Goro's Guide to the DO School Application Process, 2019 ed.

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Goro said:
Are you serious? I'm too old and fat for that sort of nonsense.

I was pre-med for maybe 10 mins, and thank God I lost that notion, because this is what med school would have done to me:
View attachment 277951
Click to expand...
sorry I never met you before...just curious lol
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Goro said:
Are you serious? I'm too old and fat for that sort of nonsense.

I was pre-med for maybe 10 mins, and thank God I lost that notion, because this is what med school would have done to me:
View attachment 277951
Click to expand...

Just curious. Why are you so passionate about helping medical students but not about medicine?
 
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Goro, when you talk about GPA in your original post, do you mean sGPA, cGPA, both?
 
Goro said:
That time of year!

OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's guide to the app process (2019 ed.)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 513, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 512 or less and/or a GPA of < 3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of < 504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.

Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.

o Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the table and smack you upside the head!

o To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school, or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.

o If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.

o DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.

o While there are DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT, having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.

o If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.

o To that end, if your MCAT score is <497, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.

o If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it’s going to be an uphill battle for DO grads for top residency sites, and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Derm. The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2018, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware the some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.

o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.

o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.

o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Concerning new schools, they can be problematic. Their Faculty take time to gel and deliver a good curriculum. For their first couple of years, they have lower Board scores, and higher attrition rates. Plus, PDs aren’t familiar with their grads. But keep in mind that low pass rates, Board scores and high attrition can result from Admissions policies. New schools, by the fact that they're new, are more desperate to fill seats and will accept more marginal candidates. These are the people who are more likely to fail, or take LOA. If you are good at self-learning, you can handle a new school.

Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.

Currently, there are five DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:

Nova: three of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. They're now at ~85% and on top of this, some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match. This was the second worst match rate among all the COMs (only WCU did worse). They also have yet to post their 2018 COMLEX results, even though they’ve had a full year to mull them over. This is NOT a good sign. These are all things you expect from a new school, not a veteran one. Something is very wrong there.

Wm Carey: VERY high attrition rates and only a 92% placement rate for their Class of 2018. That means 8% of their grads are now unemployed, NOT doing residency. No SOAP, no scramble, no TRI. This is simply NOT acceptable. I expect they'll be put on probation very soon.

Touro-NY: Poor COMLEX II pass rates.

LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.



LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”



This is the only COM that has this level of accreditation status right now.

osteopathic.org

Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association

Chicago, September 24, 2018–The American Osteopathic Association’s Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) today announced accreditation decisions made at its Aug. 24-26, 2018 meeting. Comprehensive site visits occur at the end of an accreditation cycle. The following...
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org
Click to expand...


Goro, any update on Nova?
 
idkmed said:
Goro, any update on Nova?
Click to expand...
If anything, they're imploding, based upon reports from current students

They've finally gotten around to updating thier website and the results for Level I pass rates have gone up, thankfully. I may have to take them off the Bad Boy list
1569943372522.png
 
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Thoughts on ARCOM?

I’ve heard from a few peers that the curriculum has been.... interesting thus far and would love to hear your opinion(s).
 
Goro said:
If anything, they're imploding, based upon reports from current students

They've finally gotten around to updating thier website and the results for Level I pass rates have gone up, thankfully. I may have to take them off the Bad Boy list
View attachment 281876
Click to expand...

Do you know how AAMCOMAS labels someone as a re-applicant? Is one labeled a re-applicant only to schools they have previously applied to or is there a universal marker that labels someone as a re-applicant to all schools regardless of where they applied last cycle? I know it can be asked in Secondaries regardless. Thanks.
 
idkmed said:
Do you know how AAMCOMAS labels someone as a re-applicant? Is one labeled a re-applicant only to schools they have previously applied to or is there a universal marker that labels someone as a re-applicant to all schools regardless of where they applied last cycle? I know it can be asked in Secondaries regardless. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I don't know.
Do keep in mind that the SDN bias against applicants is mostly hype. If you're rejected anywhere, it's not because you're a reapplicant.

IF you haven't improved your app sine the last cycle, that will hurt.
 
