Des Moines University (DMU-COM) Discussion Thread 2012 - 2013

[Dr2017]

Got an II today, complete since 11/14.

Interview scheduled for February 21, will be calling them over the next couple weeks in case someone cancels an earlier day. Interview days start February 1st but all were full.

Congratulations. They put together a great tour and a a very calming interview environment. I'm sure you'll love it there.

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[ajh1983]

I have a wife and three kids. Purchasing a house if I could guarantee a location would be sweet but nowhere I have interviewed/been accepted guarantees rotation sites in any locations. I may be in a city for two years, three four or forever. Just no way to know.

AZCOM is somewhat unique in that you select/are granted 3rd year location region after acceptance. But you are correct, it is heavy decision. I've spoken to as many versed in the situation as possible.

 

[naare0602]

II for Feb 21st been complete since 10/24. Feb 21st was the first open day.

 

[Dr2017]

Just got the email from my 12/14 interview. Accepted for class of 2017! Now decisions begin. 114 year established program or 35 year old program on a 3 year old campus at comp-NW. Loved both schools. I guess I'm in a good predicament.

 

[Sconniemed]

Accepted today!!! Good luck everyone! Stats in MDApps

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I have a wife and three kids. Purchasing a house if I could guarantee a location would be sweet but nowhere I have interviewed/been accepted guarantees rotation sites in any locations. I may be in a city for two years, three four or forever. Just no way to know.

I am active in SGA and in our last meeting I brought up with the msIIs about this stuff as they are doing site surveys. I asked if there was anybody really upset with the rotation situation. They said that based on the surveys every spot was taken and nobody will be bumped into a rotation that screws their family and everyone with a family was very happy.

Thank you and yes, I'm honestly aware of the risks. For phoenix I DO have local rotations guaranteed, and the savings of ownership approach 90K without factoring appreciation for those 4 years. Plus, I'm not 23 and I'm not moving there single. My lifestyle these days is different than most college grads. If, and only if, I was able to work out a similar living scenario near DMU would I consider it.

Call and ask. I have no clue but it might help for DMU to know that you would definitely go there if accepted. But I could be wrong.

 

[liberaldoc238]

I am currently a 4th year student at Des Moines University. I would recommend NOT going to this "medical school." Do not waste your time or money on a university that is basically a domestic degree mill. I can promise you that I am not the only student that has this opinion. We all want out of this place. I feel like I have an obligation at least to give you some advice as applicants. I sure wish someone would have done this for me. My advice to you is to LISTEN UP! This is not a complete list and is not in any particular order of importance.

Number 1: Des Moines University is basically a lousy 2 year school for the price of a 4 year. There is no teaching hospital. This is not unique to Des Moines University but it is a problem. YOu are put in a lottery for 3rd year and most students are in the Central Iowa Group. Don't let "central iowa" fool you. I was sent to rotations all over Iowa and even to a rotation in San Antonio Texas. Oh yea and expect to use loan money to get temporary housing because thats not covered by DMU nor is your transportation cost (it adds up when you drive 100 plus miles a day). Oh yea and don't expect to learn a lot on these rotations either. They are often next to worthless. Imagine sitting in a rural iowa clinic for like 10 hours a day to see like 5 patients. But don't complain to the school because a bad rotation is a "problem with the student"

Number 2: OMM= completely worthless pseudoscience. Okay alright I do use it on my Wife on occasion however you will not be using it in practice. OMM will be shoved down your throats for the first 2 years. You spend a ridiculous amount of classtime hours (I am comparing DMU to other DO schools) learning what is often nonsense. In fact over the first 2 years OMM is worth more credits than any other course. You spend more hours in OMM than in pathology. Ridiculous!

Number 3: lack of clinical academic faculty. If you are looking to go into emergency medicine or radiology or whatever there is a complete lack of academic clinical advisers in the specialty of your choice. YOu are on your own.

Number 4: Clinical affairs department is basically akin to a third world country. Although we are told that we must go through our clinical affairs adviser to set up our rotations dont' count on it happening. I set up most of my 4th year rotations through google. Yes...I called places for hours setting up my own rotations. I am not alone in this either.

Number 5: Cost: tuition has doubled in past ten years. They raise tution by about 1400 dollars a year. They force you to buy a kaplan board review course for like 1600 dollars. They force you to drive miles to rotation sites in rural areas. Think about it. The university of Iowa has a teaching hospital with dedicated clinical faculty for much less money than DMU. We go to random places hundreds of miles away with preceptors that many times don't give a damn about teaching.

Number 6: words cannot describe how terrible this university is. I am giving you my honest opinion. Go to a MD school or a DO school that has a centralized teaching hospital. Don't waste your time or money here. Go to a public university! If you didnt' get over a 30 on your MCAT then RETAKE IT! Just do it. Reapply next year. Work at a bar and volunteer at a hospital for a year then reapply. One year is nothing even two isn't bad. Just keep trying to get in. Get your masters degree! Going to this place is a waste of money. It makes me sick that i paid so much money for such a little return. Or just don't go into medicine at all. If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor. DONT GO TO DMU! PERIOD

 

[liberaldoc238]

Oh yeah and if you got into an MD school than you would be a complete IDIOT to go to DMU over an MD school....MD schools have teaching hospitals....

 

[Skeeks]

I am currently a 4th year student at Des Moines University. I would recommend NOT going to this "medical school." Do not waste your time or money on a university that is basically a domestic degree mill. I can promise you that I am not the only student that has this opinion. We all want out of this place. I feel like I have an obligation at least to give you some advice as applicants. I sure wish someone would have done this for me. My advice to you is to LISTEN UP! This is not a complete list and is not in any particular order of importance.

Number 1: Des Moines University is basically a lousy 2 year school for the price of a 4 year. There is no teaching hospital. This is not unique to Des Moines University but it is a problem. YOu are put in a lottery for 3rd year and most students are in the Central Iowa Group. Don't let "central iowa" fool you. I was sent to rotations all over Iowa and even to a rotation in San Antonio Texas. Oh yea and expect to use loan money to get temporary housing because thats not covered by DMU nor is your transportation cost (it adds up when you drive 100 plus miles a day). Oh yea and don't expect to learn a lot on these rotations either. They are often next to worthless. Imagine sitting in a rural iowa clinic for like 10 hours a day to see like 5 patients. But don't complain to the school because a bad rotation is a "problem with the student"

Number 2: OMM= completely worthless pseudoscience. Okay alright I do use it on my Wife on occasion however you will not be using it in practice. OMM will be shoved down your throats for the first 2 years. You spend a ridiculous amount of classtime hours (I am comparing DMU to other DO schools) learning what is often nonsense. In fact over the first 2 years OMM is worth more credits than any other course. You spend more hours in OMM than in pathology. Ridiculous!

