I am extremely terrified of Neuroanatomy

[Kahreek]

Nonmarginal pass, I am now an MS2 I guess. Happy, and at the same time scared for STEP1.

that is what I call living like a boss. Yeahhhhhhh.
One step at a time, as they say.
Cheyaaah

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[altitudinarian]

Congrats! =D And keep working hard.

 

[Psai]

Nice job bro, welcome back

 

[pmarank]

Nonmarginal pass, I am now an MS2 I guess. Happy, and at the same time scared for STEP1.

Nice. Btw would you mind sharing your stats from undergrad? Can we assume you had a 3.6+ and a 30+? Also do you go to a US MD? Just curious how undergrad performance matters in med school.

 

[PL198]

Do you think you would have passed anatomy if it wasn't the first class? I feel like a lot of people struggle with it simply because of the transition from undergrad to med school, rather than something innate about anatomy itself.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Do you think you would have passed anatomy if it wasn't the first class? I feel like a lot of people struggle with it simply because of the transition from undergrad to med school, rather than something innate about anatomy itself.

This is probably true, but I still think anatomy was the hardest class I've had so far. I haven't taken pharm yet but I think this class wins med school in sheer volume of material per day.

 

[DocVapor]

Nonmarginal pass, I am now an MS2 I guess. Happy, and at the same time scared for STEP1.

Congrats.

And you should be scared of step 1. But use that fear as the impetus for action to not let yourself get in this position again.

 

[DermViser]

Congrats.

And you should be scared of step 1. But use that fear as the impetus for action to not let yourself get in this position again.

I agree. There will always be some nerves there, but harness it to take action rather than to let it paralyze you.

 

[DermViser]

Do you think you would have passed anatomy if it wasn't the first class? I feel like a lot of people struggle with it simply because of the transition from undergrad to med school, rather than something innate about anatomy itself.

I think it's bc Anatomy is nearly all memorization. There is no rhyme or reason to it. Not every anatomical structure is going to have a clinical correlate to go with it.
The ones who took an undergraduate Anatomy course were naturally ahead of the rest of us in that area who were taking it for the first time.

Now some schools spread out their anatomy over 1-2 years, vs. some do it in the expanse of 2 months. Depending on what type of learner you are, how long Anatomy is spread out over can help or hurt you. But yes, I do think it's something innate about Anatomy itself, unless you're Rainman, then it's no problem.

 

[pilotjoe]

I couldn't imagine what it would be like going through anatomy for the first time in medical school. My tensions are slightly eased that I took a very hands-on cadaver dissection class taught by a former physician during ug. We had three cadavers for 18 students but half the class was either a little freaked out or didn't want to do the work. She (our professor) even gave us some basic clinical application questions to semi-prepare us for what med anatomy would be like. Still, my school does anatomy in eight weeks and I know that the caliber of difficulty will be beyond what I experienced in ug.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I think it's bc Anatomy is nearly all memorization. There is no rhyme or reason to it. Not every anatomical structure is going to have a clinical correlate to go with it.
The ones who took an undergrad Anatomy course were naturally ahead of the rest of us in that area.

Now some schools spread out their anatomy over 1-2 years, vs. some do it in the expanse of 2 months. Depending on what type of learner you are, how long Anatomy is spread out over can help or hurt you. But yes, I do think it's something innate about Anatomy itself, unless you're Rainman, then it's no problem.

At my school, the MD/MPH and MD/PhD students do Anatomy longitudinally, and they seem to enjoy/tolerate it far more than we did.

 

[DermViser]

At my school, the MD/MPH and MD/PhD students do Anatomy longitudinally, and they seem to enjoy/tolerate it far more than we did.

In theory, it makes more sense to learn the Gross Anatomy as you approach each organ system, but logistically that means cadavers have to then be preserved for a much longer period of time.

 

[xffan624]

In theory, it makes more sense to learn the Gross Anatomy as you approach each organ system, but logistically that means cadavers have to then be preserved for a much longer period of time.

We did it over the course of the year. There was a little degradation over time, but nothing severe. I definitely enjoyed doing it in a block approach. It made the memorization a little less painful and it meant we only spent a couple hours in the lab every week instead of every day.

