and a lot of women do it, so it can't be that detrimental.

* One of my attendings said, "If you can work it, have children as an attending. It's much easier." Depends on who you talk to, I guess.

* It's probably also very specialty specific. In certain specialties (peds, family med, psych, and OB/Gyn, for example), taking maternity leave is probably better "tolerated." Surgery, however, is probably a whole other story.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I should probably be really clear - I am not totally sure if the other residents in your class evaluate you. They might, but I'm not quite sure. I am pretty sure that residents above you (i.e. your chief residents, etc) will evaluate you. Since they would also be affected by staffing changes, and would notice if your fellow residents felt like you were short-changing them, this could very well end up on an evaluation.

Ah. Makes sense - yeah I have no clue how residency evaluations work, so I'll take your word for it.

* One of my attendings said, "If you can work it, have children as an attending. It's much easier." Depends on who you talk to, I guess.

* It's probably also very specialty specific. In certain specialties (peds, family med, psych, and OB/Gyn, for example), taking maternity leave is probably better "tolerated." Surgery, however, is probably a whole other story.

And yeah - it totally depends on specialty and your future career plans. But also, if you aren't planning to be an attending and are going into a smaller private practice it could make it harder to take time off.

But yeah its totally specialty specific. I guess women should be realistic about which specialty they want and how much taking time off will effect the rest of the staff. But frankly, I think most women who want to have kids need to be realistic and choose lifestyle friendly specialties in the first place.

 

[Coastie]

Maternity leave in OB/GYN is one of the least tolerated acts during that residency from my experience, because the workload is so demanding. Every OB/GYN resident I've seen preggers is a graduating senior.

I should probably be really clear - I am not totally sure if the other residents in your class evaluate you. They might, but I'm not quite sure. I am pretty sure that residents above you (i.e. your chief residents, etc) will evaluate you. Since they would also be affected by staffing changes, and would notice if your fellow residents felt like you were short-changing them, this could very well end up on an evaluation.



* One of my attendings said, "If you can work it, have children as an attending. It's much easier." Depends on who you talk to, I guess.

* It's probably also very specialty specific. In certain specialties (peds, family med, psych, and OB/Gyn, for example), taking maternity leave is probably better "tolerated." Surgery, however, is probably a whole other story.

 

[Writer1985]

Getting pregnant when you don't want to get pregnant isn't being responsible, it's reckless. Wow, I can procreate! Look at me!

Ah, ok, I see why we're arguing. I'm talking from the point of view of children being planned. But planned or unplanned, maternity leave certainly shouldn't be an extended vacation from work, nor should it be taken every year. Reasonableness is key.

I wouldn't expect residents to be overjoyed about a colleague's pregnancy, but I would expect them to be adult about it and not go bitching and whining all the time. SDN's sort of a whine magnet, though, which is why I suspect this is blown out of proportion.

* It's probably also very specialty specific. In certain specialties (peds, family med, psych, and OB/Gyn, for example), taking maternity leave is probably better "tolerated." Surgery, however, is probably a whole other story.

Makes sense. Family-friendly programs probably also get ranked higher by women who intend to have children at some point during residency.

 

[BabyBop]

I'm not sure what makes you guys think that residency is the worst time to have babies, but practice will be so much easier. If anything, it could be worse depending on the situation. My OB/GYN, for example, is in a very busy practice of 6 young female OBs. They don't hire anyone else when someone is on maternity leave (which happens at least once or twice a year). She also told me pregnant ones don't take call past 34 weeks, and take 6 weeks off after the birth. So that's up to 12-13 weeks with one person down for calls. Of course, in this case, it's the partners' decision not to hire a locum, but still!

I personally think that med school is the best possible time, if you're ready of course. I pulled it off (twice!) and I still did really well. It didn't inconvenience anybody, and I didn't need any accommodations besides taking a test 2 weeks later than scheduled. It was harder, but being a parent makes a lot of things harder. And anyone who thinks taking 6 weeks off is just "hanging out with the baby" is plain ridiculous. Having a newborn is like being on call EVERY NIGHT. I was talking to an intern who just came back from maternity leave and she told me she sleeps more on her in-house call nights than she does at home!

