Is being a dentist really that bad?

[Cold Front]

Everything is trending down. A college degree is no longer guarantee of a good life. It's not easy to make money nowadays. At least your kids won't be in debt like you if they choose to follow your footstep. You can provide for your kids more than what your parents had done for you.

I agree, everything is trending down. But dentistry is trending down at a faster pace than most professions, financially.

There is a “how much do you make?” Reddit thread that I recently came across for my city. Just as a reference, average dentist here makes about $200-250k… many make less.

- Public School Teacher $106k (17 years experience)
- Mailman $100k (base $60k + $40k overtime)
- Cloud Solutions Engineer $120k (7 years of experience)
- Crane Operator $125k (free healthcare and retirement)
- Firefighter $130k ($85k is base + bonuses + overtime)
- Tax Accountant $120k (not CPA, 16 years of experience)
- Finance manager $150k (Total compensation)
- Tons of Techs making $200k+.
- Construction managers averaging $200k.
- Nurses $100k (with overtime and traveling)

$100k is the new $60k from 2010 where I live, a relatively fast growing Midwest city. Imagine if those people worked in much bigger cities, they would make more. Due to cost of living adjustment. It’s the opposite in dentistry, you move to a big city, you make less as a dentist. Many other good and decent professions with only a bachelor degrees (and no insane student loans) will make the same income, in some cases more, than a dentist.

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[charlestweed]

I agree, everything is trending down. But dentistry is trending down at a faster pace than most professions, financially.

There is a “how much do you make?” Reddit thread that I recently came across for my city. Just as a reference, average dentist here makes about $200-250k… many make less.

- Public School Teacher $106k (17 years experience)
- Mailman $100k (base $60k + $40k overtime)
- Cloud Solutions Engineer $120k (7 years of experience)
- Crane Operator $125k (free healthcare and retirement)
- Firefighter $130k ($85k is base + bonuses + overtime)
- Tax Accountant $120k (not CPA, 16 years of experience)
- Finance manager $150k (Total compensation)
- Tons of Techs making $200k+.
- Construction managers averaging $200k.
- Nurses $100k (with overtime and traveling)

$100k is the new $60k from 2010 where I live, a relatively fast growing Midwest city. Imagine if those people worked in much bigger cities, they would make more. Due to cost of living adjustment. It’s the opposite in dentistry, you move to a big city, you make less as a dentist. Many other good and decent professions with only a bachelor degrees (and no insane student loans) will make the same income, in some cases more, than a dentist.

Then why do more than 50% of the millennials move back home to live with their parents after college? (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). I don’t think dentistry is trending down faster than other professions. Last weekend, I met my MD anesthesiologist cousin again….and he complained to me about how the mid level practioners have slowly replaced the physicians.

It’s not easy for new grad teachers to get jobs at public schools because of job stability and good retirement package. Many teachers have to get lower paid jobs at private schools…they have to wait for a long time before they can find opened positions at public schools. It takes 17 years for a public school teacher to reach the $106k salary. I know some dentists who start enjoying their semi-retire life after much less than 17 years of practicing. ColdFront, you are one of these dentists. Jst21121 is another one….he’s only 35yo. I work 3 hrs a day when I am at my own office.

My CPA is at least 10 years older than me and he is still working hard. He used to work as a real estate agent on the side.

Lack of Job stability is the problem for many people who are in non-health professions. And when they get laid off, it's not easy for them to find another similar paid job.

 

[Cold Front]

Then why do more than 50% of the millennials move back home to live with their parents after college? (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). I don’t think dentistry is trending down faster than other professions. Last weekend, I met my MD anesthesiologist cousin again….and he complained to me about how the mid level practioners have slowly replaced the physicians.

It’s not easy for new grad teachers to get jobs at public schools because of job stability and good retirement package. Many teachers have to get lower paid jobs at private schools…they have to wait for a long time before they can find opened positions at public schools. It takes 17 years for a public school teacher to reach the $106k salary. I know some dentists who start enjoying their semi-retire life after much less than 17 years of practicing. ColdFront, you are one of these dentists. Jst21121 is another one….he’s only 35yo. I work 3 hrs a day when I am at my own office.

My CPA is at least 10 years older than me and he is still working hard. He used to work as a real estate agent on the side.

Lack of Job stability is the problem for many people who are in non-health professions. And when they get laid off, it's not easy for them to find another similar paid job.

Most young adults under age 30 are still living with their parents because home and rental prices have gone up way too high the last 3 years.

Dentists income is mostly pegged to the dental insurance industry reimbursements. If insurances don’t raise fees, which they rarely do, the average dentist income doesn’t go up. To make matters worse, dentist income can’t be adjusted by anyone else, even employers - because it’s based on a percentage of production. If inflation is high, each dollar of the production dollar depreciates - less purchase power for dentists. But a regular blue or white collar job, most get 3%+ raises each year. Eventually a $60k job in other fields can turn to $100k job in 10-15 years by simply requesting a raise each year - or finding another employer that pays little higher with the same job description and effort. That’s not the case for dentistry, a $200k job doesn’t easily turn to $300k income over the same period..: you have to work at least 3%+ harder each year over time. So basically produce 50% more dentistry in 10-15 years and hope that extra 50% of procedures are all paid by insurances. You might have do 60% more dentistry just to get the full 50%. Unless you accept no insurance or own your own practice, which is hard do for at least 90% of dentists.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Most young adults under age 30 are still living with their parents because home and rental prices have gone up way too high the last 3 years.

Dentists income is mostly pegged to the dental insurance industry reimbursements. If insurances don’t raise fees, which they rarely do, the average dentist income doesn’t go up. To make matters worse, dentist income can’t be adjusted by anyone else, even employers - because it’s based on a percentage of production. If inflation is high, each dollar of the production dollar depreciates - less purchase power for dentists. But a regular blue or white collar job, most get 3%+ raises each year. Eventually a $60k job in other fields can turn to $100k job in 10-15 years by simply requesting a raise each year - or finding another employer that pays little higher with the same job description and effort. That’s not the case for dentistry, a $200k job doesn’t easily turn to $300k income over the same period..: you have to work at least 3%+ harder each year over time. So basically produce 50% more dentistry in 10-15 years and hope that extra 50% of procedures are all paid by insurances. You might have do 60% more dentistry just to get the full 50%. Unless you accept no insurance or own your own practice, which is hard do for at least 90% of dentists.

Exactly.

Covid pandemic has brought up pretty much the biggest flaw for dentistry which you just explained.

 

[charlestweed]

Most young adults under age 30 are still living with their parents because home and rental prices have gone up way too high the last 3 years.

This shows that there are NOT a lot of good paying jobs out there. These new college grads don’t make enough to pay for rents, which have increased drastically in the last 3 years. They have to get jobs that are not related to what they majored in college. The increase in their salaries is not enough to cover the increase in rents and home prices. That’s why many have to move back to live with their parents. Most dentists don’t have problem paying rents (or buying a small starter home) despite smaller increase (or no increase) in their salaries.

a $200k job doesn’t easily turn to $300k income over the same period..: you have to work at least 3%+ harder each year over time. So basically produce 50% more dentistry in 10-15 years and hope that extra 50% of procedures are all paid by insurances. You might have do 60% more dentistry just to get the full 50%. Unless you accept no insurance or own your own practice, which is hard do for at least 90% of dentists.

