IM residency programs with best cardiology match

[marcello]

I am currently interviewing for an internal medicine residency intending to pursue a cardiology fellowship with an interest in academics. My question concerns the perception of a handful of IM programs among cardiology circles. Specifically, how is Penn's IM residency viewed when compared to programs like BWH, JHU, Columbia, UCSF when it comes time for cards fellowship matching--are they all comparable or is JHU/BWH significantly more prestigious? How do these programs compare among one another? Match lists are difficult to interpret (handful of applicants, some elect a community cards fellowship, geographic preference of the applicant, etc.) and any help is appreciated. Thank you.

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[ProgCoordinator]

Bear in mind that any answer you get is arguable and subjective. Differences could be because of region, clinical interests, research interests, past graduates, etc. Some of the highly regarded IM programs (from my program's perspective) are Duke, UCSF, Mass Gen, Columbia-Presbyterian, Brigham, Penn, Wash U, Hopkins, Northwestern, Michigan. This isn't really in any particular order.

A good program won't get you a fellowship. A program that isn't top tier won't absolutely hinder your chances either. No matter where you end up what will set you apart from other candidates will be how productive you are when you get there, so find a program that's a good fit for you. That's the most important thing.

Also remember that your subspecialty interest may very well change during residency.

 

[CANE4LIFE]

I am interested in Cards and trying to figure out my IM ranklist. I was wondering how much better is Columbia for cards compared to Cornell and Sinai.

 

[OptimusPrime]

yes

 

[Larry Renal]

I don't think you should base where you go for the next 3 years of your life on what anybody on this website says. I say go where you'll be happy and fit in. All the places you mentioned have a great rep and you'll get a fellowship somewhere for sure if you put in time to research, getting to know faculty (read: LOR) and doing well in your residency.

I'm just applying to fellowship now, but take that for what it's worth.

L

 

[dr niceguy]

I don't think you should base where you go for the next 3 years of your life on what anybody on this website says. I say go where you'll be happy and fit in. All the places you mentioned have a great rep and you'll get a fellowship somewhere for sure if you put in time to research, getting to know faculty (read: LOR) and doing well in your residency.

I'm just applying to fellowship now, but take that for what it's worth.

L

This is true in the sense that you obviously wouldn't want to go somewhere where you know that you will be unhappy. However, you're referring to three programs in the same city, so I'm assuming you'll like living in New York. Out of those three, if you're serious about cardiology, then Columbia is clearly a cut above in terms of cardiology match. Its a very prestigious program with good 'street cred', a good track record in cardiology match from what I remember from interviews-better than sinai or cornell, and very well known faculty, some of whom are actually accessible to research with. That being said, you can go to Columbia and match worse than you would had you gone to Sinai and put out 2 papers. But overall I agree with optimus in that you would be losing quite a bit for cards. And keep in mind that most residents end up liking their residency program- in the sense that regardless of if you go to columbia, cornell, or sinai, in a a year and half chances are you'll think you're in a good program, doing well, and enjoying it (as much as you can enjoy residency).

 

[OptimusPrime]

dr. niceguy took the words straight out of my mouth. kid if you're serious about cards and thats what you want (congrats on a great choice by the way) go to columbia. the only thing that is more important than where you come from (residency wise) for fellowship match is who you know (aka not so great program but you worked/get LOR from world renown faculty).

therefore among your choices columbia should be hands down number one, plus it is a great program for medicine in general to begin with.

good luck and god speed.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think I concur w/optimus.
However, I didn't take my own advice (went to a "less prestigious" IM residency vs. staying at my well known med school's IM residency b/c I felt like moving and liked the other IM program better).

I do think that the prestige of the program you are in has as much influence on where you'll get fellowship as how well you do in residency...simply because prestige can sometimes get you in the door to an interview,and because most residents do pretty OK during residency. If you go to Harvard and get a terrible eval. from your program director, that's not going to help you, but in reality that seldom happens unless you slack or get in fights with people.

All 3 of those programs sound solid, but Columbia definitely has higher prestige, particularly if you are thinking of foraying outside of NYC area for fellowship. If you think you'd be seriously unhappy at Columbia, or have specific research interests or connections w/faculty at one of the other 2 places, that's another story.

