Goro's guide to the DO school app process

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Same here. No DO wants students to shadow

One of the hidden tests of shadowing is, "How far are you willing to go to learn about this profession?" To pass this hurdle, you've got to ask face-to-face.

There's a story in the Hebrew scriptures about Jacob wrestling an angel all night. I'm no rabbi, and I'm not clear on how it works, but at the end of the night, the angel beats him, but somehow Jacob can keep him from leaving, and he says to the angel, "I will not let you go until you bless me." It's at this point that Jacob gets a new name - Israel - and that's the name that all his descendants took for their people.

Why am I telling this story? You've got to find a doctor and beg. And when one doctor says no, ask if they know someone you could ask. I shadowed a PA, an NP, and a chiropractor, too - and learned important things from watching each of them with patients. It was part of my Journey.

I had no luck until I talked to a OMS-2 who referred me to someone who had been a preceptor at the school. I walked into his office and asked him to please let me shadow. Now I just show up whenever I have some time, and follow him around his office, and he teaches me things. It's better than I could've imagined.

Hang in there. You can do it. Embrace your Courage Wolf.

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One of the hidden tests of shadowing is, "How far are you willing to go to learn about this profession?" To pass this hurdle, you've got to ask face-to-face.

There's a story in the Hebrew scriptures about Jacob wrestling an angel all night. I'm no rabbi, and I'm not clear on how it works, but at the end of the night, the angel beats him, but somehow Jacob can keep him from leaving, and he says to the angel, "I will not let you go until you bless me." It's at this point that Jacob gets a new name - Israel - and that's the name that all his descendants took for their people.

Why am I telling this story? You've got to find a doctor and beg. And when one doctor says no, ask if they know someone you could ask. I shadowed a PA, an NP, and a chiropractor, too - and learned important things from watching each of them with patients. It was part of my Journey.

I had no luck until I talked to a OMS-2 who referred me to someone who had been a preceptor at the school. I walked into his office and asked him to please let me shadow. Now I just show up whenever I have some time, and follow him around his office, and he teaches me things. It's better than I could've imagined.

Hang in there. You can do it. Embrace your Courage Wolf.

Winter is coming.
 
You'd be surprised...look at locum tenens work....theres a lot of ER positions available to be filled that pay $200/hr. Plus it's an easy field to travel to different locations with, if that's your thi
Winter is coming.
"


While I honor the greeting of the Westermen, my Tirian was "the last of the Kings of Narnia, who stood firm in the darkest hour."
 
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One of the hidden tests of shadowing is, "How far are you willing to go to learn about this profession?" To pass this hurdle, you've got to ask face-to-face.

There's a story in the Hebrew scriptures about Jacob wrestling an angel all night. I'm no rabbi, and I'm not clear on how it works, but at the end of the night, the angel beats him, but somehow Jacob can keep him from leaving, and he says to the angel, "I will not let you go until you bless me." It's at this point that Jacob gets a new name - Israel - and that's the name that all his descendants took for their people.

Why am I telling this story? You've got to find a doctor and beg. And when one doctor says no, ask if they know someone you could ask. I shadowed a PA, an NP, and a chiropractor, too - and learned important things from watching each of them with patients. It was part of my Journey.

I had no luck until I talked to a OMS-2 who referred me to someone who had been a preceptor at the school. I walked into his office and asked him to please let me shadow. Now I just show up whenever I have some time, and follow him around his office, and he teaches me things. It's better than I could've imagined.

Hang in there. You can do it. Embrace your Courage Wolf.


I think this has some truth in it. Shadowing is inherently an awful thing to ask to do. You're asking to bother a professional so that you can benefit and come out as better adapted to to answering interview questions and such.

If you shadow you've taken a lot of incentive and overcomed a lot of barriers. I think that inherently has a lot of effect and benefit.
 
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I don't think I've ever seen one, but Committee letters kind of count as that.
Thanks! Do you know if all DO schools take a committee letter? All the ones I've looked at say a committee letter OR 3 others, 2 from science professors. Is this universal?