No, it’s not easy to increase another $100k without any effort….not only for dentistry but for other jobs as well. To get $100k/year more, a dentist will have to work one additional day per week…. 5 instead of 4 days/week…..or 6 instead of 5 days/wk. For a software engineer to increase his salary $100k/year more, he can’t just show up and do the same repetitive job every single day. If he does that, his job will be replaced by a younger grad. To get paid more, he has to work hard to update his skills or gets a different better paid job, which usually requires more effort and responsibility. There is no such thing as easy money.

Jobs that pay well and have good retirement package are usually government jobs because the government don’t care about profitability. The problem is those jobs are not easy to get because people don’t quit good paying job with good retirement package.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Never mind ColdFront hit all the key points

 

[Splenda88]

I agree, everything is trending down. But dentistry is trending down at a faster pace than most professions, financially.

There is a “how much do you make?” Reddit thread that I recently came across for my city. Just as a reference, average dentist here makes about $200-250k… many make less.

- Public School Teacher $106k (17 years experience)
- Mailman $100k (base $60k + $40k overtime)
- Cloud Solutions Engineer $120k (7 years of experience)
- Crane Operator $125k (free healthcare and retirement)
- Firefighter $130k ($85k is base + bonuses + overtime)
- Tax Accountant $120k (not CPA, 16 years of experience)
- Finance manager $150k (Total compensation)
- Tons of Techs making $200k+.
- Construction managers averaging $200k.
- Nurses $100k (with overtime and traveling)

$100k is the new $60k from 2010 where I live, a relatively fast growing Midwest city. Imagine if those people worked in much bigger cities, they would make more. Due to cost of living adjustment. It’s the opposite in dentistry, you move to a big city, you make less as a dentist. Many other good and decent professions with only a bachelor degrees (and no insane student loans) will make the same income, in some cases more, than a dentist.

I guess everyone makes 200k+ per year when the data say otherwise

Income Percentile Calculator for the United States

The income percentile calculator for individual US income in 2022. See average, median, and top 1%. What percentage of earners were you?

dqydj.com

Percentage of Households Making Over 200k 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[Cold Front]

I guess everyone makes 200k+ per year when the data say otherwise

Income Percentile Calculator for the United States

The income percentile calculator for individual US income in 2022. See average, median, and top 1%. What percentage of earners were you?

dqydj.com

Percentage of Households Making Over 200k 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

I don’t know anything about that, but most Americans are getting much better pay than pre Covid levels, while dentists are not… because the compensation models are very much different.

With the increase of new dental schools, there will be downward pressure to dentists income as the supply and demand balance tips to more saturation. Increasing student debt payments means less take home for young dentists. I mean, there is a limit to how hard you can work, and I personally think we reached the threshold where $500k+ in student loans can’t be supported with $250k pre tax income anymore for the first 5-10 years of this career - because your experience and speed is still picking up, and you’d be up against inflation, and as a young adult… expenses are typically very high early on in life. Buying a new home, new car, marriage, kids, etc. It can be a tight ship for a while. Maybe until mid 30s or even 40s. That bar is getting raised every year.

 

[wibago]

I agree, everything is trending down. But dentistry is trending down at a faster pace than most professions, financially.

There is a “how much do you make?” Reddit thread that I recently came across for my city. Just as a reference, average dentist here makes about $200-250k… many make less.

- Public School Teacher $106k (17 years experience)
- Mailman $100k (base $60k + $40k overtime)
- Cloud Solutions Engineer $120k (7 years of experience)
- Crane Operator $125k (free healthcare and retirement)
- Firefighter $130k ($85k is base + bonuses + overtime)
- Tax Accountant $120k (not CPA, 16 years of experience)
- Finance manager $150k (Total compensation)
- Tons of Techs making $200k+.
- Construction managers averaging $200k.
- Nurses $100k (with overtime and traveling)

$100k is the new $60k from 2010 where I live, a relatively fast growing Midwest city. Imagine if those people worked in much bigger cities, they would make more. Due to cost of living adjustment. It’s the opposite in dentistry click here, you move to a big city, you make less as a dentist. Many other good and decent professions with only a bachelor degrees (and no insane student loans) will make the same income, in some cases more, than a dentist.

I'm currently a dental student in my first year and I've seen numerous forums and discussions about the fall of dentistry. I want to see if any new grads or dental students have any concerns or positive insights/myth-busters. Also, no I'm not in dentistry just for the money. I like the detailed manual work and I think I'm kind of good at it for someone who just started. But the concerns listed online are so overwhelming that it makes me think my interest in the profession is not going to be enough for me to even pay off my student debt let alone make a comfortable living.

 

[juniordentist]

I'm currently a dental student in my first year and I've seen numerous forums and discussions about the fall of dentistry. I want to see if any new grads or dental students have any concerns or positive insights/myth-busters. Also, no I'm not in dentistry just for the money. I like the detailed manual work and I think I'm kind of good at it for someone who just started. But the concerns listed online are so overwhelming that it makes me think my interest in the profession is not going to be enough for me to even pay off my student debt let alone make a comfortable living.

My advice is the are lots of opinions about this. The only legitimate opinions are those who have graduated within the last 5 years. You need to find these people and talk to them. These are the people who are experiencing what life is actually like repaying the loans, and what the job market is like. Generally the feedback I hear from these people are anything up to 350k debt at graduation and it's worth it.
Dental students and predents are clueless. Actually clueless. Their opinion isn't worth anything. Their opinions are based off what they hear from their parents and their generation, who are out of touch with how things have changed.
Older established dentists' opinions are just as useless. They graduated in a different era. Dentistry has changed and they are oblivious to how things are for the new generation

 

[Cold Front]

I'm currently a dental student in my first year and I've seen numerous forums and discussions about the fall of dentistry. I want to see if any new grads or dental students have any concerns or positive insights/myth-busters. Also, no I'm not in dentistry just for the money. I like the detailed manual work and I think I'm kind of good at it for someone who just started. But the concerns listed online are so overwhelming that it makes me think my interest in the profession is not going to be enough for me to even pay off my student debt let alone make a comfortable living.

There are some exceptions, but the majority of new grads are still assimilating to the financial realities the profession offers. Dentistry is still cool and fun job, but it has been exploited by schools with higher tuition and fees to get in, insurances with absolute power to dictate if what a dentist does in a patient’s month should be paid at a fee that is in their best interest, and the ever growing corporate dentistry that lures young dentists with “cool gigs” and trick them to looking away from owning a private practice and their full financial potential. It will probably take many years after school to understand what dentistry has morphed into over the past couple of decades or so. If new breed of young dentists have no reference point, they will be far more receptive and be ok with the growing issues in dentistry than older dentists… specifically the Millennial and Gen X dentists who have worked long enough to experience those challenges and have no choice but to live with it, than Boomers who don’t care and getting ready to retire soon.

 

[Cold Front]

My advice is the are lots of opinions about this. The only legitimate opinions are those who have graduated within the last 5 years. You need to find these people and talk to them. These are the people who are experiencing what life is actually like repaying the loans, and what the job market is like. Generally the feedback I hear from these people are anything up to 350k debt at graduation and it's worth it.
Dental students and predents are clueless. Actually clueless. Their opinion isn't worth anything. Their opinions are based off what they hear from their parents and their generation, who are out of touch with how things have changed.
Older established dentists' opinions are just as useless. They graduated in a different era. Dentistry has changed and they are oblivious to how things are for the new generation

The data speaks for itself. Even if new dentists are lucky enough to graduate under 350k today, they are still incrementally worse off than dentists who graduated a year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago - in terms of student loans and in effort to make easy income. It’s not like the income has proportionally gone up during that period to compensate for the higher student debt. I’m not saying this applies to every dentist, but the majority are too naive to assume that we are “not” in an evolving profession, and so far that has not be in favor for the economics of practicing dentistry. Ask any dentist between 35-55 yr old if they would push their kids to pursue dentistry today. I would be very surprised if the majority say “yes”, for all the reasons I mentioned in my last couple of posts.