Number 3: lack of clinical academic faculty. If you are looking to go into emergency medicine or radiology or whatever there is a complete lack of academic clinical advisers in the specialty of your choice. YOu are on your own.

Number 4: Clinical affairs department is basically akin to a third world country. Although we are told that we must go through our clinical affairs adviser to set up our rotations dont' count on it happening. I set up most of my 4th year rotations through google. Yes...I called places for hours setting up my own rotations. I am not alone in this either.

Number 5: Cost: tuition has doubled in past ten years. They raise tution by about 1400 dollars a year. They force you to buy a kaplan board review course for like 1600 dollars. They force you to drive miles to rotation sites in rural areas. Think about it. The university of Iowa has a teaching hospital with dedicated clinical faculty for much less money than DMU. We go to random places hundreds of miles away with preceptors that many times don't give a damn about teaching.

Number 6: words cannot describe how terrible this university is. I am giving you my honest opinion. Go to a MD school or a DO school that has a centralized teaching hospital. Don't waste your time or money here. Go to a public university! If you didnt' get over a 30 on your MCAT then RETAKE IT! Just do it. Reapply next year. Work at a bar and volunteer at a hospital for a year then reapply. One year is nothing even two isn't bad. Just keep trying to get in. Get your masters degree! Going to this place is a waste of money. It makes me sick that i paid so much money for such a little return. Or just don't go into medicine at all. If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor. DONT GO TO DMU! PERIOD

That has to be the biggest troll I have ever seen. What a load of crock. Just remember that he also said this:

biggest mistake I ever made was going to medical school. I literally loath the students I run into that get a hard on about some patient they saw with some stupid disease that I don't give a **** about. Seriously talk to me about the baseball game last night instead of this ****.

I hate it and want out.....I should have moved to colorado and worked at a bar when I had the chance........now im stuck with debt...**** my life

 

[liberaldoc238]

Yeah I did say that. It was probably true that day. You havent got a clue man. Not a clue. All i am saying is ask around. Ask for the students opinions that are in 3rd and 4th year. I am trying to help. I really am. Everyone has a day where they wish they didn't go to med school and they vent here and elsewhere. The people you talk to on interview day don't have a clue either. They are 1st and 2nd years who don't know jack about clinical affairs department. My advice to you is to listen. Don't go to DMU. Ask for the email of third and 4th years. Its your life.

 

[liberaldoc238]

Oh and by the way I was sent to san antonio texas and I was sent to rotaitons sites in random rural iowa areas. This is the truth.

 

[skargylejohn]

Yeah I did say that. It was probably true that day. You havent got a clue man. Not a clue. All i am saying is ask around. Ask for the students opinions that are in 3rd and 4th year. I am trying to help. I really am. Everyone has a day where they wish they didn't go to med school and they vent here and elsewhere. The people you talk to on interview day don't have a clue either. They are 1st and 2nd years who don't know jack about clinical affairs department. My advice to you is to listen. Don't go to DMU. Ask for the email of third and 4th years. Its your life.

I have a friend in 4th year at DMU who turned down allo acceptances and said he's been thoroughly pleased with the education, clinical or otherwise, he's received at DMU. I don't doubt your experience has been negative and from looking at your previous posts I can see you aren't too happy with your choice to go into medicine. But the same can be said for other schools, even at allo schools. Here's an example.

http://studentdoctor.net/schools/school/rfucms/survey/35

Best of luck with your future but it sounds like you'd be happier in another field.

 

[liberaldoc238]

And I am a good student. I am going into a competitive specialty and have excellent board scores. You are the one that should listen. YOu have no idea what you are getting into with this place.

 

[liberaldoc238]

I have a friend in 4th year at DMU who turned down allo acceptances and said he's been thoroughly pleased with the education, clinical or otherwise, he's received at DMU. I don't doubt your experience has been negative and from looking at your previous posts I can see you aren't too happy with your choice to go into medicine. But the same can be said for other schools, even at allo schools. Here's an example.

http://studentdoctor.net/schools/school/rfucms/survey/35

Best of luck with your future but it sounds like you'd be happier in another field.

Ask more students. Was she at a third year site or in Central Iowa.? The people in Central Iowa group got screwed and thats over half the class. The others were sent to third year hospitals sites all over the country. I am only trying to get you guys to ask more people than just one. You don't get it guys.

 

[Skeeks]

Ask more students. Was she at a third year site or in Central Iowa.? The people in Central Iowa group got screwed and thats over half the class. The others were sent to third year hospitals sites all over the country. I am only trying to get you guys to ask more people than just one. You don't get it guys.

:troll:

 

[Lappy Droopy]

Interviewed 12/21/12, put on the waitlist. Any idea how much/little the waitlist moves?

 

[skargylejohn]

Ask more students. Was she at a third year site or in Central Iowa.? The people in Central Iowa group got screwed and thats over half the class. The others were sent to third year hospitals sites all over the country. I am only trying to get you guys to ask more people than just one. You don't get it guys.

I don't know where he did third year rotations. Which locations in particular do you deem inadequate. I want to look them up.

 

[liberaldoc238]

I don't know where he did third year rotations. Which locations in particular do you deem inadequate. I want to look them up.

.you can't possibly look all of them up. We are sent to private outpatient doctors in rural areas. Knoxville, Webster City, Winterset, Newton are some examples.

You can graduate from this university without having any inpatient experience in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics. Imagine that. A good chunk of third year students go the entire year without setting foot in a hospital with the exception of the surgical rotation. They have all outpatient rotations.