 

[PL198]

In theory, it makes more sense to learn the Gross Anatomy as you approach each organ system, but logistically that means cadavers have to then be preserved for a much longer period of time.

In my opinion, cadavers didn't add much to my experience besides "cool factor." I felt the same way about neuro lab. I think using books with real pictures instead of animations (such as color atlas of anatomy) gives you 90 % (random arbitrary declaration) of the same quality with obviously much less logistical challenges and not requiring students to go to gross lab. That might just be me though. I'm a big fan of the systems approach. My school doesn't do that, and I feel like it's nearly impossible to retain the anatomy knowledge from the beginning of the class. I have found that I've kept a far amount of the more recent stuff though.

 

[DocVapor]

In theory, it makes more sense to learn the Gross Anatomy as you approach each organ system, but logistically that means cadavers have to then be preserved for a much longer period of time.

Yup. My anatomy lasted nearly a full year (went along with our systems-based curriculum for the most part). By the time we made it to the pelvic region (the last region we dissected), things were pretty tough to distinguish. My cadaver had also grown some mold - the service had used an experimental embalming fluid that definitely didn't last.

 

[DocVapor]

In my opinion, cadavers didn't add much to my experience besides "cool factor." I felt the same way about neuro lab. I think using books with real pictures instead of animations (such as color atlas of anatomy) gives you 90 % (random arbitrary declaration) of the same quality with obviously much less logistical challenges and not requiring students to go to gross lab. That might just be me though. I'm a big fan of the systems approach. My school doesn't do that, and I feel like it's nearly impossible to retain the anatomy knowledge from the beginning of the class. I have found that I've kept a far amount of the more recent stuff though.

Really? In addition to anatomy lab, my school bought us VHDissector Pro. It was definitely cool, but I felt like I got MUCH more out of being able to get my hands in the real thing than using the program or any of the books I looked at. Props to you for being able to get more out of the books.

 

[PL198]

Really? In addition to anatomy lab, my school bought us VHDissector Pro. It was definitely cool, but I felt like I got MUCH more out of being able to get my hands in the real thing than using the program or any of the books I looked at. Props to you for being able to get more out of the books.

I guess another important point is when we are talking about learning, are we talking about actual knowledge, or being able to answer identification questions in an examination setting? Some might see them as the same, but I don't. In my opinion, anything that would ever been on an ID exam is going to be presented very cleanly, just maybe in different angles than traditionally seen. So I guess my thoughts are more like " I can get through the class and answer questions using just an atlas." That might be limited and not as practically valid for actual practice, but I very much doubt any anatomy I'd learn in med school would ever make a significant difference in my learning as a resident . Again just my opinion though.

 

[DocVapor]

I guess another important point is when we are talking about learning, are we talking about actual knowledge, or being able to answer identification questions in an examination setting? Some might see them as the same, but I don't. In my opinion, anything that would ever been on an ID exam is going to be presented very cleanly, just maybe in different angles than traditionally seen. So I guess my thoughts are more like " I can get through the class and answer questions using just an atlas." That might be limited and not as practically valid for actual practice, but I very much doubt any anatomy I'd learn in med school would ever make a significant difference in my learning as a resident . Again just my opinion though.

Definitely see your point.

 

[DermViser]

In my opinion, cadavers didn't add much to my experience besides "cool factor." I felt the same way about neuro lab. I think using books with real pictures instead of animations (such as color atlas of anatomy) gives you 90 % (random arbitrary declaration) of the same quality with obviously much less logistical challenges and not requiring students to go to gross lab. That might just be me though. I'm a big fan of the systems approach. My school doesn't do that, and I feel like it's nearly impossible to retain the anatomy knowledge from the beginning of the class. I have found that I've kept a far amount of the more recent stuff though.

I agree. I don't think cadavers are really that important, UNLESS you're an aspiring surgeon then it's obviously important, esp. for spatial orientation and recognition. It's the only time you'll get exposed to it before MS-3 Surgery. More important at least for Step 1 are recognizing basic structures on CT, MRI, or X-ray, etc. making it more clinically relevant.

