Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

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Doc2Be93 said:
Hi Goro, I was just wondering what I should do in case this cycle doesn't work in my favor. I have a 2.4 sgpa and a 2.6 cgpa. I graduated in 2015 and my last 30 pb credits are a 3.9. What should my next steps be? More postbacc? Apply to an SMP? TIA.
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I suggest a SMP if this cycle is a shutout.
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Just stopping by to give @Goro some appreciation. Never posted much but read everything and laid out a plan for myself in 2017 with a cgpa 2.4 and sgpa 2.0 with over 120 credits. Hell of a hill to climb but 96 credits later at a 4.0 (finished a bachelors in resp therapy and post bacc as outlined in reinvention guide) I got to a cgpa 3.08 and sgpa 3.12. Received my mcat score today of 514. I followed your suggestions to a T. Have about 10,000 hrs working as an RRT and have 3 publications from about a year of research and I’ll be applying in the 2024 cycle. Thank you so much, it means the world to me
 
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wgc0956 said:
Just stopping by to give @Goro some appreciation. Never posted much but read everything and laid out a plan for myself in 2017 with a cgpa 2.4 and sgpa 2.0 with over 120 credits. Hell of a hill to climb but 96 credits later at a 4.0 (finished a bachelors in resp therapy and post bacc as outlined in reinvention guide) I got to a cgpa 3.08 and sgpa 3.12. Received my mcat score today of 514. I followed your suggestions to a T. Have about 10,000 hrs working as an RRT and have 3 publications from about a year of research and I’ll be applying in the 2024 cycle. Thank you so much, it means the world to me
Click to expand...
Let me know when you need a svhool list!
 
Goro said:
The answer is yes!

See if you can retroactively withdraw from any bad grade courses in your UG. Contact your school's registrar to find out if you can. This is a thing at some schools.

Does your SMP have linkage to a med school?
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is it possible to retroactively withdraw, even if I had taken the course 10+ years ago?
 
@Goro Was wondering if I could get some school recommendations from you with where I stand now based on MCAT and GPA.
MCAT: 513 (126/131/128/128)
cgpa: 3.3
sgpa: 3.1
postbacc gpa: 4.0 (20 credits)
 
purplepuppy391 said:
@Goro Was wondering if I could get some school recommendations from you with where I stand now based on MCAT and GPA.
MCAT: 513 (126/131/128/128)
cgpa: 3.3
sgpa: 3.1
postbacc gpa: 4.0 (20 credits)
Click to expand...
You might be helped by taking another 10ish credits.
I suggest:
EVMS
Jefferson
U VM
Miami
Drexel
Albany
Tufts
NYMC
TCU/UNT
Your state schools
Rush
Loyola
Rosy Franklin
Tulane
Wake
MCW
SLU
Creighton
Wayne State
Netter
NovaMD
NYU.LI
NOTE: as a reinventor, you need DO schools on your list. Any DO school. Include UNECOM if you’re from the NE, OSUCOM if you’re from the Plains states and PacNW if you’re from that region. I can't recommend LMU, ARCOM, SOMA, RVU, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. Avoid those new schools that haven't graduated a class yet, if possible.
 
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Goro said:
You might be helped by taking another 10ish credits.
I suggest:
EVMS
Jefferson
U VM
Miami
Drexel
Albany
Tufts
NYMC
TCU/UNT
Your state schools
Rush
Loyola
Rosy Franklin
Tulane
Wake
MCW
SLU
Creighton
Wayne State
Netter
NovaMD
NYU.LI
NOTE: as a reinventor, you need DO schools on your list. Any DO school. Include UNECOM if you’re from the NE, OSUCOM if you’re from the Plains states and PacNW if you’re from that region. I can't recommend LMU, ARCOM, SOMA, RVU, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. Avoid those new schools that haven't graduated a class yet, if possible.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I am planning on accruing a minimum of 10 more credits before I apply. Would your school list changed with those credits? Also I wanted to clarify my GPA. The numbers I gave for my cgpa and sgpa didn't include my postbacc courses. With the 4.0 in my postbacc so far my cgpa is 3.4 and sgpa is 3.34. Does that change anything?
 