 

[liberaldoc238]

:troll:

Grow up man. I am just trying to help. I am not saying anything that is false. In fact I expect this thread to be full of 4th years with advice. I am a well respected classmate. I stick up for my peers. The president of the class and I speak all the time about the problems of this university. I have sent out class emails with our combined concerns. Stop burying your head in the sand. Listen to what we have to say. These are real concerns. I am not a troll. I have sweat blood and tears into this profession. I am a highly intelligent person who just believes that medical students should get what they pay for and not have to put up with excess bull****. You haven't been through it so listen to us. I even interviewed for an emergency medicine residency position where the residency director said "I hear bad things about that school (DMU)...."

 

[screamin eagle]

I don't know about their hold-list but buying a house while you're in school may not be the wisest decision. Des Moines makes no guarantees as to your location for rotations third year. You rank your choices but after that its a lottery. Forget about where you'll be fourth year. You may find yourself making payments on a house that you can't live in in two years. I have encountered many people who are regretting purchasing a house in med school and residency and now have to contend with out of state rentals. Sorry to get off topic but just my two cents.

I would have to disagree, buying a house within a reasonable distance from a campus would not be a bad investment. Even if you have to move for rotations you can still rent out your house for that year to other students or sell and you shouldn't have trouble selling a house in a college area.

 

[Dr2017]

I would have to disagree, buying a house within a reasonable distance from a campus would not be a bad investment. Even if you have to move for rotations you can still rent out your house for that year to other students or sell and you shouldn't have trouble selling a house in a college area.

You need to make the financial decisions you deem appropriate. I come from a career in apartment and housing management and know how much of a hassle rentals can be. Especially if you are located out of state. While professional students may be the ideal renters, my experience with college students in general tells me the necessary repairs when you turn the property can get pricey. Renters very rarely treat homes the way home owners treat their homes. It seems like an awfully big hassle while trying to deal with the rigors of medical school. If your spouse is able to handle the management and maintenance, more power to you.

The other option is paying a management company to manage the asset, but then you will likely not be able to "make" any money off rent. Your only financial gain will be when you sell and that is reliant on an upward swing in the market and the ability to sell.

I have been a homeowner for the better part of a decade and it kills me to know I will be paying somebody else's mortgage, but I personally don't want the hassle during this uncertain part of my life.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Grow up man. I am just trying to help. I am not saying anything that is false. In fact I expect this thread to be full of 4th years with advice. I am a well respected classmate. I stick up for my peers. The president of the class and I speak all the time about the problems of this university. I have sent out class emails with our combined concerns. Stop burying your head in the sand. Listen to what we have to say. These are real concerns. I am not a troll. I have sweat blood and tears into this profession. I am a highly intelligent person who just believes that medical students should get what they pay for and not have to put up with excess bull****. You haven't been through it so listen to us. I even interviewed for an emergency medicine residency position where the residency director said "I hear bad things about that school (DMU)...."

you gotta understand that while you may be telling the truth, as a first year, it goes against everything i have heard. sure i don't know many 3rd or 4th years, but i know a couple and i haven't heard any complaints so for all we know, you are a jaded student who didn't perform well on the boards or in their grades and is now having troubles getting interviews in the specialty you want to go and are blaming it on DMU for some reason. Not saying you are, but how can we confirm that you aren't. We can't. And until that happens, I am going to give DMU the benefit of the doubt because I am very happy with what I have seen. Again, I may be wrong, and i me coming back in 3 years saying the same, but I am not going to throw my hands up furious with DMU's crappy clinical affairs department based on someone who CLAIMS he is a great student. sorry you are jaded, but good luck in the match.

 

[liberaldoc238]

you gotta understand that while you may be telling the truth, as a first year, it goes against everything i have heard. sure i don't know many 3rd or 4th years, but i know a couple and i haven't heard any complaints so for all we know, you are a jaded student who didn't perform well on the boards or in their grades and is now having troubles getting interviews in the specialty you want to go and are blaming it on DMU for some reason. Not saying you are, but how can we confirm that you aren't. We can't. And until that happens, I am going to give DMU the benefit of the doubt because I am very happy with what I have seen. Again, I may be wrong, and i me coming back in 3 years saying the same, but I am not going to throw my hands up furious with DMU's crappy clinical affairs department based on someone who CLAIMS he is a great student. sorry you are jaded, but good luck in the match.

Not the case at all. I took USMLE and the COMLEX and did really well. You don't have a clue either....just wait and see. i guarantee you will feel the pain in a couple years. Good luck to you as well...I'm glad I'm out of this terrible school in a few months. I feel sorry for those still in it....

 

[michow87]

Not the case at all. I took USMLE and the COMLEX and did really well. You don't have a clue either....just wait and see. i guarantee you will feel the pain in a couple years. Good luck to you as well...I'm glad I'm out of this terrible school in a few months. I feel sorry for those still in it....

I have yet to hear of the problems that you are mentioning, but if they are valid then this is a definite concern.

I know that you mentioned that there were too many poor rotation sites to mention, but why don't you tell us where you did your core rotations so that we can do some research on our own.

 

[Iliketoytles]

I am currently a 4th year student at Des Moines University. I would recommend NOT going to this "medical school." Do not waste your time or money on a university that is basically a domestic degree mill. I can promise you that I am not the only student that has this opinion. We all want out of this place. I feel like I have an obligation at least to give you some advice as applicants. I sure wish someone would have done this for me. My advice to you is to LISTEN UP! This is not a complete list and is not in any particular order of importance.

Number 1: Des Moines University is basically a lousy 2 year school for the price of a 4 year. There is no teaching hospital. This is not unique to Des Moines University but it is a problem. YOu are put in a lottery for 3rd year and most students are in the Central Iowa Group. Don't let "central iowa" fool you. I was sent to rotations all over Iowa and even to a rotation in San Antonio Texas. Oh yea and expect to use loan money to get temporary housing because thats not covered by DMU nor is your transportation cost (it adds up when you drive 100 plus miles a day). Oh yea and don't expect to learn a lot on these rotations either. They are often next to worthless. Imagine sitting in a rural iowa clinic for like 10 hours a day to see like 5 patients. But don't complain to the school because a bad rotation is a "problem with the student"

Number 2: OMM= completely worthless pseudoscience. Okay alright I do use it on my Wife on occasion however you will not be using it in practice. OMM will be shoved down your throats for the first 2 years. You spend a ridiculous amount of classtime hours (I am comparing DMU to other DO schools) learning what is often nonsense. In fact over the first 2 years OMM is worth more credits than any other course. You spend more hours in OMM than in pathology. Ridiculous!