Some hotshot med schools while you're dissecting have screens showing how structures look on imaging modalities.

 

[DermViser]

I guess another important point is when we are talking about learning, are we talking about actual knowledge, or being able to answer identification questions in an examination setting? Some might see them as the same, but I don't. In my opinion, anything that would ever been on an ID exam is going to be presented very cleanly, just maybe in different angles than traditionally seen. So I guess my thoughts are more like " I can get through the class and answer questions using just an atlas." That might be limited and not as practically valid for actual practice, but I very much doubt any anatomy I'd learn in med school would ever make a significant difference in my learning as a resident . Again just my opinion though.

Depends. If you're pimped on something during a surgery, having seen it before helps. Without ID questions, you won't be able to answer more complicated questions.

 

[Kahreek]

I don't really consider anatomy dissecting experience that relatable to surgery performance. Mind image of the body via several images and layouts is more helpful than identifying them in vivo. You will have plenty of time to study surgery anatomy should you ever go into surgery, which is different from academic anatomy.

 

[DermViser]

I don't really consider anatomy dissecting experience that relatable to surgery performance. Mind image of the body via several images and layouts is more helpful than identifying them in vivo. You will have plenty of time to study surgery anatomy should you ever go into surgery, which is different from academic anatomy.

I'm not saying it relates to surgery performance. However, when you're retracting and get pimped on structures during a surgery then having seen it before helps. Many times attendings will grade you accordingly based on your ability to answer pimp questions. That's something an atlas and radiologic imaging can't substitute for. Cadaver dissection allows you to appreciate which structures are superficial and which structures are deep and appreciate spatial orientation and size of structures relative to each other. I'm not saying you'll magically know it again in Surgery, but it will come back much faster.

Certain schools are better at teaching anatomy clinically than others.

 

[Psai]

I agree. I don't think cadavers are really that important, UNLESS you're an aspiring surgeon then it's obviously important, esp. for spatial orientation and recognition. It's the only time you'll get exposed to it before MS-3 Surgery. More important at least for Step 1 are recognizing basic structures on CT, MRI, or X-ray, etc. making it more clinically relevant.

Some hotshot med schools while you're dissecting have screens showing how structures look on imaging modalities.

Man instead of wasting money on stupid screens they should hire more anatomy faculty. Mine were overwhelmed with all the students trying to get their attention and I feel like if I had someone there that knew what they were talking about, it would have been a much better experience. Seemed like most of the people who were anatomy TAs were fourth years who wanted free time for checking their emails and going on interviews. The future urologists and future orthopedic surgeons were really great (not surprising) but everyone else was meh.

 

[DermViser]

Man instead of wasting money on stupid screens they should hire more anatomy faculty. Mine were overwhelmed with all the students trying to get their attention and I feel like if I had someone there that knew what they were talking about, it would have been a much better experience. Seemed like most of the people who were anatomy TAs were fourth years who wanted free time for checking their emails and going on interviews. The future urologists and future orthopedic surgeons were really great (not surprising) but everyone else was meh.

The screens are more for showing atlas images, how structures look on radiologic imaging, etc. Not surprising that the future urologists/orthos were great at it - TAing helps them in recalling anatomy when they start residency. Most of the time people TA Anatomy bc they did well in it when they took it and want to build up their CV.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Nice job bro, welcome back

Yeah, it's good to be back. Dermviser made me stay off SDN until all my exams were over.

 

[PL198]

My gross lab was basically the gunner kids either A) grabbing multiple professors and hoarding them for an entire session(they would literally ask questions such as " how often is this tagged," or " what are all the possible angles you could tag this") give me a break..... or B) never dissecting anything themselves and floating group to group and asking those people to show them stuff. We had probably like 12-14 faculty too and I honestly probably had 1-2 chances over 3 hours to see 1 of them. That really pissed me off.