 

[DDS9994]

I agree, everything is trending down. But dentistry is trending down at a faster pace than most professions, financially.

There is a “how much do you make?” Reddit thread that I recently came across for my city. Just as a reference, average dentist here makes about $200-250k… many make less.

- Public School Teacher $106k (17 years experience)
- Mailman $100k (base $60k + $40k overtime)
- Cloud Solutions Engineer $120k (7 years of experience)
- Crane Operator $125k (free healthcare and retirement)
- Firefighter $130k ($85k is base + bonuses + overtime)
- Tax Accountant $120k (not CPA, 16 years of experience)
- Finance manager $150k (Total compensation)
- Tons of Techs making $200k+.
- Construction managers averaging $200k.
- Nurses $100k (with overtime and traveling)

$100k is the new $60k from 2010 where I live, a relatively fast growing Midwest city. Imagine if those people worked in much bigger cities, they would make more. Due to cost of living adjustment. It’s the opposite in dentistry, you move to a big city, you make less as a dentist. Many other good and decent professions with only a bachelor degrees (and no insane student loans) will make the same income, in some cases more, than a dentist.

I'm currently a dental student in my first year and I've seen numerous forums and discussions about the fall of dentistry. I want to see if any new grads or dental students have any concerns or positive insights/myth-busters. Also, no I'm not in dentistry just for the money. I like the detailed manual work and I think I'm kind of good at it for someone who just started. But the concerns listed online are so overwhelming that it makes me think my interest in the profession is not going to be enough for me to even pay off my student debt let alone make a comfortable living.

You are entering at a critical time for dental, but the reality is you already signed up for it and are in it. So you really need to plan out the future, first get thru DS, all this means nothing if you dont graduate. But if you are one of these guys who ends up witha big laon amount 300 and up, then long term you need to own and bust your ass, thats it. Working for a DSO is not the answer longterm, when I came out it was common to make 35% to 40 of collections, now its more like 30 to 25%. In alot of these places you will need to produce 1,000,000 just to make a 250K salary, and you dont even get all the deductions a bussiness owners gets or the pass thru expenses. So work at a DSO, get your speed in, save cash, to show the bank and then buy an office or do a startup IF you can find a homerun location, thats a big "IF".

 

[charlestweed]

Dentistry is still a great recession proof profession if one can get the student loan debt (and spending) under control. And it’s not going to be easy… requires a lot of effort and sacrifices. Forget about working 4 or less days a week during the first 5-10 years if you owe more than $500k. But once you are debt free (hopefully in your mid 30s), you can start enjoying life. When you are debt free, you can easily be in the top 5% income earning group.

It’s not a good comparison when a lot of dentists only work 3-4 days/wk while most people in other professions work the normal 5 days/wk schedule. If you want to compare salaries between different professions, don’t compare the annual salaries….. compare the hourly wages instead…..apple to apple comparison.

Dental income is not limited by the insurance companies but rather by the number of hours the dentists work. When a dentist works less than 5 days/wk, he has not yet maximized his income earning potential. Unlike medicine, there are still some patients who pay cash in dentistry and you can raise fees on those patients. Keep the overhead low. Cross train assistant to perform multiple tasks so you don’t have to hire too many assistants. Being efficient is key.

 

[charlestweed]

My advice is the are lots of opinions about this. The only legitimate opinions are those who have graduated within the last 5 years. You need to find these people and talk to them. These are the people who are experiencing what life is actually like repaying the loans, and what the job market is like. Generally the feedback I hear from these people are anything up to 350k debt at graduation and it's worth it.
Dental students and predents are clueless. Actually clueless. Their opinion isn't worth anything. Their opinions are based off what they hear from their parents and their generation, who are out of touch with how things have changed.
Older established dentists' opinions are just as useless. They graduated in a different era. Dentistry has changed and they are oblivious to how things are for the new generation

Advice from older dentists like me are not useless. If the new grads work hard 5-6 days/wk like us (when we were younger.... in our excellent health shape), they will be far ahead of people who are in non-dental field even when they only make 1/3 of what we used to make. Our hard work allowed us to own multiple houses. New grads' hard work should allow them to own and pay off at least one house way before their retirement age.....and they should be able to take vacation every year.

When my assistants take their 1 wk paid vacation, they usually stay home ....not working for that week. They can't afford to travel.... even a plane ticket is too expensive for them.

 

[yappy]

I'm currently a dental student in my first year and I've seen numerous forums and discussions about the fall of dentistry. I want to see if any new grads or dental students have any concerns or positive insights/myth-busters. Also, no I'm not in dentistry just for the money. I like the detailed manual work and I think I'm kind of good at it for someone who just started. But the concerns listed online are so overwhelming that it makes me think my interest in the profession is not going to be enough for me to even pay off my student debt let alone make a comfortable living.

Im not that far out from graduation and I was able to pay my loans off in ~3.5 years. I make ~300k as an associate at 5 days per week. I enjoy my job. Some of my friends have bought practices, or started practices, and seem to be doing well too. The most unhappy people I know in dentistry are the ones that end up not liking it, or those who would prefer to not work while their kids are young, but cannot due to debt.

Dentistry has beaten inflation for 40 years before the pandemic. However, people are concerned because inflation has increased rapidly, beyond dental services. Dental service pricing has a longer feed back loop than other industries because of insurance agreements. Where I work we are renegotiating fees to increase reimbursement, which will mitigate the issue.

 

[AONLINE]

My advice is the are lots of opinions about this. The only legitimate opinions are those who have graduated within the last 5 years. You need to find these people and talk to them. These are the people who are experiencing what life is actually like repaying the loans, and what the job market is like. Generally the feedback I hear from these people are anything up to 350k debt at graduation and it's worth it.
Dental students and predents are clueless. Actually clueless. Their opinion isn't worth anything. Their opinions are based off what they hear from their parents and their generation, who are out of touch with how things have changed.
Older established dentists' opinions are just as useless. They graduated in a different era. Dentistry has changed and they are oblivious to how things are for the new generation

@wibago FWIW, I am a newer dentist, I graduated in 2021. I owe less than 200k in student loans and I make decent money working as an associate (I get paid somewhere between 30-35% of collections). I work 36 hours/wk, which is more than many of dental school classmates (most of them work 32 hrs/wk) but less than my software engineer friends (they can work 45-50 hrs when they have deadlines) and way less than my medical colleagues. I live in a large metro in the Midwest, quite saturated with the presence of a dental school but there are plenty of DSO jobs that pay their associates 200k-250k. There is actually not much to complain about these DSO jobs, you go to work, clock in and once you clock out you don't have to worry about anything job-related. I don't know of any dentists in my area that struggle to find a job. Happy to share more if you have any questions.

 

[Splenda88]

@charlestweed @yappy @AONLINE

So why all the doom and gloom then?

