Maternity Leave

[giantswing]

Seriously, i don't Get how the importance of not being a dbag is so hard to understand. Life gets really hard when your coworkers don't like you.

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[Mass Effect]

Again, the above is the difference between surgery types and medicine types

There are plenty of surgeons who took maternity/paternity leave when having children. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not even a resident yet. If you go in with this kind of hostility toward everyone even thinking about taking leave for any reason, you're going to have a very rude awakening.

Keep in mind that surgery subs may have as few as two residents per class; three to five is average for ortho. One person leaving for any reason for any amount of time has a huge impact on the call schedule.

Yeah, and? No one is saying we don't understand that you'll have more work to do. What we're saying is that you having more work to do for 6 weeks is not a deterrent to us choosing to have kids.

Seriously, i don't Get how the importance of not being a dbag is so hard to understand. Life gets really hard when your coworkers don't like you.

Please take your own advice. Again, if you walk into residency with this much hostility, life is going to be very difficult. You're assuming now that every surgical resident/surgeon feels exactly as you do. You would be wrong. You come off as extremely entitled telling people that if they want babies, they shouldn't go into surgery or that they're selfish for not taking YOUR comfort into consideration when deciding to procreate.

 

[giantswing]

There are plenty of surgeons who took maternity/paternity leave when having children. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not even a resident yet. If you go in with this kind of hostility toward everyone even thinking about taking leave for any reason, you're going to have a very rude awakening.



Yeah, and? No one is saying we don't understand that you'll have more work to do. What we're saying is that you having more work to do for 6 weeks is not a deterrent to us choosing to have kids.



Please take your own advice. Again, if you walk into residency with this much hostility, life is going to be very difficult. You're assuming now that every surgical resident/surgeon feels exactly as you do. You would be wrong. You come off as extremely entitled telling people that if they want babies, they shouldn't go into surgery or that they're selfish for not taking YOUR comfort into consideration when deciding to procreate.

Not a resident yet, but lots of experience working w entitled, lazy, whiny mothers who assumed people without kids had nothing better to do than cover their lazy butts. Wrong.

It's about working as a team so everyone gets their needs met, not taking off as soon as you can get away to skip through a field of flowers while others struggle in the trenches.

Tell me again where i'm wrong?

 

[giantswing]

]Not a resident yet, but lots of experience working w entitled, lazy, whiny mothers who assumed people without kids had nothing better to do than cover their lazy butts. Wrong.

For the millionth time, it's not about having a baby during residency. No ones saying no one should ever be pregnant in residency. It's about being rude and entitled about your time off. It's about people who want to spend time w their kids, even if they're not the ones who gave birth. You're missing the point.

It's about working as a team so everyone gets their needs met, not taking off as soon as you can get away to skip through a field of flowers while others struggle in the trenches.

Tell me again where i'm wrong?

 

[rokshana]

Not a resident yet, but lots of experience working w entitled, lazy, whiny mothers who assumed people without kids had nothing better to do than cover their lazy butts. Wrong.

It's about working as a team so everyone gets their needs met, not taking off as soon as you can get away to skip through a field of flowers while others struggle in the trenches.

Tell me again where i'm wrong?

well...having a baby is not exactly skipping through a field of flowers...

 

[giantswing]

No it's not

Which, class size or difference?

Big academic programs may be as big as eight, ten. Little community prog may have two. Most places I interviwed at were about four.

People who choose lifestyle specialties already have a different set of priorities than people who choose to enter a five to seven year residency. This is open for debate tho.

 

[Mass Effect]

]Not a resident yet, but lots of experience working w entitled, lazy, whiny mothers who assumed people without kids had nothing better to do than cover their lazy butts. Wrong.

For the millionth time, it's not about having a baby during residency. No ones saying no one should ever be pregnant in residency. It's about being rude and entitled about your time off. It's about people who want to spend time w their kids, even if they're not the ones who gave birth. You're missing the point.

Perhaps people are rude to you because your entitled attitude. Did you ever think of that? If you chilled out and quit making statements like "You want a baby so bad? Become a psych resident or family med" or "And why do most people choose not to get pregnant during college? Same concept with residency, except you have all your coworkers to think about instead of just yourself" (both of which do imply you're saying one shouldn't have a baby during residency, for the millionth time), maybe you wouldn't be hit with so much so-called rude behavior by co-workers who have no obligation to get your approval before starting a family.

It's about working as a team so everyone gets their needs met, not taking off as soon as you can get away to skip through a field of flowers while others struggle in the trenches.

Tell me again where i'm wrong?

I think you have an extremely narrow view of teamwork. Getting needs met means that you quit guilt-tripping others about taking maternity leave as having a child is a "need" in their case, obviously. But that's not what you mean at all. Based on your posts, including the ones quoted in this post, you're essentially saying that they should put off having children so that YOUR needs are met or else they're rude and entitled. Once again, an awful lot of hostility for someone who hasn't even started residency yet.

 

[giantswing]

Perhaps people are rude to you because your entitled attitude. Did you ever think of that? If you chilled out and quit making statements like "You want a baby so bad? Become a psych resident or family med" or "And why do most people choose not to get pregnant during college? Same concept with residency, except you have all your coworkers to think about instead of just yourself" (both of which do imply you're saying one shouldn't have a baby during residency, for the millionth time), maybe you wouldn't be hit with so much so-called rude behavior by co-workers who have no obligation to get your approval before starting a family.



I think you have an extremely narrow view of teamwork. Getting needs met means that you quit guilt-tripping others about taking maternity leave as having a child is a "need" in their case, obviously. But that's not what you mean at all. Based on your posts, including the ones quoted in this post, you're essentially saying that they should put off having children so that YOUR needs are met or else they're rude and entitled. Once again, an awful lot of hostility for someone who hasn't even started residency yet.