Additionally, what is the average number of LORs you get? Thanks!
 
I've never heard of any DO requiring a committee LOR like some MD schools do, but mine will accept either individual or committee LORs. the format you state is what we use. Don't forget DO schools typically require a LOR from a clinician, and several require that to be from a DO.

Thanks! Do you know if all DO schools take a committee letter? All the ones I've looked at say a committee letter OR 3 others, 2 from science professors. Is this universal?

Additionally, what is the average number of LORs you get? Thanks!
 
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I received my MCAT score today, and I bombed the verbal with a 5. My overall score is a 24 (11 5 8). I want to retake it 10/21, but isn't it too late? There is a 9/18 date, but I feel that it is too soon. My AACOMAS GPA is 3.4 overall and science, and I'm a bilingual URM. The rest of my app is good with great experiences, etc. I submitted my AACOMAS two weeks ago and I'm waiting to get verified. I am willing to apply very broadly. Thanks.
 
I received my MCAT score today, and I bombed the verbal with a 5. My overall score is a 24 (11 5 8). I want to retake it 10/21, but isn't it too late? There is a 9/18 date, but I feel that it is too soon. My AACOMAS GPA is 3.4 overall and science, and I'm a bilingual URM. The rest of my app is good with great experiences, etc. I submitted my AACOMAS two weeks ago and I'm waiting to get verified. I am willing to apply very broadly. Thanks.
make sure to apply to all of the new schools. I think you have a good chance getting into a less competitive school like LMU or VCOM. Cross off CCOM, AZCOM, KCUMB, CUSOM and the Touro's.
 
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I received my MCAT score today, and I bombed the verbal with a 5. My overall score is a 24 (11 5 8). I want to retake it 10/21, but isn't it too late? There is a 9/18 date, but I feel that it is too soon. My AACOMAS GPA is 3.4 overall and science, and I'm a bilingual URM. The rest of my app is good with great experiences, etc. I submitted my AACOMAS two weeks ago and I'm waiting to get verified. I am willing to apply very broadly. Thanks.

Same situation here. This was my retake and scored a 6 in PS, which has always been my nemesis. I have huge anxiety with calculation based questions. My cGPA is 3.74 and sGPA is 3.52 and I'm also on the verification train. If I retook the MCAT 10/21 would this be really late? I have great EC's (leadership, clinical, non-clinical,research, shadowing), plus this would be a third test take for me and I'm not sure how well that looks, but I can tell tell you that after shadowing the last DO in the emergency room, I can't imagine doing anything else...it was the best experience thus far. Chin up and push on I guess.
 
You can take the MCAT in Nov and it sill won't be too late.

Same situation here. This was my retake and scored a 6 in PS, which has always been my nemesis. I have huge anxiety with calculation based questions. My cGPA is 3.74 and sGPA is 3.52 and I'm also on the verification train. If I retook the MCAT 10/21 would this be really late? I have great EC's (leadership, clinical, non-clinical,research, shadowing), plus this would be a third test take for me and I'm not sure how well that looks, but I can tell tell you that after shadowing the last DO in the emergency room, I can't imagine doing anything else...it was the best experience thus far. Chin up and push on I guess.
 
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@Goro, maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, but how is the DO approach different from the MD approach?

Are there things that you feel DO's are trained to do better than MD's?
 
Google is your friend.

Just for starters, and I have literally seen this in action, DOs are more likely to talk to you, instead of their charts or computer screen, and actually touch you.



@Goro, maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, but how is the DO approach different from the MD approach?

Are there things that you feel DO's are trained to do better than MD's?
 
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DOs are more likely to talk to you, instead of their charts or computer screen, and actually touch you.

Interesting you mention that...at least once per shift the DOs (two different ones) I shadowed sat down on a chair in the room and had an actual conversation with the patients and/or their families. In a busy ED. Vastly different than my MD shadowing experience in the same ED. I also noticed a difference in the physical exam performed by the AOA EM residency trained DO and the ACGME residency trained DO.
 
