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D.P.T. versus Chiropractor
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That is a great question. When I worked for a franchised gym I was fortunate enough to have a great rehab facility located inside the gym itself. We had a great relationship with the chiro and PT that worked there.
In fact at one point the PT worked part time for me while still working for the rehab clinic. It was a great opportunity for him because once they fixed an issue say a shoulder injury; he was able to train them outside the clinic.
I do understand dysfunction. Perhaps not to the degree that you guys are studying or already know, but I can identify when a person has one and most of the time I know how to fix it. (ie.. over active traps, low back tightness, weak glutes, tight hamstrings) I know how to test and how to fix these issues. I've been training for 10+ years and I try to absorb everything I can whether it be from seminars or continuing ed.
In fact I'm about to drop the companies $$ I work for on a certification from the National Academy of Sports Medicine called Corrective Exercise Specialist. So now I'll have a cert to back what I'm doing.
Back to your question. what guidelines do I use? If someone comes to me with back pain, shoulder pain, hip pain, etc... I'll ask what they've done for it or who they have seen. If they've had unsuccessful treatment in the past by a PT or by a chiro I'll refer over to the guy I use since he has a DPT in his office as well.
99% of the people I've referred over to him have come back pain/injury free. We've worked together and when the person is to the point in their treatment where weight training can be reintroduced we do so.
Why not refer over to the PCP? That's tough. I do ask if they've spoke to their PCP. It's amazing some of the answers I get.
"he said if it hurts just leave it along for a few weeks and it should be fine." Or the one I hate the most "take these pain pills".
Here's one that tops the charts. I had a older lady come down who wanted to start working out. she was overweight. So as I normally do I ask about goals and injuries. she tells me about a shoulder problem she has that went untreated. she was driving her car and got t-boned on the passenger side. since she saw it coming she tensed up. the whole right side of her neck, shoulder and arm were tight and sometimes painful.
I ask her if she saw a therapist about it and she said "my doctor told me to rest it and gave me some pain pills. he said I really didn't need rehab for this injury". So here she is, months later still in pain.
Some of you dislike Chiros? I dislike PCP's. They should be called PPP. Pain pill pushers.
In fact at one point the PT worked part time for me while still working for the rehab clinic. It was a great opportunity for him because once they fixed an issue say a shoulder injury; he was able to train them outside the clinic.
I do understand dysfunction. Perhaps not to the degree that you guys are studying or already know, but I can identify when a person has one and most of the time I know how to fix it. (ie.. over active traps, low back tightness, weak glutes, tight hamstrings) I know how to test and how to fix these issues. I've been training for 10+ years and I try to absorb everything I can whether it be from seminars or continuing ed.
In fact I'm about to drop the companies $$ I work for on a certification from the National Academy of Sports Medicine called Corrective Exercise Specialist. So now I'll have a cert to back what I'm doing.
Back to your question. what guidelines do I use? If someone comes to me with back pain, shoulder pain, hip pain, etc... I'll ask what they've done for it or who they have seen. If they've had unsuccessful treatment in the past by a PT or by a chiro I'll refer over to the guy I use since he has a DPT in his office as well.
99% of the people I've referred over to him have come back pain/injury free. We've worked together and when the person is to the point in their treatment where weight training can be reintroduced we do so.
Why not refer over to the PCP? That's tough. I do ask if they've spoke to their PCP. It's amazing some of the answers I get.
"he said if it hurts just leave it along for a few weeks and it should be fine." Or the one I hate the most "take these pain pills".
Here's one that tops the charts. I had a older lady come down who wanted to start working out. she was overweight. So as I normally do I ask about goals and injuries. she tells me about a shoulder problem she has that went untreated. she was driving her car and got t-boned on the passenger side. since she saw it coming she tensed up. the whole right side of her neck, shoulder and arm were tight and sometimes painful.