Ladies, if you're ready, if you would be heartbroken not having biological children, and especially if you're a little older like I was, don't wait just because you think your co-residents will be upset with you for taking a few weeks off. Don't abuse it, of course, try to make up for it as much as possible, but have your babies. Your fellow residents aren't going to give you their eggs or be surrogates for you if you end up having trouble conceiving because you waited too long. It's a JOB. Your family is your LIFE.

 

[Shinken]

SDN's sort of a whine magnet, though, which is why I suspect this is blown out of proportion.

Ya think?!

I think part of the problem is most of the people doing the whining here are rather young and don't understand or have never experienced having children. They equate it to going to a party or getting drunk or whatever.

"Hey, if you can take time off to care for a baby why can't I take time off to go to Disneyland?!?!" Right....

People should *in an ideal world* try to plan their families better, but having children isn't like that. My wife and I are lucky (or unlucky, depending on your view) that we're too fertile. We were able to plan our babies almost to the month and day of birth. We had our second child during the summer of med school, and now we're planning our third for my internship year. She'll stay home with him/her and I'll keep on interning.

I have no problem whatsoever with other people having babies and taking a few months of leave because I understand what it takes (they probably are working harder than me at home...yes, maternity leave isn't sleeping in every morning and then cooing with your baby all day. As an intern on q2 call I'll probably get way more sleep and breaks than any mother in the first 6 months of having a baby).

 

[UnderdogMD]

I'm not sure what makes you guys think that residency is the worst time to have babies, but practice will be so much easier. If anything, it could be worse depending on the situation. My OB/GYN, for example, is in a very busy practice of 6 young female OBs. They don't hire anyone else when someone is on maternity leave (which happens at least once or twice a year). She also told me pregnant ones don't take call past 34 weeks, and take 6 weeks off after the birth. So that's up to 12-13 weeks with one person down for calls. Of course, in this case, it's the partners' decision not to hire a locum, but still!

I have no idea how residency works so honest questions.

What happens lets say if I was on that OB/GYN team and somebody took maternity leave. What if I said I refuse to work "extra" to facilitate anybody's life decision. Someone taking off (even a week) for sickness or death in the family is different to me than having a baby. I will do my share and work what the original schedule was supposed to be with the correct amount of people but would not pick up extra slack in the case of maternity leave. What would happen to me?

2nd, somebody explain maternity leave to me. I thought it was just allotted time that you are allowed to take off and then you are guaranteed a job when you get back. Is it paid time off? Are we really paying people to stay at home and raise their babies? What can I do as a man to be paid to stay at home and come back to a job waiting for me? I'm no doctor but I don't think I can get pregnant.

 

[yadayadadude]

I don't get why people feel some kind of entitlement because they have a child. Like they're something special. Wow, you had sex and got pregnant. Wow, I can procreate! Look at me!

Anyone who thinks the decision to have a child is an entirely private decision, with benefits conferred only to private individuals, should take a look at demographic projections for ... oh ... the entire developed world. There's a reason most European and some Asian governments are now creating programs to incentivize educated women to have more children. In some countries, women are paid to have children. (There was a recent slate.com piece on this ... I can scrounge it up if you'd like.)

The choice to have a child is entirely different from the choice to go on a drinking binge, from the perspective of society. Your hangover won't pay for my Social Security in forty years. But my kid WILL pay for yours.

 

[UnderdogMD]

Anyone who thinks the decision to have a child is an entirely private decision, with benefits conferred only to private individuals, should take a look at demographic projections for ... oh ... the entire developed world. There's a reason most European and some Asian governments are now creating programs to incentivize educated women to have more children. In some countries, women are paid to have children. (There was a recent slate.com piece on this ... I can scrounge it up if you'd like.)

The choice to have a child is entirely different from the choice to go on a drinking binge, from the perspective of society. Your hangover won't pay for my Social Security in forty years. But my kid WILL pay for yours.