 

[charlestweed]

@charlestweed @yappy @AONLINE

So why all the doom and gloom then?

The doomsayers here were not wrong about the decline of the dental profession (high tuitions that continue to rise every year, oversaturation due to opening of new dental schools, expansion of corp offices etc). Consequently, recent grad dentists have to work harder, work faster, and see more patients in order to earn the same income as the dentists who graduated 10-20 years ago. And nobody wants to work harder....the whole point of getting an education is to work less and make more. That’s why some dentists here advise the young predents to pursue something else. But what they don’t realize is there are not a lot of good paying jobs out there. A college degree is no longer guarantee of a good life. My HS calculus teacher had to deliver newspapers on the side to support his family. Engineers got laid off left and right…and some had to go back to school to pursue dentistry. Even with the decline, dentists still earn very good income….they are still in the top 5%.

We, California dentists, saw enough of these oversaturation and corp expansion problems long before everyone else. We’ve learned to adapt. We’ve worked hard. Many of us accept medicaid. Many of us do our own cleaning instead of hiring the hygienists.

 

[yappy]

@charlestweed @yappy @AONLINE

So why all the doom and gloom then?

I think the biggest problem is high student loan debt.

 

[DrJeff]

The industry as a whole needs to get behind what Massachusetts did last November where via a statewide referdum that was on the general election ballot, they passed Medical Loss Ratio legislation which basically states for dentistry that insurance companies need to have atleast 80% of the dental insurance premiums going to direct patient care, not administrative expenses.

We're trying to lobby for something similar in my home state of CT, where many dental plans have 25-40%+ of their collected premiums going towards administrative fees, however we are facing stiff opposition and lots of lobbying $$ from the insurance industry against this. If something similar to Massachusetts were to pass, the wording for dentistry would be the same as it is for medicine as defined by the Affordable Care Act, as dentistry was exluded from that "you have to pass it to see what's in it" act.

And for the new dentists both currently in school as well as freshly out of school, it's fine to have an altruistic side, however you will quickly learn that when some legislator/lobbyists says that they are going to increase "access to care for the underserved" ulitmately you need to understand that 99.99% of the time it means that you as a provider are going to see your fees you are charging (often dictated in many situations by the insurance industry who is working in tandem with the government at some level to determine fees) either remain unchanged (as surrounding costs often go up) or even cut, and that lobby will certainly justify their reasoning (often underneath it all more profit for them) as you being that "rich dentist" who can afford it

 

[Thehighwind87]

The only thing that can prob reverse all this is a deep deep deep recession where people get laid off and hired at cheaper wages and supply costs also go down.

 

[charlestweed]

The only thing that can prob reverse all this is a deep deep deep recession where people get laid off and hired at cheaper wages and supply costs also go down.

According to this video (just skip the first 5 minutes of introduction), the staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead. You can produce more with less staff. There shouldn’t be any empty slot on the schedule and let the staff sit around doing nothing. If there is one, try to fill the dental chair by getting the patient to accept treatment. Don’t ignore low income patients who have poor credit. There are 3rd party companies that help them finance the tx. I don’t use any of these 3rd party companies. I have my own in-house financing. I keep the fees low and require low down payment. For ortho, it’s possible because the payments can be spread over 24 month period. Unlike my colleagues who target only the top 20% income earners, I target mostly low income patients because they are the majority of the population.

It's time for dentists to let go the overpaid hygienists and do their own cleaning.....and save $100k a year.

 

[Cold Front]

@wibago FWIW, I am a newer dentist, I graduated in 2021. I owe less than 200k in student loans and I make decent money working as an associate (I get paid somewhere between 30-35% of collections). I work 36 hours/wk, which is more than many of dental school classmates (most of them work 32 hrs/wk) but less than my software engineer friends (they can work 45-50 hrs when they have deadlines) and way less than my medical colleagues. I live in a large metro in the Midwest, quite saturated but there are plenty of DSO jobs that pay their associates 200k-250k. There is actually not much to complain about these DSO jobs, you go to work, clock in and once you clock out you don't have to worry about anything job-related. I don't know of any dentists in my area that struggle to find a job. Happy to share more if you have any questions.

The point I was making was, I graduated 2010. A lot of my colleagues were making 200-250k/yr as DSOs back then, 13 years ago. I’m pretty sure majority of dentists at DSO’s will make 200-250k 10 yrs from now. That’s a total of about 25 years. Every new generation of young dentists should be making higher than what dentists who worked at their position with a DSO made 5-10 years ago, let alone 25 years ago, and not the same amount. Because dental corporations are making more income every year from new breed of dentists by raising their fee schedules to offset inflation.

 

[Cold Front]

The industry as a whole needs to get behind what Massachusetts did last November where via a statewide referdum that was on the general election ballot, they passed Medical Loss Ratio legislation which basically states for dentistry that insurance companies need to have atleast 80% of the dental insurance premiums going to direct patient care, not administrative expenses.

We're trying to lobby for something similar in my home state of CT, where many dental plans have 25-40%+ of their collected premiums going towards administrative fees, however we are facing stiff opposition and lots of lobbying $$ from the insurance industry against this. If something similar to Massachusetts were to pass, the wording for dentistry would be the same as it is for medicine as defined by the Affordable Care Act, as dentistry was exluded from that "you have to pass it to see what's in it" act.

And for the new dentists both currently in school as well as freshly out of school, it's fine to have an altruistic side, however you will quickly learn that when some legislator/lobbyists says that they are going to increase "access to care for the underserved" ulitmately you need to understand that 99.99% of the time it means that you as a provider are going to see your fees you are charging (often dictated in many situations by the insurance industry who is working in tandem with the government at some level to determine fees) either remain unchanged (as surrounding costs often go up) or even cut, and that lobby will certainly justify their reasoning (often underneath it all more profit for them) as you being that "rich dentist" who can afford it

Very novel idea. I wonder how the referendum was started in MA, so other states can follow the same blueprint.

 

[charlestweed]

The point I was making was, I graduated 2010. A lot of my colleagues were making 200-250k/yr as DSOs back then, 13 years ago. I’m pretty sure majority of dentists at DSO’s will make 200-250k 10 yrs from now. That’s a total of about 25 years. Every new generation of young dentists should be making higher than what dentists who worked at their position with a DSO made 5-10 years ago, let alone 25 years ago, and not the same amount. Because dental corporations are making more income every year from new breed of dentists by raising their fee schedules to offset inflation.

I’ve been a very frequent member of this forum. The numbers that I heard back in 2010 were around $120-150k/year (or $600-650 a day). Now, it’s $200-250k a year. With their $200-250k incomes, dentists should have no problem paying back their $500k loan in 10 or less years. They should be in much better financial shape that most people with a BS/BA degree.

 

[Thehighwind87]

According to this video (just skip the first 5 minutes of introduction), the staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead. You can produce more with less staff. There shouldn’t be any empty slot on the schedule and let the staff sit around doing nothing. If there is one, try to fill the dental chair by getting the patient to accept treatment. Don’t ignore low income patients who have poor credit. There are 3rd party companies that help them finance the tx. I don’t use any of these 3rd party companies. I have my own in-house financing. I keep the fees low and require low down payment. For ortho, it’s possible because the payments can be spread over 24 month period. Unlike my colleagues who target only the top 20% income earners, I target mostly low income patients because they are the majority of the population.

