New mom sues medical licensing board

[lilnoelle]

Taking just one year off would really mess with your program. It's not like they could pick up a PGY-2 for just a year. In addition, if you wanted to return as a PGY-2 that would require an opening in the class behind you, which may or may not happen depending on the program. It's not like programs can arbitrarily add a spot for you in this situation - the number of spots each program has each year is regulated. Also if you were in a busy program and they didn't replace you, your classmates are now stuck with a much-increased workload. Whether it's right or not that they resent you for that, you are certainly NOT going to be very popular when you return.

Obviously you are entitled to whatever the FMLA (family and medical leave act or some similar thing) says you are, but taking more than a certain number of weeks off can mean that you are required to repeat the year to be eligible to sit for your boards.

How is it that residents are able to take time off for research then?

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[alwaysaangel]

She's done it! I didn't think she could be more idiotic but she's done it!!

http://www.telegram.com/article/20070921/APN/709210716

Appealing and putting off her test until after the appeal decision is made. I hope she puts it off until its too late for her to take her residency position at MGH and it goes to someone more deserving!

 

[ForbiddenComma]

All she has to do is PASS and she gets a slot at MGH?

wow... whining beats working I guess...

 

[alwaysaangel]

All she has to do is PASS and she gets a slot at MGH?

wow... whining beats working I guess...

Seriously. Also, is my understanding correct that half of the step 2 is the standardized patient clinical test? Which is fairly subjective based on well-trained standardized patients?

 

[alwaysaangel]

Also, she unlocked her blog - but deleted all the comments and disabled further commenting. I'm so glad she cares what her peers (breast feeding mothers, medical students and breast feeding medical students) think about her.

This just verifies that this is a completely selfish fight that she is doing for her own means. It has nothing to do with anyone else or other breast feeding mothers. I think she realized a while ago she's hurting breast feeding mothers more than helping them. She is one of the first women to ever make me ashamed of my sex.

 

[mave]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you encouraged to take your Step 2s as early as possible so that residency directors see it? Especially if you had a good Step 1 score?

 

[alwaysaangel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you encouraged to take your Step 2s as early as possible so that residency directors see it? Especially if you had a good Step 1 score?

I think its more important if you had a bad step 1 score.

But she has had TONS of time to take it. After her clinical years she took a year and a half off!! She should have had her daughter then or taken her test then. Why wait 1.5 years and then do both at the same time is beyond me!

 

[Winged Scapula]

How is it that residents are able to take time off for research then?

Because that is "built-in" to the program.

For example, lets say you have 4 categorical residents per year and they enter the lab after PGY-2. As those 4 enter the lab, 4 come out to "replace" them in the PGY-3 year. A continual turn-over.

Some programs require lab time, others suggest it and it usually works out, with an even number going in and coming out. I have seen, however, some residents be told they had to delay a year, or start sooner, because of the staffing issues. But during my residency only saw that once.

 

[baylormed]

Okay, okay.

Do you girls hear that? Nobody have babies, lest it inconvenience somebody at your workplace. Don't get married, either. Who do you think you are? A normal human being? No, ma'am. You are a doctor. You don't get to have a life.



Done. Anything else?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Seriously. Also, is my understanding correct that half of the step 2 is the standardized patient clinical test? Which is fairly subjective based on well-trained standardized patients?

No...she is retaking the Clinical Knowledge test which is the computerized MCQ portion of Step 2.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Also, she unlocked her blog - but deleted all the comments and disabled further commenting. I'm so glad she cares what her peers (breast feeding mothers, medical students and breast feeding medical students) think about her.

This just verifies that this is a completely selfish fight that she is doing for her own means. It has nothing to do with anyone else or other breast feeding mothers. I think she realized a while ago she's hurting breast feeding mothers more than helping them. She is one of the first women to ever make me ashamed of my sex.

What? I'm frankly suprised she didn't keep the few comments that agreed with her, but perhaps she has *some* sense that that would appear to be rather selfish. Maybe her attorneys have advised her not to comment publically on the issue (which they should have).

But really, this just gets more and more ridiculous every time I read about it. I don't think she "realizes" anything...I think she is totally self-absorbed and has decided that those who disagree with her must be wrong. Typical elitist, narcissistic attitude.

 

[alwaysaangel]

No...she is retaking the Clinical Knowledge test which is the computerized MCQ portion of Step 2.

Oh ok. So she passed the standardized patient part (we can assume)?

Cuz I just thought it would be hilarious if she failed the standardized patient part and sued them on the basis that they were mad about her law suit.

...and by hilarious I of course mean ridiculous and pathetic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Oh ok. So she passed the standardized patient part (we can assume)?

Cuz I just thought it would be hilarious if she failed the standardized patient part and sued them on the basis that they were mad about her law suit.

...and by hilarious I of course mean ridiculous and pathetic.