It's not about leaving or being physically gone, it's about acting like a jerk when you leave. Not sure how you're not getting that.

 

[Mass Effect]

It's not about leaving or being physically gone, it's about acting like a jerk when you leave. Not sure how you're not getting that.

I explained to you, with quotes, how I'm not getting that. Your argument seems to fluctuate. You say things that imply one shouldn't have a baby during residency only to defend it when confronted by saying that it's not about having a baby but about being a jerk when you leave.

 

[giantswing]

I explained to you, with quotes, how I'm not getting that. Your argument seems to fluctuate. You say things that imply one shouldn't have a baby during residency only to defend it when confronted by saying that it's not about having a baby but about being a jerk when you leave.

You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing.

And next you'll say Ive got nothing.

But generally you have to be seriously out of touch if you thnk you can go into gen surg and squeeze out three kids wo invoking the wrath of at least one person. Thus why people choose lifestyle specialties.

 

[Mass Effect]

You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing

No, I just call people on what they say.

But generally you have to be seriously out of touch if you thnk you can go into gen surg and squeeze out three kids wo invoking the wrath of at least one person. Thus why people choose lifestyle specialties.

Apparently, they've invoked your wrath even before orientation. My sympathies to your future colleagues.

 

[giantswing]

No, I just call people on what they say.

Apparently, they've invoked your wrath even before orientation. My sympathies to your future colleagues.

They'll be fine. We're a pretty awesome group.

 

[Mass Effect]

His/her opinions (and mine) represent the dominant opinion among most residents.

Yet, somehow, someway, most residents have babies and take leave. So explain that one. Yes, everyone likes to complain. What else is new? Residents (and med students) would complain about the color of the sky if they could. But still, residents continue to have babies and women continue to take maternity leave in every single specialty.

If you haven't figured that out from the many residents and attendings (and a program director) who have reaffirmed this on this thread, you are delusional

Reaffirmed what exactly? APD, by his own words, saw both sides and described the rude attitude of some (which I already agreed with in an earlier post). But everything else I see is some residents up in arms about anyone disrupting their schedule. Just because they agree doesn't make them right. There are just many on the other side of the fence as proven by the number of parents in residency.

So go ahead and spare him/her the, "You're in for a tough time, little med student!

She is in for a rough time because she's going into it with such a hostile attitude. If she's this miserable about something that hasn't even happened yet (and may not happen among her class), I don't even want to know what her attitude will be when she's hit with all the other unexpected annoyances of residency.

He's right, you're wrong, and I don't even need to mention that I've been a resident longer than you to make that point.

Oh yes, please, let's resort to grade-school antics of "I'm right and you're wrong" instead of accepting the fact that adults are allowed to disagree. I don't care how long you've been a resident. You need to grow up if you get this bent out of shape at someone disagreeing with you.

 

[rokshana]

Yet, somehow, someway, most residents have babies and take leave. So explain that one. Yes, everyone likes to complain. What else is new? Residents (and med students) would complain about the color of the sky if they could. But still, residents continue to have babies and women continue to take maternity leave in every single specialty.



Reaffirmed what exactly? APD, by his own words, saw both sides and described the rude attitude of some (which I already agreed with in an earlier post). But everything else I see is some residents up in arms about anyone disrupting their schedule. Just because they agree doesn't make them right. There are just many on the other side of the fence as proven by the number of parents in residency.



She is in for a rough time because she's going into it with such a hostile attitude. If she's this miserable about something that hasn't even happened yet (and may not happen among her class), I don't even want to know what her attitude will be when she's hit with all the other unexpected annoyances of residency.



Oh yes, please, let's resort to grade-school antics of "I'm right and you're wrong" instead of accepting the fact that adults are allowed to disagree. I don't care how long you've been a resident. You need to grow up if you get this bent out of shape at someone disagreeing with you.

mass effect it seems like you are the one that is bent out of shape that tired is voicing an opinion that some find to be not so PC, but many nod their heads in agreement..."disrupting" a schedule is one thing...having to put someone else needs ahead of their own is a different thing...why do you think one resident has more of a right to have family time than another?
there are lots of things that are annoying, unfair, etc about residency...doesn't help one of your own feels the need to make it moreso...

of course this doesn't happen if the program wasn't allowing it...if everyone is suppose to do a certain number or calls, service months, etc, then the program should make sure that its equitable...someone takes leave (for whatever reason...maternity, medical, and so forth) that they still need to to their share...even if this means having to do the more intense rotations before the leave or after they come back or taking more calls one month to allow for the months without call.(though of course done so not violating ACGME rules ).

 

[Mass Effect]

mass effect it seems like you are the one that is bent out of shape that tired is voicing an opinion that some find to be not so PC, but many nod their heads in agreement

Anyone who tries to shut down a disagreement with "I'm right and you're wrong" is bent out of shape, in my book. I'm not bent out of shape in the slightest. I simply disagree.

"disrupting" a schedule is one thing...having to put someone else needs ahead of their own is a different thing...why do you think one resident has more of a right to have family time than another?

I don't think that because they don't. That's why maternity (and paternity) leave applies to all. If this was some kind of special snowflake law that only applied to certain residents, it would be one thing, but it's not. Anyone who has a baby can take leave. The people who choose not to have a baby just want everyone to follow their game plan and they're pissed off that other residents have other wants in life.

of course this doesn't happen if the program wasn't allowing it...if everyone is suppose to do a certain number or calls, service months, etc, then the program should make sure that its equitable...someone takes leave (for whatever reason...maternity, medical, and so forth) that they still need to to their share...even if this means having to do the more intense rotations before the leave or after they come back or taking more calls one month to allow for the months without call.(though of course done so not violating ACGME rules ).

