Is being a dentist really that bad?

[Thehighwind87]

Other jobs can’t keep up with the inflation either. That’s why home affordability has dropped sharply in recent years. The rents increase. Food and gas prices increase. Everything costs more now. A lot of people are hurting right now…. despite the low unemployment rate.

U.S. Home Affordability Drops to Lowest Level in 10 Years

ATTOM releases its Q3 2018 U.S. Home Affordability Report, which shows that home prices were at the least affordable level since Q3 2008.

www.attomdata.com

When these people hop jobs for a higher wage, it means that they may have to face longer commute time….or move the whole family to another state (disrupting their kids’ schooling/friendship)….or face bigger responsibility at the new jobs. In other words, they have to put in extra effort in order to get paid more. It’s the same for dentistry, if you put in extra effort and work harder, you will make more. Nothing in life is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs.

Yes, it’s possible for owner dentists. An owner can increase his incomes by:

- Cutting the hours or eliminating the hygienist if there are too many empty slots in the book…and the hygienist and assistants are sitting around doing nothing . Without the hygienist, the owner dentist becomes less efficient and has to work harder (more days) but the $$$ he saves for not hiring the hygienist goes straight to his pocket. If your practice is too busy and can’t operate smoothly without the hygienist, then you shouldn’t complain about paying the hygienist. Isn’t being busy a good thing?

-Booking as many patients in one day as possible and working less days per week. Then use the extra days in the week to work for someone else (corp or another private office) to increase your income. That’s what my sister did. When she first started her office, she worked 3 days at her own office and 4 days a week for the corp. I currently do both also....10 days/month for myself and 7 days/month for corp office. Many of the associate general dentists who work at the same corp with me also have their own offices.

Yes, it does keep up with the inflation if you work more days. For every workday per week that you add, you can easily increase your income by $50k/year (if you are a general dentist), by $100+k/year (if you are an ortho). That’s how my sister and I are able to make more than our colleagues…..despite being in an oversaturated market. That’s how she could buy her own office building and paid it off a few years later.


I don’t see trading 11 years of my life (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs DDS, 1yr GPR, 2 yrs ortho) for a stable highly paid job a huge sacrifice. Life in college and dental school wasn’t too bad for me.….it’s better than for the kids (at my age), who chose not to go to school and had to work minimum wage jobs (because of lack of college education and skills). If I was in my 20s and had to choose between studying and working a minimum wage job, I'd choose studying and hanging out with friends. I worked as a busboy in HS and college and it wasn’t fun.

Just like other jobs, the associate dentists can increase their incomes by changing jobs and increasing the efficiency (from the experience that they gain). Being good and fast helps a lot.

When you pay off debts, your greatest asset is your income...... Inflation and recession don't matter much anymore.


It's about time to cut those unnecessary expenses. My office still uses paper charts and it runs just as efficient as the offices that spent 3-4 times more in overhead. The patients don't really care what toys you have in your office. They only care about the results and prices.


Despite the decline of dentistry, there are still a lot of people who quit their jobs to go back to school to pursue dentistry. I recently met a newly grad dentist, who earned his DDS at 47. He went to an ivy school and had tried several jobs (owning a restaurant, working in banking, in real estates etc). The ortho who bought an office from me (it's a leasehold sale because I moved my office) was a pilot before he went back to school for dentistry/ortho.

Nothing beats being your own boss

I'm glad you have an optimistic view on this. I could use some of that. Hard to stomach taking a 10-20% paycut since covid due to inflation. At the end of the day though, I'm still convinced we still see inflation higher for longer- while incomes drop. And when the lease renewal comes up- for me that is- I will probably have to really evaluate whether it's worth ownership. Either that or move to a cheaper location.

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[Splenda88]

5% of individuals in the US make 200k+. You are exceptional if you are part of that 5%.

Just a lame comparison. Imagine that you were among the top 5% of d school class

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

But for me, the economy is in a masked collapse.

Big Hoss

 

[Thehighwind87]

5% of individuals in the US make 200k+. You are exceptional if you are part of that 5%.

Just a lame comparison. Imagine that you were among the top 5% of d school class

It's all relative. Taking on 2 mil of debt and being exceptional? or is it not?

 

[Splenda88]

It's all relative. Taking on 2 mil of debt and being exceptional? or is it not?

Pay your student loan in 4-5 years. You will be making 250k+ in your early 30s with no debt.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Pay your student loan in 4-5 years. You will be making 250k+ in your early 30s with no debt.

Thanks for the sound advice.

 

[charlestweed]

I'm glad you have an optimistic view on this. I could use some of that. Hard to stomach taking a 10-20% paycut since covid due to inflation. At the end of the day though, I'm still convinced we still see inflation higher for longer- while incomes drop. And when the lease renewal comes up- for me that is- I will probably have to really evaluate whether it's worth ownership. Either that or move to a cheaper location.

Having practiced for 20 years, I am fully aware of the decline of the dental field. I don’t disagree with you on this part. My cousin, who is a physician, has complained a lot about medicine as well (mid-level providers, long work hours, doctor’s salaries stay the same etc). But guess what? His daughter, my niece, recently got accepted to UCLA and she will be a premed this Fall…she wants to follow her dad's footsteps. My cousin and I still want our kids to pursue a career in healthcare because there are not a lot of better alternative career options out there. Amazon will cut additional 9000 jobs this coming week, after laying off 18,000 in January. Other tech companies will also announce more layoffs in the near future. That's not a good sign.

At least none of our kids will have any student loan debt like what we had (although we did not owe a lot). And whatever we have now will become theirs when we are gone.

Yup, the high inflation rate continues to hurt us and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. That’s why I continue to work to save for my retirement. I want to be able to spend (and give) the same way that I do now after I retire. Working is the only part that I can control.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Having practiced for 20 years, I am fully aware of the decline of the dental field. I don’t disagree with you on this part. My cousin, who is a physician, has complained a lot about medicine as well (mid-level providers, long work hours, doctor’s salaries stay the same etc). But guess what? His daughter, my niece, recently got accepted to UCLA and she will be a premed this Fall…she wants to follow her dad's footsteps. My cousin and I still want our kids to pursue a career in healthcare because there are not a lot of better alternative career options out there. Amazon will cut additional 9000 jobs this coming week, after laying off 18,000 in January. Other tech companies will also announce more layoffs in the near future. That's not a good sign.