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purplepuppy391 said:
Thank you! I am planning on accruing a minimum of 10 more credits before I apply. Would your school list changed with those credits?
Click to expand...
Nope
purplepuppy391 said:
Also I wanted to clarify my GPA. The numbers I gave for my cgpa and sgpa didn't include my postbacc courses. With the 4.0 in my postbacc so far my cgpa is 3.4 and sgpa is 3.34. Does that change anything?
Click to expand...
Nope
 
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Goro said:
Nope

Nope
Click to expand...
Goro said:
You might be helped by taking another 10ish credits.
I suggest:
EVMS
Jefferson
U VM
Miami
Drexel
Albany
Tufts
NYMC
TCU/UNT
Your state schools
Rush
Loyola
Rosy Franklin
Tulane
Wake
MCW
SLU
Creighton
Wayne State
Netter
NovaMD
NYU.LI
NOTE: as a reinventor, you need DO schools on your list. Any DO school. Include UNECOM if you’re from the NE, OSUCOM if you’re from the Plains states and PacNW if you’re from that region. I can't recommend LMU, ARCOM, SOMA, RVU, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. Avoid those new schools that haven't graduated a class yet, if possible.
Click to expand...
Thoughts on adding USC-Keck and Dartmouth Geisel? They both say that they look at postbacc gpa and my MCAT isn't below their 10th percentile. Their median MCATs are 516 and 517 respectively.
 
Goro said:
Let me ponder that
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks! Also for schools that say that they will consider your post-bacc GPA if you have a lower undergraduate GPA, does that mean they only look at your postbacc GPA as long as you meet some minimum? Or do you still go by the combined gpa?
 
Goro said:
What do you think it means?
Click to expand...
I'm assuming it means literally that, but I've gotten mixed opinions in regards to my school list for schools that reward reinvention. That I should go off of 513 3.4/3.3 and not 513 4.0.
 
purplepuppy391 said:
Thoughts on adding USC-Keck and Dartmouth Geisel? They both say that they look at postbacc gpa and my MCAT isn't below their 10th percentile. Their median MCATs are 516 and 517 respectively.
Click to expand...
Dartmouth: go for it
Keck: No. Only 4% of matriculants have post-bac work, and only 8% have a graduate degree. Compare that to Dartmouth, which is already known to take reinventors, and 18% of the Class has post-bac work, while 10% have a grad degree.

Reinvention is more than just an MCAT score.

EDIT: definitely add Temple to the list!
 
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@Goro I was hoping for some advice.

My stats are cGPA 3.4, sgpa 3.25 AAMC, 3.35 AACOMAS, MCAT 504, CA ORM.

I applied this cycle to MD and DO but I do want to prepare for the future. The MCAT retake is a must, but I was not sure if I should also consider a post bacc, a smp, or a masters (would be in bioinformatics, a subject I'm passionate about)? If I do a postbacc does it matter if I do it at a CC vs CSU vs UC? In terms of budget, cc would save a lot. The issue with the UC classes is that they are online classes via their extension, getting in-person classes is challenging given Im full-time + not a student. I would greatly appreciate your suggestion. Thanks.
 
ritz87 said:
@Goro I was hoping for some advice.

My stats are cGPA 3.4, sgpa 3.25 AAMC, 3.35 AACOMAS, MCAT 504, CA ORM.

I applied this cycle to MD and DO but I do want to prepare for the future. The MCAT retake is a must, but I was not sure if I should also consider a post bacc, a smp, or a masters (would be in bioinformatics, a subject I'm passionate about)? If I do a postbacc does it matter if I do it at a CC vs CSU vs UC? In terms of budget, cc would save a lot. The issue with the UC classes is that they are online classes via their extension, getting in-person classes is challenging given Im full-time + not a student. I would greatly appreciate your suggestion. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Your current statsvare lethal for MD.
An MS in Biostats will do nothing for an app to MD schools
You need an SMP or a DIY postbac.
Avoid online classes
Going part time to a CC is OK, but a four year school would be better.

You're fine right now for nearly all DO schools
 
Goro said:
Your current statsvare lethal for MD.
An MS in Biostats will do nothing for an app to MD schools
You need an SMP or a DIY postbac.
Avoid online classes
Going part time to a CC is OK, but a four year school would be better.

You're fine right now for nearly all DO schools
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honest reply. Does a post bacc vs smp matter? Both would be a yearish from my understanding. Would you suggest attempting a post bacc and if I dont ace it resort to a smp? I know smps are do or die but am I in a position where I should?
 
ritz87 said:
Thank you for your honest reply. Does a post bacc vs smp matter? Both would be a yearish from my understanding. Would you suggest attempting a post bacc and if I dont ace it resort to a smp? I know smps are do or die but am I in a position where I should?
Click to expand...
I prefer smps as they are high risk but High reward. However you might want to try a semester of a post back to see if your academic skills are still there. If they're not then it's time for Plan B. If they are continue and you might not need the special Masters program after all.
 