I agree with this and I think it's program-dependent. Maybe it's something people should look into when interviewing. I also agree that those taking leave should volunteer to take more call when they get back. Never disagreed with that.

 

[Mass Effect]

Because most of those who do it don't come in with your entitled attitude of, "This is my decision, and you're just going to have to accomodate me! If you don't like taking my call for me, maybe you should take maternity/paternity leave and crap on someone else."

Try not to make up and assign senseless motivations to others, especially when they've said the exact opposite in this very thread. No entitlement here. In fact, I don't plan on having kids. The entitlement exists on the other side, from residents who think that anyone who dares to have a child during residency is selfish because they didn't ask permission from him/her first.

 

[Wordead]

Try not to make up and assign senseless motivations to others, especially when they've said the exact opposite in this very thread. No entitlement here. In fact, I don't plan on having kids. The entitlement exists on the other side, from residents who think that anyone who dares to have a child during residency is selfish because they didn't ask permission from him/her first.

I know you said you're not bent out of shape, but the strawmen and ranting repetitive posts are very rage-y. Just FYI. I have no dog in this race.

 

[DarkLordofSith]

I'm a dude and I don't get the argument against maternity leave. How are they being rude and non-appreciative? Are the moms supposed to bow at your feet for the great service you've done them? People have families...that's life. No need to get bent out of shape over it.

 

[giantswing]

My fav at my old job were the moms who thought that everyone w kids should automatically get christmas off, while those wo should automatically have to work.

Also, "I'm leaving at five even if my work isn't done because i have to make dinner!" So someone else would stay and finish the work, and leave at eight.

Or, "i'm just not going go in there to do that - I'm pregnant!" Mind you, this didn't involve playing w teratogens. It was in a lab where there was a co2 tank in the room and they were worried it's mere presence would hurt the baby.

Not everyone was like that, of course, but the handful who were really pissed off the entire group, including other moms.

"I did alllllllll of that while I was pregnant, and it was fine!"

 

[Member 1337]

I'll jump in with fancy words like "stigma" and "ethics."

There is a kind of stigma that comes from being single or married without kids in residency and fellowship.

As your colleagues are having babies or taking care of families at home, many develop an attitude that your off-work time (as someone without kids) is less important than that of those who have kids at home. This results in an attitude that you should work late, pick up more call, see that patient that walks into clinic at 4:59pm, while those with families should "go home and spend quality time." The message/stigma is that your time is less valuable, that you cannot have anything more important than to spend more time working. This is demeaning to the choices many have made to prioritize other aspects of their lives.

I agree with many who have already posted that it comes down to mutual respect - everyone needs to pull their weight. If I am carrying your burdens for a month, you show me respect by helping make my load easier the next month. This is being a part of an effective team. An attitude of entitlement to have others carry your share of the work, for any reason, with no expectation of ever balancing the books, comes accross as unjust (as has been aluded to already earlier in this thread) and one of the reasons it evokes such powerful emotions - at its worst, it's a violation of our sense of ethical treatment of each other.

 

[giantswing]

Try not to make up and assign senseless motivations to others, especially when they've said the exact opposite in this very thread. No entitlement here. In fact, I don't plan on having kids. The entitlement exists on the other side, from residents who think that anyone who dares to have a child during residency is selfish because they didn't ask permission from him/her first.

Backwards, you have it.

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

I know some of you won't agree with this, but I have to get it off my chest.

Resident in a surgical specialty here. I'm single. My program has more children than residents. Yet another resident is pregnant, this time it's one of my classmates. The schedule for next year came out the other day. Now my PD is already trying to change it (why she didn't address these issues before releasing it is beyond me) to accommodate for this resident's due date. The way it's set up, I'm the one who gets screwed. I have to take an extended period of night float, plus I'm the back-up for if she delivers early before that anyway. Then on the back end, I can already tell I'm going to get stuck covering a couple of weekends for her while she's on her 6 weeks of free vacation.

I'm sick of covering for people so they can sit on their ass and not work. It's a small program, so when there's constantly someone gone, the rest of us get screwed. I'm never going to get free time off like this, so why am I the one getting shafted again? Should the folks who had a baby have to bear the brunt of this? Better yet, how about the person having their 2nd baby in 3 years?!?! Not to mention if you even say your kid has a sniffle you get to not come in/leave early. I complained once and was told that I'd get to leave early, so it'd be fine for me to schedule a dentist appointment or something like that, well, that is, as long as it's not busy.... So how exactly am I supposed to schedule an appointment? People schedule stuff for their kids and get off all the time. Does it ever end?

****. Somehow I wandered into 1957. Can someone direct me to 2015?

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

Sure, it's right here:

Sounds a lot like the OP.

 

[michaelrack]

****. Somehow I wandered into 1957. Can someone direct me to 2015?

I'll trade places with you

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'll jump in with fancy words like "stigma" and "ethics."

There is a kind of stigma that comes from being single or married without kids in residency and fellowship.

As your colleagues are having babies or taking care of families at home, many develop an attitude that your off-work time (as someone without kids) is less important than that of those who have kids at home. This results in an attitude that you should work late, pick up more call, see that patient that walks into clinic at 4:59pm, while those with families should "go home and spend quality time." The message/stigma is that your time is less valuable, that you cannot have anything more important than to spend more time working. This is demeaning to the choices many have made to prioritize other aspects of their lives.

I agree with many who have already posted that it comes down to mutual respect - everyone needs to pull their weight. If I am carrying your burdens for a month, you show me respect by helping make my load easier the next month. This is being a part of an effective team. An attitude of entitlement to have others carry your share of the work, for any reason, with no expectation of ever balancing the books, comes accross as unjust (as has been aluded to already earlier in this thread) and one of the reasons it evokes such powerful emotions - at its worst, it's a violation of our sense of ethical treatment of each other.