I dunno...sounds like it. But you guys (current students) would know more about the Step 2 CK and CS than I, although I assume she has passed it since she said this test is all she has to do to start residency.

I hope they give her position to someone else and deny her deferral (wishful thinking, I know).

 

[Winged Scapula]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you encouraged to take your Step 2s as early as possible so that residency directors see it? Especially if you had a good Step 1 score?

Not generally. As noted above, many students will only take Step 2 if they DIDN'T do well on Step 1, preferring to put off the second part until after the match, lest doing poorly reflects badly on their application.

Obviously Dr. Currier had some sense to take it later, because it sounds like she might not have matched if she applied with a failure on Step 2.

 

[Shalom77]

But really, this just gets more and more ridiculous every time I read about it. I don't think she "realizes" anything...I think she is totally self-absorbed and has decided that those who disagree with her must be wrong. Typical elitist, narcissistic attitude.

One of the things that really irritates me about this whole case - is that she has got to be the worst "poster child" for the cause of allowing more break time to accomodate breast feeding.

Because of her ADHD/dyslexia she already has time accommodations and a private testing room (which of course gives her breast feeding options that others don't have.)

If she had no accomodations I can see her point - but it seems ridiculous given the extra time/private room that she already has.

In the process she makes people with ADHD/dyslexia look bad AND if she fails it makes it harder for women who don't have a private room etc (since most don't) to change the USMLE's policies.

Although I've never breastfead had a child - I could see how it would be hard to pump twice in the 45 minutes allotted and would not be opposed to extending the break time by 20 minutes or whatever to accomodate that. I don't think it would be unfair.

Just one small point - I think it was only in the beginning of grad school she had people read to her later she got a computer and a scanner. With OCR recognition, etc - computers can now read most things outloud. It's still a harder way to learn when you think about it because all speed reading courses teach how not to read the words outloud in one's head - having to do that really slows things down. I'd think pathology would probably work well since in other clinical settings (mostly inpatient?) there's a lot of reading of handwritten notes still - although I guess as things become more computerized that might change.

 

[psychophobia]

Also, she unlocked her blog - but deleted all the comments and disabled further commenting. I'm so glad she cares what her peers (breast feeding mothers, medical students and breast feeding medical students) think about her.

This just verifies that this is a completely selfish fight that she is doing for her own means. It has nothing to do with anyone else or other breast feeding mothers. I think she realized a while ago she's hurting breast feeding mothers more than helping them. She is one of the first women to ever make me ashamed of my sex.

Very interesting! Her blog is now all about breastfeeding women in the workplace. What has that got to do with taking USMLE and her suit against NBME? Nothing, but the only "laws" protecting breastfeeding have to do with workplace conditions. Nice legal maneuver.

You may not be able to leave comments at her blog, but she gives her e-mail address as [email protected]

Check her out on this morning's CBS morning show. http://cbs11tv.com/consumer/local_story_255090041.html

Her attorney says she has to eat and pump while sitting on the toilet! What! Where are the hard-hitting follow up questions. Where are the investigative journalists? Where's Katie Couric??

 

[alwaysaangel]

Very interesting! Her blog is now all about breastfeeding women in the workplace. What has that got to do with taking USMLE and her suit against NBME? Nothing, but the only "laws" protecting breastfeeding have to do with workplace conditions. Nice legal maneuver.

It always was - she made that blog a week ago for this specifically.

You may not be able to leave comments at her blog, but she gives her e-mail address as [email protected]

Honestly, I'm afraid she'd sue me for harassment or discrimination.

 

[psychophobia]

It always was - she made that blog a week ago for this specifically.

Honestly, I'm afraid she'd sue me for harassment or discrimination.

Yup. Don't disagree with her publically. She's taking names and kicking butt!

 

[baylormed]

It always was - she made that blog a week ago for this specifically.

Honestly, I'm afraid she'd sue me for harassment or discrimination.

She erased her more specific posts (or edited them) about the USMLE and the exam. It now focuses on the *working-moms*. Funny, because she's not a working mom, she's taking a test.

 

[alwaysaangel]

She erased her more specific posts (or edited them) about the USMLE and the exam. It now focuses on the *working-moms*. Funny, because she's not a working mom, she's taking a test.

Oh I see what you're saying. I just want to smack her - she is really annoying in the CBS interview and its totally one-sided.

 

[Jwax]

Okay, okay.

Do you girls hear that? Nobody have babies, lest it inconvenience somebody at your workplace. Don't get married, either. Who do you think you are? A normal human being? No, ma'am. You are a doctor. You don't get to have a life.

Done. Anything else?

Yep, only male doctors can have kids.

 

[Miami_med]

She said in some of the original articles that all she needs to do is pass.

Apparently a residency at MGH requires:

A) Really good board scores, strong letters, an impeccable work ethic, a lot of luck

or

B) Being a dyslexic with ADHD and exploding breasts.