Nobody is telling women not have babies we (at least I) was talking about residency. I'm not sure that not having babies during residency will lead to underpopulation. Slippery slope?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I think this is getting somewhat blown out of proportion. The facts (as I see them):

- women get pregnant during residency
- both parents are entitled to parental leave when they have or adopt a baby
- the amount of time you are given is up to your employer
- FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) can be used, up to 12 weeks, but is non-paid
- paid parental leave is somewhat unusual in the US, but again depends on the program
- most people use a combination of whatever leave the program gives plus vacation, short term disability, etc.
- so yes, you are required by law to have parental leave and not to have your job taken away because of the leave, but your employer, in the US, is NOT required to pay you for that leave
- senior residents and attendings do evaluate the junior residents

Most importantly, IMHO, is that everyone recognizes that women can and do get pregnant during residency, but their reaction varies based on a couple of things:

- how much of an ass they are in general; that is, there are some people who refuse to play well in the sandbox if it does not benefit them. You will never win these people over, no matter how hard you work, they will complain bitterly about you and what you've "done to them";
- how much of an ass YOU are in general; if you have a history of being the kind of resident who refuses to help others (ie, when someone wants to change call schedules), tries to use their gender or their pregnancy to get out of work, and in general, refuses to recognize that your pregnancy and subsequent leave means more work for your colleagues, then it is likely that they will be fairly bitter about your parental leave

Obviously the frequency with which parental leave happens depends on the field and is much more common in specialties with more women (natch). I am aware of few males who took full paternity leave and even fewer who took any without being derided.

Surgery is not particularly family friendly but we had several residents who had babies during their lab years...this only impacts the lab, as they did not participate in the call schedule while in the lab, so the impact on their surgical colleagues was minimal. Most of the males who's wives had babies during residency took vacation time around the delivery, so a planned scheduled time off.

Despite my "facts" above, it would be disingenuous for me to talk about what its like in other fields where having babies are more common during residency but I would still venture that if you have been a hard-worker, who has planned this pregnancy and done everything you can to smoothe the transition for your colleagues, it will be as well received as possible.

I will also venture that some of your colleagues may not be sympathetic when you take several weeks off to "recover" after a vaginal birth (as one poster in another thread mentioned that she couldn't possibly start fellowship only 6 weeks after childbirth). We have all taken care of women who are post-partum or are personally familiar with the recovery; in almost all cases, you do not need 6 weeks to recover from the pain of a vaginal birth. Certainly C-Sections are more painful and require a little more time off, but again we know "regular" women who are back to work much sooner because they don't have leave...so it begs the question as to why some people seem to need more time to "recover". I expect to receive a lot of flak here from women who have delivered regarding this statement but I have heard it time and time again...so I know others feel as I do.

Whether or not its better to have a baby during medical school, residency and early attending years, is really up to your field, your age, your partner's ability to assist in childcare and your practice environment when you get out (if you are in an employed position rather than private practice, the former is usually easier to coordinate with childbirth.). The exact time is probably not as important as how you coordinate it and manage any potential complications.

 

[BabyBop]

I have no idea how residency works so honest questions.

What happens lets say if I was on that OB/GYN team and somebody took maternity leave. What if I said I refuse to work "extra" to facilitate anybody's life decision. Someone taking off (even a week) for sickness or death in the family is different to me than having a baby. I will do my share and work what the original schedule was supposed to be with the correct amount of people but would not pick up extra slack in the case of maternity leave. What would happen to me?

2nd, somebody explain maternity leave to me. I thought it was just allotted time that you are allowed to take off and then you are guaranteed a job when you get back. Is it paid time off? Are we really paying people to stay at home and raise their babies? What can I do as a man to be paid to stay at home and come back to a job waiting for me? I'm no doctor but I don't think I can get pregnant.

OK I was talking about a group of private practice OBs, not residents. I have no idea what would happen to you if you refused to take extra call as a resident. I'm thinking you would be having an unpleasant meeting with the chief, at best.

Maternity leave is, in most cases, unpaid in this country (unless the employer decides to make it paid in the benefits package). You can use your vacation days or sick days if you want to have it paid, but it's otherwise unpaid. FYI, you are not *raising* any baby while on maternity leave. You are recovering from a major body change (or a major abdominal surgery if you had a C-section) while not sleeping more than 90 minutes at a stretch for weeks to months. Why don't you try to set your alarm every 2 hours and stay up for 30 minutes everytime it rings next time you have surgery?

 

[BabyBop]

I like your new picture, Dr. Cox.