At least none of our kids will have any student loan debt like what we had (although we did not owe a lot). And whatever we have now will become theirs when we are gone.

Yup, the high inflation rate continues to hurt us and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. That’s why I continue to work to save for my retirement. I want to be able to spend (and give) the same way that I do now after I retire. Working is the only part that I can control.

I do agree with the overall picture. I don't see amazon's laying off people to be even worthwhile mentioning. 2019: 800k workers, 2020: 1.3 million, 2021: 1,600,000. 2022: 1,541,000. They overhired simple as that.

18k, and 9k is like a drop in the bucket. It's not even a rounding error. It would be like your dental office going from 10 workers to 100 workers- and then laying off 2 people.

Now if they were to layoff 300-500k, then we can talk about the greatness of our field having job security.

But yeah, regardless, for me, I don't think kids follow in my footsteps. I will be pushing them towards trade schools- and if they are inclined to a profession with high debt load- to seek out scholarships, community colleges + 2 year normal college, etc.

 

[charlestweed]

I do agree with the overall picture. I don't see amazon's laying off people to be even worthwhile mentioning. 2019: 800k workers, 2020: 1.3 million, 2021: 1,600,000. 2022: 1,541,000. They overhired simple as that.

18k, and 9k is like a drop in the bucket. It's not even a rounding error. It would be like your dental office going from 10 workers to 100 workers- and then laying off 2 people.

Now if they were to layoff 300-500k, then we can talk about the greatness of our field having job security.

The problem is there are 5000+ colleges that will continue to pump out more new grads every year. And these hungry new grads with high student loan debts will do whatever it takes to compete against the older grads for jobs. They have more time and more energy. The older grads will not be able to compete because they are older, have family/kids, and have less time to learn new skills.

But yeah, regardless, for me, I don't think kids follow in my footsteps. I will be pushing them towards trade schools- and if they are inclined to a profession with high debt load- to seek out scholarships, community colleges + 2 year normal college, etc.

Trade schools are not a bad option if you don’t mind your kids having a less “respectable” career than what you have. I know, I know….nobody will respect you if you have a lot of debt and don’t make enough to pay it back....even if you are a doctor or dentist.

I always want my kids to be better than me. That’s why I work hard to make sure they don’t have to take out any loan for their education. Having a prestigious career also helps one find a more “ideal” person (same religious belief, same work ethic, similar goals etc) to marry to. I don’t think my wife would marry me if I didn’t have a similar degree like hers. Being a nice person is not enough. But that's another topic of discussion.

 

[ebessie]

https://bloggerdds.weebly.com/blog/dentistry-sucks

This post makes it seem like being a dentist is horrible. The the points that scare me the most are the financials. Do you really only make $100,000?

I don’t particularly plan to open a practice, and I will be going to a dental school that is going to cost me roughly $220,000 - $250,000 in loans total. I plan to practice in Florida.

What do you guys think of the bloggers opinions in the linked post? Do associate dentists really only make $100-$120K? Is the career worth it with my specific situation described above?

Sadly this morning, I also happened to see that dentists are now ranked #47 in the top 100 jobs according to the U.S. News and Reports. While this isn’t bad, it’s particularly concerning when it was #2 just two years ago. It also says there’s a 5% unemployment rate for dentists.

This article is absurd.

1. First off it doesn't take into consideration help with funding schooling. Things like Grants, scholarships, and repayment programs.
- Scholarships, Grants, and Repayment programs Available To Dental Students
2. Even if you had $200,000 worth of schooling debt, in just 10 years with a good financial system in place your debt will be paid off.
- Student Loan Planner
3. In a survey of Dentists 60% received pay increases in the last five years. Despite the pandemic, 38% reported receiving a pay increase within the last two years. 58% of the responding dentists reported being “satisfied” to “very satisfied” with their income.
- Annual Dental Salary Survey
4. It doesn't even mention the other forms of compensation dentists can receive such as bonuses and profit-sharing.
- How Much Does a Dentist Make

Obviously, I am just a student so I don't know everything. However, using the internet I was able to grab all the above points in articles regarding the topic. I am very open to discussion with someone who is already been in the fields for a few years if any of them are around on this forum still.

 

[DDS9994]

This article is absurd.

1. First off it doesn't take into consideration help with funding schooling. Things like Grants, scholarships, and repayment programs.
- Scholarships, Grants, and Repayment programs Available To Dental Students
2. Even if you had $200,000 worth of schooling debt, in just 10 years with a good financial system in place your debt will be paid off.
- Student Loan Planner
3. In a survey of Dentists 60% received pay increases in the last five years. Despite the pandemic, 38% reported receiving a pay increase within the last two years. 58% of the responding dentists reported being “satisfied” to “very satisfied” with their income.
- Annual Dental Salary Survey
4. It doesn't even mention the other forms of compensation dentists can receive such as bonuses and profit-sharing.
- How Much Does a Dentist Make

Obviously, I am just a student so I don't know everything. However, using the internet I was able to grab all the above points in articles regarding the topic. I am very open to discussion with someone who is already been in the fields for a few years if any of them are around on this forum still.

I agree that article was garbage the way it was written. It was written in 2014 so alot has changed, I think 200K would be a steal for a dental education these days. I think the avg has gone up alot since, then seems more like 350 and up. There are alot more challenges for the new grad, so it wont be easier for you guys, its gonna be much harder actually, but there is money to be made, but your game has to be tight, and I mean real tight. There has never been a more pressing time for dentists to understand the biz side of practice and understanding a P/L statement. Guys like me had it easy graduating in the early 2000s, so take what we say in context.