I claim discrimination, because it's not my fault that my endogenous estrogen deficiency associated with Y chromosome syndrome prevents me from being able to have my breasts explode too.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

If i were a program director i would never allow some lawsuit happy medical student in.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Apparently a residency at MGH requires:

A) Really good board scores, strong letters, an impeccable work ethic, a lot of luck

or

B) Being a dyslexic with ADHD and exploding breasts.

I claim discrimination, because it's not my fault that my endogenous estrogen deficiency associated with Y chromosome syndrome prevents me from being able to have my breasts explode too.

The funny part is that my mom had some pathology slides read at MGH and then shipped across town to Beth Israel where they were read differently. Our insurance allows a third opinion when the first two differ, so they were then read by a super-duper (yes, that's an official term) expert in California who agreed with the BI read and said that whoever read them at MGH is a "*****."

The fact that they would take someone who failed Step 2 CK further informs this point of view, I guess!

 

[HumidBeing]

I'm not sure that there IS a connection, but her last name is Currier, one of the wealthiest names in this country. The Curriers were heir to the Mellon fortune. Money has flowed into Harvard from the Mellon and Currier fortunes. Buildings are named Currier and Mellon. She went to Harvard. There seem to be quite a few last names Currier who attended Harvard and went into medicine........hmmm, I wonder if there is any connection between this and the expectations of entitlement?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm not sure that there IS a connection, but her last name is Currier, one of the wealthiest names in this country. The Curriers were heir to the Mellon fortune. Money has flowed into Harvard from the Mellon and Currier fortunes. Buildings are named Currier and Mellon. She went to Harvard. There seem to be quite a few last names Currier who attended Harvard and went into medicine........hmmm, I wonder if there is any connection between this and the expectations of entitlement?

According to the article posted on the first page of this discussion, her father is a real estate broker. I'm guessing that some money and influence are there -- otherwise, it seems a little far-fetched that everyone recognized her math and science talents in spite of her severe reading problems.

 

[Tired]

Do you girls hear that? Nobody have babies, lest it inconvenience somebody at your workplace. Don't get married, either. Who do you think you are? A normal human being? No, ma'am. You are a doctor. You don't get to have a life.

Or the flipside: No one expect to take any vacation or go home on time, since covering baylormed's shifts take priority. After all, it takes a village to raise a baby, and your contribution to the health and well-being of her infant is to do all her work for her.

 

[smq123]

Do you girls hear that? Nobody have babies, lest it inconvenience somebody at your workplace. Don't get married, either. Who do you think you are? A normal human being? No, ma'am. You are a doctor. You don't get to have a life.

Done. Anything else?

I know you're being sarcastic, but think about what Tired is saying - if you take 3 months off for maternity leave, who's going to cover your shifts and pick up your patients? They can't hire a temp or something - residency programs don't work that way.

Most residents are understanding, and if someone gets pregnant, things work out. But you have to admit that Tired's concerns are valid.

(I'm a girl as well, by the way.)

 

[akpete]

Very interesting! Her blog is now all about breastfeeding women in the workplace. What has that got to do with taking USMLE and her suit against NBME? Nothing, but the only "laws" protecting breastfeeding have to do with workplace conditions. Nice legal maneuver.

You may not be able to leave comments at her blog, but she gives her e-mail address as [email protected]

Check her out on this morning's CBS morning show. http://cbs11tv.com/consumer/local_story_255090041.html

Her attorney says she has to eat and pump while sitting on the toilet! What! Where are the hard-hitting follow up questions. Where are the investigative journalists? Where's Katie Couric??

I find it entertaining how Currie and her lawyer don't actually ever answer the few questions they're challenged with.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Okay, okay.

Do you girls hear that? Nobody have babies, lest it inconvenience somebody at your workplace. Don't get married, either. Who do you think you are? A normal human being? No, ma'am. You are a doctor. You don't get to have a life.



Done. Anything else?

Having a baby is not a medical condition. It's a consious decision to have a child, especially for a medical student who should know how the process works.

What if I decided to get a piercing? Should I get extra time to stay at home or take extra breaks during my rounds to care for it? Or maybe I want to get married? Should I be able to reschedule my USMLE or classes around that, or sue the school/hospital if they won't let me have time off?

What about if I like to take trips on cruise ships? Play softball? Take a class to improve my piano skills?

If you make the decision to have a child, you have to take your other responsibilities in life into consideration just like everyone else does. You can't just make the excuse "well, I have a child therefore you must make concessions, not me!". Take some adult responsibility in your life and quit expecting everyone else to shoulder your responsibilities.

Look, you go into medical school and residency knowing full well that there are schedules to meet, tests to take, crap to do that absorb ALL of your time. What ass goes ahead and decides to have a child, then expects everyone to change the rules to accomodate them? It'd be different once you are in the working world where you can take time off to have a child, but the 7 years in medical school/residency is known to have many challenges that make many things that we'd all like to do in our lives (get married, take long trips, have children, party late into the night, whatever) impossible or difficult to do. If you decide to do other things during that time, it's your problem on how you are going to make it all fit in.

