Goro's guide to the DO school app process

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serenade said:
Channeling Goro... Connecting... Connecting.... Connected.

Goro: plenty of my students match EM and the field is open to DO students who work hard enough.
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thanks Goro 2.0
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Plenty of DOs go into ER. Just check out some match lists.

As an aside, I remember meeting a grad of PCOM when I had to take my then 3 year son to the ER when he woke up at 3AM screaming with an earache. The guy was great.

I know this has been debated over and over again, but I just want to be assured that osteopathic physicians have a good chance at getting EM residencies (not as many hoops to jump through as say an orthopedic residency) . I know the whole spiel that you can go into any residency and what not.


That will be fine.
Thanks for the post Goro. I'm still looking for DO's to shadow but a lot of them are busy this summer. I have worked with DO's while I was a scribe in the ER though. Do you think that will be alright or should I continue my search? I've contacted at least 10 around my area by phone and have been turned down by all. Maybe I should change my approach.
 
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Regarding shadowing: It may be beneficial to research a D.O. in the area and schedule an appointment for your annual physical or OB/GYN visit. Discuss your interest in medicine and simply ask to shadow them. Most will be more than happy to contribute to a patient's application. It worked for me on two separate occasions.

After shadowing, you may also want to ask the physician for contacts in a particular specialty. As mentioned previously, it really helps to make connections.
 
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Goro,

Thank you very much for the superhelpful tips.
I wanted to ask you a question, you said that we should talk about our OMM experience if we had one. Where should we put this aside from the PS? Especially if it will sound out of context in our PS.

BTW, I am also having difficulty finding a physician to shadow. The one I found is hosting a seminar but charging $99 just to hear him speak. Not sure what to do about that. I may have to drive up to CCOM on Monday.
 
It's fine to put it in your secondary. PS is more for "Who are you?" and "Why Medicine?"


Thank you very much for the superhelpful tips.
I wanted to ask you a question, you said that we should talk about our OMM experience if we had one. Where should we put this aside from the PS? Especially if it will sound out of context in our PS.

BTW, I am also having difficulty finding a physician to shadow. The one I found is hosting a seminar but charging $99 just to hear him speak. Not sure what to do about that. I may have to drive up to CCOM on Monday.[/QUOTE]
 
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Goro said:
It can be either, or both. Most schools will ask "why DO"? on the secondary, so it's sometimes more appropriate there.
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Thats where im putting it.
 
Lol, most DO students want to go into EM. And each DO school has a good number of students that match into it every year. I'm interested in it as well... but the salary compensation might not be worth those long graveyard shifts and inevitable burnout :( .
 
Chillywilly said:
Lol, most DO students want to go into EM. And each DO school has a good number of students that match into it every year. I'm interested in it as well... but the salary compensation might not be worth those long graveyard shifts and inevitable burnout :( .
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You'd be surprised...look at locum tenens work....theres a lot of ER positions available to be filled that pay $200/hr. Plus it's an easy field to travel to different locations with, if that's your thing.
 
Thanks for the guide Goro! I had one question, I have a few science classes I want to retake. I graduated with B.S. Biological Sciences at a University. Would it hurt me if I retook the same classes at a good community college?
 
@Goro, secondary essay responses vs the personal statement? Which one makes the bigger influence and impacts your decision more to invite the applicant for an interview?
 
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Sorry for the very late reply...only just noticed these.

CC coursework will be fine.
Thanks for the guide Goro! I had one question, I have a few science classes I want to retake. I graduated with B.S. Biological Sciences at a University. Would it hurt me if I retook the same classes at a good community college?

This is the realm of our wily old Admissions Dean. Our Adcom only interviews and makes decisions to accept/wait-list or reject.

Well written secondaries, especially those pertaining to Osteopathy, can rescue candidates we have doubts on (especially for the DOs on the AdCom). Well-written PS's do impress members of the AdCom and many mention these in their reasons to accept someone.

secondary essay responses vs the personal statement? Which one makes the bigger influence and impacts your decision more to invite the applicant for an interview?
 
Hi @Goro,

Maybe my search skills aren't good enough, but I couldn't find anything on threads about where to put shadowing for AACOMAS. Do we have to include shadowing? If so, where does it go and what information should be included?

I live in Maryland and I have been contacting tons of DOs and still unable to find anyone that wants to let me shadow. I work in a hospital and still have had no luck with the doctors here either :( I'm one of those students who doesn't care if I go MD or DO, as in I'd be happy with either one. If I got a DO acceptance at a good school vs an MD acceptance at a so-so school, I'd go DO. But being that I can't find a DO to shadow, I'm wondering if it'll hurt my chances. I don't want my options limited.
 