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@Goro I guess im looking for reassurance and planning

My yearly stats are as follows:
Freshman + Highschool transfer credits - 2.15 cgpa / 2.0 sgpa (35/42 science credits)
Sophomore - 3.24 cgpa / 2.65 sgpa (14/30 science credits)
Junior - 2.75 cgpa / 2.0 sgpa (11/32 science credits)
Senior - 3.88 cgpa / 3.65 (6/31 science credits)
Post-bacc 4.0/4.0 (21/21 science credits)

Total's: 3.07 cgpa 2.7 sgpa
Mcat 517
i'm currently working on withdrawing classes/taking more that would bring me up to 3.27 cgpa 3.0 sgpa.

any advice helps!
 
Funkey said:
@Goro I guess im looking for reassurance and planning

My yearly stats are as follows:
Freshman + Highschool transfer credits - 2.15 cgpa / 2.0 sgpa (35/42 science credits)
Sophomore - 3.24 cgpa / 2.65 sgpa (14/30 science credits)
Junior - 2.75 cgpa / 2.0 sgpa (11/32 science credits)
Senior - 3.88 cgpa / 3.65 (6/31 science credits)
Post-bacc 4.0/4.0 (21/21 science credits)

Total's: 3.07 cgpa 2.7 sgpa
Mcat 517
i'm currently working on withdrawing classes/taking more that would bring me up to 3.27 cgpa 3.0 sgpa.

any advice helps!
Click to expand...
Looking good!!
 
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Goro said:
I prefer smps as they are high risk but High reward. However you might want to try a semester of a post back to see if your academic skills are still there. If they're not then it's time for Plan B. If they are continue and you might not need the special Masters program after all.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your help!
 
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Hello, this thread is very much appreciated and has served as a roadmap for me. If you could be so kind as to give me some input that would be wonderful. I will try to give you a brief picture of myself as an applicant.

Non-trad with very strong extracurriculars (former pro athlete, coach local kids)

Solid research. I’m a full time employee of the school of medicine at the university I attend. I work for a few PIs who are MDs. By the time I apply, I will have roughly 12 pubs in an area I am passionate about and can speak about in great depth. I will also have 3-4 very strong LORs from these MDs. This research position gives me a lot of clinical experience and by the time I apply, my clinical hours will be over 5,000.

I will apply with roughly cGPA of 3.6 and sGPA>3.8

I have not yet taken the MCAT.

Here is the thing: I came to the realization that I want to do this late. I was a 26 year old college junior. I’ve had my academic struggles and they are reflected in the context of 12 withdrawals spread out over years. The explanation of those withdrawals is simply that I didn’t take school seriously and I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. I started taking part time classes when I was 20 and dabbled in the occasional class here and there, many of which i withdrew from. I didn’t know what college was really for until I had already racked up a lot of withdrawals. I have a strong upward trend though. I got it together and am making it through the last 2.5 years of my degree + prerequisites with great grades and no withdrawals. Part of the key was not overloading myself, too. I set a boundary of not taking more than 9 credit hours per semester.

My question is simply this: are those twelve withdrawals a killer? When I look at my application as a whole as it stands, I think I have some strong points but the withdrawals lurk and bring me a great deal of stress and anxiety. I have confided this in my mentor and he offered some reassurance and also told me I need to do great on the MCAT.

Thank you very much for your time.
 
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Thank you for the feedback. Withdrawals have always felt like a nebulous topic and a bit of an anchor for me.
 
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Hey, @Goro
First I would like to say thank you for creating this thread, my brother in law referred this thread to me and i've been combing over it and formulating a game plan. My current strategy is entering a post bacc pre med program and a six month study period for the MCAT. I start my program this January.


Current cGPA as of completing undergrad 2.88
Current sGPA 2.50 (without psych) 2.79 (with psych)
(B for Gen Chem 1, C for Gen Bio 1, A- for psych)
The program I am entering is a roughly 18-24 month (I work full time at a hospital with four day work week soon to be three day) course that will take me through: Bio 1 and 2, Gen Chem 1 and 2, Org Chem 1 and 2, Biochem 1, Gen Physics 1


Should I take/retake all the sciences including the ones I already took? The program is being funded from the tuition reimbursement at my job and would not cost me anything to add or take additional classes
 
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Koltrimac423 said:
Hey, @Goro
First I would like to say thank you for creating this thread, my brother in law referred this thread to me and i've been combing over it and formulating a game plan. My current strategy is entering a post bacc pre med program and a six month study period for the MCAT. I start my program this January.