Goro said:
If anything, they're imploding, based upon reports from current students

They've finally gotten around to updating thier website and the results for Level I pass rates have gone up, thankfully. I may have to take them off the Bad Boy list
View attachment 281876
Click to expand...
so you would no longer advise against NOVA?
 
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What do you think about the new Sam Houston State University DO program? Just outside of Houston. I'm nervous because it's a brand new school but it's in a fantastic area. It's really new so probably not a ton of information out there but anything helps! Thanks.
 
qbohn said:
What do you think about the new Sam Houston State University DO program? Just outside of Houston. I'm nervous because it's a brand new school but it's in a fantastic area. It's really new so probably not a ton of information out there but anything helps! Thanks.
Click to expand...
It's a blank slate!
 
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What are the thoughts on MSU COM having a heightened monitoring accreditation ? Avoid like LMU DCOM?
 
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"Following a regularly scheduled accreditation review and site visit, MSUCOM was found to be compliant with 59 of 61 elements and reaccredited by the COCA through 2022. Two curricular areas were identified as requiring further documentation; these included application of osteopathic principles and interprofessional education across each year of the curriculum. In accordance with the established rubric developed by the COCA, MSUCOM was granted continuing accreditation with heightened monitoring and will submit a mid-cycle report in 2020 to document actions taken to address compliance with COCA standards."

Accreditation | MSU Osteopathic Medicine

com.msu.edu com.msu.edu

Doesn't seem like a deal breaker for me if I were to consider MSUCOM.
 
Kumorebi said:
"Following a regularly scheduled accreditation review and site visit, MSUCOM was found to be compliant with 59 of 61 elements and reaccredited by the COCA through 2022. Two curricular areas were identified as requiring further documentation; these included application of osteopathic principles and interprofessional education across each year of the curriculum. In accordance with the established rubric developed by the COCA, MSUCOM was granted continuing accreditation with heightened monitoring and will submit a mid-cycle report in 2020 to document actions taken to address compliance with COCA standards."

Accreditation | MSU Osteopathic Medicine

com.msu.edu com.msu.edu

Doesn't seem like a deal breaker for me if I were to consider MSUCOM.
Click to expand...
I read that as well. Doesn’t sound terrible but what separates this from LMU? No fear that the school could lose accreditation?
 
MSU pumps out plenty of health professions and has an MD program. I’m sure they’ll be fine.
 
MSU: Osteopathic principles and IPE. I can see why the faculty did not pay enough attention to those.
At my school every student and faculty thinks IPE is the dumbest thing. Yet it is advertised all over our website and thus half of our interviewees mention they like the school because IPE sounds interesting. We always mention it is a work in progress. Students hate it even more than OMM.
 
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ICanHelpYou said:
MSU: Osteopathic principles and IPE. I can see why the faculty did not pay enough attention to those.
At my school every student and faculty thinks IPE is the dumbest thing. Yet it is advertised all over our website and thus half of our interviewees mention they like the school because IPE sounds interesting. We always mention it is a work in progress. Students hate it even more than OMM.
Click to expand...
You sound like one of my students!

Honestly, as a faculty member, for us IPE is a waste of time because it's an accreditation mandate (meaning, it was inflicted upon us), and our institution doesn't give us the resources we need to do it really well.

I have been harping for several years now to my colleagues that it would be better done in the clinical years, when you have real live patients, not paper ones.
 
Goro said:
You sound like one of my students!

Honestly, as a faculty member, for us IPE is a waste of time because it's an accreditation mandate (meaning, it was inflicted upon us), and our institution doesn't give us the resources we need to do it really well.

I have been harping for several years now to my colleagues that it would be better done in the clinical years, when you have real live patients, not paper ones.
Click to expand...
Here, we finally revolted. Now they pay us a little extra for facilitating IPE. Agreed on it being better done in clinical years. My main issue is that it is completely revamped every year, but there is no formal assessment of success that I know off. So it is not clear to us why changes are made.
 
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Goro said:
Every Adcom member will have their own way of doing things.

I look at:
age
school attended
major
GPA
MCAT
if they have doctors in the family, especially parents
courses taken and grades, semester by semester
infractions (if any)
LORs
ECs
secondary essays
PS
Click to expand...