This is the core issue at hand.

My issue with maternity leave would only be if there is no gratitude from the resident who took it, and no attempt at reconciling any differences in call or night float or harder rotations or whatever to at least attempt to lessen the workload of those who covered her for the 6 weeks the resident was on maternity leave.

But yeah, the whole bit about people with kids getting preferential treatment is likely correct, since those without kids clearly aren't missing any quality time (since they don't have kids!)

Mass Effect - I think it's fine for someone to have a child while in residency. As long as they are appreciative and willing to pay back their fellow residents, I'm all for it. The main issue OP had is that there is preferential treatment given to those who DO decide to have kids, both in maternity leave and allowing those residents to leave early to deal with their kids. Stuff like that would NOT fly for people without kids, which is why it seems like it's horribly unfair.

 

[rokshana]

By the same token, why is it your co-resident's job to deny herself a family to facilitate giving you an easier time in residency? THAT'S the part that selfish. The resident didn't tell you it's your job. Your program did. We all know what we're getting into and we know that given that residency is when it is (mid to late-20s through early to mid-30s), people WILL be having children. Go into residency assuming this is a FACT, not a what-if and you'll be a lot happier.



There is such a thing as paternity leave. You should have applied for it.

OMG!! how do you NOT get it???? its not about making it EASIER for him in residency...that is NOT what he is saying...he is saying why should he have to support someone making his life HARDER than it already is! Yes people will have babies in residency, but just like any choice you make, you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of your decision...have a baby in residency and other people have to do your work for you, then well, you should have to make for the work you missed when you come back...simple as that.

I took fmla for knee surgery for only a week (even though my attendings said i should go ahead and scheduled 2 weeks out)....and of course they were right...I schedule the surgery when i wasn't on anything crucial and no one would miss me...well the 2nd week encompassed a weekend that i was suppose to be on call...one of the other fellows covered that weekend for me...and you betcha that i made sure i paid that back...eventhough i was on medical leave and technically did not have to...sure that is only a weekend and a couple of days of call, but the principle is the same...you miss out on call or other people cover you for one day or 12 weeks, you should have to make it up (trust me take FMLA for 12 weeks and ACGME will make sure you make up the time by staying in residency longer).

 

[FutureInternist]

This is the core issue at hand.

My issue with maternity leave would only be if there is no gratitude from the resident who took it, and no attempt at reconciling any differences in call or night float or harder rotations or whatever to at least attempt to lessen the workload of those who covered her for the 6 weeks the resident was on maternity leave.

But yeah, the whole bit about people with kids getting preferential treatment is likely correct, since those without kids clearly aren't missing any quality time (since they don't have kids!)

Mass Effect - I think it's fine for someone to have a child while in residency. As long as they are appreciative and willing to pay back their fellow residents, I'm all for it. The main issue OP had is that there is preferential treatment given to those who DO decide to have kids, both in maternity leave and allowing those residents to leave early to deal with their kids. Stuff like that would NOT fly for people without kids, which is why it seems like it's horribly unfair.

There's more ways to have a family than just kids
SOs, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces....You are missing quality time with family is you are being forced (or guilted) into doing more call, cover more nights etc

The entitlement that some people get is the issue

 

[bambi]

I think expecting pregnant women to work extra on calls is unreasonable. It is incredibly tiring being pregnant, even a normal schedule is very tough. Stress can cause problems in pregnancy, some of you are seriously expecting women to risk the health of their child? If anyone even suggested to me that I should ever do anything that could potentially hurt my child I would never speak to them again. I have had very bad experiences though so am probably far more touchy/concerned about risks than most people. I also think asking someone with a 6 week old baby at home to work extra on calls is unreasonable, male or female. I'm sure many people to try to arrange pregnancies around lighter schedules but some desperately struggle to get pregnant so can't necessarily do it when it's most convenient. There are obviously time limits on getting pregnant, you absolutely cannot expect anyone to potentially risk never having a baby so as not to interfere with work schedules.

Saying "everyone has a family" doesn't really fly with me. Ask anyone that has a child who they would rather die, their child, or literally anyone else in the world and you can bet no one would say their child. A parent, sibling, or spouse is just not the same. Obviously other people are important, but it's not the same.

To those super hard core people saying you shouldn't have kids in residency or should go into lifestyle specialties, medicine is a calling, it should be your only priority etc when covering for others why aren't you thinking, "great, more work, more time to learn, this is why I went into surgery, to see everything and do as much as I can"? One could argue that those taking leave are actually giving you what you claim to want, every patient is a learning experience.

I am in an incredibly tough surgical specialty and a few years ago would have had a very different response to this thread but being pregnant changes you. Those saying they would simply have an abortion (something I used to say) have no idea how they would really respond if they got pregnant, a hypothetical, and reality are different.

Despite the above, I do think it is unfair that the extra on calls are forced onto others and working outside of the US find it a bit shocking that this is the way your system is set up. In the UK most doctors take several months, if not a year off after delivery, and don't work right up to it, regardless of specialty. Taking a full year is actually preferable in terms of work in many ways so you complete training at the normal time, just a year later. Any time off is added to the end of training but that is just the norm and accepted. The 6 weeks off you get in the US would mean extra training time for us anyway. Beyond the first 2 years, you can only take 2 weeks out for sickness etc without extending your training. For us no one is forced to do extra work to cover, the hospital will simply hire a locum if needed. So getting pregnant actually benefits other people, you give someone a job they otherwise wouldn't have had! I would be very angry about being forced to do extra cover with no compensation, they should at the very least pay you extra.