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OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...arted-goros-guide-to-the-app-process.1075272/

But here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.

  • Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" one more time, I'm going to reach across the table and smack you upside the head!

  • To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school, or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.
  • If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.
  • DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.
  • While there are DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT, having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile.
  • If you look at the numbers , DO schools have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of third-tier MD schools, like, say, Rush, U AR or U KS. So like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0-3.1 for GPA, and MCAT of 23-25.
  • To that end, if your MCAT score is <23, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest retaking all F/D/C coursework and/or get the GPA >3.0.
  • If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competetive residency, chill. First, consider that having a DO degree doesn't mean you can only be a FP or ER doc. My grads have gotten into anesthesiology, radiology, ophthalmology, neurology, orthopedics, pathology and other competitive specialties. I've met DO nephrologist, cardiologists and rheumatologists (the Dean of Touro-NV is one of the latter). The vast majority of my students don't go into specialties not because they can't, but because they come to my school self-selecting for primary care. End result, having an MD degree doesn't mean one can blithely waltz into a Peds Neurology residency.
  • I believe it will be easier for DO grads to specialize with the AOA/ACGME merger. If anything, I think the DOs are getting more out of this than the MDs. The only losers will be the IMGs.
  • Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will happy places for gay or minority students.
  • If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa.
  • When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"

Thank you for all that you do for SDN. I find everything you write useful. Here is my question. I am currently completing a Masters in Oslo Norway (amazingly graduate school is free here and the program is very good). However, the system is a bit different here. For example, most classes are pass/fail. Those that are not P/F have one examination and each student is given three chances to take the examination with the highest score counting as the final grade. The problem is that after the first examination that grade is posted on your transcripts. It is not until you take the second... or third... that the score changes. With that said, my grades are good except that the last course I took (and unfortunately it made it on my AAMCOS transcript) I took the test and received a D. I am going to retake the test next month and as my ability to read Norwegian has greatly improved, I feel confident I will do much better.

Here is my question, I am not receiving interviews and I wonder if I should email those I have submitted secondaries to and explain this situation. The second thing is that starting next week I have a DO here in Oslo (Christian Fossum) that I am going to start working closely with.

Should I email the schools that sent me secondaries to explain this, or should I just sit tight?

Thank you.
 
I can't sugar coat this, doc. It will be very hard to interpret a transcript full of P's. I f you passed everything with a 75, that's not very assuring to us that you can handle medical school.

Best to contact some admissions deans to see where you stand.

Thank you for all that you do for SDN. I find everything you write useful. Here is my question. I am currently completing a Masters in Oslo Norway (amazingly graduate school is free here and the program is very good). However, the system is a bit different here. For example, most classes are pass/fail. Those that are not P/F have one examination and each student is given three chances to take the examination with the highest score counting as the final grade. The problem is that after the first examination that grade is posted on your transcripts. It is not until you take the second... or third... that the score changes. With that said, my grades are good except that the last course I took (and unfortunately it made it on my AAMCOS transcript) I took the test and received a D. I am going to retake the test next month and as my ability to read Norwegian has greatly improved, I feel confident I will do much better.

Here is my question, I am not receiving interviews and I wonder if I should email those I have submitted secondaries to and explain this situation. The second thing is that starting next week I have a DO here in Oslo (Christian Fossum) that I am going to start working closely with.

Should I email the schools that sent me secondaries to explain this, or should I just sit tight?

Thank you.
 
I can't sugar coat this, doc. It will be very hard to interpret a transcript full of P's. I f you passed everything with a 75, that's not very assuring to us that you can handle medical school.

Best to contact some admissions deans to see where you stand.