 

[jdh71]

I think this is getting somewhat blown out of proportion. The facts (as I see them):

- women get pregnant during residency

Happens to the best of us, but obviously this is as much a truism as we're going to find here on this thread

- how much of an ass YOU are in general; if you have a history of being the kind of resident who refuses to help others (ie, when someone wants to change call schedules), tries to use their gender or their pregnancy to get out of work, and in general, refuses to recognize that your pregnancy and subsequent leave means more work for your colleagues, then it is likely that they will be fairly bitter about your parental leave

Exactly! Which was the sort of attitude I was reacting to

I would still venture that if you have been a hard-worker, who has planned this pregnancy and done everything you can to smoothe the transition for your colleagues, it will be as well received as possible.

You know Dr. Cox, you seem much too nice and reasonable to be a surgeon . . . did they know this about you when they accepted you to surgical residency and eventually a staff position?

 

[BabyBop]

I will also venture that some of your colleagues may not be sympathetic when you take several weeks off to "recover" after a vaginal birth (as one poster in another thread mentioned that she couldn't possibly start fellowship only 6 weeks after childbirth). We have all taken care of women who are post-partum or are personally familiar with the recovery; in almost all cases, you do not need 6 weeks to recover from the pain of a vaginal birth. Certainly C-Sections are more painful and require a little more time off, but again we know "regular" women who are back to work much sooner because they don't have leave...so it begs the question as to why some people seem to need more time to "recover". I expect to receive a lot of flak here from women who have delivered regarding this statement but I have heard it time and time again...so I know others feel as I do.

I've had 2 babies (vag) and the third is coming any day now. I do think 4 weeks is a minimum. I've gone back to school at one week post-partum with the second, but this wasn't as demanding as a resident position, and I did a whole lot of video-watching. However, I don't think that means anyone can and should do it. Different bodies react differently to delivery/newborn parenting, just like different people react differently to the same surgery or illness.

Anyway, I don't think I could competently work full-time before 4 weeks. As I said above, after the first week or so, it's not so much about the pain of delivery as it is about the utter exhaustion, which seems to peak at 3 weeks every time. The whole experience was somewhat less overwhelming with my second though, and I bounced back sooner. I don't think I felt normal/rested either time until baby was 6-9 months old though, and that was without any night call. Just my experience.

 

[UnderdogMD]

You know Dr. Cox, you seem much too nice and reasonable to be a surgeon . . . did they know this about you when they accepted you to surgical residency and eventually a staff position?

Seconded, the voice of reason in this thread. Also, thanks for facts Dr. Cox.

I must admit that my reactions are partially framed by Dr. Currier and her antics and I am probably overreacting.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I like your new picture, Dr. Cox.

Thanks...I get tired of the same old avatar (and people who don't watch Scrubs thinking it was actually me). I've got most of the Admins Simpsonized as well!

 

[Winged Scapula]

You know Dr. Cox, you seem much too nice and reasonable to be a surgeon . . . did they know this about you when they accepted you to surgical residency and eventually a staff position?

I'm not sure if they knew before (at least residency) but I have been told many times I'm "too nice to be a surgeon". But don't worry, I can be a PITA as much as the next surgeon if I don't get my way!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I've had 2 babies (vag) and the third is coming any day now. I do think 4 weeks is a minimum. I've gone back to school at one week post-partum with the second, but this wasn't as demanding as a resident position, and I did a whole lot of video-watching. However, I don't think that means anyone can and should do it. Different bodies react differently to delivery/newborn parenting, just like different people react differently to the same surgery or illness.

Anyway, I don't think I could competently work full-time before 4 weeks. As I said above, after the first week or so, it's not so much about the pain of delivery as it is about the utter exhaustion, which seems to peak at 3 weeks every time. The whole experience was somewhat less overwhelming with my second though, and I bounced back sooner. I don't think I felt normal/rested either time until baby was 6-9 months old though, and that was without any night call. Just my experience.

Obviously everyone has a different reaction/experience and I know even from just having an (albeit emergency) lap procedure that I felt exhausted and nauseated for about 10 days.

I guess my feeling is that is really depends on your field and what clinical duties are required and that as you point out, you are going to be exhausted for far longer than the usual length of parental leave. Since a lot of clinical duties can be done sitting down or with minimal physical exertion I might suggest that part-time duties or at least activities which lessen the work for your colleagues but don't cause you undo harm or discomfort might be a plausible middle ground.

But never having had a child, its easy for me to say, isn't it?!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Men can get paternity leave in most jobs too so get married and have your wife have kids.

heck, you don't even have to get married...just father or adopt a child and stay home with the baby. I'm sure you would find a fair number of women who would take you up on it.