 

[Myostatin]

I'm a PGY3 at Cornell and did very well in the interview/match process for Cards last year. On average Columbia seems to have done somewhat better in the cardiology match than Cornell, but I would not say dramatically so. The main reason I chose Cornell was that when applying the match list showed multiple people matching at MGH, Brigham, Duke, etc. - not sig different from Columbia - keep in mind that this is in spite of the fact that most of the people at Columbia matching at these placed do a chief year and apply later, while at cornell the chief position is post-fellowship so this is not even a consideration. In the 2006 and 2007 matches our results were more variable, but this largely represents idiosyncratic applicant's preferences to stay in NYC above all else rather than a change in the reputation of the program.

During interviews at least 5 of us (none were MD/PHds) were consistently getting interviews at the top programs, so I firmly believe that Cornell will not close any doors for you.

 

[Keg]

Sorry for reviving a thread from the dead (there should be a zombie "Smiley" for such an occasion), but I have a question that is similar, yet slightly different.

Whereas the OP was scheduling interviews, I haven't applied yet (ERAS opens tomorrow). I'm a fourth year at Wash U currently, and I am trying to figure out where to apply for IM. I'm definitely going into cards, and am leaning like a Pisan tower toward interventional. As I said before, I'm currently training in St. Louis; I'm from Nashville, and my fiancee is from Chicago. When it's all said and done, I'd like to practice in Chicago, Nashville, Atlanta, or Florida, if regionality matters. In any case, my limitations on where I'm applying is that I'd prefer to be no further west than Mayo or UTSW - otherwise, I'm completely open with regards to location and setting. If stats will help, I can provide them, but I'm told that I should be very competitive everywhere I apply; my only failing is no publications (despite 3 years of UG research and a summer project in med school). I'm a very laid back person, so malignant programs and myself don't get along well in my mind (i.e. Wash U would be great... but I can't suicide at my home institution). If you were me and were trying to put together a list of where to apply, what would be on that list?

Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to answer - it's appreciated!

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From discussions with residents here, my current beta list is as follows (in no particular order):

Wash U, Michigan, Vandy, UAB, UTSW, Baylor, Emory, Mayo, Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Penn, MGH, BID, B&W, JHU, Northwestern, and maybe UChicago

 

[Cards21aceking]

I think my list is fairly similar to yours (about to apply to ERAS w/ likely Cards) +/- a few. I've never been too keen on NYC, so leaving Cornell and Columbia off my list, but I'm open to going out west.

The only program that I think I have that you could consider is Duke. Granted they had some trouble w/ the match a couple years ago, but I think that was more their own doing. good luck w/ the process.

 

[aicd]

Keg,

The three most important selection factors in the cardiology fellowship match are the reputation of your IM program, research, and letters of rec. With that in mind, I would apply broadly to the best IM programs in the country. In terms of reputation and match lists, you can use the following tier system as a rough guide where to apply, with the caveat that all are excellent training programs:

Tier 1A:
Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, UCSF

Tier 1B:
Columbia, Penn, Duke

Tier 2:
Stanford, UTSW, WashU, Michigan, Northwestern, Emory, UChicago, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Yale

 

[Misterpeppers]

mostly agree with aicd, but would add the further caveat that if you combine strength of residency program + academic cardiology faculty strength + strength of academically oriented cardiology fellowship training among the "tier 1A" I would give the nod to Brigham. after interviewing at several well known academic programs for fellowship this past year, it seemed like every program had a prominent faculty member (chief or PD or well known researcher) that did their training at the Brigham for cardiology, whatever thats worth.

 

[Cards21aceking]

Keg,

The three most important selection factors in the cardiology fellowship match are the reputation of your IM program, research, and letters of rec. With that in mind, I would apply broadly to the best IM programs in the country. In terms of reputation and match lists, you can use the following tier system as a rough guide where to apply, with the caveat that all are excellent training programs:

Tier 1A:
Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, UCSF

Tier 1B:
Columbia, Penn, Duke

Tier 2:
Stanford, UTSW, WashU, Michigan, Northwestern, Emory, UChicago, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Yale

Any particular idea where BID or UAB would fall?

 

[Myostatin]

Aicd's characterization is spot on. I would say BID is in the 2nd tier listed above. UAB has a well known cardiology division, though I don't have any idea how program directors view the medicine residency. I'm not sure I would agree that Brigham has a leg up on the other "1A" programs in terms of getting you into a felowship, but there's certainly more clinically relevant cardiology research going on there than at the other Harvard affiliates as far as I can tell.