Current cGPA as of completing undergrad 2.88
Current sGPA 2.50 (without psych) 2.79 (with psych)
(B for Gen Chem 1, C for Gen Bio 1, A- for psych)
The program I am entering is a roughly 18-24 month (I work full time at a hospital with four day work week soon to be three day) course that will take me through: Bio 1 and 2, Gen Chem 1 and 2, Org Chem 1 and 2, Biochem 1, Gen Physics 1


Should I take/retake all the sciences including the ones I already took? The program is being funded from the tuition reimbursement at my job and would not cost me anything to add or take additional classes
Click to expand...
No need for retakes.
 
@Goro

How exactly is reinvention defined for the purpose of applying to the schools you suggested elsewhere on this thread - will they expect to see a post-bacc necessarily? I had a very poor start of undergrad, but in my last 2 years I took the majority of the classes suggested at the start of the thread and got pretty much all A's and A-'s (3.9-4.0 cGPA every term over these couple years). I was able to raise my cgpa above a 3.7 and so I won't be doing a post-bacc. My MCAT score is in range with all of the T20s suggested on this thread, and my GPA is a bit above the 10th percentile for several T20s (rewarding re-invention or not).

Are these schools known to look at upward trends in junior/senior year, or are these more so schools that focus on the post-bacc GPA? Thanks!
 
jesuisbacke said:
@Goro

How exactly is reinvention defined for the purpose of applying to the schools you suggested elsewhere on this thread - will they expect to see a post-bacc necessarily? I had a very poor start of undergrad, but in my last 2 years I took the majority of the classes suggested at the start of the thread and got pretty much all A's and A-'s (3.9-4.0 cGPA every term over these couple years). I was able to raise my cgpa above a 3.7 and so I won't be doing a post-bacc. My MCAT score is in range with all of the T20s suggested on this thread, and my GPA is a bit above the 10th percentile for several T20s (rewarding re-invention or not).

Are these schools known to look at upward trends in junior/senior year, or are these more so schools that focus on the post-bacc GPA? Thanks!
Click to expand...
You can get a sense of what those schools value by looking in MSAR at the percentage of the M1 class who did post-bacs and/or have a graduate degree.

Two solid years of undergrad like you have isn't going to get you into Harvard or stanford, but case, Duke, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Boston, and Columbia might show interest in you
 
Just want to show appreciation for @Goro. Your guidance and school list has yielded 3 MD IIs so far as a low GPA/high-ish MCAT nontrad.
 
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thattia said:
Hi Goro!

Would you say I need reinvention?

Freshman year: cgpa 3.86, sgpa AAMC 3.64, sgpa AACOMAS 3.526
Sophomore year: cgpa 3.497, sgpa AAMC 3.085, sgpa AACOMAS 2.973
Junior year: cgpa 3.483, sgpa AAMC 3.326, sgpa AACOMAS 3.184
Senior year: cgpa 3.783, sgpa AAMC 3.643, sgpa AACOMAS 3.706

overall cgpa 3.66, AAMC sgpa 3.38, AACOMAs sgpa 3.32
Click to expand...
That weak sGPA will hurt for MD schools. You should be fine for DO
 
I am trying to determine how many credits of reinvention I should strive for.
cGPA: 3.18 sGPA: 2.73
Senior year GPA: 3.7
~6,300 clinical hours

I have 23 credits of pre-reqs that I plan to take over 3 semesters which can potentially bring my GPA up to 3.31/3.12. After completing pre-reqs, I planned to take 30-33 credits of a DIY post bacc to further prove reinvention. Would all 55+ credits be needed to prove reinvention?
 
Lilobby said:
I am trying to determine how many credits of reinvention I should strive for.
cGPA: 3.18 sGPA: 2.73
Senior year GPA: 3.7
~6,300 clinical hours

I have 23 credits of pre-reqs that I plan to take over 3 semesters which can potentially bring my GPA up to 3.31/3.12. After completing pre-reqs, I planned to take 30-33 credits of a DIY post bacc to further prove reinvention. Would all 55+ credits be needed to prove reinvention?
Click to expand...
Absolutely!!
 