Thank you
 
Thank you for all that you do for SDN. I find everything you write useful. Here is my question. I am currently completing a Masters in Oslo Norway (amazingly graduate school is free here and the program is very good). However, the system is a bit different here. For example, most classes are pass/fail. Those that are not P/F have one examination and each student is given three chances to take the examination with the highest score counting as the final grade. The problem is that after the first examination that grade is posted on your transcripts. It is not until you take the second... or third... that the score changes. With that said, my grades are good except that the last course I took (and unfortunately it made it on my AAMCOS transcript) I took the test and received a D. I am going to retake the test next month and as my ability to read Norwegian has greatly improved, I feel confident I will do much better.

Here is my question, I am not receiving interviews and I wonder if I should email those I have submitted secondaries to and explain this situation. The second thing is that starting next week I have a DO here in Oslo (Christian Fossum) that I am going to start working closely with.

Should I email the schools that sent me secondaries to explain this, or should I just sit tight?

Thank you.
It's a graduate program in Norway. The question is what are your real stats like? Undergrad gpa and MCAT. Are you an American citizen or green card holder?
 
It's a graduate program in Norway. The question is what are your real stats like? Undergrad gpa and MCAT. Are you an American citizen or green card holder?
American citzen and that is what I thought also - my undergrad isn't bad actually, 3.23 science - not great but semi-solid. MCAT was 27.
 
American citzen and that is what I thought also - my undergrad isn't bad actually, 3.23 science - not great but semi-solid. MCAT was 27.

hmmm, that's strange. the only other thing is whether you applied broadly enough.
 
hmmm, that's strange. the only other thing is whether you applied broadly enough.

Honestly, I think including that grad work might be going against me; which makes me think I should not have included it - as it is a bit of a different system and the pass/fails are all 90% and above (passed them all). The one grade that is not good (D) is set up to take the test three times and I have only taken it once. Won't be able to retake until right after Christmas, but my ability to read Norwegian is so much better - it is hard to believe I won't at least make a B.

Anyway - thanks for the response.
 
Since shadowing my first DO six years ago and going through DO medical school, the only difference I've noticed is that DOs prefer doing one-handed knots while MDs prefer doing 2-handed knots. The four osteopathic principles are not something that is controversial and any MD would accept it too.

DO school does teach OMM which you can use to make extra money. It's an extra $50 per patient which adds up real quick, and can be done in a few minutes. The ceiling for making money is a little higher for a DO. Plus a DO can just not do residency and do OMM straight out of med school, making $400k a year.

Edit: I suppose this info won't help pre-meds. To them I tell them that my school requires DO shadowing and a letter from him/her, so it's very much a requirement at most schools. On my interview, when my interviewers asked me "why DO?" I just said "I want to do OMM" and kept it simple. If I was interviewing an applicant, and they come up with this complicated holistic medicine response, I would start rolling my eyes.
 
Since shadowing my first DO six years ago and going through DO medical school, the only difference I've noticed is that DOs prefer doing one-handed knots while MDs prefer doing 2-handed knots. The four osteopathic principles are not something that is controversial and any MD would accept it too.

DO school does teach OMM which you can use to make extra money. It's an extra $50 per patient which adds up real quick, and can be done in a few minutes. The ceiling for making money is a little higher for a DO. Plus a DO can just not do residency and do OMM straight out of med school, making $400k a year.

Edit: I suppose this info won't help pre-meds. To them I tell them that my school requires DO shadowing and a letter from him/her, so it's very much a requirement at most schools. On my interview, when my interviewers asked me "why DO?" I just said "I want to do OMM" and kept it simple. If I was interviewing an applicant, and they come up with this complicated holistic medicine response, I would start rolling my eyes.

are you sure about this? (the $400k a year part)
 
I know a doctor because we both go to the same small unorthodox gym. I talked to him about applying to DO schools and asked him if he knew any. He told me of a buddy of his who works at a medium size clinic. I called them so many times for a couple months and they were "always writing notes to contact said DO" but honestly nothing happened. I showed up and talked to the receptionist and the DO came out and we talked and then I was able to shadow over a few months. Sometimes you need to show up in person and be real before anything happens...true in general. He was such a nice down to earth guy, but he probably thought the last thing to do was to remember to contact some dude looking to shadow him because of the hectic nature of physicians.
 