Keep in mind that your program is not the end all. Stellar research and a geniune desire to go into academics can get you into a top fellowship coming from a "tier 2" program, but even if you go to a "tier 1a or 1b" program, you're going to have a tough time matching at the top 5-10 cards programs if you don't have sig publications or research projects going. I.e., if that's your goal, get your names on some papers starting now!

 

[drdavemd]

Part of how the "strength of program" factor helps is the resources you have access to and the faculty you can potentially have write your letters. Remember how important it is to feel like you fit in to your selected program/location/research interests/etc.

IE: If you pick Hopkins over Penn thinking it is going to land you a better fellowship, but it turns out that you hate Baltimore and don't get along with any faculty then you haven't done yourself any favors.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

How are publications judged in terms of "good"? For instance, if someone has a few pubs but none first author though they did spend time doing all of them, is that good enough for competitiveness sake?

I'm not first author on any of my publications and only now working on a first author paper, but I do know the research that I've been involved with very thoroughly to discuss at interviews.

 

[tachycore]

Try the impact factor of the journal. You should know this if you submitted publications. The higher, the better.

 

[drdavemd]

You should know about the impact of the journal you submit to but also be aware of what you wrote.

Wrote up a great "first ever" case report? Great, that's neat, but it's not very hard hitting research. Were you 15th author on the JUPITER trial? That's pretty awesome even if you are way down the list. Even if you were first author on something, if you cannot hold an intelligent conversation about what the research was, what it means for the future, and what role you played in the research, then you run the risk of looking like a fool when someone spots the pub on your CV and asks you about it.

Understand your research, what your role was, and be ready to discuss it. IMHO that's where you stand to win the most points in the application/interview process.

 

[tarlovcyst]

I am currently interviewing for an internal medicine residency intending to pursue a cardiology fellowship with an interest in academics. My question concerns the perception of a handful of IM programs among cardiology circles. Specifically, how is Penn's IM residency viewed when compared to programs like BWH, JHU, Columbia, UCSF when it comes time for cards fellowship matching--are they all comparable or is JHU/BWH significantly more prestigious? How do these programs compare among one another? Match lists are difficult to interpret (handful of applicants, some elect a community cards fellowship, geographic preference of the applicant, etc.) and any help is appreciated. Thank you.

How you do is in the cardiology match is 50% program driven and 50% individually driven.

Reputation of your residency matters. I hear Columbia > Cornell, but in my eyes, I need to see the individual applicant. These big institutions generally have the big name attendings. Ahem, I'm not talking about myself, but the big name attendings are usually president of so and so society. Point is that they are well known and can call on your behalf to you. Excuse my language, but it is WHO you know, not who you bl*w, in this case.

Moving onto point two, the applicant needs to be motivated. Get involved in research EARLY and finish out those projects with posters, pubs, or anything that ties up the projects. If the applicant is not motivated, it doesn't matter if you come from MGH. I won't rank you.

if you come from a smaller community program, there is no doubt that it'll be harder to match into cards. Smaller programs tend to not have the big fish at their institution, but if the applicant is motivated, I will consider them strongly.

 

[EaglesPA]

How you do is in the cardiology match is 50% program driven and 50% individually driven.

Reputation of your residency matters. I hear Columbia > Cornell, but in my eyes, I need to see the individual applicant. These big institutions generally have the big name attendings. Ahem, I'm not talking about myself, but the big name attendings are usually president of so and so society. Point is that they are well known and can call on your behalf to you. Excuse my language, but it is WHO you know, not who you bl*w, in this case.

Moving onto point two, the applicant needs to be motivated. Get involved in research EARLY and finish out those projects with posters, pubs, or anything that ties up the projects. If the applicant is not motivated, it doesn't matter if you come from MGH. I won't rank you.

if you come from a smaller community program, there is no doubt that it'll be harder to match into cards. Smaller programs tend to not have the big fish at their institution, but if the applicant is motivated, I will consider them strongly.

Agree with above.
Whoever thinks the name of your IM residency program will not matter when you are applying for fellowship (especially competitive ones like Cards) is kidding themselves....it is not a coincidence that the big name programs usually match more of their residents to the "best" fellowships - (granted this is confounded by the fact that the residents that ended up going to these big name IM residencies had great resumes to begin with)
However, name is not ALL that matters. Coming from a big name program will definitely increse your chances of "getting through the door" for interviews but whether or not will match will depend on YOU (i.e. grades, scores, publication, likeability etc.)
Specifically to the OP's question, going to Penn will NOT limit your fellowship chances compared with JHU/BWH/MGH/UCSF etc.