Also if this pertains at all, I was the person who was actually doing the dissecting. I found myself wanting to just follow the steps and get done with the dissector rather than actually trying to learn. I think it's a person by person basis with the spatial stuff. Some atlases do a fantastic job of spatially orienting someone and making it easy to understand. I can use a Haine's neuro atlas and demolish the practicals without ever even going into neuro lab. I think it's all about the "compasses" or whatever we want to call them that basically signify what level or section you are looking at relative to the rest of the body or brain. So I guess I'd say the ability to do so is really resource dependent.

 

[DermViser]

My gross lab was basically the gunner kids either A) grabbing multiple professors and hoarding them for an entire session(they would literally ask questions such as " how often is this tagged," or " what are all the possible angles you could tag this") give me a break..... or B) never dissecting anything themselves and floating group to group and asking those people to show them stuff. We had probably like 12-14 faculty too and I honestly probably had 1-2 chances over 3 hours to see 1 of them. That really pissed me off.

Also if this pertains at all, I was the person who was actually doing the dissecting. I found myself wanting to just follow the steps and get done with the dissector rather than actually trying to learn. I think it's a person by person basis with the spatial stuff. Some atlases do a fantastic job of spatially orienting someone and making it easy to understand. I can use a Haine's neuro atlas and demolish the practicals without ever even going into neuro lab. I think it's all about the "compasses" or whatever we want to call them that basically signify what level or section you are looking at relative to the rest of the body or brain. So I guess I'd say the ability to do so is really resource dependent.

Yes, Neuroanatomy lab is definitely much different than Gross Anatomy lab. For Neuroanatomy - Haines neuro atlas is enough and a dissection lab is unnecessary. For Gross, having the aspiring Surgeon in the group dissect helps. I thought Rohen's atlas is great if you want to learn from cadaver photos.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I'm just so happy that I don't have to do Gross again. That class traumatized me to the point that I would sabotage dissections just so I could leave earlier, deliberately mutilating arteries and nerves as my group stared in horror. I think my TAs and instructor didn't care because they thought I was doing it out of sheer ineptitude.

The aspiring surgeon in our group was a quiet, deferential girl, unfortunately, and she didn't want to do much either.

 

[DermViser]

I'm just so happy that I don't have to do Gross again. That class traumatized me to the point that I would sabotage dissections just so I could leave earlier.

The aspiring surgeon in our group was a quiet, deferential girl, unfortunately, and she didn't want to do much either.

Then she definitely isn't an aspiring surgeon.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Then she definitely isn't an aspiring surgeon.

She insists she wants to do ENT for some reason.

 

[DermViser]

She insists she wants to do ENT for some reason.

So then she must be an avid dissector on Head and Neck. If not, then she's not serious.

 

[PL198]

So then she must be an avid dissector on Head and Neck. If not, then she's not serious.

Lol 60 % of my class wants to do ortho, yet osteology is stupid(their words, not mine).

brb I want to be a radiologist, but MRIs are dumb

 

[DermViser]

Lol 60 % of my class wants to do ortho, yet osteology is stupid(their words, not mine).

brb I want to be a radiologist, but MRIs are dumb

I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with perceived salaries.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

This is probably true, but I still think anatomy was the hardest class I've had so far. I haven't taken pharm yet but I think this class wins med school in sheer volume of material per day.

I think this totally depends on who teaches, how they teach it, and what they expect. Anatomy was probably the easiest course of first year at my school (although having said that, it was also my worst % grade, so maybe I'm FOS).

 

[DermViser]

This is probably true, but I still think anatomy was the hardest class I've had so far. I haven't taken pharm yet but I think this class wins med school in sheer volume of material per day.

Yeah, but Pharm is a lot easier to understand bc of Physiology (i.e. CV Physiology and CV drugs). It's not entirely rote. First Aid and PharmCards helped A LOT.

 

[notbobtrustme]

You caught dysuria from an egg?

and thus, a Uworld question was born.

 

[pmarank]

Just curious, what happens if someone fails an exam during second year? There is no summer afterwards right?

 

[Arkangeloid]

Just curious, what happens if someone fails an exam during second year? There is no summer afterwards right?

The school sends contract killers to murder you for tarnishing its reputation.

Just kidding, you remediate as usual, they give you a week to do so.