 

[tellmemore2020]

The hospital really should have a system to cover those on maternity leave (and provide paternity leave, like in some of the more progressive nations). Yes, it would be costly, but it should just be one of those accepted societal goods that you don't think much about. For all you being mad at mothers bonding with their newborns, I am sorry you have found yourself in a situation where you lost so much perspective on life.

 

[colbgw02]

I think expecting pregnant women to work extra on calls is unreasonable.

I can't say I've re-read every word of this thread since this post, but is there a single person on this thread that has proposed this?

 

[rokshana]

I think expecting pregnant women to work extra on calls is unreasonable. It is incredibly tiring being pregnant, even a normal schedule is very tough. Stress can cause problems in pregnancy, some of you are seriously expecting women to risk the health of their child? If anyone even suggested to me that I should ever do anything that could potentially hurt my child I would never speak to them again. I have had very bad experiences though so am probably far more touchy/concerned about risks than most people. I also think asking someone with a 6 week old baby at home to work extra on calls is unreasonable, male or female. I'm sure many people to try to arrange pregnancies around lighter schedules but some desperately struggle to get pregnant so can't necessarily do it when it's most convenient. There are obviously time limits on getting pregnant, you absolutely cannot expect anyone to potentially risk never having a baby so as not to interfere with work schedules.

Saying "everyone has a family" doesn't really fly with me. Ask anyone that has a child who they would rather die, their child, or literally anyone else in the world and you can bet no one would say their child. A parent, sibling, or spouse is just not the same. Obviously other people are important, but it's not the same.

To those super hard core people saying you shouldn't have kids in residency or should go into lifestyle specialties, medicine is a calling, it should be your only priority etc when covering for others why aren't you thinking, "great, more work, more time to learn, this is why I went into surgery, to see everything and do as much as I can"? One could argue that those taking leave are actually giving you what you claim to want, every patient is a learning experience.

I am in an incredibly tough surgical specialty and a few years ago would have had a very different response to this thread but being pregnant changes you. Those saying they would simply have an abortion (something I used to say) have no idea how they would really respond if they got pregnant, a hypothetical, and reality are different.

Despite the above, I do think it is unfair that the extra on calls are forced onto others and working outside of the US find it a bit shocking that this is the way your system is set up. In the UK most doctors take several months, if not a year off after delivery, and don't work right up to it, regardless of specialty. Taking a full year is actually preferable in terms of work in many ways so you complete training at the normal time, just a year later. Any time off is added to the end of training but that is just the norm and accepted. The 6 weeks off you get in the US would mean extra training time for us anyway. Beyond the first 2 years, you can only take 2 weeks out for sickness etc without extending your training. For us no one is forced to do extra work to cover, the hospital will simply hire a locum if needed. So getting pregnant actually benefits other people, you give someone a job they otherwise wouldn't have had! I would be very angry about being forced to do extra cover with no compensation, they should at the very least pay you extra.

you can't have it both way (or have your cake and eat it too)...if you think women should have the equal opportunity and be seen as equal in their field, then you can't then say we are too weak to be able to handle the responsibilities when pregnant and handle the role of a mother as a resident...pregnancy is not a disease...and there are plenty of pregnant residents that work while pregnant...and it s NOT the sole responsibility of the mother to take care of a 6 week old baby (she may WANT to be there longer with her baby and doesn't want to leave them, but so does EVERY working mother) there is (or generally there is) a father in the pix...again if you choose to have a baby, you have to shoulder the responsibilities of having a baby and if you choose to have a baby during residency, you should expect to handle the consequences of doing that during residency...not expect the rest of the residents to help you do so (most people ARE nice and want help,and you will get help , but you should not EXPECT that they will).

It is not, as some have said here, the mindset of the resident not having babies that should think, oh, people will have babies and I should have to shoulder their responsibilities, but its should be the mindset of the person who wants to have a baby in residency that I'm gonna have to worker harder for me to be able to have this baby during residency, both at work and at home. There ARE better times to have babies in residency (like your last year, your research year, etc) as there are residencies that are more receptive to pregnancies in residency...many many people pick specialties base on lifestyle, geographical location, etc...if family is that important than you should take that into consideration when deciding on your specialty or program.

and fine "everybody in the family" doesn't fly with you...but you are not everyone...for some family IS defined by those relationships and its not for you to decide that your relationship with you child is somehow more important that your co-residents relationship with their mother, father, husband, wife, niece, or nephew...

and its not EXTRA call...its the call that they were suppose to do and someone else had to do their work for them...and just as you said, if you think about the work as learning experiences, then the resident that takes time off to have a baby should not be deprived of that learning experience and should have the opportunity to get those calls back...

 

[bambi]

I can't say I've re-read every word of this thread since this post, but is there a single person on this thread that has proposed this?

People talked about front loading on calls prior to going on maternity leave which is what I was referring to.

 

[bambi]

you can't have it both way (or have your cake and eat it too)...if you think women should have the equal opportunity and be seen as equal in their field, then you can't then say we are too weak to be able to handle the responsibilities when pregnant and handle the role of a mother as a resident...pregnancy is not a disease...and there are plenty of pregnant residents that work while pregnant...and it s NOT the sole responsibility of the mother to take care of a 6 week old baby (she may WANT to be there longer with her baby and doesn't want to leave them, but so does EVERY working mother) there is (or generally there is) a father in the pix...again if you choose to have a baby, you have to shoulder the responsibilities of having a baby and if you choose to have a baby during residency, you should expect to handle the consequences of doing that during residency...not expect the rest of the residents to help you do so (most people ARE nice and want help,and you will get help , but you should not EXPECT that they will).