 

[BabyBop]

I agree about part-time work or anything to lessen the workload. That's a fair compromise. The first 2-3 weeks are really overwhelming though, especially as a first-time parent, even with all the help in the world. Of course, I always breastfeed exclusively so that doesn't make things any easier. People say breastfeeding is best for Mom and baby, I really think it's best for Daddy .

 

[Jwax]

I think this is getting somewhat blown out of proportion. The facts (as I see them)

Very well said (I just didn't want to quote the whole thing). I think that pretty well answers any question and leaves me with little or nothing (of substance) to add.

Just want to direct a comment to jdh - I've had a cool head the whole time. It isn't an issue that gets deep enough under my skin to really get mad about it. Despite what anyone on this thread tries to say, women will plan their pregnancies according to what is best for them, their partners, financial sti, how it effects other, etc. I imagine most women would take into account how their "condition" will effect others. The problem for you and any others who are in your boat, is that the impact of pregnancy on the co-residents is probably not going to be as high of a concern on the parent-to-be's list of concerns. While you may think this is wrong, I think that is how it should be. The timing of having a child will make a permanent impact on the parents lives, but it will only have a minor, temporary impact on the other residents. That being said, I would definitely consider myself the kind of person who is sensitive to others' feelings / attitudes / opinions, and I rarely will ask for help, so I imagine I wouldn't be the kind of pregnant woman who just lounges about saying, Oh I can't do that! I'm pregnant! Think Dr. Bailey from Grey's Anatomy, only I'm not quite that tough.

Personally, I think if I were ready have to kids soon, I would do it in medical school because (despite how time consuming it already is), the time for family is going to decrease for many years to come. But alas, I'm way too selfish at this point in my life to devote all my spare time to someone else.

Again - well said, Dr. Cox. Thanks for your logic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I must admit that my reactions are partially framed by Dr. Currier and her antics and I am probably overreacting.

Don't forget she's going into Path...and we know they are a little weird!

 

[UnderdogMD]

.

 

[jdh71]

Despite what anyone on this thread tries to say, women will plan their pregnancies according to what is best for them, their partners, financial sti, how it effects other, etc. I imagine most women would take into account how their "condition" will effect others. The problem for you and any others who are in your boat, is that the impact of pregnancy on the co-residents is probably not going to be as high of a concern on the parent-to-be's list of concerns. While you may think this is wrong, I think that is how it should be. The timing of having a child will make a permanent impact on the parents lives, but it will only have a minor, temporary impact on the other residents. That being said, I would definitely consider myself the kind of person who is sensitive to others' feelings / attitudes / opinions, and I rarely will ask for help, so I imagine I wouldn't be the kind of pregnant woman who just lounges about saying, Oh I can't do that! I'm pregnant!

While I'm hearing a much clearer sense of personal responsibility, you still seem a bit unapologetic and entitled to do things the way you want to do them irrespective of the way your choices will ripple into the lives of others. It's an attitude. I find that problematic. You see, pregnancies do happen, and most pregnancies are unplanned. The attitude of "I have to do what best for me only - sorry - sucks to be you" is crap, but when one is approached with "hey, guys I'm pregnanant (planned or not), and I know that my eventual absence and need for lighter duty will put a work strain on the rest of you, I know it's not fair or right, but I need your help and support" - do you see the difference in tone an attitude? I'm completely ON BOARD with the second sentiment.

BTW, DR. Bailey is a character on a TV drama, an I do not doubt the toughness of the pregnant female, but you must be relaistic. I have had the privilege of being the husband to a pregnant woman - she's a RN, worked hard up until preterm labor put her in bed at 36 wks and some of the things she was doing at work was completely INAPPROPRIATE for a pregnant female, but she was going to be "tough". So, can't always be both - the pregnancy and the baby that will be born will of necessity become the most important factors - this is natural and appropriate, but a responsible person should recognize this and be mature enough to know that they will not be able to always do EVERYTHING and be everything at all times.

As my indian post-doc friend likes to say, "Do you take my meaning?"

 

[TexasRose]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

Dr Currier appears to be someone just trying to take extreme advantage of the system. If her excuse had been for a physical impairment (say...carpal tunnel?), this never would have turned into a heated discussion about women's right to procreate during residency.