 

[Writer1985]

Funny how this thread has degenerated from bashing the manipulative whininess of Sophie Currier to making blanket statements about how female residents shouldn't have kids because it makes life harder for everyone else.

Women are 29-31 by the time they finish residency (and that's if they go straight through from college). It's unreasonable to expect women to put their reproductive lives on hold for that long, especially given the decreased chance of conception and the increased risk of many birth defects. Also, resident maternity leave isn't months-long or anything -- the policies that Google returned are pretty much all 4 weeks + 2 weeks vacation time if absolutely necessary.

I can understand resentment at women who abuse the system, though. Like Sophie Currier. Let's get back to bashing her; that was more fun than this.

 

[baylormed]

Oh for heaven's sake, please take a step back. I don't even have children.

I am a woman, and eventually, chances are I will have kids. I never read the fine print, I guess, where it said that medicine was synonymous for celibacy.

Yes, having children is a possible choice in the future.

To the men that are so concerned that somebody's pregnancy is going to increase their workload, I understand your concerns. Stop attacking me because I'm not even asking for anything. I was pointing out how ridiculous your expectations were that women put all their interests aside for a JOB. Yes, it's a job, and when it comes down to it, I and my (maybe future) children are more important to me than a job. I'll take an unpaid leave if that's what it comes down to, no problem.

Also, I not only have a choice of when to have children, I have a choice of where to work, and who to work for. It is very possible that if an employer or a job isn't catering to my life choices, I'll just change jobs or go into private practice.

Many female physicians have had kids while working, and the system hasn't collapsed yet. The sky hasn't fallen, and it certainly isn't going to because they keep having them.

Besides, you are not immune to life, either. You don't have to push babies out of your body, but many other things can happen. What if you suddenly find yourself a single parent? What if a loved one gets sick and you want to take care of them? Isn't that a choice also? I am not going to resent you if you want to leave for a while to care for your dying [insert relative of choice here] for a few months. I don't see why you resent women for taking a leave to take care of their babies. Life doesn't stop because you go into medicine.

 

[Jwax]

Or the flipside: No one expect to take any vacation or go home on time, since covering baylormed's shifts take priority. After all, it takes a village to raise a baby, and your contribution to the health and well-being of her infant is to do all her work for her.

I know you're being sarcastic, but think about what Tired is saying - if you take 3 months off for maternity leave, who's going to cover your shifts and pick up your patients? They can't hire a temp or something - residency programs don't work that way.

Most residents are understanding, and if someone gets pregnant, things work out. But you have to admit that Tired's concerns are valid.

(I'm a girl as well, by the way.)

Yep, as rudely as he's saying it, he does have some sort of a point.

Many female physicians have had kids while working, and the system hasn't collapsed yet. The sky hasn't fallen, and it certainly isn't going to because they keep having them.

Besides, you are not immune to life, either. You don't have to push babies out of your body, but many other things can happen. What if you suddenly find yourself a single parent? What if a loved one gets sick and you want to take care of them? Isn't that a choice also? I am not going to resent you if you want to leave for a while to care for your dying [insert relative of choice here] for a few months. I don't see why you resent women for taking a leave to take care of their babies. Life doesn't stop because you go into medicine.

Impressive that many generations of female resident physicians have managed to have children and yet the sky hasn't fallen, as you so nicely put it. I imagine we probably would resent them somewhat if they took time off to take care of a dying relative because it would increase our already intense workload, resulting in our decrease in spending time with our families, which I imagine is somewhat of Tired's point. The other resident's have lives, and he feels their lives shouldn't be worsened by someone else's choice to have a child. Unfortunatley, that's just the way it works. As said by someone above, women are ~30 when they finish residency, which is oftentimes a dangerous time to start having kids. About 28 or 29 is as far as you want to push it (although my mom had me at ~34). Also you guys seem to forget that oftentimes children just kind of happen. I think I read a stat a while ago that said about 1/2 of all children were unplanned.

Anyways... we have deviated from the point of this thread, although this topic is fun to discuss, too. We were all pretty much on the same page for the Dr. currier issue.

 

[smq123]

As said by someone above, women are ~30 when they finish residency, which is oftentimes a dangerous time to start having kids. About 28 or 29 is as far as you want to push it (although my mom had me at ~34).

28 or 29? I'm curious as to where you got these numbers. Add another 10 years to those numbers, and you're more correct. 28 is a perfectly good age to start having kids. It is not "oftentimes a dangerous time" and that's not "as far as you want to push it." Being a 28 year old primip is fine.

I know that 34 sounds old to have kids, but when your mother had you, she didn't even qualify as AMA (Advanced Maternal Age) yet.

If you're healthy and in otherwise good shape, there's no good reason why having kids at 30 is catastrophic or in any way dangerous. (The bigger question is whether or not residency would leave you healthy and in good shape, but that's another topic.)