Number 3: lack of clinical academic faculty. If you are looking to go into emergency medicine or radiology or whatever there is a complete lack of academic clinical advisers in the specialty of your choice. YOu are on your own.

Number 4: Clinical affairs department is basically akin to a third world country. Although we are told that we must go through our clinical affairs adviser to set up our rotations dont' count on it happening. I set up most of my 4th year rotations through google. Yes...I called places for hours setting up my own rotations. I am not alone in this either.

Number 5: Cost: tuition has doubled in past ten years. They raise tution by about 1400 dollars a year. They force you to buy a kaplan board review course for like 1600 dollars. They force you to drive miles to rotation sites in rural areas. Think about it. The university of Iowa has a teaching hospital with dedicated clinical faculty for much less money than DMU. We go to random places hundreds of miles away with preceptors that many times don't give a damn about teaching.

Number 6: words cannot describe how terrible this university is. I am giving you my honest opinion. Go to a MD school or a DO school that has a centralized teaching hospital. Don't waste your time or money here. Go to a public university! If you didnt' get over a 30 on your MCAT then RETAKE IT! Just do it. Reapply next year. Work at a bar and volunteer at a hospital for a year then reapply. One year is nothing even two isn't bad. Just keep trying to get in. Get your masters degree! Going to this place is a waste of money. It makes me sick that i paid so much money for such a little return. Or just don't go into medicine at all. If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor. DONT GO TO DMU! PERIOD

As a first year student, I haven't really come across any of these problems you're advising us about... probably because they mostly deal with the latter years. Your biggest complaint seems to be lack of a teaching hospital/rotation sites. At every SGA meeting there's always a conversation about expansion of rotation sites/site surveys... so if it is a problem, it's being looked into. And as for teaching hospitals... well, you might as well convince every DO to waste another 2-3 years to aim for MD or drop medicine all together, since I believe most DO schools don't have an associated teaching hospital.

I just re-read parts of your posts and am sort of laughing at how dramatic you make it sound. "If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor." Really? Wow. And constantly telling us we don't have a clue, while true, doesn't add anything to what your saying. It's just annoying to read.

Advice from 3rd/4th year students is invaluable... but something about you strikes me the wrong way. You make everything seem so radically horrible. I've been on these boards a long time, have spoken to many 2nd/3rd years, and while there are always going to be some serious complaints here and there, nobody has held your stance. I don't doubt anything you said, though. It's just hard to take you seriously with all your "You have no idea what you're getting into" talk. Anyway, best of luck on residency.

 

[liberaldoc238]

As a first year student, I haven't really come across any of these problems you're advising us about... probably because they mostly deal with the latter years. Your biggest complaint seems to be lack of a teaching hospital/rotation sites. At every SGA meeting there's always a conversation about expansion of rotation sites/site surveys... so if it is a problem, it's being looked into. And as for teaching hospitals... well, you might as well convince every DO to waste another 2-3 years to aim for MD or drop medicine all together, since I believe most DO schools don't have an associated teaching hospital.

I just re-read parts of your posts and am sort of laughing at how dramatic you make it sound. "If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor." Really? Wow. And constantly telling us we don't have a clue, while true, doesn't add anything to what your saying. It's just annoying to read.

Advice from 3rd/4th year students is invaluable... but something about you strikes me the wrong way. You make everything seem so radically horrible. I've been on these boards a long time, have spoken to many 2nd/3rd years, and while there are always going to be some serious complaints here and there, nobody has held your stance. I don't doubt anything you said, though. It's just hard to take you seriously with all your "You have no idea what you're getting into" talk. Anyway, best of luck on residency.

If there is always a conversation about improving/expanding rotation sites then why does the school increase its DO student enrollment? Its all about money. If the focus was on the students getting quality rotation sites and training, schools would not be adding 10-20 new students per year. I encourage you to look at the universities 990 tax return and see for yourself the little amount of money is spent on scholarships for students (www.guidestar.org). See how the revenue of the school has continued to skyrocket while the quality of clinical education remains poor. If the school was truly concerned with the education of its students then why are there so few students at the large hospitals in Des Moines? It makes a difference trust me. There is a difference between doing an Internal Medicine Rotation at a large tertiary care center vs some outpatient internal medicine site in the middle of nowhere.

If you want to talk about wasting you time: another 2-3 years trying to get into a MD school, think about using 4 years and 250,000-300,000 dollars of your money on a education a that will likely not get you into a field or speciality you want. I have been fortunate in that I did very well on the boards and I have options open to me. However, some of my friends who have average scores have really be hurt by the lack of tools the school provides. Having the same grades and scores from a different institution, they would have way more doors open to them. If you want to family medicine, by all means, go there. If you aren't sure or if you want to do something more competitive, do not fool yourself in thinking you'll will have the same quality of education or opportunities as if you had gone elsewhere.

If you think I sound frustrated and embittered, I am. I have struggled to set up my own rotations. I have spent thousands of dollars traveling and paying for housing for rotations my school set up for me. I've had to seek out advisers from across the country because they were not available at DMU. And I have done this with the full knowledge that at other schools (state MD schools for example) ALL of these services are provided for you. Just wait until you are on an interview and the program director looks at you incredulously at you and ask "You don't have clinical faculty advisors (for you speciality)?" and then says "I've heard bad things about your school." If the reputation of your school is going to follow you, you want it to be a good one.

You are making an important choice here, make sure you really know what you are getting into. And make sure you are making a choice that will get you the career you want to have. I would encourage you all to ask 4th years about their experiences--don't rely on the school to air it's dirty laundry and point out it faults.

 

[Iliketoytles]

If there is always a conversation about improving/expanding rotation sites then why does the school increase its DO student enrollment? Its all about money. If the focus was on the students getting quality rotation sites and training, schools would not be adding 10-20 new students per year. I encourage you to look at the universities 990 tax return and see for yourself the little amount of money is spent on scholarships for students (www.guidestar.org). See how the revenue of the school has continued to skyrocket while the quality of clinical education remains poor. If the school was truly concerned with the education of its students then why are there so few students at the large hospitals in Des Moines? It makes a difference trust me. There is a difference between doing an Internal Medicine Rotation at a large tertiary care center vs some outpatient internal medicine site in the middle of nowhere.