 

[ebessie]

I agree that article was garbage the way it was written. It was written in 2014 so alot has changed, I think 200K would be a steal for a dental education these days. I think the avg has gone up alot since, then seems more like 350 and up. There are alot more challenges for the new grad, so it wont be easier for you guys, its gonna be much harder actually, but there is money to be made, but your game has to be tight, and I mean real tight. There has never been a more pressing time for dentists to understand the biz side of practice and understanding a P/L statement. Guys like me had it easy graduating in the early 2000s, so take what we say in context.

What I wouldn't give to have graduated in the early 2000s but I was still in grade school.

 

[Thehighwind87]

This article is absurd.

1. First off it doesn't take into consideration help with funding schooling. Things like Grants, scholarships, and repayment programs.
- Scholarships, Grants, and Repayment programs Available To Dental Students
2. Even if you had $200,000 worth of schooling debt, in just 10 years with a good financial system in place your debt will be paid off.
- Student Loan Planner
3. In a survey of Dentists 60% received pay increases in the last five years. Despite the pandemic, 38% reported receiving a pay increase within the last two years. 58% of the responding dentists reported being “satisfied” to “very satisfied” with their income.
- Annual Dental Salary Survey
4. It doesn't even mention the other forms of compensation dentists can receive such as bonuses and profit-sharing.
- How Much Does a Dentist Make

Obviously, I am just a student so I don't know everything. However, using the internet I was able to grab all the above points in articles regarding the topic. I am very open to discussion with someone who is already been in the fields for a few years if any of them are around on this forum still.

Get ready to work harder then your predecessors. That's basically the jist of it. Being a dentist in 2000 was easier then 2010. Being a dentist in 2010 was easier then 2020. And so-on.

The field is overall becoming harder and the inflation has affected everyone's wages- but doubly so for dentists. So you work harder for less. But at the end of the day, you get 4 day work weeks after you purchase a practice and after you pay off your loans, you will be cruising along in life. But that takes a good amount of time 10+ years.

That's about it.

 

[DDS9994]

What I wouldn't give to have graduated in the early 2000s but I was still in grade school.

You have no idea, imagine a world where I came out with 150K debt at 2.5% interest locked. When guys my age or generation tell you its "easy, I did it." Feel free to tell them they are full of ****. It aint easy at all for you guys now, but you signed up for it and are on the hook for it, so like I said get your mind right and your game tight, your room for error is small now, but I assure you if you get the into ownership early, sacrifice some years and tackle debt and save, on the other side is some really good money, not hedge fund money but good money. If you were asking if you should go to DS we would have a different conversation, but since most here are already in school thats water under the bridge now.

 

[DDS9994]

Get ready to work harder then your predecessors. That's basically the jist of it. Being a dentist in 2000 was easier then 2010. Being a dentist in 2010 was easier then 2020. And so-on.

The field is overall becoming harder and the inflation has affected everyone's wages- but doubly so for dentists. So you work harder for less. But at the end of the day, you get 4 day work weeks after you purchase a practice and after you pay off your loans, you will be cruising along in life. But that takes a good amount of time 10+ years.

That's about it.

Yep, when I say I work 4 days a week, people say must be nice, I tell them " you know what wasnt nice? Working 6 days a week , 3 at my startup and 3 at an associateship, and forgoing nice vacations, and having to payback a 487K buildout and school loans and a mortgage."

 

[Thehighwind87]

Yep, when I say I work 4 days a week, people say must be nice, I tell them " you know what wasnt nice? Working 6 days a week , 3 at my startup and 3 at an associateship, and forgoing nice vacations, and having to payback a 487K buildout and school loans and a mortgage."

don't worry you will still get the occasional patient saying "must be nice being rich" and "man that costs so much" even though your fees haven't changed since 2012 or some crazy number of years while your rent, utitilies, wages, overhead have all increased 10-20% (and that's just in the past 2 years post covid).

 

[allantois]

How’s dentistry recession proof? Dental insurance doesn’t cover squat, and patients can’t self-pay when unemployed. Sure, people will always pay to have a tooth pulled after letting it go neglected

 

[PikminOC]

People in medicine and dentistry don't realize how good they have it financially.

Just think for a second about the average guy or gal that is making 35-45k/yr.

Is the level of responsibility and education different for the docs versus the 40 k earners?

 

[PikminOC]

There's only so much you can reduce your overhead, and no- I already run barebones. My overhead is actually excellent. 59% give or take. But regardless, you can only reduce so much. I don't have a fish tank, no waiting room tv, no cable, no extraneous expenses like netflix for patients etc, lowest subscription costs (just enough to keep the practice running), no fancy equipment etc. But if the lab bill goes up, and the subscription costs go up, and the market wages go up, then so does everything else.

You can work as hard as you can, but eventually inflation creeps in and that 59% becomes 61% to 63% to 65%. Just a few years ago I was around 55% or less. Every year there is an increase, and I have to figure out ways to offset it.


These layoffs are a drop in the bucket.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/22/tech/big-tech-pandemic-hiring-layoffs/index.html

Amazon: 1 million to 1.5 million during covid...and now they are laying off 18k.
Microsoft: From 163k, to 221k, laying off 10k.

In addition, if you actually look into it, majority of this is middle managers, and lower roles- not your big tech guys. Yes there are developers getting laid off- but they are getting hired elsewhere. Big tech basically sucked up all the talent during covid- and smaller firms got left with nothing- now with layoffs- these positions are getting filled.

Basically- the doom and scare of tech layoffs- if you read at face value- look scary- but if you dig deeper- you realize it's nothing compared to how much they over hired and the scarcity of workers in the other tech fields since all the big techs sucked up all the talent. They are getting jobs left and right:

Most laid-off workers today are quickly finding new jobs, survey shows

Losing your job hurts. But a tight labor market and low unemployment are cushioning the blow for many of those who get axed.

www.cbsnews.com

Plus they are getting raises and or not taking a payout from their previous job. As a dentist with a lot of techie friends- I know first hand that the field ain't doom and gloom. A lot are getting offers at banks, startups, manufacturing etc as those fields have been sucked dry of talent because big tech took all the them during the pandemic.