I ask her if she saw a therapist about it and she said "my doctor told me to rest it and gave me some pain pills. he said I really didn't need rehab for this injury". So here she is, months later still in pain.
Some of you dislike Chiros? I dislike PCP's. They should be called PPP. Pain pill pushers.
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Your inability to critically read my posts and decipher the intended meaning is now at an amazing level. 100% of the time you respond by taking something I have posted, churn it up into a ridiculous statement, and putting it here as inappropriate fodder. Those of you reading these posts, go back and double check. Amazing.
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Well, just to clarify, my point was not that PCP's are the best starting point for movement dysfunction. I agree, they are not well trained in it, and for the most part refer right out to PT. My point was that you are not qualified to determine what the cause of their dysfunction is, so how are you deciding whether to recommend PT or chiropractic to your client? It sounds like you mainly refer to a chiro w/ a PT in the office?
I think it's great you recognize dysfunction, but it makes me concerned that you believe you can diagnose the cause and treat it. Muscular activity is only a part of what rehab is.
As to the CES, I was under the impression that this course was primarily designed to treat people who are post- rehab or who have a diagnosed musculoskeletal disorder?
Hope you don't take this as an attack- all of us have the responsibility to be educated and learn about the other fields we work with.
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A couple of points to add to this now largely unproductive thread. First, I usually comment on your posts line by line to make it crystal clear which of your comments I am responding to, thereby reducing any ambiguity. Still, you somehow claim that I "churn" your posts into "ridiculous statements".
Second and as it relates to your statement above, you said "Because he's a chiropractor, and yet he states 95% of his research yields employment potential at subluxation station high volume mills." If, as you clearly imply, 95% of his research is yielding employment potential at subluxation station high volume mills, the readers of this thread are to assume that 95% of chiropractic practices are these types of practices. So, I was simply pointing out that if this were the case then 95% of his current classmates would believe in the "curing a cold with a cervical adjustment" statement, yet surely they don't.
You can continue to suggest to the prospective students reading along that the "vast majority" (your quote) of chiropractic practices are unethical, et cetera. But it doesn't mean they have to believe you. You seem to take it personally when a student chimes in that they've had positive experiences with chiropractors. Sure, it would be great if everyone just followed along with your sentiments, but your sentiments just aren't reality. Are there bad chiros out there? Yes. Are there more than I would like? Yes. But you continue to repeat, to no avail, that just about every chiropractor out there is a scumbag with the exception of a chosen few. This, again, speaks directly to your "PT vs. Chiro" mentality, which has permeated this thread and misleads young readers who come here to gather information.
And, if I may ask, why does your avatar info state that you only have 30-something posts in 2 1/2 years, with at least half of them coming in this "PT vs. Chiropractor" thread, if you don't have a negative bias toward chiropractors? This particular thread for some reason seems to have lit a fire under your butt and has really motivated you. Am I wrong?
oh no, absolutely not! I don't feel attacked at all! Yes I refer to a chiro who has a PT in the office. but also the chiro I refer to is an applied kinesiologist.
Also lets clarify one thing. i don't diagnose! I can't tell you how many times someone comes up to me complaining about their back hurting, neck hurting, etc.... and wanting to know what they did or how to fix it. My answer has ALWAYS been: "I don't know, best to talk to a doctor about that, I can only guess but that's not good enough.
So again, I don't diagnose.
Expand on your statement "not qualified to determine what their dysfunction is"? I see muscular dysfunction daily in uncoordinated or people with poor posture. These people do not need to see a PT to fix this. Shown correct posture, stretches, exercises to activate muscles that aren't firing can fix this.
As a trainer I still see muscular dysfunction in a persons inability to do a push up properly, or their inability to do a squat properly. There are things we as trainers look for when they do these in correctly:
-Winging of the scapula when doing a push up,
-coming up on the toes when they try to do a squat
This is the type of dysfunction I see and can work on. Flexibility issues related to low back, weak glutes and tight hamstrings-muscular imbalances. Again another example.