It is not, as some have said here, the mindset of the resident not having babies that should think, oh, people will have babies and I should have to shoulder their responsibilities, but its should be the mindset of the person who wants to have a baby in residency that I'm gonna have to worker harder for me to be able to have this baby during residency, both at work and at home. There ARE better times to have babies in residency (like your last year, your research year, etc) as there are residencies that are more receptive to pregnancies in residency...many many people pick specialties base on lifestyle, geographical location, etc...if family is that important than you should take that into consideration when deciding on your specialty or program.

and fine "everybody in the family" doesn't fly with you...but you are not everyone...for some family IS defined by those relationships and its not for you to decide that your relationship with you child is somehow more important that your co-residents relationship with their mother, father, husband, wife, niece, or nephew...

and its not EXTRA call...its the call that they were suppose to do and someone else had to do their work for them...and just as you said, if you think about the work as learning experiences, then the resident that takes time off to have a baby should not be deprived of that learning experience and should have the opportunity to get those calls back...

Have you been pregnant before? It is desperately tiring. Think of it as asking a man to do extra when unwell with something or strap a huge sack of sand to your belly for a few months and see how you feel. Don't you think you will be more tired than normal? It's not even just the weight making you tired. Being pregnant may not be an illness but it leads to a lot of difficult symptoms.

I never said it should be the woman responsible for taking care of the baby, I said anyone, male or female, shouldn't be expected to work extra hours when they have a 6 week old baby at home. At want point did I say women can't handle being a resident and mother? Having a child in residency is also not the choice some people here make it out to be. Of course in general it is but if you are doing a long residency you may not be fertile anymore at the end of it, you don't have to be as old as you might think to have fertility issues. I did a 4 month gynae job that ended up being mostly a fertility job and in every clinic the majority of patients were in their early 30s, had no health problems and couldn't get pregnant, despite getting pregnant with no problems in their 20s.

I think it's incredibly sexist and generally out of line to suggest anyone avoid a certain specialty because they have kids, particularly in the US actually. You are limited in terms of leave so other than about 10 months (per kid) you can function the way anyone else does, how much impact do you really think those 10 months have on a 30+ year career. In the UK it is a little more of a reasonable argument because people can take excessive leave, be part time pretty much forever etc so it can impact someones career much more.

While people aren't suggesting extra on calls overall because of having kids you are all suggesting them either before or immediately after maternity leave. My point was more that your system is screwed up but some people on this thread have very unrealistic ideas about the realities of pregnancy. Anyone comparing having a niece or nephew to having a child of their own is incredibly naive and quite frankly delusional. I am not saying other people don't want to spend time with other family members but those relationships are not the same. Have you seen Air Force One? Where the bad guy tells Harrison Ford to decide if he kills his daughter or his wife? It's not even a question. I'm sure until you have kids you wont understand that sort of thing and that's fine but you need to at least be aware that you may be being naive.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I foresee someone here asking for all holidays off as a future consultant because her family is more important than her childless colleagues'. I've avoided commenting until now but this entitled attitude is highly offensive.

You can't compare the UK to the U.S. There are no legal protections for jobs outside of standard maternity leave; new mothers in the UK can take a year off because they'll be paid and have a job to return. U.S. Employers are not mandated to do that and this is true both within and without medicine. So you're blaming the U.S. Medical system for something that is prevalent in all industries. Furthermore, U.S. resident physicians are under the same restrictions about leave as you are: most speciality boards in the U.S. do not allow more than 4 weeks off per year without extending training. Because of the timeline for fellowship training and job hunting, most prefer not to extend training if they don't have to.

Finally no one is expecting a pregnant resident to work more than their fair share and not be paid. They are simply stating that since her absence will create more work for her colleagues, she should recognize their sacrifice and attempt to pay it back. I took an unexpected medical leave during residency and was eternally grateful for my colleagues who took on my share of the work; you can bet that when I came back I took more call and more weekends to make up for it. That's all anyone wants.

 

[giantswing]

Have you been pregnant before? It is desperately tiring. Think of it as asking a man to do extra when unwell with something or strap a huge sack of sand to your belly for a few months and see how you feel. Don't you think you will be more tired than normal? It's not even just the weight making you tired. Being pregnant may not be an illness but it leads to a lot of difficult symptoms.

I never said it should be the woman responsible for taking care of the baby, I said anyone, male or female, shouldn't be expected to work extra hours when they have a 6 week old baby at home. At want point did I say women can't handle being a resident and mother? Having a child in residency is also not the choice some people here make it out to be. Of course in general it is but if you are doing a long residency you may not be fertile anymore at the end of it, you don't have to be as old as you might think to have fertility issues. I did a 4 month gynae job that ended up being mostly a fertility job and in every clinic the majority of patients were in their early 30s, had no health problems and couldn't get pregnant, despite getting pregnant with no problems in their 20s.

I think it's incredibly sexist and generally out of line to suggest anyone avoid a certain specialty because they have kids, particularly in the US actually. You are limited in terms of leave so other than about 10 months (per kid) you can function the way anyone else does, how much impact do you really think those 10 months have on a 30+ year career. In the UK it is a little more of a reasonable argument because people can take excessive leave, be part time pretty much forever etc so it can impact someones career much more.

While people aren't suggesting extra on calls overall because of having kids you are all suggesting them either before or immediately after maternity leave. My point was more that your system is screwed up but some people on this thread have very unrealistic ideas about the realities of pregnancy. Anyone comparing having a niece or nephew to having a child of their own is incredibly naive and quite frankly delusional. I am not saying other people don't want to spend time with other family members but those relationships are not the same. Have you seen Air Force One? Where the bad guy tells Harrison Ford to decide if he kills his daughter or his wife? It's not even a question. I'm sure until you have kids you wont understand that sort of thing and that's fine but you need to at least be aware that you may be being naive.