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are you sure about this? (the $400k a year part)

Yeah there are a few doctors in the Southern California area who do OMM straight out of med school. They only take cash, and they make $400k. Of course it takes some business acumen to make it work. Some only make $200k.
 
Some ideas for the "why DO?" question:

1. You learn everything MDs do and then some--can never be bad thing no matter what specialty. My friend's dad is a DO anesthesiologist at a largely MD hospital in Dallas and when she was shadowing her dad he had to help an MD doctor get an IV in an obese patient. He was able to get it just right b/c of his DO training. That's pretty cool!

Not sure if those were actually good answers or not but they were true for me and I got accepted!

I don't think the reason he got the IV was because he went to a DO school instead of MD school.
 
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I don't think the reason he got the IV was because he went to a DO school instead of MD school.
Agreed. That actually makes no sense. Unless the DO preformed OMM b4 hand? Still makes no sense
 
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I'm sure this has been answer somewhere before, but if my application says processing that means its still getting verified correct? I only ask cause I've seen posts where it has said ready to review etc.
 
Agreed. That actually makes no sense. Unless the DO preformed OMM b4 hand? Still makes no sense
images
 
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On my interview, when my interviewers asked me "why DO?" I just said "I want to do OMM" and kept it simple. If I was interviewing an applicant, and they come up with this complicated holistic medicine response, I would start rolling my eyes.

If/when that time comes, that would be my most likely response, because it's true. Also because most of my direct physician experience was with DO's (anecdotally, it seems they're overrepresented in the military).
 
I'm sure this has been answer somewhere before, but if my application says processing that means its still getting verified correct? I only ask cause I've seen posts where it has said ready to review etc.

Yep
 
Hello @Goro !
Quick question! Before realizing, I submitted my LORs to a school without even having my app completely processed. I am applying to the school, but they haven't even seen my app yet. Is this a big deal?? Might be a silly question, but thought you could help me fix it if its a deal. Thanks!
 
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Google is your friend.

Just for starters, and I have literally seen this in action, DOs are more likely to talk to you, instead of their charts or computer screen, and actually touch you.
From what I have seen, working with many docs for the 6 years I've been in surgery The difference between DO and MD is this. DOs are more inclined to spend more time with patient, do a thorough physical evaluation (hands on), make a diagnosis and use labs and other tests to confirm their Dx. MDs tend to not spend as much time with the patient and wait for labs and diagnostics to make their Dx. Not saying that MDs are bad or that they are all like that. In general I have noticed that DOs tend to have superb bed side manner and an aptitude for relating well with patients. I assume it has something to do with the way the are trained and the elements of the physician patient relationship that are stressed.
 
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It will be OK

Hello @Goro !
Quick question! Before realizing, I submitted my LORs to a school without even having my app completely processed. I am applying to the school, but they haven't even seen my app yet. Is this a big deal?? Might be a silly question, but thought you could help me fix it if its a deal. Thanks!
 
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I don't think the reason he got the IV was because he went to a DO school instead of MD school.


Yes. This is so, totally unrelated. You want to get a lot of practice. Those that seem to get the most are in anesthesia and the ED or some ICUs--even though there are other people, like nurses, around to do it for them. You get better with practice. You get better when you have more practice on difficult sticks-like in the ED or IC, as opposed to always getting the nice, thin people with good, stable vessels that a well-hydrated. Sometimes, even after a great stretch of IV successes, you just hit a wall, and you ask someone else to jump in. Sometimes, believe it or not, it's luck--especially when you have to do blind sticks. Sometimes, you are just having a less than stellar day. Sometimes, the mom freaking out standing over you screaming as you are sticking her baby rattles you a bit. Family-centered care can be fun during those moments. :) Funny thing is, the Olympic IV-Stick Gold Medalist has periodic bad runs. Many variables; but the earlier comments about practice apply overall. There are indeed times, however, when being good and being lucky give you the same odds at getting the line in. Way it goes.
 