Is age a negative factor?
 
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You mentioned KCU in your list of schools that are listed in places that are good to go. I know that there is another campus down in Joplin, which is a lot smaller of a city than KC. Do you know anything more about the second campus? Would it be a disadvantage to go down there compared to the main campus up in KC? Any thoughts of applying to one campus or the other? Should I avoid joplin?
 
@Goro not sure if you talked about it on any other threads/posts yet but can you share your opinion on what you think about step 1 being pass/fail now and how this will impact DO students? Thanks!
 
Goro said:
That time of year!

OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's guide to the app process (2019 ed.)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 513, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 512 or less and/or a GPA of < 3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of < 504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.

Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.

o Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the table and smack you upside the head!

o To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school, or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.

o If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.

o DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.

o While there are DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT, having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.

o If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.

o To that end, if your MCAT score is <497, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.

o If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it’s going to be an uphill battle for DO grads for top residency sites, and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Derm. The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2018, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware the some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.

o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.

o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.

o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Concerning new schools, they can be problematic. Their Faculty take time to gel and deliver a good curriculum. For their first couple of years, they have lower Board scores, and higher attrition rates. Plus, PDs aren’t familiar with their grads. But keep in mind that low pass rates, Board scores and high attrition can result from Admissions policies. New schools, by the fact that they're new, are more desperate to fill seats and will accept more marginal candidates. These are the people who are more likely to fail, or take LOA. If you are good at self-learning, you can handle a new school.

Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.

Currently, there are five DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:

Nova: three of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. They're now at ~85% and on top of this, some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match. This was the second worst match rate among all the COMs (only WCU did worse). They also have yet to post their 2018 COMLEX results, even though they’ve had a full year to mull them over. This is NOT a good sign. These are all things you expect from a new school, not a veteran one. Something is very wrong there.

Wm Carey: VERY high attrition rates and only a 92% placement rate for their Class of 2018. That means 8% of their grads are now unemployed, NOT doing residency. No SOAP, no scramble, no TRI. This is simply NOT acceptable. I expect they'll be put on probation very soon.

Touro-NY: Poor COMLEX II pass rates.

LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.



LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”



This is the only COM that has this level of accreditation status right now.

osteopathic.org

Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association

Chicago, September 24, 2018–The American Osteopathic Association’s Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) today announced accreditation decisions made at its Aug. 24-26, 2018 meeting. Comprehensive site visits occur at the end of an accreditation cycle. The following...
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org
Click to expand...

@Goro, Could you please share your current thoughts on WCU? Thank you.
 
Drspongebob22 said:
@Goro, Could you please share your current thoughts on WCU? Thank you.
Click to expand...
EDIT: VERY high attrition rates, and there is no data for COMLEX pass rates for takers for 2018-19, nor 2019-20. That's TWO years of data they're hiding. I choose those words carefully.

Interestingly, they have the median score for 2018 takers, and it's a good score....but where is the info for the pass rate? And the 2019 cycle median???
 
Last edited:
Goro said:
VERY high attrition rates and only a 92% placement rate for their Class of 2018. That means 8% of their grads are now unemployed, NOT doing residency. No SOAP, no scramble, no TRI. This is simply NOT acceptable. In addition, there is no data for COMLEX pass rates for takers of 2017-18, 18-19-nor 19-20. That's THREE years of data they're hiding. I choose those words carefully.
Click to expand...
Some rates were posted on their website. Not sure if they're accurate but still below national average.

Student Achievement | William Carey University

www.wmcarey.edu www.wmcarey.edu
 
Drspongebob22 said:
Some rates were posted on their website. Not sure if they're accurate but still below national average.

Student Achievement | William Carey University

www.wmcarey.edu www.wmcarey.edu
Click to expand...
Note that they fail to mention the 18 19 and 19 to 20 test-takers? They've had 2 and 1 years respectively to get that data done and up on the website.

Failing to show this on the website says to me, actually screams to me, that they are hiding something.
 
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Goro said:
Note that they fail to mention the 18 19 and 19 to 20 test-takers? They've had 2 and 1 years respectively to get that data done and up on the website.