If you want to talk about wasting you time: another 2-3 years trying to get into a MD school, think about using 4 years and 250,000-300,000 dollars of your money on a education a that will likely not get you into a field or speciality you want. I have been fortunate in that I did very well on the boards and I have options open to me. However, some of my friends who have average scores have really be hurt by the lack of tools the school provides. Having the same grades and scores from a different institution, they would have way more doors open to them. If you want to family medicine, by all means, go there. If you aren't sure or if you want to do something more competitive, do not fool yourself in thinking you'll will have the same quality of education or opportunities as if you had gone elsewhere.

If you think I sound frustrated and embittered, I am. I have struggled to set up my own rotations. I have spent thousands of dollars traveling and paying for housing for rotations my school set up for me. I've had to seek out advisers from across the country because they were not available at DMU. And I have done this with the full knowledge that at other schools (state MD schools for example) ALL of these services are provided for you. Just wait until you are on an interview and the program director looks at you incredulously at you and ask "You don't have clinical faculty advisors (for you speciality)?" and then says "I've heard bad things about your school." If the reputation of your school is going to follow you, you want it to be a good one.

You are making an important choice here, make sure you really know what you are getting into. And make sure you are making a choice that will get you the career you want to have. I would encourage you all to ask 4th years about their experiences--don't rely on the school to air it's dirty laundry and point out it faults.

Fair enough. I and/or someone else who looks at SDN may be bringing these things up at the next president's meeting or with sga. My experience with the school has been great, but rotations haven't been brought up much. We'll see how it goes.

 

[skargylejohn]

Fair enough. I and/or someone else who looks at SDN may be bringing these things up at the next president's meeting or with sga. My experience with the school has been great, but rotations haven't been brought up much. We'll see how it goes.

I look forward to what you find out.

 

[dbs1]

see for yourself the little amount of money is spent on scholarships for students (www.guidestar.org).

I can't really refute many of your other claims because I'm not a DMU student, nor do I know any current 3rd or 4th years there, but this statement definitely seems misguided. Very few med schools--allopathic or osteopathic (especially osteopathic)--allocate a significant portion of their funds toward scholarships for students. As far as I'm aware, DMU is one of the only osteopathic schools that offers scholarships to its incoming students. Thus, I don't think this should be on your list of grievances against the school.

If you aren't sure or if you want to do something more competitive, do not fool yourself in thinking you'll will have the same quality of education or opportunities as if you had gone elsewhere.

Again, I'm not in much of a position to judge this, but doesn't DMU have a pretty decent match list?

I'm not saying that your concerns aren't valid, but if it's really so bad, do you think that you could get some of your 3rd/4th year classmates to come on here and lend credence to your claims? When it's just one person saying these things, it's not all that credible...

 

[nilnocere]

I am currently a 4th year student at Des Moines University. I would recommend NOT going to this "medical school." Do not waste your time or money on a university that is basically a domestic degree mill. I can promise you that I am not the only student that has this opinion. We all want out of this place. I feel like I have an obligation at least to give you some advice as applicants. I sure wish someone would have done this for me. My advice to you is to LISTEN UP! This is not a complete list and is not in any particular order of importance.

Number 1: Des Moines University is basically a lousy 2 year school for the price of a 4 year. There is no teaching hospital. This is not unique to Des Moines University but it is a problem. YOu are put in a lottery for 3rd year and most students are in the Central Iowa Group. Don't let "central iowa" fool you. I was sent to rotations all over Iowa and even to a rotation in San Antonio Texas. Oh yea and expect to use loan money to get temporary housing because thats not covered by DMU nor is your transportation cost (it adds up when you drive 100 plus miles a day). Oh yea and don't expect to learn a lot on these rotations either. They are often next to worthless. Imagine sitting in a rural iowa clinic for like 10 hours a day to see like 5 patients. But don't complain to the school because a bad rotation is a "problem with the student"

Number 2: OMM= completely worthless pseudoscience. Okay alright I do use it on my Wife on occasion however you will not be using it in practice. OMM will be shoved down your throats for the first 2 years. You spend a ridiculous amount of classtime hours (I am comparing DMU to other DO schools) learning what is often nonsense. In fact over the first 2 years OMM is worth more credits than any other course. You spend more hours in OMM than in pathology. Ridiculous!

Number 3: lack of clinical academic faculty. If you are looking to go into emergency medicine or radiology or whatever there is a complete lack of academic clinical advisers in the specialty of your choice. YOu are on your own.

Number 4: Clinical affairs department is basically akin to a third world country. Although we are told that we must go through our clinical affairs adviser to set up our rotations dont' count on it happening. I set up most of my 4th year rotations through google. Yes...I called places for hours setting up my own rotations. I am not alone in this either.

Number 5: Cost: tuition has doubled in past ten years. They raise tution by about 1400 dollars a year. They force you to buy a kaplan board review course for like 1600 dollars. They force you to drive miles to rotation sites in rural areas. Think about it. The university of Iowa has a teaching hospital with dedicated clinical faculty for much less money than DMU. We go to random places hundreds of miles away with preceptors that many times don't give a damn about teaching.

Number 6: words cannot describe how terrible this university is. I am giving you my honest opinion. Go to a MD school or a DO school that has a centralized teaching hospital. Don't waste your time or money here. Go to a public university! If you didnt' get over a 30 on your MCAT then RETAKE IT! Just do it. Reapply next year. Work at a bar and volunteer at a hospital for a year then reapply. One year is nothing even two isn't bad. Just keep trying to get in. Get your masters degree! Going to this place is a waste of money. It makes me sick that i paid so much money for such a little return. Or just don't go into medicine at all. If I had a choice between not being a doctor and suffering through this place for 4 years I would choose not being a doctor. DONT GO TO DMU! PERIOD

Thank you for your personal views. The rational thing for anyone to do is to read this and think about it, instead of squabble over it. Most people who make the decision to go to a particular medical school, do so thoughtfully. In the end, it is the opinion of the individual and should be left as such. Crassly heeding others to avoid a particular school, in my opinion, is not the proper method of conveying a particular point. Nonetheless, thank you. I wish you well.