As for the residency thing, I only know what my future program does. It's pediatrics, and yes, we're known to be more flexible about the whole thing than say, surgery. Residents who take time off for maternity leave (or any other leave) make up that time at the end of the residency. So you see a handful of PL3's extending into Aug-Sept every year. Our program plans for this. People expect it. I haven't seen anyone resentful or ticked off about it. It's not as if there's extra call on the month that the resident is having her baby.

I think it's silly to expect women to return to work before 4-6 weeks. Who wants a doctor whose pining for her 3 week old infant who is too young to be in childcare, who isn't sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time every night (not just call nights!), whose breasts leak every time she hears an infant cry and who is mentally too fatigued to do her best job? 6 weeks is reasonable for the average woman. Women who can return to 80 hour weeks 2-3 weeks after the baby is born are rare exceptions.

My final anecdotal comment. I have a friend who had 2 children during her ENT residency. She made up all her call ahead of time by taking extra call during her pregnancy. Yes, her fellow residents had more call for 6 weeks, but they had a third the regular call schedule in the months prior to this. Seems to me a fair and adult arrangement.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I
It's not as if there's extra call on the month that the resident is having her baby.

Sure there is. The number of days in the week does not change, but the number of people to cover it (call) does when one person is off for leave (for whatever reasons). Therefore, if there are 4 residents who take call q4, it the becomes 3 residents with call q3 to cover for the resident who is gone. Its wondeful that your program expects it and handles it well, but it would be remiss of us not to remind others that not all programs (and even those not in surgery) are not that way.

I think it's silly to expect women to return to work before 4-6 weeks. Who wants a doctor whose pining for her 3 week old infant who is too young to be in childcare, who isn't sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time every night (not just call nights!), whose breasts leak every time she hears an infant cry and who is mentally too fatigued to do her best job? 6 weeks is reasonable for the average woman. Women who can return to 80 hour weeks 2-3 weeks after the baby is born are rare exceptions.

And that's fine. But there are lots of women who don't come back after 6 weeks, or 8 weeks, perhaps not until 12 weeks. That's when it becomes a problem.

My final anecdotal comment. I have a friend who had 2 children during her ENT residency. She made up all her call ahead of time by taking extra call during her pregnancy. Yes, her fellow residents had more call for 6 weeks, but they had a third the regular call schedule in the months prior to this. Seems to me a fair and adult arrangement.

I"ve seen that done only rarely, but I agree its a great way to resolve some issues that might arise. Unfortunately, many of the programs either won't allow it (ENT is often home call...which doesn't count toward the 80 hrs unless you come in) or can't do it or the pregnant women is unwilling to make this concession. So it might not work if you are already on q3 or 4 call because you would easily exceed the work hour limits by taking more in-house call. But a worthwhile idea for those with home call rotations or specialties.

 

[Jwax]

While I'm hearing a much clearer sense of personal responsibility, you still seem a bit unapologetic and entitled to do things the way you want to do them irrespective of the way your choices will ripple into the lives of others. It's an attitude. I find that problematic. You see, pregnancies do happen, and most pregnancies are unplanned. The attitude of "I have to do what best for me only - sorry - sucks to be you" is crap, but when one is approached with "hey, guys I'm pregnanant (planned or not), and I know that my eventual absence and need for lighter duty will put a work strain on the rest of you, I know it's not fair or right, but I need your help and support" - do you see the difference in tone an attitude? I'm completely ON BOARD with the second sentiment.

BTW, DR. Bailey is a character on a TV drama, an I do not doubt the toughness of the pregnant female, but you must be relaistic. I have had the privilege of being the husband to a pregnant woman - she's a RN, worked hard up until preterm labor put her in bed at 36 wks and some of the things she was doing at work was completely INAPPROPRIATE for a pregnant female, but she was going to be "tough". So, can't always be both - the pregnancy and the baby that will be born will of necessity become the most important factors - this is natural and appropriate, but a responsible person should recognize this and be mature enough to know that they will not be able to always do EVERYTHING and be everything at all times.

As my indian post-doc friend likes to say, "Do you take my meaning?"