It's time for dentists to let go the overpaid hygienists and do their own cleaning.....and save $100k a year.

Dude. I run extremely efficient practice but it doesn’t make financial sense to let go of a hygienist so the doctor does a 100$ cleaning while crowns and fills get backed up and patients can’t be seen on time because the dentist is doing a cleaning.

It also doesn’t make sense to let go of anyone in this current job market that has 10 million job openings and 3.4% unemployment. And good luck with the 15% staff salary this day and age.

I’m sorry but this post is just out of touch with reality. I get what you are saying I truely do, but I’m sorry I just can’t see it happening.

 

[charlestweed]

Dude. I run extremely efficient practice but it doesn’t make financial sense to let go of a hygienist so the doctor does a 100$ cleaning while crowns and fills get backed up and patients can’t be seen on time because the dentist is doing a cleaning.

It also doesn’t make sense to let go of anyone in this current job market that has 10 million job openings and 3.4% unemployment. And good luck with the 15% staff salary this day and age.

I’m sorry but this post is just out of touch with reality. I get what you are saying I truely do, but I’m sorry I just can’t see it happening.

You should consider yourself to be very lucky because you have too many patients that you don’t have any enough time to do productive procedures like crowns and implants. At least, your hygienists help make you more efficient. So even with higher salary that you have to pay them, it’s still a good passive income for you.

Many dentists here in CA don’t have enough patients. They have to accept medicaid and do their own cleaning to keep themselves busy.

 

[DrJeff]

Very novel idea. I wonder how the referendum was started in MA, so other states can follow the same blueprint.

As I understand it, the impetus behind the referendum was from combo of enough Mass Dental Society members being frustrated by what has happened to dental insurance reimbursements as well as dental insurance company profits and then the Mass State Dental Society having enough $$ to get behind the marketing campaign to get the word out to the public as well as enough Mass State Legislators to push this issue and the proper wording of the Mass State Constitution to allow for things like this to go to a state wide referendum (where the public is more likely to pass it) verses having it be done solely through the various state legislative bodies which are often more subject to being influenced (bribed in essenence at the end of the day often) by the big $$ lobby the insurance industry has.

For reference in CT, it's estimated that the marketing campaign that would be needed to get this done would be somewhere in the 5 to 7.5 million dollar range. My state dental association has an annual budget of around 2.5 million.... That's the challenge for sure

 

[Thehighwind87]

You should consider yourself to be very lucky because you have too many patients that you don’t have any enough time to do productive procedures like crowns and implants. At least, your hygienists help make you more efficient. So even with higher salary that you have to pay them, it’s still a good passive income for you.

Many dentists here in CA don’t have enough patients. They have to accept medicaid and do their own cleaning to keep themselves busy.

I guess you have a point. Regardless two banks going under, inversion of yield curve and all we need a little push into recession and hopefully costs will come down along with it. Aka deflation.

 

[G Miller]

I graduated in 2021 and did a really awesome, fast paced GRP. Came out and got my first job with a DSO. The DSO did NOT keep me busy enough, took every insurance under the sun with horrible reimbursement rates. Long story short I was not on track to clear 6 figures at that position.

 

[Intent]

Being a Dentist is a gift, you can easily earn 250k, you just have to have a reasonable work ethic, you dont even have to go on to specialize to attain this.....as your skill set grows you can make closer to 500!

what? You cannot easily earn 250k as a GP. Depends what state you're working in and what procedures you're doing. New grads aren't focusing on implants and veneers when they get out, and even then it's not easy to lock down some of those cases. He will work his ass off for $150-200k. Florida isn't a bad place to practice, they will pay you on 1099 and you will have no shortage of work. Different if you're practicing in let's say..Manhattan. The suburbs are busier than the big cities and tend to pay more, breaking into a dynasty office of 30 years and finding a good mentor requires relentlessness and luck, and you may find you don't even like the sort of breed that come to a FFS office. It's very difficult to find a comfortable associate position, there will usually be some give and take, my advice is in the beginning please don't be too picky, good experience can make up for a lack of pay and good pay can overcome monotonous work where you're not advancing clinically. Try to be get the most out of whatever office you're working in. There is a definite advantage financially to owning your own office, setting your own pace and fees and hiring your own staff. Organization is the name of the game, good luck out there it is not an easy field.

 

[Intent]

Have you worked mostly in saturated areas? I believe your thoughts and advice are true for very saturated areas, but more rural ish areas I don’t think this is true. I can’t say for sure since I’ve never worked there but I bet there are lots of rural ish areas in central Florida where $1000+ a day associateships should be pretty easy to find. I’m in the Midwest and was doing $200k+ by my second year as an associate (area of ~500k). I also had lots of benefits. About half of my friends who are still associates are in the $200k+ range (with lots of benefits). Some I wouldn’t even include as rural (again in areas of ~500K), but rural is a subjective term. None of my friends who are associates in saturated areas (ie LA and Denver) are above $200k and have worse benefits, but benefits nonetheless. OP—Look at job postings or even call around to dental recruiters and ask what’s a normal range for an associate dentist where you are planning on living. Compensation in dentistry is very geographically dependent.

LOL never had benefits, I've worked in NY, CT, CO, FL, CA, NJ, busiest cities in the country and from my experience large cities don't offer full time and certainly don't offer anyone benefits. The suburbs will keep you much busier and be fairer to a newer associate, the people will be more relaxed and you'll most likely hone your craft over there. I agree with you, the more rural areas will pay more and treat you more as a human being than some of the highly populated cities, it's very geographically dependent as you say.

 

[Thehighwind87]

LOL never had benefits, I've worked in NY, CT, CO, FL, CA, NJ, busiest cities in the country and from my experience large cities don't offer full time and certainly don't offer anyone benefits. The suburbs will keep you much busier and be fairer to a newer associate, the people will be more relaxed and you'll most likely hone your craft over there. I agree with you, the more rural areas will pay more and treat you more as a human being than some of the highly populated cities, it's very geographically dependent as you say.

I’ve never gotten benefits in majority of associateships except one.

The thing though is that benefits is such a loose term. There is the difference between good benefits and trash benefits.

As a dentist most likely we will get the trash end of the stick unless you work for some govt fqhc- but even that’s debatable.


Having stuff like “crappy” health insurance- while is good- is still bad. At the open market as a healthy young person- you are better off shopping for yourself. At the end of the day- even though an employer might cover 50-70% if your deductible is extremely high before insurance covers anything- you are paying out of pocket MORE then if you shopped and got something decent on the open market as a young healthy individual.

401k benefits are usually not extended to associates.

Never heard of paid time leave for maternity paternity in our profession.

PTO never got that either. If you working on production or collections- why would they offer you PTO.

A good benefit is holiday pay regardless if it’s sat or Sunday or Monday. A lot of offices put a clause in that states no holiday pay if it lands outside the work week.

So benefits? Yeah there’s a big difference between good and bad benefits. Gotta read the fine print.

Regardless, I’ve never heard of “good benefits” in our job. Nurses physicians firefighters etc all have the “good benefits”

 

[charlestweed]

No job is perfect. Every job has its pros and cons. The pros (like good work hours, high salary, ease of finding a job, job security etc) should make up for some of the cons (like high student loan debt, no benefit etc). Working as an associate should only be a short term goal to gain the experience and speed. Practice ownership should be the ultimate goal for all dentists. If you plan to work as an associate for the rest of your life, then dentistry may not be the right field for you.