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I am currently trying to reinvent my gpa and wondering if I need to do an SMP
my undergrad is sgpa 3.0 and cgpa 3.2. I did 3 semesters of post bacc, which are 3.3, 3.8, 4.0. I was looking to do one more semester in the spring and assuming I do a 3.9-4.0, would that be enough or would a SMP be good. After this semester, I am at 35 credits at a 3.6 post bacc and after the spring semester, I will be at a 3.68-3.7 post bacc. I know assuming a semester is not the best but I want to get my SMP applications in early. My current MCAT score is a 511.

Also, it would not be a good idea to take evolutionary biology as one of my Post-bacc courses right?
 
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AS999 said:
I am currently trying to reinvent my gpa and wondering if I need to do an SMP
my undergrad is sgpa 3.0 and cgpa 3.2. I did 3 semesters of post bacc, which are 3.3, 3.8, 4.0. I was looking to do one more semester in the spring and assuming I do a 3.9-4.0, would that be enough or would a SMP be good. After this semester, I am at 35 credits at a 3.6 post bacc and after the spring semester, I will be at a 3.68-3.7 post bacc. I know assuming a semester is not the best but I want to get my SMP applications in early. My current MCAT score is a 511.

Also, it would not be a good idea to take evolutionary biology as one of my Post-bacc courses right?
Click to expand...
I think that one more good semester will be enough to show reinvention.
Evolutionary biology is a challenging subject, so it's OK.
 
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AS999 said:
I am currently trying to reinvent my gpa and wondering if I need to do an SMP
my undergrad is sgpa 3.0 and cgpa 3.2. I did 3 semesters of post bacc, which are 3.3, 3.8, 4.0. I was looking to do one more semester in the spring and assuming I do a 3.9-4.0, would that be enough or would a SMP be good. After this semester, I am at 35 credits at a 3.6 post bacc and after the spring semester, I will be at a 3.68-3.7 post bacc. I know assuming a semester is not the best but I want to get my SMP applications in early. My current MCAT score is a 511.

Also, it would not be a good idea to take evolutionary biology as one of my Post-bacc courses right?
Click to expand...

You’ve already heard from the master of reinvention, so take any other advice with a grain of salt.

My opinion is that you need to really focus on getting a 3.8-4.0 GPA in that last semester.

Good luck! I’m sure you got this.

Side note: Do not take that class if you think it will be so challenging that it tanks your GPA.
 
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Awesome thank you for the advice! I only ask for the evolutionary biology as I know its not as preferred as classes like pathology or histology, so I just wanted to check if it is a good class to take to show reinvention or should I try my best to take classes in other areas.
 
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@Goro Does in-state schools + DO schools apply for 510 mcat in california? i feel like california schools wouldn't take that mcat score, especially for a nontrad
 
whichbreath said:
@Goro Does in-state schools + DO schools apply for 510 mcat in california? i feel like california schools wouldn't take that mcat score, especially for a nontrad
Click to expand...
DO schools yes.

The UCs? UCR if you're from that region, UCD if you have lots of service in the middle valley. UCLA is one is disadvantaged, I'm told.

Otherwise, CA would be a net exporter of applicants
 
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It's been ~ 8 years now, but I remember feeling stressed out about being "old" and having some serious red flags in my application. I followed a lot of the advice Goro posted, from what gigs constituted high-value volunteering opportunities to navigating the tumultuous cancellation of grade replacement for Osteopathic schools. N=1, but I was accepted to one of my top schools, earned an MD, and went on to residency at one of my top choices. Goro knows the constantly evolving admissions game; it's definitely worth a listen :D
 
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I took anatomy in the fall of 2019 and got a D. I re-took anatomy in the spring of 2020 and got a B since half of the class was online (covid). I then completely switched my major. I graduated and moved back home. At my hometown, most of the colleges here offer Anatomy & Physiology 1 or Anatomy & Physiology 2. There is one university here (with a medical school) that offers physiology. I work a 8-5 job that conflicts with physiology's morning classes. To take physiology at the university I would wait until spring 2025 so I could quit my job and be a full-time student again. I am okay with waiting.

Would it look bad to take the anatomy & physiology sequence (night/weekend classes) at a community college after already taking anatomy twice? My grades are really bad, below a 3.0 gpa for both cgpa and sgpa, I could use the A's from cc. Does taking physiology at a university with a medical school matter as much as getting 2 A's from a community college? Thank you so much for your time!
 
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