Muscular activity is also a part of personal training, not just rehab.
Teaching someone to engage muscles properly to stop dysfunction is part of our job too. a client who has a weak core and flexibility issues and perhaps a tight or sore back related to their weak core IMO is not a candidate for PT. If this same person is experiencing numbness, tingling in the back/hip/leg or foot area along with the weak core, etc.... Then yes. they are a candidate for PT or some other form of intervention.
the CES description off the website:
The NASM Corrective Exercise Specialist (NASM-CES) Advanced Specialization was developed in response the growing need for professionals with the ability to assist clients experiencing musculoskeletal impairments, muscle imbalances or rehabilitation concerns. The NASM-CES provides the advanced knowledge, skills and abilities to successfully work with clients suffering from musculoskeletal impairments, imbalances or post-rehabilitation concerns.
The Course
With eleven modules of information on important corrective exercise topics such as movement assessments, inhibitory techniques, muscle activation techniques and common musculoskeletal impairments, the CES personal training program arms professionals with the most innovative education tools and techniques for optimal results. The NASM-CES is delivered online for your convenience.
the requirements:
A current NASM-CPT certification, or
REPs Level 3 or higher credential (candidates outside of the US only), or
4-year collegiate degree in related field
Seems we've started a sub topic within a topic. I hope the OP doesn't mind
Also lets clarify one thing. i don't diagnose! I can't tell you how many times someone comes up to me complaining about their back hurting, neck hurting, etc.... and wanting to know what they did or how to fix it. My answer has ALWAYS been: "I don't know, best to talk to a doctor about that, I can only guess but that's not good enough.
So again, I don't diagnose.
Expand on your statement "not qualified to determine what their dysfunction is"? I see muscular dysfunction daily in uncoordinated or people with poor posture. These people do not need to see a PT to fix this. Shown correct posture, stretches, exercises to activate muscles that aren't firing can fix this.
As a trainer I still see muscular dysfunction in a persons inability to do a push up properly, or their inability to do a squat properly. There are things we as trainers look for when they do these in correctly:
-Winging of the scapula when doing a push up,
-coming up on the toes when they try to do a squat
This is the type of dysfunction I see and can work on. Flexibility issues related to low back, weak glutes and tight hamstrings-muscular imbalances. Again another example.
Muscular activity is also a part of personal training, not just rehab.
Teaching someone to engage muscles properly to stop dysfunction is part of our job too. a client who has a weak core and flexibility issues and perhaps a tight or sore back related to their weak core IMO is not a candidate for PT. If this same person is experiencing numbness, tingling in the back/hip/leg or foot area along with the weak core, etc.... Then yes. they are a candidate for PT or some other form of intervention.
the CES description off the website:
The NASM Corrective Exercise Specialist (NASM-CES) Advanced Specialization was developed in response the growing need for professionals with the ability to assist clients experiencing musculoskeletal impairments, muscle imbalances or rehabilitation concerns. The NASM-CES provides the advanced knowledge, skills and abilities to successfully work with clients suffering from musculoskeletal impairments, imbalances or post-rehabilitation concerns.
The Course
With eleven modules of information on important corrective exercise topics such as movement assessments, inhibitory techniques, muscle activation techniques and common musculoskeletal impairments, the CES personal training program arms professionals with the most innovative education tools and techniques for optimal results. The NASM-CES is delivered online for your convenience.