Don't worry- as a dentist- we will always have a job with declining income year over year. That's no problem, and I guess something in the grand scheme of things we should be thankful for.

Yes my staff and costs in my field have gone way up too. I run lean but staff is commanding much more salary nowadays because they can. All other overhead has gone up too, property taxes, office supplies, etc. People are really nervous about money. I haven't changed my fees in over 5 years and certainly can't at this time.

 

[PikminOC]

Then why do more than 50% of the millennials move back home to live with their parents after college? (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). I don’t think dentistry is trending down faster than other professions. Last weekend, I met my MD anesthesiologist cousin again….and he complained to me about how the mid level practioners have slowly replaced the physicians.

It’s not easy for new grad teachers to get jobs at public schools because of job stability and good retirement package. Many teachers have to get lower paid jobs at private schools…they have to wait for a long time before they can find opened positions at public schools. It takes 17 years for a public school teacher to reach the $106k salary. I know some dentists who start enjoying their semi-retire life after much less than 17 years of practicing. ColdFront, you are one of these dentists. Jst21121 is another one….he’s only 35yo. I work 3 hrs a day when I am at my own office.

My CPA is at least 10 years older than me and he is still working hard. He used to work as a real estate agent on the side.

Lack of Job stability is the problem for many people who are in non-health professions. And when they get laid off, it's not easy for them to find another similar paid job.

This is happening in medicine too. There's a thread in the psychiatry forum of the psychiatrist getting replaced by a midlevel

 

[PikminOC]

Other jobs can’t keep up with the inflation either. That’s why home affordability has dropped sharply in recent years. The rents increase. Food and gas prices increase. Everything costs more now. A lot of people are hurting right now…. despite the low unemployment rate.

U.S. Home Affordability Drops to Lowest Level in 10 Years

ATTOM releases its Q3 2018 U.S. Home Affordability Report, which shows that home prices were at the least affordable level since Q3 2008.

www.attomdata.com

When these people hop jobs for a higher wage, it means that they may have to face longer commute time….or move the whole family to another state (disrupting their kids’ schooling/friendship)….or face bigger responsibility at the new jobs. In other words, they have to put in extra effort in order to get paid more. It’s the same for dentistry, if you put in extra effort and work harder, you will make more. Nothing in life is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs.

Yes, it’s possible for owner dentists. An owner can increase his incomes by:

- Cutting the hours or eliminating the hygienist if there are too many empty slots in the book…and the hygienist and assistants are sitting around doing nothing . Without the hygienist, the owner dentist becomes less efficient and has to work harder (more days) but the $$$ he saves for not hiring the hygienist goes straight to his pocket. If your practice is too busy and can’t operate smoothly without the hygienist, then you shouldn’t complain about paying the hygienist. Isn’t being busy a good thing?

-Booking as many patients in one day as possible and working less days per week. Then use the extra days in the week to work for someone else (corp or another private office) to increase your income. That’s what my sister did. When she first started her office, she worked 3 days at her own office and 4 days a week for the corp. I currently do both also....10 days/month for myself and 7 days/month for corp office. Many of the associate general dentists who work at the same corp with me also have their own offices.

Yes, it does keep up with the inflation if you work more days. For every workday per week that you add, you can easily increase your income by $50k/year (if you are a general dentist), by $100+k/year (if you are an ortho). That’s how my sister and I are able to make more than our colleagues…..despite being in an oversaturated market. That’s how she could buy her own office building and paid it off a few years later.


I don’t see trading 11 years of my life (4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs DDS, 1yr GPR, 2 yrs ortho) for a stable highly paid job a huge sacrifice. Life in college and dental school wasn’t too bad for me.….it’s better than for the kids (at my age), who chose not to go to school and had to work minimum wage jobs (because of lack of college education and skills). If I was in my 20s and had to choose between studying and working a minimum wage job, I'd choose studying and hanging out with friends. I worked as a busboy in HS and college and it wasn’t fun.

Just like other jobs, the associate dentists can increase their incomes by changing jobs and increasing the efficiency (from the experience that they gain). Being good and fast helps a lot.

When you pay off debts, your greatest asset is your income...... Inflation and recession don't matter much anymore.


It's about time to cut those unnecessary expenses. My office still uses paper charts and it runs just as efficient as the offices that spent 3-4 times more in overhead. The patients don't really care what toys you have in your office. They only care about the results and prices.


Despite the decline of dentistry, there are still a lot of people who quit their jobs to go back to school to pursue dentistry. I recently met a newly grad dentist, who earned his DDS at 47. He went to an ivy school and had tried several jobs (owning a restaurant, working in banking, in real estates etc). The ortho who bought an office from me (it's a leasehold sale because I moved my office) was a pilot before he went back to school for dentistry/ortho.

Nothing beats being your own boss

Being your own boss is very different from corporate. I've worked both and see the challenges in both.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Being your own boss is very different from corporate. I've worked both and see the challenges in both.

As my own boss, I call the shots, but you are so right. When I had my two kids- the most time I got off was 1 week. Hiring an associate and or temp dentist just doesn't make financial sense- plus you never know who you get- someone bad that might be overly aggressive in treatment planning etc.

So... yeah. I feel for the lady dentist owners- thats such a hard one to figure out. You need time off to take care of the the newborn- while guys can sorta take off back to work.

Yes my staff and costs in my field have gone way up too. I run lean but staff is commanding much more salary nowadays because they can. All other overhead has gone up too, property taxes, office supplies, etc. People are really nervous about money. I haven't changed my fees in over 5 years and certainly can't at this time.

Yup, same here, fees are the same and I don't expect changes. The only thing I see looking forward is more increased costs.

How’s dentistry recession proof? Dental insurance doesn’t cover squat, and patients can’t self-pay when unemployed. Sure, people will always pay to have a tooth pulled after letting it go neglected

Dentistry is interesting- its recession proof if you are in a locally diverse area. If you are in a local economy with some tech, manufacturing, and healthcare- you will be fine- people still have insurance/jobs and will come in and get work done- maybe not as much- but they will still come in. If you are in a small town with just a local manufacturer- then you are screwed - but still should be "relatively" fine.