Oh, shocker, you're an ob gyn resident. Im sure your residency is going to be a lot more forgiving of being preg than neuro surg or ortho.

Really? Your tired is worth more than my tired because you're pregnant?

Having children is a choice.

And don't play the "you don't know love until you have kids " card. Because until you have kids you're just a big meanie.

 

[22031 Alum]

Stress can cause problems in pregnancy, some of you are seriously expecting women to risk the health of their child?

That is a layperson level understanding of what stress is. You're an OB resident? Find me a well-done study that associates stress with poor pregnancy outcomes that does not involve 1) patients dealing with war, famine, and other things causing imminent threat of death or 2) stressors such as homelessness or other illnesses that come with a multitude of confounding co-morbidities. Taking extra call is not that kind of stress, and front-loading calls in your second or even third trimesters is not risking the health of your child. Come on.

 

[dpmd]

That is a layperson level understanding of what stress is. You're an OB resident? Find me a well-done study that associates stress with poor pregnancy outcomes that does not involve 1) patients dealing with war, famine, and other things causing imminent threat of death or 2) stressors such as homelessness or other illnesses that come with a multitude of confounding co-morbidities. Taking extra call is not that kind of stress, and front-loading calls in your second or even third trimesters is not risking the health of your child. Come on.

Now the IM resident who got put on bedrest towards the end of her pregnancy, but conducted rounds from a rolling office chair instead of actually remaining in bed might have been risking the health of her child. However, she didn't want to take more time off than she had to (for reasons of extending training mostly, but not putting extra work on others also factored in to it). Fortunately it turned out fine.

 

[colbgw02]

People talked about front loading on calls prior to going on maternity leave which is what I was referring to.

People referenced it as an option, as in maybe the pregnant residency would prefer to take a few more calls early in pregnancy than wait to make it all up after returning from maternity leave. I still haven't seen anyone "expect" a resident do more than her fair share while pregnant.

 

[Mass Effect]

OMG!! how do you NOT get it???? its not about making it EASIER for him in residency...that is NOT what he is saying...he is saying why should he have to support someone making his life HARDER than it already is! Yes people will have babies in residency, but just like any choice you make, you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of your decision...have a baby in residency and other people have to do your work for you, then well, you should have to make for the work you missed when you come back...simple as that.

It's funny that you keep arguing that, yet I've said several times that I AGREE. I don't know how much more clear I can be about it. I DO think that you should offer to take more call when returning from maternity leave. I've said it countless times now.

 

[bambi]

Oh, shocker, you're an ob gyn resident. Im sure your residency is going to be a lot more forgiving of being preg than neuro surg or ortho.

Really? Your tired is worth more than my tired because you're pregnant?

Having children is a choice.

And don't play the "you don't know love until you have kids " card. Because until you have kids you're just a big meanie.

No, I am not an ob gyn resident!!! Our training in the UK is very different to yours. Our first 2 years consist of 6 different jobs, one of those happened to be a gynae job for me. I am in a far more competitive specialty.

 

[bambi]

That is a layperson level understanding of what stress is. You're an OB resident? Find me a well-done study that associates stress with poor pregnancy outcomes that does not involve 1) patients dealing with war, famine, and other things causing imminent threat of death or 2) stressors such as homelessness or other illnesses that come with a multitude of confounding co-morbidities. Taking extra call is not that kind of stress, and front-loading calls in your second or even third trimesters is not risking the health of your child. Come on.

There are plenty of articles actually, I was forced to research it at one point.

Have you ever been pregnant? Some things people simply should not be commenting on unless they have because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[22031 Alum]

No, I am not an ob gyn resident!!! Our training in the UK is very different to yours. Our first 2 years consist of 6 different jobs, one of those happened to be a gynae job for me. I am in a far more competitive specialty.

Guys, she's in a far more competitive specialty, and she has been pregnant. I don't know about you, but this obstetrics attending has been completely shut down. Everything I thought I knew about pregnancy is wrong. I'm submitting my resignation first thing Monday morning- after I tell all my patients to stop working immediately, lest the stress instantly kill their fetuses.

 

[bambi]

I foresee someone here asking for all holidays off as a future consultant because her family is more important than her childless colleagues'. I've avoided commenting until now but this entitled attitude is highly offensive.

You can't compare the UK to the U.S. There are no legal protections for jobs outside of standard maternity leave; new mothers in the UK can take a year off because they'll be paid and have a job to return. U.S. Employers are not mandated to do that and this is true both within and without medicine. So you're blaming the U.S. Medical system for something that is prevalent in all industries. Furthermore, U.S. resident physicians are under the same restrictions about leave as you are: most speciality boards in the U.S. do not allow more than 4 weeks off per year without extending training. Because of the timeline for fellowship training and job hunting, most prefer not to extend training if they don't have to.

Finally no one is expecting a pregnant resident to work more than their fair share and not be paid. They are simply stating that since her absence will create more work for her colleagues, she should recognize their sacrifice and attempt to pay it back. I took an unexpected medical leave during residency and was eternally grateful for my colleagues who took on my share of the work; you can bet that when I came back I took more call and more weekends to make up for it. That's all anyone wants.

I am not sure how much of this is aimed at me? Although I am comparing the US and the UK it was more just for information and most of the world actually follows what the UK does so for those of us outside the US this sort of thing is shocking.

At no point did I say anything about pregnant women doing more than their fair share overall or not being paid??? I'm also not saying that other residents should suffer in any way, I'm saying your system absolutely sucks and puts everyone involved in awful positions. Either you're another resident and are forced to do more work in a certain period of time than you otherwise would. Or, you have a baby and are forced to work extra calls before or after giving birth when it's the last thing you want to do.