From what I have seen, working with many docs for the 6 years I've been in surgery The difference between DO and MD is this. DOs are more inclined to spend more time with patient, do a thorough physical evaluation (hands on), make a diagnosis and use labs and other tests to confirm their Dx. MDs tend to not spend as much time with the patient and wait for labs and diagnostics to make their Dx. Not saying that MDs are bad or that they are all like that. In general I have noticed that DOs tend to have superb bed side manner and an aptitude for relating well with patients. I assume it has something to do with the way the are trained and the elements of the physician patient relationship that are stressed.


I have seen this, but overall, I must admit that it just really depends on the physician. I mean I have seen some DO's with crappy bedside manners. I have seen MDs with great beside manners. I have seen adult CT DO surgeons that were just incredibly adept and excellent at their work, and I have seen this with MDs. I have seen "good" or "bad" with both MD and DO. I have seen this in nursing, psychology, RTs, RDs, you name it. Really, I think these kinds of generalizations are problematic.

It ultimately ends up being about the individual physician and how she or he chooses to practice. I will say that I have also seen the striking of a good balance between the totality of what is desirable in a physician for both DOs and MDs. Sometimes, however, I have wondered if there is a bit more sensitivity taught in DO programs; but we also have to know what the individual physician's post-graduate educational experiences were like and the kind of physicians that taught, guided, and influenced them during that time.

It goes back to what I think is one of the number one questions in the minds of the adcoms for either MD or DO programs--or at least in my mind should be.
As Goro said, "Would I want this person as my physician?" Why or why not?

Yet I also have to add that as a surgical recovery ICU nurse for both peds and adults, I will tell you that some physicians just aren't all that into the sensitivity and warm-fuzzy approach; but they excel in the OR. I mean I like warm fuzzy, b/c I am more or less like that; but I also know how to compartmentalize that quality. I mean I have to say, however, when it comes to being cut--deep surgery-- I want a highly skilled, talented, and focused surgeon, with great fine motor adeptness and spatial intelligence. This is huge to me--as well as the physician's ability to follow-up with sound post-op management. The experienced recovery CT ICU nurse, for example, sees trends in certain surgeons, in general, based not only on M & Ms, but on how hard they have to run their butts off--in general--to keep the post-op patient stable. Sure this varies with comorbidity factors, but when there are clear trends on certain kinds of patients/procedures, you get the picture. And after a while, it becomes a tug of war in taking this surgeon's patients postoperatively. And it isn't b/c the nurses are lazy. They work in surgery for a lot of the same reasons many other doctors and nurses work in the particular area, b/c, in general, they like to see good outcomes.

Sure there is the learning curve issue for surgeons, but some people are just more naturally gifted when it comes to performing careful and delicate kinds of surgeries. Would it be great if all of such surgeons were more sensitive and warm-fuzzy with their patients and the nursing and other staff as well? Absolutely. But people can be complicated.

At the end of the day, I want the most adept, careful, insightful, and skilled surgeon that I can get. And I also want a surgeon that is strong in excellent post-op management. At the end of the day, who cares if the surgeon is warm and fuzzy if he/she is just not up to snuff with that valve repair or the particular arterial switch operation. (Although, with the latter, pediatric cardiothoracic surgery, I believe, is a pretty unlikely bet for a DO. Just that it's so competitive. DO's in general won't be able to compete with the high-brow selection of allopaths applying to pediatric CT fellowships. Super tough to fight city hall sometimes.)

My point though is that it's tough and kind of unfair to make these generalizations, b/c there are a lot of factors. Also, b/c it depends on the individual, and finally, depending on what is being done, it depends on what the person on the table or the parent whose child is on the table wants/needs for their child--b/c really they want the most skilled surgeon to do the work. No these surgeons shouldn't be J.O.'s, but you have to prioritize based on what is going on IMHO.
 