 

[Coastie]

I didn't get that feeling from this thread. I think everyone is bashing Sophie for...oh so many obvious reasons.

I believe this thread does show that we think while any woman should be free to have babies anytime (obviously), that we also know that these things do not happen in a vacuum: actions have consequences. Sophie had the option to take the test at another time, and if she had to choose between taking care of her child to her personal standards versus taking the test, it's just a consequence of the responsbility she took on and to the personal standards she holds dear. She could have hired a nanny, used formula, delayed the test, or "suffered" through.

In the same vein, any man or woman who decides to have a baby has to bring to compromise their careers versus their standards for childcare. In some cases, this isn't an issue, in that they will hire nannies, have family members, or, in the case of Britney Spears, leave them alone with a bodyguard. As a physician and parent, we have responsibilities to our careers, colleagues, and children, and as a result of our action to pursue these various lifestyles, consequences follow when attempting to balance the optimal pursuit of each.

Funny how this thread has degenerated from bashing the manipulative whininess of Sophie Currier to making blanket statements about how female residents shouldn't have kids because it makes life harder for everyone else.

Women are 29-31 by the time they finish residency (and that's if they go straight through from college). It's unreasonable to expect women to put their reproductive lives on hold for that long, especially given the decreased chance of conception and the increased risk of many birth defects. Also, resident maternity leave isn't months-long or anything -- the policies that Google returned are pretty much all 4 weeks + 2 weeks vacation time if absolutely necessary.

I can understand resentment at women who abuse the system, though. Like Sophie Currier. Let's get back to bashing her; that was more fun than this.

 

[jdh71]

The other resident's have lives, and he feels their lives shouldn't be worsened by someone else's choice to have a child. Unfortunatley, that's just the way it works. [sic]

Ok, seriously . . . WTF?! Yes, other people have lives which will be affected by your decision to have a child, but, sorry that just the way it is?! Your right of choice to have a kid trumps another coworker's right to their time at work?! It's ok that other have to sacrifice for your decision?!

Talk about entitlement! This is COMPLETELY and TOTALLY germane to this discussion is it this EXACT notion of entitlement we are all reacting to and you seem to want to bash. Here it is . . .

Hypocrite.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Oh for heaven's sake, please take a step back. I don't even have children.

I am a woman, and eventually, chances are I will have kids. I never read the fine print, I guess, where it said that medicine was synonymous for celibacy.

Yes, having children is a possible choice in the future.

To the men that are so concerned that somebody's pregnancy is going to increase their workload, I understand your concerns. Stop attacking me because I'm not even asking for anything. I was pointing out how ridiculous your expectations were that women put all their interests aside for a JOB. Yes, it's a job, and when it comes down to it, I and my (maybe future) children are more important to me than a job. I'll take an unpaid leave if that's what it comes down to, no problem.

Also, I not only have a choice of when to have children, I have a choice of where to work, and who to work for. It is very possible that if an employer or a job isn't catering to my life choices, I'll just change jobs or go into private practice.

Many female physicians have had kids while working, and the system hasn't collapsed yet. The sky hasn't fallen, and it certainly isn't going to because they keep having them.

Besides, you are not immune to life, either. You don't have to push babies out of your body, but many other things can happen. What if you suddenly find yourself a single parent? What if a loved one gets sick and you want to take care of them? Isn't that a choice also? I am not going to resent you if you want to leave for a while to care for your dying [insert relative of choice here] for a few months. I don't see why you resent women for taking a leave to take care of their babies. Life doesn't stop because you go into medicine.

True, women are the ones that have to deal with pregnancy (or push babies out of your body as you put it). But you neglect that it takes two to make a child. Immune to life? You're a freaking medical student who knows about how children are made, and how to prevent having a child. If you don't understand that, how did you get through medical school? Having children isn't an accident, it's due to being irresponsible like getting a DUI or choosing to get drunk before a test. You made the decision. It can also be a man or woman that ends up taking care of them.

It is a decision to have a child, just like any other decision. When you make that decision, you have to understand the consequences and act like an adult. Having a child isn't some special thing where you can just have irresponsibly have a child and then not take upon yourself the great responsibility of raising that child. It's unfair to the child not to plan ahead so that you can give it the best child rearing possible.

I'm not saying that people can't have children, it's their right. We have laws to protect people's careers and jobs while they have a child, and I agree with them. What is wrong is that people thing that they can have a child whenever they want, and if something gets in the way of that, everyone else should take on responsibility whether it is through financial or logistical support. You should be an adult, doing everything you can to prepare for the child. Not just doing your boyfriend, getting pregnant, calling it a miracle, then realizing that you aren't in a position in your life to take care of the child and have to scramble to make it all work.

In this particular situation, a mother has a child during her medical training. No big deal, that's fine. She'll have to figure out how to deal with it. It's tough enough to get through medical training without a child, but she chose to do it. Bully for her, it's going to be tough.