 

[Intent]

Then why do more than 50% of the millennials move back home to live with their parents after college? (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). I don’t think dentistry is trending down faster than other professions. Last weekend, I met my MD anesthesiologist cousin again….and he complained to me about how the mid level practioners have slowly replaced the physicians.

It’s not easy for new grad teachers to get jobs at public schools because of job stability and good retirement package. Many teachers have to get lower paid jobs at private schools…they have to wait for a long time before they can find opened positions at public schools. It takes 17 years for a public school teacher to reach the $106k salary. I know some dentists who start enjoying their semi-retire life after much less than 17 years of practicing. ColdFront, you are one of these dentists. Jst21121 is another one….he’s only 35yo. I work 3 hrs a day when I am at my own office.

My CPA is at least 10 years older than me and he is still working hard. He used to work as a real estate agent on the side.

Lack of Job stability is the problem for many people who are in non-health professions. And when they get laid off, it's not easy for them to find another similar paid job.

It's all relative. New graduates walking out of school or residency around 2019-2023 are anywhere from $250-500k in debt, in major cities they are facing huge competition and revolving door private practices who are forever hiring associates because the owners failed to retain due to lowball pay and long working hours or shoddy conditions due to poorly trained staff and lack of planning and organization. Also in big cities you can come and go like the wind because there are many offices. If you are a single person and don't have kids or a lavish lifestyle you shouldn't have to work more than 15 years in dentistry, and then you can work because well why not, but you're not forced to wake up at 65 years old and go do a bridge, I wouldn't want to live if that were the case, unless you're really into doing it or have some celebrity in or whatever. But I think $150-250k is an accurate rang for an associate, and $250K doesn't come easy that's 5 days solid and long 9-10 hour days. Nothing in dentistry seems like a cosy 9-5pm, some offices want these morning huddles which are infuriating because they go over the whole day and then the operator won't be set up properly to do a filling...so it's always extra or wasted time at the associates expense. I would urge anyone starting out to seriously consider your geographic limitations, big cities are extremely costly and don't necessarily pay better. I made way more money working in Florida than I did in Manhattan, and didn't have to fight to get paid and was compensated on time. The suburbs are much more relaxed and civilized in terms of paying fairly and also having better quality patients. It would be worth considering moving to a more rural area you can tolerate to live in with low costs and some form of entertainment/fulfillment you can sustain for a few years to save as much money as you can and either buy out an owner if possible or open your own office. Having the right attitude and a plan from the day you walk out of school is so important, especially since professors in school can fill your brain with mindless notions of easy money. It is not an easy career, the work is taxing and it requires a great deal of luck. I don't understand how kids are going to pay probably $1 million for tuition in 10 ten years to become a dentist and think they'll ever escape. There are dentists everywhere, too many of them and there are hundreds of them graduating every year. My friends who bought practices in up and coming cities are doing quite well, if you can I'd consider moving to a new hotspot with less competition. Good luck everyone

 

[Intent]

According to this video (just skip the first 5 minutes of introduction), the staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead. You can produce more with less staff. There shouldn’t be any empty slot on the schedule and let the staff sit around doing nothing. If there is one, try to fill the dental chair by getting the patient to accept treatment. Don’t ignore low income patients who have poor credit. There are 3rd party companies that help them finance the tx. I don’t use any of these 3rd party companies. I have my own in-house financing. I keep the fees low and require low down payment. For ortho, it’s possible because the payments can be spread over 24 month period. Unlike my colleagues who target only the top 20% income earners, I target mostly low income patients because they are the majority of the population.

It's time for dentists to let go the overpaid hygienists and do their own cleaning.....and save $100k a year.

Hygiene is the hardest on the back and neck, and while I've done hundreds of cleanings I've found some patients simply don't want a dentist doing their cleaning. But I definitely see the appeal of not paying the hygienist, however a lot of patients love their cleanings and their hygienists, they are the backbone of the practice (at least for GP).

 

[Intent]

I graduated in 2021 and did a really awesome, fast paced GRP. Came out and got my first job with a DSO. The DSO did NOT keep me busy enough, took every insurance under the sun with horrible reimbursement rates. Long story short I was not on track to clear 6 figures at that position.

And where are you now? Looking for a new position? Considering a different city? Private practice? As much as we think a busy GPR prepares us, it can't compare to having 3 hygiene columns and two of your own columns in a busy insurance based practice. What state are you practicing in if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Intent]

Dude. I run extremely efficient practice but it doesn’t make financial sense to let go of a hygienist so the doctor does a 100$ cleaning while crowns and fills get backed up and patients can’t be seen on time because the dentist is doing a cleaning.

It also doesn’t make sense to let go of anyone in this current job market that has 10 million job openings and 3.4% unemployment. And good luck with the 15% staff salary this day and age.

I’m sorry but this post is just out of touch with reality. I get what you are saying I truely do, but I’m sorry I just can’t see it happening.

Spot on, it takes me an hour and a half to get a patient numb, crown prep/temp/pack double cord/scan a molar. Waste of time to spend it cleaning a patient. Or the money you could make doing a Molar Endo going towards a cleaning, no thanks. and 15%....you're not keeping any employees around. Hygiene is getting paid $50-65 an hour where I live.

 

[Intent]

I’ve been a very frequent member of this forum. The numbers that I heard back in 2010 were around $120-150k/year (or $600-650 a day). Now, it’s $200-250k a year. With their $200-250k incomes, dentists should have no problem paying back their $500k loan in 10 or less years. They should be in much better financial shape that most people with a BS/BA degree.

10 years later and it is still anywhere from $500-650 a day normal base salary, that's the problem. Nothing costs the same as it did 10 years ago but they are still paying dentists the same measly daily pay. And guess what, it was the same thing in 2000, $500-650 a day. It's now 2023, and the reality is the average pay is $150,000 for a dentist working 5 days a week in a major city, maybe $175,000 - $200,000 but less likely. Or they hire you at some corporate spot and they try to give you benefits and a severely reduced salary.

 

[Intent]

Im not that far out from graduation and I was able to pay my loans off in ~3.5 years. I make ~300k as an associate at 5 days per week. I enjoy my job. Some of my friends have bought practices, or started practices, and seem to be doing well too. The most unhappy people I know in dentistry are the ones that end up not liking it, or those who would prefer to not work while their kids are young, but cannot due to debt.

Dentistry has beaten inflation for 40 years before the pandemic. However, people are concerned because inflation has increased rapidly, beyond dental services. Dental service pricing has a longer feed back loop than other industries because of insurance agreements. Where I work we are renegotiating fees to increase reimbursement, which will mitigate the issue.

You are over 4 years out from graduation so you're not that new, newish but you can manage a lot by yourself. But where are you practicing that you are making $300,000 as an associate. Coastal city or midwest?

 

[Thehighwind87]

10 years later and it is still anywhere from $500-650 a day normal base salary, that's the problem. Nothing costs the same as it did 10 years ago but they are still paying dentists the same measly daily pay. And guess what, it was the same thing in 2000, $500-650 a day. It's now 2023, and the reality is the average pay is $150,000 for a dentist working 5 days a week in a major city, maybe $175,000 - $200,000 but less likely. Or they hire you at some corporate spot and they try to give you benefits and a severely reduced salary.

Yup in 2010 when I graduated it was 500-600 a day. Hygienists were getting around 40-45. Today Hygienists in my area getting paid 60-70 an hour while dentists are getting paid the same amount as 2010/production collection wise.