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You do need to show that you've shadowed, and most schools (including mine) are OK with you shadowing an MD, and having LOR from same.

I know it's a hike, but you could drive up to PCOM and chat up the DO faculty there.

I'm not familiar with the logistics of form-filling for AACOMAS. Best to make a post on the pre-Osteo forum. Good luck!



LilEngineThatCould said:
Hi @Goro,

Maybe my search skills aren't good enough, but I couldn't find anything on threads about where to put shadowing for AACOMAS. Do we have to include shadowing? If so, where does it go and what information should be included?

I live in Maryland and I have been contacting tons of DOs and still unable to find anyone that wants to let me shadow. I work in a hospital and still have had no luck with the doctors here either :( I'm one of those students who doesn't care if I go MD or DO, as in I'd be happy with either one. If I got a DO acceptance at a good school vs an MD acceptance at a so-so school, I'd go DO. But being that I can't find a DO to shadow, I'm wondering if it'll hurt my chances. I don't want my options limited.
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Goro said:
You do need to show that you've shadowed, and most schools (including mine) are OK with you shadowing an MD, and having LOR from same.

I know it's a hike, but you could drive up to PCOM and chat up the DO faculty there.

I'm not familiar with the logistics of form-filling for AACOMAS. Best to make a post on the pre-Osteo forum. Good luck!
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I may have to make that drive lol it should only be about 3-4 hours. Thank you!
 
LilEngineThatCould said:
Hi @Goro,

Maybe my search skills aren't good enough, but I couldn't find anything on threads about where to put shadowing for AACOMAS. Do we have to include shadowing? If so, where does it go and what information should be included?

I live in Maryland and I have been contacting tons of DOs and still unable to find anyone that wants to let me shadow. I work in a hospital and still have had no luck with the doctors here either :( I'm one of those students who doesn't care if I go MD or DO, as in I'd be happy with either one. If I got a DO acceptance at a good school vs an MD acceptance at a so-so school, I'd go DO. But being that I can't find a DO to shadow, I'm wondering if it'll hurt my chances. I don't want my options limited.
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Put shadowing on extracurricular tab
 
LilEngineThatCould said:
Oh thank you!
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What part of Maryland are you in? There are a TON of DOs at University of Maryland/Baltimore-Shock Trauma. I mean a ton. A lot probably has to do with observational selection bias on my behalf, but I've seen them in the trauma bay, CCU, CCRU, and MSTICU.

On the west end of the state, I've come across a couple in the ERs at Frederick Memorial and Western Maryland Medical Center as well. If you're closer to Allentown, PA then try there (President of ACEP is a DO and Sr Vice Chair of EM there).

Inova Fairfax has a bunch, mostly residents though. One ER attending, two surgical residents, and one peds resident off the top of my head. They're out there...you're best bet is to use one of your connections to put you in touch with one.
 
RoadNurse33 said:
What part of Maryland are you in? There are a TON of DOs at University of Maryland/Baltimore-Shock Trauma. I mean a ton. A lot probably has to do with observational selection bias on my behalf, but I've seen them in the trauma bay, CCU, CCRU, and MSTICU.

On the west end of the state, I've come across a couple in the ERs at Frederick Memorial and Western Maryland Medical Center as well. If you're closer to Allentown, PA then try there (President of ACEP is a DO and Sr Vice Chair of EM there).

Inova Fairfax has a bunch, mostly residents though. One ER attending, two surgical residents, and one peds resident off the top of my head. They're out there...you're best bet is to use one of your connections to put you in touch with one.
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Yea I'm gonna talk to the MD I shadowed. I've just had a hard time with cold calling, I know they're out there, there's a bunch at my hospital (near UMD Baltimore) but I've tried contacting a bunch and gotten nothing. Plus idk if it'd be too rushed because I plan on turning in my app in September. I don't think a letter from someone I shadowed only a little would be good...
 
RoadNurse33 said:
What part of Maryland are you in? There are a TON of DOs at University of Maryland/Baltimore-Shock Trauma. I mean a ton. A lot probably has to do with observational selection bias on my behalf, but I've seen them in the trauma bay, CCU, CCRU, and MSTICU.

On the west end of the state, I've come across a couple in the ERs at Frederick Memorial and Western Maryland Medical Center as well. If you're closer to Allentown, PA then try there (President of ACEP is a DO and Sr Vice Chair of EM there).

Inova Fairfax has a bunch, mostly residents though. One ER attending, two surgical residents, and one peds resident off the top of my head. They're out there...you're best bet is to use one of your connections to put you in touch with one.
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shut the front door... I am originally from Frederick. Born at FMH. I would agree that there are DOs there. Really solid EM physician there who is a DO, he was also on the board of directors for the entire hospital for a while.
 