But no! It's not her responsibility! Everyone else has to sacrifice because she's special! She has a child, which trumps everyone else! Even though she made a decision, those who procreate are elevated above everyone else. She can't even sacrifice not breast feeding/pumping for even one day to take an exam or make any deviation in her life. She expects everyone else to bend to her will.

You see the problem? You can't act like a child, you're an adult now. Take responsibility for your life, make smart decisions.

P.S. I'm not attacking you in particular. When I say you, I'm referring to anyone.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I think I read a stat a while ago that said about 1/2 of all children were unplanned.

Being a doctor, shouldn't we (as a special group) understand about how to prevent having children? (oral contraceptives, condoms, spermicides, etc.) If a doctor has a child, it's due to irresponsibility (because they by default should know about these things, otherwise I question their receipt of a medical license) or a conscious choice.

If you say, well these things just happen (giggle), then I say to that... "You're just being irresponsible" just like someone who gets a DUI where it just happened that you had too many drinks and drove your car. Why do so many people, when it comes to sex especially, just throw away any responsibility? We're doctors or doctors-to-be for freakin' sake, we should do better.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Being a doctor, shouldn't we (as a special group) understand about how to prevent having children? (oral contraceptives, condoms, spermicides, etc.) If a doctor has a child, it's due to irresponsibility (because they by default should know about these things, otherwise I question their receipt of a medical license) or a conscious choice.

If you say, well these things just happen (giggle), then I say to that... "You're just being irresponsible" just like someone who gets a DUI where it just happened that you had too many drinks and drove your car. Why do so many people, when it comes to sex especially, just throw away any responsibility? We're doctors or doctors-to-be for freakin' sake, we should do better.

That's awfully easy to say, but as a woman who's had pregnancy scares (probably like most of us), it's not so easy in reality. Birth control is not 100% reliable, so even responsible people can indeed have unplanned pregnancies. Life happens, condoms break, you forget to take your bc pill one day, etc..

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Besides, you are not immune to life, either. You don't have to push babies out of your body, but many other things can happen. What if you suddenly find yourself a single parent? What if a loved one gets sick and you want to take care of them? Isn't that a choice also? I am not going to resent you if you want to leave for a while to care for your dying [insert relative of choice here] for a few months. I don't see why you resent women for taking a leave to take care of their babies. Life doesn't stop because you go into medicine.

Exactly. After working in the insurance field for years, it becomes apparent that women aren't the only people taking time off work and thrusting extra duties on their colleagues. We all have things that pop up, so accommodating other colleagues lots of times turns out to be fair play.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

That's awfully easy to say, but as a woman who's had pregnancy scares (probably like most of us), it's not so easy in reality. Birth control is not 100% reliable, so even responsible people can indeed have unplanned pregnancies. Life happens, condoms break, you forget to take your bc pill one day, etc..

So, having sex doesn't involve responsibility? Maybe abstaining from sex?

What about the DUI argument? Getting drunk happens, missing your ride happens, forgetting you're drunk and then driving. Should I be able to get out of the ticket? Do DUIs just "happen"?

Sex is all about responsibility. If you get pregnant, it's your fault (actually both of the paren't fault, IMHO and both are responsible for it) and you need to deal with the consequences. You could have prevented it. You didn't need to have sex. You didn't need to just use a condom and nothing else. You should have been a responsible adult and taken every bc pill, everytime. If not, you should have abstained from sex.

If after using a condom, spermicide, oral contraceptive, and whatever else you could have done...and you still get pregnant, well you chose to engage in sex, a recreational activity. Just like someone who does extreme sports while in medical school, if you get hurt in an accident you'll need to take some time off or alter your plans. Crap happens, and you deal with it.

But, no...sex is special. If it results in a pregnancy, is it just a "miracle of life"? Spontaneous pregnancy? You're a medical student, you should have known about how babies are made! Otherwise, you shouldn't be in the profession if you don't understand that.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Exactly. After working in the insurance field for years, it becomes apparent that women aren't the only people taking time off work and thrusting extra duties on their colleagues. We all have things that pop up, so accommodating other colleagues lots of times turns out to be fair play.

There is a difference between medical training and working in the medical field as a physician. When you are a physician, the system can handle people taking time out for "life events". But, in medical training they really can't handle you taking out time for "life events" that are totally within your control. Sure, your parents die...you can take time off, and people can take up the slack...you can take a year off, and get back into the system. But, she chose to have a child, then expects everyone else to bend to the decision like a child herself.

Bottom line, being irresponsible shouldn't be rewarded. Acting like a child and being irresponsible should have consequences.

 

[jdh71]

That's awfully easy to say, but as a woman who's had pregnancy scares (probably like most of us), it's not so easy in reality. Birth control is not 100% reliable, so even responsible people can indeed have unplanned pregnancies. Life happens, condoms break, you forget to take your bc pill one day, etc..