Regardless it's recession proof because most practices run on 50-70% overhead- which means you can take a 50-30% haircut in loss of revenue before you start "losing" money. Restaurants run at 5% which means any changes in the local economy for worse- and you can be running at -25% which is terrible. In dentistry- to actually fail- is incredibly hard. You might not "make as much" but you def won't go bankrupt.

Is the level of responsibility and education different for the docs versus the 40 k earners?

Yup. It makes no sense to argue about 40k earners and someone that went to 8 years of 300-500k professional schooling. I mean we can take it further- the 40k earner should be happy they aren't making 60 cents an hour in indonesia making adidas shoes or 1-4$ an hour in China making apple phones.

 

[AONLINE]

180k-200k is the norm nowadays for a brand new grad, FYI. This is a post from a FB dental group:

 

[Thehighwind87]

180k-200k is the norm nowadays for a brand new grad, FYI. This is a post from a FB dental group:
View attachment 368484

I honestly take "guarantee pay" with a grain of salt. There is no such thing in the world as guaranteed pay without strings attached. When I was associating- I was "guaranteed pay" but with stipulations such as- if I don't make the "baseline" and sit around- they would "deduct" from my next paycheck. One month I was making 500$ guaranteed a day- the next month I got deducted x amount because I didn't mean baseline. You can't just show up do 1 filling and then then expect 500-700$ a day. Obviously the owner would lose money. With 180k salary- at 30% collections- the practice expect 600k production at bare minimum to earn your keep, which amounts to 50k a month, which on a 5 day work week- they expect 2k collections a day- means you gotta be working hard to make the practice baseline.

So the guarantee nonsense is to get workers in the door and then it's on you to produce. Usually a guarantee is sorta there as a lifeline for 1-3 months to get you up to speed- but after that- the lifeline is gone. In life- especially dentistry- there is no guarantees with fillings, crowns, root canals- and your paycheck.

 

[Cold Front]

180k-200k is the norm nowadays for a brand new grad, FYI. This is a post from a FB dental group:
View attachment 368484

So… Medicaid hasn’t raised their fees for over a decade at most states. So who will be holding the bag at that salary level? What would the new grad with 0 experience produce first year? Maybe 2k a day at best? That’s 40k a month at best. 480k a year. 180k salary is 37.5% of that 480k production. This is the best case scenario, as there will be slow days, bad weather days, public holidays, personal time offs, sick days, denied claims, re-doing previous procedures at no cost (filling fell out, extraction incomplete, denture adjustments, etc). that will push that 480k number down to 400k production for the year. 180k / 400k production = 45%. Really? Nope.

That 180-200k first year out is a “mirage” and most likely comes with some caveats. Only someone you really know would give that sweet deal to you as a new grad.

 

[AONLINE]

Ok maybe 180-200k income is a reach for a brand new grad with 0 experience (I personally didn’t make that much right out of school) but not uncommon for a dentist after 1 year of experience, no matter where you live. This is another post on the same FB dental group, this guy/gal lives in the supposedly very saturated state of California. FYI, I’m also a 2021 grad and I make the same income as this person but I live in a state with lower COL than California.

 

[Thehighwind87]

View attachment 368641
Ok maybe 180-200k income is a reach for a brand new grad with 0 experience (I personally didn’t make that much right out of school) but not uncommon for a dentist after 1 year of experience, no matter where you live. This is another post on the same FB dental group, this guy/gal lives in the supposedly very saturated state of California. FYI, I’m also a 2021 grad and I make the same income as this person but I live in a state with lower COL than California.

I like to think of income online like height.

If you ask a guy their height- they will prob add a few inches.

Everyone embellishes their income, height etc

 

[AONLINE]

I like to think of income online like height.

If you ask a guy their height- they will prob add a few inches.

Everyone embellishes their income, height etc

For what gain lol? Guys add a few inches to height on dating apps in order to impress more girls, but when they post anonymously on reddit they share their accurate height lol. Both Facebook posts that I shared are from anonymous posters asking for advice, not for bragging. I am also an anonymous user on this forum, no reason for me to inflate my income lol.

 

[Thehighwind87]

For what gain lol? Guys add a few inches to height on dating apps in order to impress more girls, but when they post anonymously on reddit they share their accurate height lol. Both Facebook posts that I shared are from anonymous posters asking for advice, not for bragging. I am also an anonymous user on this forum, no reason for me to inflate my income lol.

Dunno, everyone inflates their income, height, their loan debts. Regardless I like to think of associate income being 150-200, 200 being topped out but you are working hard at it. Anything more is a great gig. There is a huge multitude of salaries when it comes to associating and how hard one works.

Regardless, the end goal should be ownership. You can double that income while working less.

 

[axiumgod]

“people are making 180-200k out of school”
“No they’re not”
“Here’s the evidence”
“They’re lying”

Gotta love sdn 😂

 

[charlestweed]

So… Medicaid hasn’t raised their fees for over a decade at most states. So who will be holding the bag at that salary level? What would the new grad with 0 experience produce first year? Maybe 2k a day at best? That’s 40k a month at best. 480k a year. 180k salary is 37.5% of that 480k production. This is the best case scenario, as there will be slow days, bad weather days, public holidays, personal time offs, sick days, denied claims, re-doing previous procedures at no cost (filling fell out, extraction incomplete, denture adjustments, etc). that will push that 480k number down to 400k production for the year. 180k / 400k production = 45%. Really? Nope.

That 180-200k first year out is a “mirage” and most likely comes with some caveats. Only someone you really know would give that sweet deal to you as a new grad.