Make sure you can palpate someone's soul. It's how you summon the natural healing power of A.T. Still to form the deepest doctor-patient relationship. The maneuver, which is rarely taught, and reserved generally for the illuminati, is called the neuraxial spiritual release. If the interviewers ask you about it, demonstrate it with your holy hands to secure yourself an admission.

good luck.
 
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LilEngineThatCould said:
Hi @Goro,

Maybe my search skills aren't good enough, but I couldn't find anything on threads about where to put shadowing for AACOMAS. Do we have to include shadowing? If so, where does it go and what information should be included?

I live in Maryland and I have been contacting tons of DOs and still unable to find anyone that wants to let me shadow. I work in a hospital and still have had no luck with the doctors here either :( I'm one of those students who doesn't care if I go MD or DO, as in I'd be happy with either one. If I got a DO acceptance at a good school vs an MD acceptance at a so-so school, I'd go DO. But being that I can't find a DO to shadow, I'm wondering if it'll hurt my chances. I don't want my options limited.
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I am from there too have you tried GBMC or the imentor program online?
 
How do you feel about "Thank You" emails post-interview?
 
jjtheairplane said:
How do you feel about "Thank You" emails post-interview?
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I wrote a card with my own hand and sent it in. It worked for me.

In "The Last Lecture" by Randy Pausch, he gives an anecdote of an applicant when he was on some kind of admissions committee. He said this particular applicant, who wasn't the greatest student especially relative to the caliber of other applicants, stood out to him such that he supported her acceptance because she sent a hand-written thank you card to him and the others on the ad-com. He was impressed by that, because so few people take the time to do that anymore.
 
Hello,

@Goro when writing secondary's, is it safe to assume that an adcom read and remembered my primary? For example, if I mention organization ABC in my primary and I detailed what I did with them. Is it safe to mention the organization or part of what I did in a secondary essay without going into too much detail.

Thank you in advance
 
Your primaries and secondaries are bundled together...we see both at the same time.

IamZee said:
Hello,

@Goro when writing secondary's, is it safe to assume that an adcom read and remembered my primary? For example, if I mention organization ABC in my primary and I detailed what I did with them. Is it safe to mention the organization or part of what I did in a secondary essay without going into too much detail.

Thank you in advance
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@Goro I think I read something about your interview guide being posted soon. When will the interview guide be posted? I'm very interested to read it!
 
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Goro said:
I respond to them promptly and politely. A perversity of mine is that I throw away written thank you notes!
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as if this entire process wasn't complicated enough haha....

We got some people interviewing us who love hand written notes and some who throw them away. What's a guy to do? Heh
 
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Awesome Sauceome said:
as if this entire process wasn't complicated enough haha....

We got some people interviewing us who love hand written notes and some who throw them away. What's a guy to do? Heh
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send both and then look like you forgot that you sent the other one or that you are really desperate. lose lose situation lol.

tough call to make honestly. you want to send one to hopefully stand out, but if they are going to ignore one or the other then you are stuck guessing which one they want. i would say that hand-written has the potential to stand out more so it's still a 50/50 chance, but the hand-written has the opportunity to be better IMO
 
There done so commonly as to dilute any potential benefit that the writers may perceive beyond merely being polite.

baxt1412 said:
send both and then look like you forgot that you sent the other one or that you are really desperate. lose lose situation lol.

tough call to make honestly. you want to send one to hopefully stand out, but if they are going to ignore one or the other then you are stuck guessing which one they want. i would say that hand-written has the potential to stand out more so it's still a 50/50 chance, but the hand-written has the opportunity to be better IMO
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Goro said:
There done so commonly as to dilute any potential benefit that the writers may perceive beyond merely being polite.
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This is kind of what I thought as well. How many of these letters are being written because the student genuinely appreciates the time and consideration of the committee members enough to merit a handwritten, physical card, and not just trying to get the committee to remember them?
This is not to be critical of anyone who writes thank you notes. Some people write thank you notes for lots of occasions, and this is normal etiquette for them. It isn't for me, and I feel it too personal of a gesture to expend in this situation.
 
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I really appreciate your making this thread, goro! :) Thank you!
 
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Goro said:
Don't know. But it would not surprise me.