 

[bambi]

Guys, she's in a far more competitive specialty, and she has been pregnant. I don't know about you, but this obstetrics attending has been completely shut down. Everything I thought I knew about pregnancy is wrong. I'm submitting my resignation first thing Monday morning.

Some of you are either really just quite unpleasant people or are incredibly naive. Shut down? Because I have experience of what I am talking about unlike most of you and I dare to disagree with some of you? Well actually I'm not really sure I have disagreed with a whole lot. I don't think anyone should be forced to do extra on calls, pregnant, sick, or not. I think your system sucks which is essentially all I was getting at. It seems to be quite common on this board that people just randomly rant when people disagree with them no matter the level of experience of either. A few years ago I would have had a very different view point but people grow up, have different experiences, and change, maybe some of you will too when you are on the other side of things.

Seriously I am not an obs consultant!! Quite frankly the most disgusting thing I have ever seen is a baby being born. I would rather not say anything that identifies me but there is no specialty in the US as competitive as mine is in the UK. We just have so few jobs the level of competition in some specialties is insane. That is irrelevant anyway, the way people are with pregnancy here doesn't really vary much between specialties except GP where most people end up part time.

 

[bambi]

Double post

 

[touchpause13]

I think there is entitlement on both sides to be honest.

Being pregnant and expecting everyone to bend over backwards for you or not be annoyed when they end up picking up some of your slack is unreasonable.

Saying that women shouldn't have kids in residency or acting like it's some sort of a cakewalk is also douchey.

I think a little understanding and kindness would go a long way. If you are pregnant try and pick up extra shifts when you are back, front load, and be really appreciative towards your fellow residents.
If one of you Co residents is pregnant don't be a douche about it, and say rude things.

Tl;dr - if you're gonna be a dingus about pregnancy you're gonna have a bad time

 

[22031 Alum]

I would rather not say anything that identifies me but there is no specialty in the US as competitive as mine is in the UK.

I think we actually agree on US maternity leave policies. I was just being snotty to you because there was no reason on Earth to bring up the above, repeatedly, except to be snotty. It did nothing to strengthen any point you were trying to make. A simple "I'm not an OB" would have sufficed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I am not sure how much of this is aimed at me? Although I am comparing the US and the UK it was more just for information and most of the world actually follows what the UK does so for those of us outside the US this sort of thing is shocking.

If that was your goal (to change the topic to how things are handled in your country) then you could have stated that in a less obstreperous way. And by the by, in medicine at least, the "rest of the world" does not follow the UK or how do you explain the proliferation of "American style" 4 year post grad medical programs in the Commonwealth?

At no point did I say anything about pregnant women doing more than their fair share overall or not being paid???

Right here is what I was referring to:

I would be very angry about being forced to do extra cover with no compensation, they should at the very least pay you extra.

I assumed you were talking about the pregnant or new mother working extra shifts to cover for her absence. I apologize if I misunderstood.

Have you ever been pregnant? Some things people simply should not be commenting on unless they have because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you really pulling out that canard? I suppose since I've never had breast cancer I can't comment on that. Or male surgeons shouldn't be taking care of female patients with Ob/Gyn or breast related problems.

The point of the thread was to discuss how we feel when a colleague feels entitled to work less/ have special favors because they have a child. The entitlement continues after training and I think it's a worthwhile topic. I agree that none should be dictating whether a colleague should or when to have a baby.

 

[bambi]

I think we actually agree on US maternity leave policies. I was just being snotty to you because there was no reason on Earth to bring up the above, repeatedly, except to be snotty. It did nothing to strengthen any point you were trying to make. A simple "I'm not an OB" would have sufficed.

Noted. I think at the time it was to show that despite my perhaps softer views I am in a very tough specialty, not one typical of those sorts of views.

 

[bambi]

If that was your goal (to change the topic to how things are handled in your country) then you could have stated that in a less obstreperous way. And by the by, in medicine at least, the "rest of the world" does not follow the UK or how do you explain the proliferation of "American style" 4 year post grad medical programs in the Commonwealth?



Right here is what I was referring to:



I assumed you were talking about the pregnant or new mother working extra shifts to cover for her absence. I apologize if I misunderstood.

[QUOTE="bambi]
Have you ever been pregnant? Some things people simply should not be commenting on unless they have because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you really pulling out that canard? I suppose since I've never had breast cancer I can't comment on that. Or make surgeons shouldn't be taking care of female patients with Ob/Gyn or breast related problems.

The point of the thread was to discuss how we feel when a colleague feels entitled to work less/ have special favors because they have a child. The entitlement continues after training and I think it's a worthwhile topic. I agree that none should be dictating whether a colleague should or when to have a baby.

I mean in terms of maternity leave the rest of the world is more similar to the UK than the US. In a lot of Europe now the leave can be split between mum and dad any way you like and is multiple months.

I think whether or not a person has actually been pregnant is actually very relevant here I'm afraid. I didn't know I was pregnant at first and couldn't understand why I literally couldn't keep my eyes open despite having 9-10 hours of sleep when I'm used to 3-4. It is desperately tiring, and terrifying. Having been through that changes your perspective. Even just a few years ago, my response to this thread would have been, "don't have kids during residency, I would have an abortion if I got pregnant accidentally, if I did it on purpose I would work right up to delivery and go straight back to work" etc. People here without kids/that have never been pregnant need to at least acknowledge that their understanding of the reality of pregnancy is limited. No matter what, I think it's unfair that others are forced to do extra to cover, I always have to cover for people for various reasons, and it pisses me off. It is a problem with the system though, not the individual. Fine, people should be nice to those covering them but if the system was better that just wouldn't be an issue and you shouldn't have to kiss ass to not have to jump straight back in your scrubs after giving birth.