Perhaps, this particular DSO office has too many medicaid patients that they take too much time away from the managing dentist. They hire a new grad to treat all these low paid medicaid patients so the senior managing dentist has more time to focus on doing highly productive procedures on FFS patients and patients with good insurances. It’s not a loss for the corp even if the $180k salary that they pay this new grad is 50% (or more) of the gross production since cost of opening an office (rent, electricity, and other fixed expenses) is already paid for. So it’s better to fill the chairs with medicaid patients than having holes in the schedule and unfilled chairs…and let the staff sitting around doing nothing. Producing something is better than producing nothing. Of course, the corp expects the new grad to produce for them 2-3x more than that $180k salary. When they hired him, they hoped that he would get faster and become more efficient as time goes by. And if he’s good, they’ll promote him to the senior managing position….and get rid of (or demote) the current managing dentist. But if he doesn’t improve, they’ll let him go because they have a long list of new grad dentists, who want this $180k job.

 

[charlestweed]

Dunno, everyone inflates their income, height, their loan debts. Regardless I like to think of associate income being 150-200, 200 being topped out but you are working hard at it. Anything more is a great gig. There is a huge multitude of salaries when it comes to associating and how hard one works.

Regardless, the end goal should be ownership. You can double that income while working less.

A lot of people (non-dental people...people who have no college degrees) tend to inflate their incomes to impress you. Even people who are your close relatives/friends can lie to you about their incomes. Therefore, you should not believe 100% in what they told you..... and made you think that there are a lot of other easier ways to make money than going into dentistry. There's no such thing as easy money or getting rich quick. The process to build wealth is a slow and steady (hard work, perseverance, sacrifice) one.

 

[todentornottodent]

(hard work, perseverance, sacrifice)

these are the traits I'm implementing to get my bench to 225

 

[luisfigo]

I'm a '21 grad, made 186k last year with no production from hygiene room, exams or xrays, at 30% production 4 days a week, and tomorrow I become part owner of the practice, everything is a mixed bag but I enjoy it. Def can be a good way to make money imo. Reality looks very different though with lots of debt. My income will go from 186k to about 430-460k. Sounds nice but numbers wise I'll probably only make, conservatively, 50k more being an owner this year. As my production goes up I'll make more money, and when my loan gets paid off that'll be about 130k in income difference. So yeah, one day I could tell people I make around 500k/year, but with practice loan and 200k student loan, that gets siphoned off pretty quickly, not even mentioning taxes. IMO starting your own cheap office in a smaller town seems like a great option.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Depends on how many days a week you are working and your patient base and If you don’t plan to open your own practice, then I am not sure if you will enjoy dentistry.

Hard to stomach owning a business now-a-days when inflation is painful. Just got an email saying that one of my suppliers is raising fees across the board 5%. Now I'm looking for a new supplier.

I feel bad for the new grads coming out in this new world. A lot of us older dentists at least have paid off the mortgage, or practice, or have a decent nest egg. It's getting tougher every year now.

Yes we have associates saying that 180-200k is the norm now for new grads, but lets get real, back in 2010 when I graduated 150-200k was the norm...and houses like mine were 500-700k. Now the same house is 1.4-5 million and we still have the same "wages" a decade ago.

 

[Splenda88]

Hard to stomach owning a business now-a-days when inflation is painful. Just got an email saying that one of my suppliers is raising fees across the board 5%. Now I'm looking for a new supplier.

I feel bad for the new grads coming out in this new world. A lot of us older dentists at least have paid off the mortgage, or practice, or have a decent nest egg. It's getting tougher every year now.

Yes we have associates saying that 180-200k is the norm now for new grads, but lets get real, back in 2010 when I graduated 150-200k was the norm...and houses like mine were 500-700k. Now the same house is 1.4-5 million and we still have the same "wages" a decade ago.

Home price from 2008-2013 was not truly a representative of the housing market in many part of the country. People were getting anywhere from 30-70% discount.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

these are the traits I'm implementing to get my bench to 225

Skip the hard work and go with Black market Testosterone. Everyone will be impressed. The people selling swamp lands can hook you up.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Home price from 2008-2013 was not truly a representative of the housing market in many part of the country. People were getting anywhere from 30-70% discount.

And home prices 2021-22 are pretty much a markup of 50-100% in some areas of the country. The only issue though that I doubt we see any of them go back to pre covid prices. I think we might have a 10-20% decline- but that still means houses are up 30-80%+. Regardless wages haven't kept up with inflation. That's the key sticking point, and it will continue to get worse as core inflation will probably be elevated for years to come.

 

[dent2394]

Home price from 2008-2013 was not truly a representative of the housing market in many part of the country. People were getting anywhere from 30-70% discount.

S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index

View data of a benchmark of average single-family home prices in the U.S., calculated monthly based on changes in home prices over the prior three months.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Home prices from 2008-2013 weren't that great.

 

[Thehighwind87]

S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index

View data of a benchmark of average single-family home prices in the U.S., calculated monthly based on changes in home prices over the prior three months.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Home prices from 2008-2013 weren't that great.

Yup. Prices just go up with more money printing.

Wages don’t or barely keep up. Gotta keep up with inflation- I go with stocks and real estate. I don’t look at my dental practice as an appreciating asset. More stagnant. I take all my income and invest.

Any spare cash in the business or personal is invested immediatly. No savings here

 

[Splenda88]

S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index

View data of a benchmark of average single-family home prices in the U.S., calculated monthly based on changes in home prices over the prior three months.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Home prices from 2008-2013 weren't that great.

They were great in metro FL, NV, CA, GA and AZ. These were the market I was/am familiar with.

I bought in south FL for peanuts. I was offered 2/1 condos in West Palm Beach FL for 14-15k (yes 14-15k). These same condos now are 200k.

 

[Thehighwind87]

They were great in metro FL, NV, CA, GA and AZ. These were the market I was/am familiar with.

I bought in south FL for peanuts. I was offered 2/1 condos in West Palm Beach FL for 14-15k (yes 14-15k). These same condos now are 200k.

Nice 2008 was really a once in lifetime opportunity. I don’t think we will ever have that again- unless we lose the reserve currency- but if that happens we will have bigger issues like hyperinflation due to our debt and worthless dollar.

The best we can hope for are these dips like Covid, 2022 (inflation) and then market goes back up cuz the money printer gets fired up again. I doubt we will ever see an outright crash like 08

 

[Cold Front]

Hard to stomach owning a business now-a-days when inflation is painful. Just got an email saying that one of my suppliers is raising fees across the board 5%. Now I'm looking for a new supplier.