Failing to show this on the website says to me, actually screams to me, that they are hiding something.
Click to expand...

Is this for COMLEX Level 3 Pass Rates?
 
Hey Goro,

I am wondering if you have any advice about convincing schools you are authentic/committed to actually attending a DO school if you have above-average stats (LM69-70) and have not shadowed a DO — I had plans to shadow two but COVID got in the way :/. (Zoom shadowing? lol)

Tho I am also applying MD, there are several DO schools on my list I would attend over many of the MD schools on my list. I do not want to sound like I am just re-phrasing the DO Wikipedia page, but my experience is basically that, day in the life videos, and what some MDs have told me about Osteopathic Mecdicine.
 
ScrubswithnoSleeves said:
Hey Goro,

I am wondering if you have any advice about convincing schools you are authentic/committed to actually attending a DO school if you have above-average stats (LM69-70) and have not shadowed a DO — I had plans to shadow two but COVID got in the way :/. (Zoom shadowing? lol)

Tho I am also applying MD, there are several DO schools on my list I would attend over many of the MD schools on my list. I do not want to sound like I am just re-phrasing the DO Wikipedia page, but my experience is basically that, day in the life videos, and what some MDs have told me about Osteopathic Mecdicine.
Click to expand...
1) Shadow a DO.
Get LOR from same
2) know more about the profession than what you can vomit up from Wiki
3) Research the schools you apply to intensively
4) "learning about DOs from MDs is like learning about sex from priests" Dr KC, DO, retired.
You have to do better than that. Try getting a scribing job.
 
Goro said:
Nope. Level I first time pass rates:
View attachment 310161

Now, interestingly, they have the median score for 2018 takers, and it's a good score....but where is the info for the pass rate? And the 2019 cycle median???
View attachment 310162
Click to expand...
Current 3rd year at WCUCOM, unfortunately the school isn’t very good about updating that site, but I do know that the class of 2021 which would be the 2019-2020 cohort had a first time pass rate of 98%. This info is verified straight from the dean, not entirely sure about the average comlex level 1 but I have heard that it was above the national average, class of 2021 also had above average scores on the Comsae and the combank assessments, it’s been the best class that Carey has had. My class was pretty close to those parameters as well in comparison and we will see what our level 1 first time pass rate is..
 
Last edited:
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Current 3rd year at WCUCOM, unfortunately the school isn’t very good about updating that site, but I do know that the class of 2021 which would be the 2019-2020 cohort had a first time pass rate of 98%. This info is verified straight from the dean, not entirely sure about the average comlex level 1 but I have heard that it was above the national average, class of 2021 also had above average scores on the Comsae and the combank assessments, it’s been the best class that Carey has had. My class was pretty close to those parameters as well in comparison and we will see what our level 1 first time pass rate is..
Click to expand...
It's not that hard to update a website, you know.
 
Goro said:
1) Shadow a DO.
Get LOR from same
2) know more about the profession than what you can vomit up from Wiki
3) Research the schools you apply to intensively
4) "learning about DOs from MDs is like learning about sex from priests" Dr KC, DO, retired.
You have to do better than that. Try getting a scribing job.
Click to expand...

Lol, #4 duly noted. My problem is that I have already submitted my application this cycle and already have secondaries coming in. Also, I live on the west coast so DOs are few and far between out here.

How hard of a hit is it that an applicant has not shadowed a DO?
 
ScrubswithnoSleeves said:
Lol, #4 duly noted. My problem is that I have already submitted my application this cycle and already have secondaries coming in. Also, I live on the west coast so DOs are few and far between out here.

How hard of a hit is it that an applicant has not shadowed a DO?
Click to expand...
It won't hurt you not to have done so, But it will always help you to have Shadowed a DO.
 
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Goro said:
It's not that hard to update a website, you know.
Click to expand...
Please DM the administration at my school... maybe COCA will get on them and they will do it soon. Carey is very weird about posting stuff on their site, even when the numbers are good, like our match list from the past few years or the first time match % based on what the Dean and the administration tells us, they just don't care to put it on their site...
 
May i also ask for the general opinion on UNECOM and RowanSOM? I don't see them on the recommended or not recommended list
 
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