Hygienists getting paid as much as a new grad. Literally. And since associate dentists usually get no benefits like pto and healthcare and 401k, which hygienists and ft staff get- dentists are really getting short end of the stick

Things just don’t look like it’s gonna get better. Ironically I feel like if a new grad dentist were to apply as a hygienist position rather then a dentist- they would actually have a lighter load/schedule and make more money.

 

[charlestweed]

Spot on, it takes me an hour and a half to get a patient numb, crown prep/temp/pack double cord/scan a molar. Waste of time to spend it cleaning a patient. Or the money you could make doing a Molar Endo going towards a cleaning, no thanks. and 15%....you're not keeping any employees around. Hygiene is getting paid $50-65 an hour where I live.

If every single work day of yours is solidly filled with these highly productive procedures (a crown prep every 90 minutes...and you don't have time to do cleanings), your production should be in $10k per day (or $2-3 million per year) range. With such high gross income, you can easily afford to pay your hygienist $50-65 an hour….and it doesn’t make any sense to waste your time on doing your own cleaning. And even when your staff salaries are at 20-30%, you still make a lot of money….you shouldn’t complain about the field. Many new dental grads wish they can be in your position.

When I said 15% staff salary, I talked about the slow offices (like my sister’s office) in saturated areas that only have 1-2 crowns (zero crown on some days) a day…..that produce less than $2000 a day. My sister has to accept medicaid in order to fill her appt book. She does her own cleanings to keep herself busy. She only uses 2 chairs (the other 4 chairs are for me to use….I do in-house ortho at her office). She has 1 front receptionist/office manager and 1 assistant in the back….and she manages to keep her staff salaries well below 15%. Her total overhead is under 40% because she doesn’t have to pay rent. She owns (and fully paid off) the office building.

 

[charlestweed]

Yup in 2010 when I graduated it was 500-600 a day. Hygienists were getting around 40-45. Today Hygienists in my area getting paid 60-70 an hour while dentists are getting paid the same amount as 2010/production collection wise.

Hygienists getting paid as much as a new grad. Literally. And since associate dentists usually get no benefits like pto and healthcare and 401k, which hygienists and ft staff get- dentists are really getting short end of the stick

If you plan to work as associate for the rest of your life, then your salary will be capped at certain level.....then you will be just like a pharmacist or an optometrist who works at CVS and Costco. The benefit of being a dentist is you can open your own practice. If practice ownership is not something you want, then don't pursue denntistry.

Things just don’t look like it’s gonna get better. Ironically I feel like if a new grad dentist were to apply as a hygienist position rather then a dentist- they would actually have a lighter load/schedule and make more money.

If they work as a hygienist, they won't learn anything and remain slow and unproductive for the rest of their practicing career.......they can never start their own office.

 

[yappy]

You are over 4 years out from graduation so you're not that new, newish but you can manage a lot by yourself. But where are you practicing that you are making $300,000 as an associate. Coastal city or midwest?

Medium sized city in a coastal state. I work 5 days per week. I don’t do anything crazy.

 

[Thehighwind87]

If you plan to work as associate for the rest of your life, then your salary will be capped at certain level.....then you will be just like a pharmacist or an optometrist who works at CVS and Costco. The benefit of being a dentist is you can open your own practice. If practice ownership is not something you want, then don't pursue denntistry.

If they work as a hygienist, they won't learn anything and remain slow and unproductive for the rest of their practicing career.......they can never start their own office.

Of course I 100% agree with you. I think the bottom line we can Both agree upon is that the bottom line is getting smaller and getting squeezed and the opportunities that you and I had are no longer there and or limited.

Your sisters office is a great example. Buying an office property nowadays is just unattainable with the costs of everything nowadays along with the stagnant wages of a dentist. Unless you really wanna go and buy some office space for 1-2 million + along with the practice of 1 million and some change along with loans and mortgage… you looking at easy 3 mil+ of debt. That’s incredibly stressful. Just looking at my neighborhood going from pre Covid 700k to 1.4 million- I can just imagine what commercial property is… and it’s probably a lot.
But the world is trending that way regardless with housing and job opportunities.

 

[charlestweed]

Of course I 100% agree with you. I think the bottom line we can Both agree upon is that the bottom line is getting smaller and getting squeezed and the opportunities that you and I had are no longer there and or limited.

Your sisters office is a great example. Buying an office property nowadays is just unattainable with the costs of everything nowadays along with the stagnant wages of a dentist. Unless you really wanna go and buy some office space for 1-2 million + along with the practice of 1 million and some change along with loans and mortgage… you looking at easy 3 mil+ of debt. That’s incredibly stressful. Just looking at my neighborhood going from pre Covid 700k to 1.4 million- I can just imagine what commercial property is… and it’s probably a lot.
But the world is trending that way regardless with housing and job opportunities.

I don’t deny the fact that new grad dentists have much harder time than us, older grads, had. But my point was high home prices (due to inflation and supply and demand) hurt everyone, and not just the dentists. That’s why you see a significant increase in number of college graduates, who have to move back to live with their parents in recent years. According to this article, homeownership among the boomers is at 78%, which is nearly twice as high as the millennials, only at 41%. These are the top 2 reasons more millennials can’t buy homes

Dentists actually have much higher chance of owning a home than a lot of people. For others, getting a second job to supplement the main income usually means getting a much lower paid job....like driving for Uber/Lyft, selling stuff on Ebay etc. For dentists, a 2nd job is usually another highly paid dental job that pays the same (daily rate) as the main job.

 

[AONLINE]

It's all relative. New graduates walking out of school or residency around 2019-2023 are anywhere from $250-500k in debt, in major cities they are facing huge competition and revolving door private practices who are forever hiring associates because the owners failed to retain due to lowball pay and long working hours or shoddy conditions due to poorly trained staff and lack of planning and organization. Also in big cities you can come and go like the wind because there are many offices. If you are a single person and don't have kids or a lavish lifestyle you shouldn't have to work more than 15 years in dentistry, and then you can work because well why not, but you're not forced to wake up at 65 years old and go do a bridge, I wouldn't want to live if that were the case, unless you're really into doing it or have some celebrity in or whatever. But I think $150-250k is an accurate rang for an associate, and $250K doesn't come easy that's 5 days solid and long 9-10 hour days. Nothing in dentistry seems like a cosy 9-5pm, some offices want these morning huddles which are infuriating because they go over the whole day and then the operator won't be set up properly to do a filling...so it's always extra or wasted time at the associates expense. I would urge anyone starting out to seriously consider your geographic limitations, big cities are extremely costly and don't necessarily pay better. I made way more money working in Florida than I did in Manhattan, and didn't have to fight to get paid and was compensated on time. The suburbs are much more relaxed and civilized in terms of paying fairly and also having better quality patients. It would be worth considering moving to a more rural area you can tolerate to live in with low costs and some form of entertainment/fulfillment you can sustain for a few years to save as much money as you can and either buy out an owner if possible or open your own office. Having the right attitude and a plan from the day you walk out of school is so important, especially since professors in school can fill your brain with mindless notions of easy money. It is not an easy career, the work is taxing and it requires a great deal of luck. I don't understand how kids are going to pay probably $1 million for tuition in 10 ten years to become a dentist and think they'll ever escape. There are dentists everywhere, too many of them and there are hundreds of them graduating every year. My friends who bought practices in up and coming cities are doing quite well, if you can I'd consider moving to a new hotspot with less competition. Good luck everyone

Where are you in Florida?