 

[liberaldoc238]

Thank you for your personal views. The rational thing for anyone to do is to read this and think about it, instead of squabble over it. Most people who make the decision to go to a particular medical school, do so thoughtfully. In the end, it is the opinion of the individual and should be left as such. Crassly heeding others to avoid a particular school, in my opinion, is not the proper method of conveying a particular point. Nonetheless, thank you. I wish you well.

You are welcome. As I stated earlier I am trying to help. I guess the question I would ask yourself is "How many bad reviews do you have to read before you begin to believe them?" How about I quote an official document?

This is from the giant document called "DMU Self Study" It states "Students performing successive rotations at geographically distant sites from the University during their third year have reported discomfort with learning expectations (compared to their colleagues from other medical universities)." (page 93...link http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Criterion-3.pdf) Believe me there has to be enough voices heard for DMU actually publish them. The thing is that few people read these reports. I would read the entire thing if I were you. Read the fine print.

What is interesting is that the universities response to the problem above is the following: "To address these concerns and a perceived lack of
“connection to the University” during clinical rotations, in July 2009 COM instituted the annual Clinical Comprehensive Examination Week for its
students transitioning from their third year into the fourth year of clinical rotation experiences" In other words the school doesn't fix the broken system of rural random rotation sites of poor quality. Instead, the university masks the problem by creating a test week that is going to make up for the poor quality rotations (by the way enjoy paying a lot of money to stay in Iowa that week).

This problem is no accident. "In 2005, the COM dean developed a theme of Bring ’Em Back to Iowa to reduce the number of off-site learners experiencing their third-year core clinical rotations outside of the state....Success has been observed; over 70 percent of third-year learners now experience core rotations in approximately 106 Iowa communities with over 1,200 Iowa physician educators." Clearly the school has not been interested in quality rotation sites if it continues this practice despite student feedback and common sense that rural rotations are of poorer quality compared to rotations at academic centers. Instead of the university collaborating with other universities across the country to provide sound clinical year educations they have ignored student complaints to achieve some self created theme of "bring 'em back to Iowa"

Believe me now. I could send out an email today to my classmates and there would be a flood of posts on this forum. However, I don't know if you guys want that. This is after all a pre-med forum. Once again I encourage you not to attend this university. This is not just my opinion but the voice of many.

 

[deleted307836]

You can graduate from this university without having any inpatient experience in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics. Imagine that. A good chunk of third year students go the entire year without setting foot in a hospital with the exception of the surgical rotation. They have all outpatient rotations.

If true, this actually is a pretty glaring problem. Thanks for your posts.

 

[dbs1]

Believe me now. I could send out an email today to my classmates and there would be a flood of posts on this forum

I can't speak for everyone on here, but I would actually want additional feedback from other 3rd/4th years. One of the reasons why DMU is one of my top choices is that student satisfaction (at least among 1st and 2nd years) seems so high. If there's a genuine dissatisfaction among a decent proportion of 3rd/4th years due to subpar clinical rotations, I want to know about it so that I can use this information to make a final informed decision. For now, though, I'm skeptical--it's not terribly credible when it's just one person saying it and it's so incongruous with everything I've heard about DMU.

 

[liberaldoc238]

I can't speak for everyone on here, but I would actually want additional feedback from other 3rd/4th years. One of the reasons why DMU is one of my top choices is that student satisfaction (at least among 1st and 2nd years) seems so high. If there's a genuine dissatisfaction among a decent proportion of 3rd/4th years due to subpar clinical rotations, I want to know about it so that I can use this information to make a final informed decision. For now, though, I'm skeptical--it's not terribly credible when it's just one person saying it and it's so incongruous with everything I've heard about DMU.

"Students performing successive rotations at geographically distant sites from the University during their third year have reported discomfort with learning expectations (compared to their colleagues from other medical universities)." (page 93...link http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/upload...riterion-3.pdf)"

Ill send an email out to my classmates to post their feedback on here. Realize however that the above document states our collective concerns. Its been a problem for years now. I encourage you to read it.

 

[Skeeks]

I appreciate good sound advice. But they way you come off in posting this in a discussion board with no way for us to verify anything you say is a big red flag to me. Like Frky said how do we know anything you are saying is right?

If you really care about warning people about DMU then do it when you see interviewees at your school and can take them aside. Posting here is just a waste of everyone's time because we talk alot and learn nothing because nothing can be proven.

I apologize if I offend. I didn't mean to be a jerk I have just seen a lot of people trolling lately. With that said I shouldn't be so quick to judge.

In any event I am done posting on this. Continue if you wish, I will try and form my own opinion based on what I can find out.

 

[liberaldoc238]

I appreciate good sound advice. But they way you come off in posting this in a discussion board with no way for us to verify anything you say is a big red flag to me. Like Frky said how do we know anything you are saying is right?

If you really care about warning people about DMU then do it when you see interviewees at your school and can take them aside. Posting here is just a waste of everyone's time because we talk alot and learn nothing because nothing can be proven.

I apologize if I offend. I didn't mean to be a jerk I have just seen a lot of people trolling lately. With that said I shouldn't be so quick to judge.

In any event I am done posting on this. Continue if you wish, I will try and form my own opinion based on what I can find out.

Follow the link I provided above. Read the page. It clearly confirms that other students have had my concerns. This document is available on DMUs website. I had nothing to do with its creation. You don't have to even believe anything I say...just read for yourself. The document also mentions that it had conducted student surveys about the school but they do not post them anywhere. Wonder why?

I am done posting as well. If anyone has further questions feel free to private message me.

 

[liberaldoc238]

Follow the link I provided above. Read the page. It clearly confirms that other students have had my concerns. This document is available on DMUs website. I had nothing to do with its creation. You don't have to even believe anything I say...just read for yourself. The document also mentions that it had conducted student surveys about the school but they do not post them anywhere. Wonder why?

I am done posting as well. If anyone has further questions feel free to private message me.

I would agree with this post I found as well.