I feel bad for the new grads coming out in this new world. A lot of us older dentists at least have paid off the mortgage, or practice, or have a decent nest egg. It's getting tougher every year now.

Yes we have associates saying that 180-200k is the norm now for new grads, but lets get real, back in 2010 when I graduated 150-200k was the norm...and houses like mine were 500-700k. Now the same house is 1.4-5 million and we still have the same "wages" a decade ago.

2010 grad here as well.

Well, I’ve been saying it on SDN for a decade or so now. The cost of living and student loans have been increasing faster than the average dental income. Then I realized I had a captive audience full of pre-dents. lol

Inflation in 2021 was 7%, 2022 was nearly 9%, and so far this year it’s 6% and is projected to end close to that number this year/2023. That’s a total of 22% within 3 years, and if you make 200k today, your actual purchase power is 159k compared to 2019. That’s over 40k of income that could have been saved or improve a dentist’s quality of life that’s lost without our control. So imagine comparing it to a dentist who made 200k in 2010, the same dentist with the same income today would stand to lose close to 100k in purchase power, specially in big cities that typically have even higher inflation. Even if today’s dentists are making 500k, it will feel like making low 300s today. Inflation hurts even more at higher incomes. That’s just 1 issue.

Student loans have been going up also at a faster pace than the average dentist income. It was very rare to carry 400k in student debt as a GP, or 600k as a specialist back in 2010. Now majority of current dental students are borrowing those numbers, and it’s rising every year. That’s issue #2.

To own/open a new practice is 50-100% more expensive today than 2010. Interest rates are also higher. Most cities are at least 30% more saturated. The nation opened at least 15 more new dental schools since 2010, and 5 more are in the pipeline. More dentists = stagnant income (by design from dental insurance companies) = more dental corporations = fewer private owned dental offices. That’s issue #3.

There are other issues that I won’t be able to cover in just 1 post. But some are sneaky stuff, like a recession that’s around the corner now. It’s historically bad news for dentists income (patients delay or can’t afford treatments during a recession). Our social security contributions have gone up a lot over the years; the income cap in 2010 was 106k, today it’s 160k and rising every year, which is also bad for dentists as most make more than the limits. It’s about $4k a year difference from 2010 to 2023, but when you consider all the other stuff I mentioned above, it adds up fast, and it will feel like taking a “L” every year going forward.

Most young dentists are full of energy and feel their income will increase as they develop more clinical skills. Yes, to some extent. But ask any dentist over 50 today, they will tell you their income had at least 3 phases; learning curve phase, peak phase and “my body and mind prefers to work 3-4 days a week” phase. All dentists will eventually get older and will work less to earn less money. I’m in my early 40’s and you couldn’t pay me enough to work more than 4 days/week. Some of us forget what we do is physical work, even machines eventually slow down and produce less.

 

[Thehighwind87]

2010 grad here as well.

Well, I’ve been saying it on SDN for a decade or so now. The cost of living and student loans have been increasing faster than the average dental income. Then I realized I had a captive audience full of pre-dents. lol

Inflation in 2021 was 7%, 2022 was nearly 9%, and so far this year it’s 6% and is projected to end close to that number this year/2023. That’s a total of 22% within 3 years, and if you make 200k today, your actual purchase power is 159k compared to 2019. That’s over 40k of income that could have been saved or improve a dentist’s quality of life that’s lost without our control. So imagine comparing it to a dentist who made 200k in 2010, the same dentist with the same income today would stand to lose close to 100k in purchase power, specially in big cities that typically have even higher inflation. Even if today’s dentists are making 500k, it will feel like making low 300s today. Inflation hurts even more at higher incomes. That’s just 1 issue.

Student loans have been going up also at a faster pace than the average dentist income. It was very rare to carry 400k in student debt as a GP, or 600k as a specialist back in 2010. Now majority of current dental students are borrowing those numbers, and it’s rising every year. That’s issue #2.

To own/open a new practice is 50-100% more expensive today than 2010. Interest rates are also higher. Most cities are at least 30% more saturated. The nation opened at least 15 more new dental schools since 2010, and 5 more are in the pipeline. More dentists = stagnant income (by design from dental insurance companies) = more dental corporations = fewer private owned dental offices. That’s issue #3.

There are other issues that I won’t be able to cover in just 1 post. But some are sneaky stuff, like a recession that’s around the corner now. It’s historically bad news for dentists income (patients delay or can’t afford treatments during a recession). Our social security contributions have gone up a lot over the years; the income cap in 2010 was 106k, today it’s 160k and rising every year, which is also bad for dentists as most make more than the limits. It’s about $4k a year difference from 2010 to 2023, but when you consider all the other stuff I mentioned above, it adds up fast, and it will feel like taking a “L” every year going forward.

Most young dentists are full of energy and feel their income will increase as they develop more clinical skills. Yes, to some extent. But ask any dentist over 50 today, they will tell you their income had at least 3 phases; learning curve phase, peak phase and “my body and mind prefers to work 3-4 days a week” phase. All dentists will eventually get older and will work less to earn less money. I’m in my early 40’s and you couldn’t pay me enough to work more than 4 days/week. Some of us forget what we do is physical work, even machines eventually slow down and produce less.

The 22% loss for the past three years doesn’t factor in the loss of money by giving raises to staff and eating overall inflation cost in service and goods.

The 200k income to 159k income in three years is actually worse when that is considered. For example, staff wages for me went from 50 to 65$ in this time. That’s about a 20-30k paycut and with two staff like that it’s more like 40-60k paycut.

So in general 200k to 159k is generous. If you are an owner- you probably took a bigger payout.