 

[Thehighwind87]

I don’t deny the fact that new grad dentists have much harder time than us, older grads, had. But my point was high home prices (due to inflation and supply and demand) hurt everyone, and not just the dentists. That’s why you see a significant increase in number of college graduates, who have to move back to live with their parents in recent years. According to this article, homeownership among the boomers is at 78%, which is nearly twice as high as the millennials, only at 41%. These are the top 2 reasons more millennials can’t buy homes

Dentists actually have much higher chance of owning a home than a lot of people. For others, getting a second job to supplement the main income usually means getting a much lower paid job....like driving for Uber/Lyft, selling stuff on Ebay etc. For dentists, a 2nd job is usually another highly paid dental job that pays the same (daily rate) as the main job.

The only thing is that dental income doesn't keep up with inflation. That's the bottom line. You either take on another day, or open longer hours.

Other jobs do. Unless you go OON/FFS. Good luck keeping up with inflation.

An engineer, software developer, pilot, nurse, physician, lawyer, grocery store worker can job hop for a higher wage- as a business owner dentist- nope. The argument that you can add an additional day to offset losses still doesn't make up for the fact that it doesn't keep up with inflation. The argument that we don't have to drive uber/lyft, sell stuff on ebay doesn't hold water either...I mean come on we got professional degrees. I mean good lord help the dentist that is driving uber/lyft and ebaying stuff to make ends meet which to be honest- I wouldn't be suprised to hear that's the norm in 10 years for new grads. You have to compare like with like professions. Dentist to physician. Dentist to major airline pilot. Dentist to Software Engineer. If you want to compare dentist to grocery store clerk- then yes of course we shouldn't complain- but at the same time- they didn't go to school for 8 years and take out 400-500k of debt.

That's really the crux of the argument. In addition, associates have it just as bad as they work on production/collection on set fees unless the office they work at is OON/FFS.

Of course, I'm glad to have a job, have a house, and have a practice. But just keeping it real, gotta look forward toward the future. Higher rent, higher overhead, higher expenses, and well same income coupled with real world inflation. It's gonna be tougher moving forward. You have to evaluate what in your practice makes sense: cable tv- doesn't, fish tank- doesn't, even the questionable goodie bags like toothbrush and paste (thats 250$ a month) doesn't make sense, the weekly starbucks coffee run for the office- doesn't, the christmas party- maybe at a not so fancy place. The list goes on. And eventually- eventually- it might not even make sense to run a practice anymore. Rent when I started was 4500, by the end of my lease term it will be flirting with 6500-7000 on renewal- and I just dunno if it makes sense to renew.

That's really the bottom line, and why it's harder to get positive about the future of dentistry.

 

[charlestweed]

The only thing is that dental income doesn't keep up with inflation. That's the bottom line. You either take on another day, or open longer hours.
Other jobs do. Unless you go OON/FFS. Good luck keeping up with inflation.

Other jobs can’t keep up with the inflation either. That’s why home affordability has dropped sharply in recent years. The rents increase. Food and gas prices increase. Everything costs more now. A lot of people are hurting right now…. despite the low unemployment rate.

U.S. Home Affordability Drops to Lowest Level in 10 Years

ATTOM releases its Q3 2018 U.S. Home Affordability Report, which shows that home prices were at the least affordable level since Q3 2008.

www.attomdata.com

.An engineer, software developer, pilot, nurse, physician, lawyer, grocery store worker can job hop for a higher wage

When these people hop jobs for a higher wage, it means that they may have to face longer commute time….or move the whole family to another state (disrupting their kids’ schooling/friendship)….or face bigger responsibility at the new jobs. In other words, they have to put in extra effort in order to get paid more. It’s the same for dentistry, if you put in extra effort and work harder, you will make more. Nothing in life is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs.

- as a business owner dentist- nope.

Yes, it’s possible for owner dentists. An owner can increase his incomes by:

- Cutting the hours or eliminating the hygienist if there are too many empty slots in the book…and the hygienist and assistants are sitting around doing nothing . Without the hygienist, the owner dentist becomes less efficient and has to work harder (more days) but the $$$ he saves for not hiring the hygienist goes straight to his pocket. If your practice is too busy and can’t operate smoothly without the hygienist, then you shouldn’t complain about paying the hygienist. Isn’t being busy a good thing?

-Booking as many patients in one day as possible and working less days per week. Then use the extra days in the week to work for someone else (corp or another private office) to increase your income. That’s what my sister did. When she first started her office, she worked 3 days at her own office and 4 days a week for the corp. I currently do both also....10 days/month for myself and 7 days/month for corp office. Many of the associate general dentists who work at the same corp with me also have their own offices.

The argument that you can add an additional day to offset losses still doesn't make up for the fact that it doesn't keep up with inflation.

Yes, it does keep up with the inflation if you work more days. For every workday per week that you add, you can easily increase your income by $50k/year (if you are a general dentist), by $100+k/year (if you are an ortho). That’s how my sister and I are able to make more than our colleagues…..despite being in an oversaturated market. That’s how she could buy her own office building and paid it off a few years later.

If you want to compare dentist to grocery store clerk- then yes of course we shouldn't complain- but at the same time- they didn't go to school for 8 years and take out 400-500k of debt.

I don’t see trading 11 years of my life (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs DDS, 1yr GPR, 2 yrs ortho) for a stable highly paid job a huge sacrifice. Life in college and dental school wasn’t too bad for me.….it’s better than for the kids (at my age), who chose not to go to school and had to work minimum wage jobs (because of lack of college education and skills). If I was in my 20s and had to choose between studying and working a minimum wage job, I'd choose studying and hanging out with friends. I worked as a busboy in HS and college and it wasn’t fun.

That's really the crux of the argument. In addition, associates have it just as bad as they work on production/collection on set fees unless the office they work at is OON/FFS.

Just like other jobs, the associate dentists can increase their incomes by changing jobs and increasing the efficiency (from the experience that they gain). Being good and fast helps a lot.

Of course, I'm glad to have a job, have a house, and have a practice. But just keeping it real, gotta look forward toward the future. Higher rent, higher overhead, higher expenses, and well same income coupled with real world inflation. It's gonna be tougher moving forward.

When you pay off debts, your greatest asset is your income...... Inflation and recession don't matter much anymore.

You have to evaluate what in your practice makes sense: cable tv- doesn't, fish tank- doesn't, even the questionable goodie bags like toothbrush and paste (thats 250$ a month) doesn't make sense, the weekly starbucks coffee run for the office- doesn't, the christmas party- maybe at a not so fancy place. The list goes on.

It's about time to cut those unnecessary expenses. My office still uses paper charts and it runs just as efficient as the offices that spent 3-4 times more in overhead. The patients don't really care what toys you have in your office. They only care about the results and prices.

That's really the bottom line, and why it's harder to get positive about the future of dentistry.

Despite the decline of dentistry, there are still a lot of people who quit their jobs to go back to school to pursue dentistry. I recently met a newly grad dentist, who earned his DDS at 47. He went to an ivy school and had tried several jobs (owning a restaurant, working in banking, in real estates etc). The ortho who bought an office from me (it's a leasehold sale because I moved my office) was a pilot before he went back to school for dentistry/ortho.

Nothing beats being your own boss