"I am a DMU student. Here is what I think:

1. First year is excellent. Most big and important classes like Anatomy and Physiology are organized and well taught. Administration works hard to create a great learning environment for students. Excellent study areas, excellent gym. One can totally concentrate on learning.
2. Second year classes could use a lot of improvement. Most are taught by clinicians and not academic physicians. What does this mean? This means that material is overly clinical, patient management and diagnosis of medical conditions is emphasized. This is not exactly what a 2nd year medical student needs to learn at that point. This also means that students who will be studying to take USMLE exams will need to invest more time on their own to learn pathophysiology, cell biology, genetics...
3. Third year is a lottery system. One can end up in Des Moines, Ohio, Michigan, and other areas of the country. There is a lot of variability among hospitals and teaching methods there. Would a student doing internal medicine rotation at Mayo learn the same things as a student doing the same rotation in a community hospital in Des Moines? Probably not.
4. Fourth year is mostly electives...pretty much do what you want. This is probably Ok because this year is all about the Match and interviewing. Flexibility this year is a good thing.

Please, when making statement like this or that school is good or bad, be specific. Back up your arguments with:
1. Board Pass Rates (COMLEX and USMLE)
2. Match lists
3. Grades (Pass/Fail...)
4. Clinical Rotations"

Alright...last post I promise. Good luck everyone.

 

[scmoia]

I'm going to disagree on liberaldoc238 on one point, there is likely not going to be a "flood" of DMU 4th year comments. Not because they do not share his views (I have yet to meet one who doesn't, though all things being possible--there may be one or two out there).

But first, because this is a pointless conversation. This is like talking to a smoker in the pre-contemplation stage about quitting. For those with an open mind the concern has been raised and hopefully they will seek out more confirmation on their own if they need it. For the rest, no amount of information/supporting testimony is going to make a decision. Ask yourself how many other other opinions would you need to hear? 10? Why that's barely 5% of the class--the other 95% are probably perfectly happy...20? 30? that's still a small sample size relatively...I bet that there are those out there who would need at least 50% of the class to convince them that this school has flaws.
But even then, this is your career, your life, your dream profession--if the school has some short-comings then you will just have to work harder to make up for it....etc, etc, etc...add in the sunken cost...I cannot change your mind

Liberaldoc thinks that if he gives people enough information, they will make good decisions. I don't.

Secondly, I'm busy. If he wasn't on break, he'd be busy too. 4th years have better things to do than to complain online about DMU--it's much more fun and cathartic to complain about DMU at a bar.

Thirdly, (and I know this is selfish) I don't know you...your time and money are yours to spend how you see fit.

But let me just say a few things: Why can you review hotels, restaurants, doctor's offices, walgreens, clothes, cars, toasters, and nail polish online, but if you offer a review of an institution where you will spend 4 yrs and a quarter of a million dollars--that is "crass"? Or was it that you didn't like what he had to say? We would all be better off if schools were held to the same market standards as your local diner...

I could talk about the quality of the rotation sites, small community hospitals for ER and surgery, outpatient offices for most everything else. The number of times students have had to drive 2 hours round trip to do a radiology, dermatology or family medicine rotations (things that should be easily available in a city the size of Des Moines).

But let me just throw out this little anecdote. A friend showed up at his clinic site only to find out--I **** you not--the doctor had DIED 3 months before. I could almost understand a few weeks...but 3 months...and then the office told him he should "go talk to [his] school" because it was upsetting the office staff...

Do what you want, but I wish I had heard this stuff 4 years ago too...

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Why can you review hotels, restaurants, doctor's offices, walgreens, clothes, cars, toasters, and nail polish online, but if you offer a review of an institution where you will spend 4 yrs and a quarter of a million dollars--that is "crass"? Or was it that you didn't like what he had to say? We would all be better off if schools were held to the same market standards as your local diner...

You can, but like buying a new set headphones, when 30 reviews say they are amazing, and one saying they are the worst piece of crap known to man, it makes me disregard the one, even if he is the only one who actually knows about headphones.

I have also been paid by companies to go online and write good reviews. This is analogous to a disgruntled 4th year that is blaming his school because he doesn't feel confident matching in a specialty that he isn't qualified for. This is probably not the case, but I don't know that.

In addition, liberaldoc says go to a school with an affiliated teaching hospital. Sounds good theoretically, but what happens if we don't have that choice? Then how is DMU different than other schools. What makes DMU so exponentially worse than another school without an affiliated hospital?

There are way too many variables to say that DMU sucks. Yes I am a first year, but it is easy to say "I should have studied more and gone to Harvard and went into neurosurgery" but that isn't DMUs fault. So which schools do it better, how, and where specifically is DMU doing worse than its peers? As a member of SGA, it is easier to bring up specifics so they can be solved.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Again, I'm not in much of a position to judge this, but doesn't DMU have a pretty decent match list?

I think they do. I've compared DMU's match list to KCUMBs... and they are pretty similar. The differences, I imagine, are simply due to different interests among the students rather than poor school reputation or anything else. I could be wrong about this, though.

I can't speak for everyone on here, but I would actually want additional feedback from other 3rd/4th years.

Same.

2. Second year classes could use a lot of improvement. Most are taught by clinicians and not academic physicians. What does this mean? This means that material is overly clinical, patient management and diagnosis of medical conditions is emphasized. This is not exactly what a 2nd year medical student needs to learn at that point. This also means that students who will be studying to take USMLE exams will need to invest more time on their own to learn pathophysiology, cell biology, genetics...

I heard this was a problem too and it was brought up by a second year during one of the Town Hall meetings with the COM Dean. It seems like the problem is being looked into. How much we can trust this, I don't know... but students are voicing their concerns quite a bit.

3. Third year is a lottery system. One can end up in Des Moines, Ohio, Michigan, and other areas of the country. There is a lot of variability among hospitals and teaching methods there. Would a student doing internal medicine rotation at Mayo learn the same things as a student doing the same rotation in a community hospital in Des Moines? Probably not.

But isn't it like this with most schools?

Please, when making statement like this or that school is good or bad, be specific. Back up your arguments with:
1. Board Pass Rates (COMLEX and USMLE)
2. Match lists
3. Grades (Pass/Fail...)
4. Clinical Rotations"

That's a good list to consider. Board Pass rates for DMU is pretty solid, and match lists look good as well. Grades are letters + P/F electives. I feel like the solid board scores show that the school does a good job of preparing students for boards... So the only real issue that I see here are the clinical rotations. Perhaps that's what the first year class needs to focus on pushing for/getting answers from the COM about?