Regardless, the future is trending towards a medicine type of model where things become more corporate. Smaller practices won't sell- probably sell charts and close, medium size practices may or may not be purchased, and bigger ones will prob be sold off to corps. It's hard to see a practice now as a "nest egg" when incomes are declining year over year (due to inflation), and prospective buyers need a large amount of cash flow to finance/make the purchase worth it since debt like house/student loans have increased. It wouldn't make sense for a prospective buyer to purchase a small/medium size practice at 200-250k cash flow and when debt obligations are met- make less then 100k or even less then that. Makes more sense to associate. Those small/medium size practices that can't meet those obligations will have no buyers and be sold pennies on the dollar.

Ironically the practices that will sell and make sense for a person with large debt load- are those that cash flow high...and those practices will probably cost 700-1+mil plus. So more debt debt debt.

 

[Cold Front]

The 22% loss for the past three years doesn’t factor in the loss of money by giving raises to staff and eating overall inflation cost in service and goods.

The 200k income to 159k income in three years is actually worse when that is considered. For example, staff wages for me went from 50 to 65$ in this time. That’s about a 20-30k paycut and with two staff like that it’s more like 40-60k paycut.

So in general 200k to 159k is generous. If you are an owner- you probably took a bigger payout.

Regardless, the future is trending towards a medicine type of model where things become more corporate. Smaller practices won't sell- probably sell charts and close, medium size practices may or may not be purchased, and bigger ones will prob be sold off to corps. It's hard to see a practice now as a "nest egg" when incomes are declining year over year (due to inflation), and prospective buyers need a large amount of cash flow to finance/make the purchase worth it since debt like house/student loans have increased. It wouldn't make sense for a prospective buyer to purchase a small/medium size practice at 200-250k cash flow and when debt obligations are met- make less then 100k or even less then that. Makes more sense to associate. Those small/medium size practices that can't meet those obligations will have no buyers and be sold pennies on the dollar.

Ironically the practices that will sell and make sense for a person with large debt load- are those that cash flow high...and those practices will probably cost 700-1+mil plus. So more debt debt debt.

Absolutely.

All these trends are boring to look up, and I get it, young dentists are focused on jumping over the small stream creek of dental school to get to the other side… and that’s when things start to get interesting. They will see the profession and how it relates to everything else for themselves. It’s like dating someone online until you meet them in person. No more “I heard” or “I think” or “I bet”. They will walk the path of being associate at a narrower financial path than their predecessors. They will be paying higher fees for dental licenses, DEA, CE courses, dental societies membership fees, all the other BS that some of us older dentists are complaining about paying at higher fees.

The odds of owning a dental practice is declining due to stricter lending. The odds of buying a home these days is also not good. Some higher income tax brackets that POTUS 45/Trump eliminated will likely be reinstated in couple of years, so dentists will pay higher taxes. A recession is a still the elephant in the room. No one knows where the next black swan will come from, but it will come as all leading indicators (yield curves, aggressive interest rate hikes by the Fed, lack of liquidity speeding up, distressed commercial properties exposed to regional banks, etc) are all coming to roost. But why does this matter to young dentists? Because it will not be 1998 or 2005 or 2010 or whoever they shadowed as a pre-dent graduated. It’s going to be a time to do things with more difficulty than older dentists did at a young age.

Most dental schools will release their 2023-2024 tuition increases this month. Most will just dig few more feet in the existing “debt hole” for the students they just accepted.

 

[charlestweed]

Dentists are not the only ones who suffer from this inflation. All of the young working professionals suffer from this. The average starting salary for new grad engineers is around 90-100k a year and much lower for people with other non-STEM degrees. The starting salary for dentists is around $150-180k. Sadly, these starting salaries are too low for them to buy a house since the prices of the starter homes are close to $1 million. It’ll probably take at least 10 years of hard work for them come up with a 20% down for a $1 million house. To buy a $1 million house, one needs to have a steady annual income of at least $300k/year. And dentistry is one of a few professions that allows one to have this $300k earning potential if (a big if) one is willing to work hard and make sacrifice.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Dentists are not the only ones who suffer from this inflation. All the young working professionals suffer from this. The average starting salary for new grad engineers is around 90-100k a year and much lower for people with other non-STEM degrees. The starting salary for dentists is around $150-180k. Sadly, these starting salaries are too low for them to buy a house since the prices of the starter homes are close to $1 million. It’ll probably take them at least 10 years of hard work for them come up a 20% down for a $1 million house. To buy a $1 million house, one needs to have a steady annual income of at least $300k/year. And dentistry is one of a few professions that allows one to have this $300k earning potential if (a big if) one is willing to work hard and make sacrifice.

Sounds like there really is only three options:

1) recession and a reset which is desperately needed
2)hyperinflation and or elevated inflation- rich get richer and things worsen for the average American without assets- house becomes 1 million to 2 million etc.
3) soft landing where prices stop going up but remain elevated- which is the feds dream scenario. This still doesn’t address the gross difference between wages and housing etc.

 

[Splenda88]

Sounds like there really is only three options:

1) recession and a reset which is desperately needed
2)hyperinflation and or elevated inflation- rich get richer and things worsen for the average American without assets- house becomes 1 million to 2 million etc.
3) soft landing where prices stop going up but remain elevated- which is the feds dream scenario. This still doesn’t address the gross difference between wages and housing etc.

I guess the increase in home price is forcing some to move to small city or town.

Home price is going down in the big metro; however, price is slightly going up where I live (small city of 60k people) due to demand.

 

[Splenda88]

Things could be worse guys/gals.

Here's the Average American's Income by Education Level

Does going to college really make a difference when it comes to your income? New data from the U.S. Census may surprise you. Read on to learn more.

www.fool.com

 

[Cold Front]

I guess the increase in home price is forcing some to move to small city or town.

Home price is going down in the big metro; however, price is slightly going up where I live (small city of 60k people) due to demand.

Home prices are going down the west coast, but going up in the east coast. California is seeing the biggest price drops in the nation, and also the biggest declines in population. Plus they just introduced the 4% mansion (over $5M homes) tax that started yesterday. Some of those homes were about $1M before Covid. Plus a lot of tech layoffs in Silicon Valley area, bringing prices down even further. The rest of the country is still seeing modest to big increases in home values, including my city in the Midwest.