Yes, I take your meaning, and I respect and understand your point of view. You are correct that I seem unapologetic about doing what I think is best for my life. I am. I'm a very independent, stubborn, opinionated girl. I can be incredibly selfish and irritating. I know this, and so I do my best to present myself (in the real world, not SDN threads) as someone who does care about my impact of my action on others. I do care about the impact of my choices on others, but I care less about that impact than I do on how my choices effect me. I highly, highly doubt when I get pregnant I will approach my co-workers in a "Hey, I'm pregnant. Deal with it" kind of way, but I also highly doubt that when trying to plan my personal family life I am going to think "Oh, no, I can't have kids now - my co-workers might have to work harder!". Yes that is selfish, but I hope to make up for it in other ways. I like the poster's above idea of taking extra call while I still can, but I don't know how realistic that will be (don't know enough about residency yet, but I imagine I will be working the full 80 hrs every week as it is).

Yes, I recognize Bailey is a character on a tv show. It seemed like an easy example that most of us would recognize. I am sorta realistic and realize that I just won't physically be able to do what I want to (to be "tough" as I want), but I will do my best. I certainly can't imagine taking off three months, although I can see why new mothers would want to (I also can't see jumping back in after only 4 weeks, either).

Anyways... I'm rambling when I should be studying. Point: if we were both residents together and I got pregnant (planned or unplanned), I wouldn't shove it in your face and be an ass about it. I would be sympathetic and apologetic for the inconvenience that it would cause you, and I would do my best to make it as easy on you and our co-residents as possible. Yet my choices effect me generally to a much greater extent than they will effect you, and as such, that will be my primary concern.

 

[smq123]

You are correct that I seem unapologetic about doing what I think is best for my life. I am. I'm a very independent, stubborn, opinionated girl. I can be incredibly selfish and irritating.

Oh. Wow. I think we can safely add "blunt" to that list.

I highly, highly doubt when I get pregnant I will approach my co-workers in a "Hey, I'm pregnant. Deal with it" kind of way, but I also highly doubt that when trying to plan my personal family life I am going to think "Oh, no, I can't have kids now - my co-workers might have to work harder!". Yes that is selfish, but I hope to make up for it in other ways.

I don't think that the effect of a planned pregnancy on your co-residents should be on the top of your list, but I do think that it is a concern that will probably come up. How you cooperate with the other residents is very important. Like I said, you spend vast amounts of time with them (more time than with you will spend with your husband, probably), and their schedule really depends on you. (Yes, they emphasize "teamwork" during MS1 for a pretty good reason.)

I know - we shouldn't be giving you a hard time about this, seeing as residency is a good 4 years away for you, but there is no "hoping" to make up for it in other ways. You almost definitely SHOULD make up for it in other ways. On my last rotation, when one of the interns asked another intern to come in early and cover the last few hours of his shift. When he told the chief resident about this arrangement, the first question out of her mouth was, "And how are you going to pay her back?" Yes - it matters.

 

[Jwax]

Oh. Wow. I think we can safely add "blunt" to that list.

I know - we shouldn't be giving you a hard time about this, seeing as residency is a good 4 years away for you, but there is no "hoping" to make up for it in other ways. You almost definitely SHOULD make up for it in other ways. On my last rotation, when one of the interns asked another intern to come in early and cover the last few hours of his shift. When he told the chief resident about this arrangement, the first question out of her mouth was, "And how are you going to pay her back?" Yes - it matters.

Yes, blunt should be on the list. I'm trying to convert "blunt" to "tactful, yet honest", but there is little point in sugar-coating an online opinion. I know most of my faults, and I try my best to keep them underwraps.

The reality is I know nothing of the ways in which I could make it up to other residents. It's not like I need to switch one night of call; it's pretty hard to actually make up for ditching out for weeks on the team. So, in saying that I will hopefully make it up to them, I mean I will try to do what I can, but no amount of nicety and good attitude will make my teamates any happier about doing extra calls. It isn't that I think that it doesn't matter, I just don't logistically know how it would work out... that there is actually anything I could really do to make it up to them.

But yeah, you're right - it's going to be ~6 years before I have kids (during last year of residency or shortly thereafter). So it's really an issue I hadn't put much thought into until this thread came up. Maybe I'll think about it some more during the next six years and come up with a more amicable solution that fits what I want, too.

I think that test block week will be my "pick fights on SDN" week. It's much better than picking fights w/my S.O. or classmates (not that I haven't done both). So - everything I'm saying is a form of "I hate studying and I'm irritated about it." On that note, back to biochem....