Do what you want, but I wish I had heard this stuff 4 years ago too...

I know that often times 3rd/4th year students get disconnected from their campus while on rotations so they aren't up-to-date with the happenings of the college. I'm wondering if y'all are familiar with the things that have been going on. Not trying to sound like a jerk or like the school has dramatically changed since y'all finished second year; I'm legitimately curious as to how in the loop y'all are with the curriculum and administration and if things have changed since you left for rotations 1.5 years ago.

 

[seap3]

2nd year speaking up here...

I cannot comment on the quality of 3rd & 4th yr, but I had to do a lottery exemption for 3rd yr and it was easy and quickly approved for a location that worked for me. DMU clinical affairs is not trying to screw you over and has been readily available.

1st 2 yrs have been great with no major complaints. My only complaints would be the few mandatory classes - I've been spoiled and dislike having to drive in for the few classes with mandatory attendance.

OMM is not shoved down your throat. I think 1 hr for lecture and 1.5 hrs for lab per week is perfectly reasonable. I don't love OMM, but I find that a lot of the skills I learn are helpful in other areas. Increased palpation skills, knowledge of musculoskeletal system, neuro tests, etc. can be helpful even outside of OMM. And the instructors are really great - very nice and love to teach.

 

[Iliketoytles]

2nd year speaking up here...

I cannot comment on the quality of 3rd & 4th yr, but I had to do a lottery exemption for 3rd yr and it was easy and quickly approved for a location that worked for me. DMU clinical affairs is not trying to screw you over and has been readily available.

1st 2 yrs have been great with no major complaints. My only complaints would be the few mandatory classes - I've been spoiled and dislike having to drive in for the few classes with mandatory attendance.

OMM is not shoved down your throat. I think 1 hr for lecture and 1.5 hrs for lab per week is perfectly reasonable. I don't love OMM, but I find that a lot of the skills I learn are helpful in other areas. Increased palpation skills, knowledge of musculoskeletal system, neuro tests, etc. can be helpful even outside of OMM. And the instructors are really great - very nice and love to teach.

This echoes my feelings as a first year (including the spoiled mandatory attendance part )

 

[Angouleme]

Any idea what's the opinion on the rotations situation of the students that have gone to Michigan/Ohio? Going through the rotation sites list, it seems there are more inpatient hospitals, but then again, being a pre-med and all, I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about... Anybody?

 

[BabyDoc86]

Any idea what's the opinion on the rotations situation of the students that have gone to Michigan/Ohio? Going through the rotation sites list, it seems there are more inpatient hospitals, but then again, being a pre-med and all, I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about... Anybody?

I would like to know this as well, if anyone can comment.

I know that no single school is going to be absolutely perfect. I know there are going to be lots of hurdles, not just in the first two years. I know there's a good chance I'll have to set up some of my own rotations no matter which school I go to; and I can live with all of that. If the chief complaint is the rotations, yet students are still killing the boards and landing the residencies they want, then to me it doesn't seem like it's that big a deal... even if it's a headache going through it. The residency programs closet to my home and family, which I am hoping to get into several years from now, all have DMU students in them, so I'm not too worried.

 

[QualityProcess]

I'm very concerned about the questions raised here. Whether the review is valid or not, I had planned on going to DMU because I thought it was an established-enough school to have these things ironed out. All medical schools should have quality academic and clinical experiences for the amount of tuition money you're paying. Any concerns should be fixable with tweaks, not "we don't get the chance to learn in a hospital."

 

[Woland]

The post by LiberalDoc is quite interesting. I do appreciate the perspective of a 4th year.

I would like his perspective on
(1) Every (or nearly so) medical school is increasing enrollment by 5-20 person a year, be it MD or DO. Obviously they do it for money.
(2) Tuition increase of 1.5K a year is nothing compared to 2.5-5K increases a year in state schools surrounding the area I live. While UWashington, Seattle is still cheaper than DMU for WA residents, OHSU is not cheaper for OR residents. Out-of-state rates are murder at both schools. Both schools have minimal scholarship return to students (OHSU reportedly has none)
(2.a) Out-of-state rates in virtually all schools except TX and WI are higher than DMU tuition. Cost of living in Des Moine is neglibible compared to what I am used to having lived on East and West coast.
(3) Rotations issues are definately troublesome, however, I'd like your perspective on opinion of 3rd years at "teachning hospitals" that they rarely learn anything except how to insult themselves and bring coffee to interns/residents -- with all clinical case load taken up by people higher up in the food chain.
(4) With so much personal information already divulged by LiberalDoc, would you mind providing the name of EM programme that had such low opinion of DMU?
(5) Again, you perspective on opinion of most physicians I spoke with that they would much rather perdered clinical approach to 2nd year over academic, as it would provided them with better preparation for clinical years and residency?

 

[Woland]

A separate questions to now-2nd years. What did you guys do during your summer break -- work (if so where), travel (if so, did you do it using loan moneys) or...?

 

[Angouleme]

How do the selective rotations in 3rd year work? I understand they are limited to certain specialities, but do I get to choose/find the hospital/location?

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Maybe the education/experience sucks at DMU, I can't comment on that, but for the brief two week period I considered osteopathic school I acquired a match list for nearly every DO school in the nation and DMU'a was one of the best...

So even if it does suck, ya'll are still nabbing some of the best residencies in the DO world...

 

[outsider]

Every so often some 4th year gets an inflamation in the anus and finds it necessary to inform the world of the problems he/she has encountered making the schools he/she attended sound like the source of inflammation being experienced. Instead of being clarion clear with his/her complaints, he/she spews forth vitriolic diatribes which tend to cause an increase in postings expressing concern that a serious problem exists or, inthe case of this post, dismissing the inflammation as being caused by inadequate hygiene.

I have talked to many residents who have had to schedule their own 4th year rotations, many of which were in lands far, far away, and incurred great costs to complete. Some even went to rural hospitals and rotated with local DO's in their private clinics to gain experience.

4th year is what you make of it. If you got an inflammation, treat the inflammation in private. Telling the world about it is not a recognized treatment.

BTW, you did not mention how your MSPE compares or the specific concerns of PD's over your training. Facualty Advisors are frequently mere hand-holders for meek and timid souls