Well, not all residency directors accepted COMLEX, so DO students had to take USMLE, which is a totally different animal than COMLEX. nationwide, DO student underperform on USMLE I, but the good one manage to catch up on Step II. Second, there are some residency directors, especially more in the higher competitive residencies, that simply refuse to take DO grads, period. The merger will eliminate that prejudice.
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From my understanding the COMLEX includes OMM on it, so I highly doubt that allopathic schools will ever adopt it. Also, as far as the mergers go I don't think that it will make for much of a change. DO residencies have the option to keep out allopathic residents if I remember from reading the agreement. It seems like a formality since over half of DO grads do MD residencies.
 
Would an MD school adopt COMLEX? Of course not. But many RDs already do, and so the reluctance against it among the others will, I suspect, have to pass.

From my understanding the COMLEX includes OMM on it, so I highly doubt that allopathic schools will ever adopt it. Also, as far as the mergers go I don't think that it will make for much of a change. DO residencies have the option to keep out allopathic residents if I remember from reading the agreement. It seems like a formality since over half of DO grads do MD residencies.
 
True, I just wish that allopathic and osteopathic schools would come together to make a test. The fact that DOs essentially need to take the USMLE and COMLEX seems like overkill. And as you mentioned, USMLE Step 1 scores for DOs tend to be lower. It could be due to the overextension of taking both tests. Unfortunately, those Step 1 scores are a huge part of getting into allopathic residencies :( currently. I sure hope you are right about allopathic RDs accepting the COMLEX in the future.
 
Hombre de Vitruvio said:
True, I just wish that allopathic and osteopathic schools would come together to make a test. The fact that DOs essentially need to take the USMLE and COMLEX seems like overkill. And as you mentioned, USMLE Step 1 scores for DOs tend to be lower. It could be due to the overextension of taking both tests. Unfortunately, those Step 1 scores are a huge part of getting into allopathic residencies :( currently. I sure hope you are right about allopathic RDs accepting the COMLEX in the future.
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Well just think about the situation. COMLEX is part of the osteopathic leadership's commitment to keep DO "values" separate and distinct from MD "values." Certainly a collaboration test with OMM removed would make the most sense pragmatically, but it will not be removed and MD schools will not adopt any part of the OMM curriculum. So, realistically, they will continue to have different tests until DO "values" are surrendered or the COMLEX is made a short supplementary test for those applying to DO residencies. I think the latter is more likely, but the chances of it happening in the first place are unlikely overall (at least at this point in time).

If you ask me I think DO should continue to differentiate itself with its curriculum but also teach to the same standardized material as MD schools do. Regardless, the distinction between DO and MD is becoming an increasingly complex topic, and the more integration we see the more people will start asking "Why is DO still a separate path?" While ideological points will always remain, with each tangible difference (i.e. standardized testing, OMM courses, etc.) removed without an alternative option, you have to imagine it becomes harder and harder to justify.

As a fun bit of unrelated history, in the 1960s California issued M.D. degrees to all willing D.O. physicians for $65 and the AMA re-accredited the University of California at Irvine College of Osteopathic Medicine as University of California, Irvine School of Medicine. Licensing of DOs wasn't continued until 1974. It's interesting to think about if the osteopathic leadership starts surrendering core DO "values" in the future for the sake of further integration... Don't count on it though.
 
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Thanks @Goro this should definitely be a sticky :D

Just wondering what you look for when reading a persons LOR? What makes a strong letter?
 
"I'd like this person to be my doctor"
"Went well above and beyond what was needed for doing well in my course"
"Great team player"
"Self starter; independent"
"Other people looked up to him/her"


CanadianHopefully said:
Thanks @Goro this should definitely be a sticky :D

Just wondering what you look for when reading a persons LOR? What makes a strong letter?
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Thanks @Goro!

Are those things you actually consider or dose everyone say that about the the applicate, you just see through it?
 
These tend to be uncommon statements. Most are of the ilk like: "I high recommend Joe Smith. He was my student, and finished 4th out of 129 students in my rigorous ___ course. I think he will make a fine doctor."

CanadianHopefully said:
Thanks @Goro!

Are those things you actually consider or dose everyone say that about the the applicate, you just see through it?
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lol haha yah i see the difference thanks so much

Slightly off topic question, but what are your thoughts about Canadians attending USDOs and then practicing in Canada? Not sure if you've been following the news but i've been reading a few different things. People saying its very difficult and pretty much impossible now.
 
CanadianHopefully said:
lol haha yah i see the difference thanks so much

Slightly off topic question, but what are your thoughts about Canadians attending USDOs and then practicing in Canada? Not sure if you've been following the news but i've been reading a few different things. People saying its very difficult and pretty much impossible now.
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I heard residency might be difficult to obtain but you can practice.
 
yah ive been reading getting residency in the us is easier but there are still vise issues. it still easier than residency in canada. I am thinking if you do residency in the us then got to Canada if thats the easiest
 
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