Give me a freaking break! If you are "responsible" enough to spread your legs, then you MUST as a matter of necessity be responsible to deal with any of those consequences . . . even *gasp* (say it ain't so!) when contraception fails. You get ZERO pass at responsibility just because a condom broke, and you as an extremely intelligent human being (assumed by virtue of actually being in med school) understand these complications and consequences EVEN BETTER than the general population.

This entitlement bull**** has got to stop. You are NOT special if you have an unplanned pregnancy because on contraception failure. YOU - ARE - RESPONSIBLE.

 

[jdh71]

Exactly. After working in the insurance field for years, it becomes apparent that women aren't the only people taking time off work and thrusting extra duties on their colleagues. We all have things that pop up, so accommodating other colleagues lots of times turns out to be fair play.

A day here, a day there, that, you know, "pop-up" are tolerable (ie. my kid is sick and I need to take him to the pediatrician today or my brother died in an accident I'm going to the funeral this weekend) and understandable, but,

"hey guys, since I made a decision to have a baby, I will have to be on light duty and short hours, because lifting/moving patients and the emotional stress at work might cause complications with my pregnancy and when it gets to painful to stand long (and it will) I will have to stop work and wont be back for weeks (maybe months) while I birth my child, and spend time with him/her until my government money runs out, sorry, but you know life happens. See you guys on rounds!"

The difference seems pretty obvious.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

So, having sex doesn't involve responsibility? Maybe abstaining from sex?

What about the DUI argument? Getting drunk happens, missing your ride happens, forgetting you're drunk and then driving. Should I be able to get out of the ticket? Do DUIs just "happen"?

Nice... you just compared a woman having sex to driving drunk.

A crime for which she must pay, right? The dirty slut!

Unless you believe in enforced abstinance for all female residents (no, don't get excited.. it's NOT going to happen), pregnancies will happen. Residency programs should have contigency plans for this, and in fact should assume that one or two residents per class will have to take maternity/paternity leave, just as they plan ahead for dropouts, deaths, or what have you.

Anyone who does take leave should naturally expect to see their graduation delayed. Nobody besides the whackjob suing USMLE seriously believes otherwise. And I don't believe in lightening the workload of residency just to make it family-friendly (and besides, cush residencies exist for those who want them).

But not dealing with the realities of pregnancy because of some deep-seated misogynist instinct that women who have sex are evil or whatever your hangup is... is just not realistic.

 

[Abilene85]

I think the best thing to do is to decide what time is best to be pregnant and try to plan at the most convenient time. I went straight to medical school from undergrad, so I could realistically wait to have children until after residency (28-29 what? women in my family tend not to even get married until that age...and the kids come in the early to mid 30s with no complications). For a woman a few years older than me, however, waiting until residency is complete to begin a family might not be the best decision.

Even if a couple makes an informed decision to have baby #1 in 4th year of medical school, it’s not like some angels come from heaven the moment the decision has been made to place a seed inside the mother’s womb. Some couples have difficulties conceiving. If they don’t conceive within a nice 3 month window, should they just give up?

If the baby comes in residency, let the woman take some time off when she gives birth. I would fully expect a man to do the same if he grew something inside and then popped it out of his penis. If residencies offer maternity leave, obviously it is considered acceptable to take one. Be realistic about it though, with the understanding that your absence is putting a greater workload on the shoulders of your coworkers. Once your body has healed, if it literally becomes “hang out with baby” time, please return to work. I know it will be hard to tear yourself away, but as a mother/resident it is the responsible thing to do.

As for this “days popping up” business, I have a question. Would people be upset with someone taking a few days off during residency to fly somewhere far away to present research at a conference? It’s not a family emergency of any kind. It’s completely voluntary. Would you be more upset with conference guy than dead-parent guy? Or does the reason for taking time off not have any influence on the degree to which his fellow residents would be upset?

I plan to support my colleagues. I will support them while, I’m sure, b*tching and moaning on the side about all the extra work, but I won’t say “O.M.G. I can’t believe Sally is taking time off after she has her baby. How did she even get into this residency if she doesn’t put medicine above everything else in life? I’m like never talking to her again.” And if I end up pregnant, I plan to take some time off to recover. And I hope my fellow residents will congratulate me and tell me how cute my ugly baby is, even if they are ticked to have extra work and venting to each other in the break room.



However, people should NOT have a child and then feel special enough that rules should be bent to accommodate their choices. Ahem…Sophie…

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Nice... you just compared a woman having sex to driving drunk.

A crime for which she must pay, right? The dirty slut! :laugh.

No, not exactly. If you choose to drink, you don't go driving. If you drive, then you should take the responsibility for getting the DUI or *gasp* killing someone.

If you can't keep your penis in your pants, or you can't keep them out of your pants, you should take the *gasp* responsibility for creating a child.