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I have seen this, but overall, I must admit that it just really depends on the physician. I mean I have seen some DO's with crappy bedside manners. I have seen MDs with great beside manners. I have seen adult CT DO surgeons that were just incredibly adept and excellent at their work, and I have seen this with MDs. I have seen "good" or "bad" with both MD and DO. I have seen this in nursing, psychology, RTs, RDs, you name it. Really, I think these kinds of generalizations are problematic.

It ultimately ends up being about the individual physician and how she or he chooses to practice. I will say that I have also seen the striking of a good balance between the totality of what is desirable in a physician for both DOs and MDs. Sometimes, however, I have wondered if there is a bit more sensitivity taught in DO programs; but we also have to know what the individual physician's post-graduate educational experiences were like and the kind of physicians that taught, guided, and influenced them during that time.

It goes back to what I think is one of the number one questions in the minds of the adcoms for either MD or DO programs--or at least in my mind should be.
As Goro said, "Would I want this person as my physician?" Why or why not?

Yet I also have to add that as a surgical recovery ICU nurse for both peds and adults, I will tell you that some physicians just aren't all that into the sensitivity and warm-fuzzy approach; but they excel in the OR. I mean I like warm fuzzy, b/c I am more or less like that; but I also know how to compartmentalize that quality. I mean I have to say, however, when it comes to being cut--deep surgery-- I want a highly skilled, talented, and focused surgeon, with great fine motor adeptness and spatial intelligence. This is huge to me--as well as the physician's ability to follow-up with sound post-op management. The experienced recovery CT ICU nurse, for example, sees trends in certain surgeons, in general, based not only on M & Ms, but on how hard they have to run their butts off--in general--to keep the post-op patient stable. Sure this varies with comorbidity factors, but when there are clear trends on certain kinds of patients/procedures, you get the picture. And after a while, it becomes a tug of war in taking this surgeon's patients postoperatively. And it isn't b/c the nurses are lazy. They work in surgery for a lot of the same reasons many other doctors and nurses work in the particular area, b/c, in general, they like to see good outcomes.

Sure there is the learning curve issue for surgeons, but some people are just more naturally gifted when it comes to performing careful and delicate kinds of surgeries. Would it be great if all of such surgeons were more sensitive and warm-fuzzy with their patients and the nursing and other staff as well? Absolutely. But people can be complicated.

At the end of the day, I want the most adept, careful, insightful, and skilled surgeon that I can get. And I also want a surgeon that is strong in excellent post-op management. At the end of the day, who cares if the surgeon is warm and fuzzy if he/she is just not up to snuff with that valve repair or the particular arterial switch operation. (Although, with the latter, pediatric cardiothoracic surgery, I believe, is a pretty unlikely bet for a DO. Just that it's so competitive. DO's in general won't be able to compete with the high-brow selection of allopaths applying to pediatric CT fellowships. Super tough to fight city hall sometimes.)

My point though is that it's tough and kind of unfair to make these generalizations, b/c there are a lot of factors. Also, b/c it depends on the individual, and finally, depending on what is being done, it depends on what the person on the table or the parent whose child is on the table wants/needs for their child--b/c really they want the most skilled surgeon to do the work. No these surgeons shouldn't be J.O.'s, but you have to prioritize based on what is going on IMHO.
Damn dude you wrote a book..... I agree it really is up to the physician, but I can't help to have noticed a general difference in the DOs and MDs I have worked with.....
 
Sorry about that. Thought some detail might aid my POV. So, how many docs have you worked with over what period of time? Having worked with many docs over many years, it would be hard to say that your point is not a generalization. Plus, as I stated above, there are many factors that go into the shaping of a physician.

Anyway the other point I was trying to make was that while bedside manner is, IMO, very important, it may NOT be the most important thing--especially if you need an excellent surgeon.

Oh, I am a female. :)
 
@Goro,

I was placed on a pre-interview hold yesterday. Any suggestions on ways I can get off it?
 
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