But not dealing with the realities of pregnancy because of some deep-seated misogynist instinct that women who have sex are evil or whatever your hangup is... is just not realistic.

Those are your words, not mine. Getting pregnant is a choice or something that happened because you took the risk of having sex. (and if you don't understand how babies are made or how to prevent pregnancy, you should have your medical license or admission to medical school revoked). Women that are having sex aren't evil, or whatever hangup you think I have. People being responsible with sex or choosing to have a child are at issue here.

You make it sound like everyone has the right, no matter the consequences, to have sex or to procreate. It's a responsibility, not something that just "happens".

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

28 or 29? I'm curious as to where you got these numbers. Add another 10 years to those numbers, and you're more correct. 28 is a perfectly good age to start having kids. It is not "oftentimes a dangerous time" and that's not "as far as you want to push it." Being a 28 year old primip is fine.

Someone mentioned it in another thread, but young women today are very paranoid about this compared to older generations. A lot have this idea that "Oh my God, if I'm not pregnant by the time I'm 25 my fertility will be almost gone and if I DO have a baby, he'll surely have Down's syndrome!" And of course, if you look at the actual data, that just isn't true.

Now, I fully support women who try to have children early. Maybe a medical condition like PCOS or endometriosis makes having a baby sooner rather than later a good idea. Maybe they just WANT to have children at a young age. But that's a choice and you've got to plan your life accordingly.

 

[Jwax]

28 or 29? I'm curious as to where you got these numbers. Add another 10 years to those numbers, and you're more correct. 28 is a perfectly good age to start having kids. It is not "oftentimes a dangerous time" and that's not "as far as you want to push it." Being a 28 year old primip is fine.

I know that 34 sounds old to have kids, but when your mother had you, she didn't even qualify as AMA (Advanced Maternal Age) yet.

If you're healthy and in otherwise good shape, there's no good reason why having kids at 30 is catastrophic or in any way dangerous. (The bigger question is whether or not residency would leave you healthy and in good shape, but that's another topic.)

I'm sorry, I should have and meant to say that is far as I want to push it.. sorry about that.

Yes, younger women are more paranoid about having kids w/problems. They also start fearing they won't be able to have kids once they try. I actually started to worry about whether or not I'd be able to get pregnant a few years ago, and I certainly am not ready to try yet. I think some of us just feel that clocking ticking away, even though I'm only 23.

Yes, I can be a hypocrite. Pregnancies do happen even when the couple is being careful. Like bagel said, contraceptives aren't 100%. So are women supposed to just stop having sex during residency so we don't accidently increase our co-workers workload? Seriously? I know I rambled on somewhat incoherently before with the "unfortunately that's just the way it is" line of thought, and I'm not really sure what point I was trying to make. I may have just been talking to hear myself talk. But yes, I do feel entitled to choose when I will have children, and I do feel entitled to take maternity leave. I don't feel I am entitled to make everyone else's lives more difficult, but I don't have a better solution for my life. Having kids while still in med school sounds ridiculous to me, and waiting until residency is complete seems too long to wait. My SO is ten years older, so I'll be having the kids when he is nearly 40, which I am under the impression is around the age that males are more likely to start having germline mutations.

All that being said, I hadn't even considered the impact on other residents of having kids during residency until it was first mentioned on this thread. I had originally planned to wait until after residency in the first place, until I was advised the end of residency was the "best time" due to protected time off. So, we'll see what actually happens. I will probably irritated at other residents who take time off for whatever reason, but I have no control or influence over what other choices people make. We just have to live with it.

I imagine the reason you (jdh) are so heated about the issue is because you are a resident and are currently dealing with this situation, or will be getting to do so in the near future.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

So are women supposed to just stop having sex during residency so we don't accidently increase our co-workers workload? Seriously? I know I rambled on somewhat incoherently before with the "unfortunately that's just the way it is" line of thought, and I'm not really sure what point I was trying to make. I may have just been talking to hear myself talk. But yes, I do feel entitled to choose when I will have children, and I do feel entitled to take maternity leave. I don't feel I am entitled to make everyone else's lives more difficult, but I don't have a better solution for my life. Having kids while still in med school sounds ridiculous to me, and waiting until residency is complete seems too long to wait. My SO is ten years older, so I'll be having the kids when he is nearly 40, which I am under the impression is around the age that males are more likely to start having germline mutations.

Am I entitled to keep on drinking? Am I entitled to do whatever I want, damn the consequences? Why can't people understand that there are risks with having sex. Why can't people stop doing things that have consequences when necessary? Nobody is saying that just women have to stop having sex, men too in this situation. If you father a child during residency, you're responsible to raise the child as well and it will interfere with your life. Sex isn't some protected activity that you can engage in, and then not take responsibility for what happens afterwards.

I'll say it again: you need to take responsibility for how you approach reproduction. You can't just have sex whenever you want, and then expect others to pickup your slack because you either didn't abstain from sex or take precautions (many of them, I assume medical students know them).