the requirements:
A current NASM-CPT certification, or
REPs Level 3 or higher credential (candidates outside of the US only), or
4-year collegiate degree in related field
- Athletic training
- Biology
- Biomechanics
- Chiropractic
- Community health
- Ergonomics
- Exercise physiology
- Exercise science
- Health science
- Human movement science
- Kinesiology
- Nutrition
- Physical education
- Physical therapy
- Sport science
Seems we've started a sub topic within a topic. I hope the OP doesn't mind
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Who cares when I post? Ad hominem. Attack the person, not the argument. Worked for you so far facetguy. Hmm, well I was going to avoid it, but let me try using your response tactic. At the beginning of the thread you stated subluxation was a term taken by the medical community but "don't worry...a chiropractor knows the difference". Reply 37. And before that, a poster had an inquiry about excessive adjustments causing arthritis. Your response "don't worry that won't happen." What does that imply? That you perform and believe in repetitive adjustments, that's what. And the name "facetguy". Isn't the facet the locale whereupon the chiropractor skillfully palpates the subluxation prior to reducing it with an adjustment?? Let me guess, you use the subluxation as your primary objective finding? Are you able to own up to this, here on this forum with your next reply, if you truly furnish this as a finding with your patients. Can you state this here with confidence and reiterate that you feel ethical about the diagnosis? Is this why you state subluxation mills don't exist where you practice, take the facts as I post them and perform ad hominem attacks on me and cont. deny these intrinsic problems in the profession? You have the same posting demeanor I've seen over and over and over again. Friendly, throw in some humor, almost benevolent. But anyone mention high volume practice mills and they receive a character attack. Hate to tell you facetguy but your posts will not affect the information I provide here. And your motive is suspect. Anyone who reads the previous posts in there entirety will see that. That's why you choose the forums on which you post, i.e. a student forum. Why don't I post here? I usually peruse rehabedge, evidence in motion, somasimple, chirotalk. But I need to furnish a context for these students. As you can see, they are listening. The subluxation reduction "treatment technology" was originated in 1895 and has not changed in the primary philosophical premise.
Here's another story from my experience. In 2004/2005, I was a member of chiroweb, an online forum for discussion of any chiropractic topic. Along with numerous other chiropractors, who were working for reform just as Kyle mentioned, I was kicked off. I emailed the other chiroweb members who were booted, all chiropractors, and we were kicked off because prospective chiropractic students may peruse the website, and any post perceived as negative may serve as a deterrent to that effort. I was polite in my posting, discussed MSK topics and expressed support for reform. I did also request higher level evidence regarding the detection of subluxations but none was available. I emailed the national chiropractic legislation body in 2004 and requested such research and I received a packed of propaganda. Summaries of research, advertisements for laypersons basically. I called back and requested the research in entirety so I could analyze the testing methodology. Not happening. I posted on chiroweb that my perception was addressing the lack of research re: the subluxation would need to be a primary need to promulgate acceptance of the subluxation in the mainstream medical community as this is the basis of the profession and I was ejected summarily. Reform will be hard to come by. The moderator and creator of chirotalk has been actively engaged in litigation to reform the profession for years. He's still working. Even has a financial fund that accepts donations to cont. his effort. Check it out. I could still discuss this topic further and in much greater detail.
Here's another story from my experience. In 2004/2005, I was a member of chiroweb, an online forum for discussion of any chiropractic topic. Along with numerous other chiropractors, who were working for reform just as Kyle mentioned, I was kicked off. I emailed the other chiroweb members who were booted, all chiropractors, and we were kicked off because prospective chiropractic students may peruse the website, and any post perceived as negative may serve as a deterrent to that effort. I was polite in my posting, discussed MSK topics and expressed support for reform. I did also request higher level evidence regarding the detection of subluxations but none was available. I emailed the national chiropractic legislation body in 2004 and requested such research and I received a packed of propaganda. Summaries of research, advertisements for laypersons basically. I called back and requested the research in entirety so I could analyze the testing methodology. Not happening. I posted on chiroweb that my perception was addressing the lack of research re: the subluxation would need to be a primary need to promulgate acceptance of the subluxation in the mainstream medical community as this is the basis of the profession and I was ejected summarily. Reform will be hard to come by. The moderator and creator of chirotalk has been actively engaged in litigation to reform the profession for years. He's still working. Even has a financial fund that accepts donations to cont. his effort. Check it out. I could still discuss this topic further and in much greater detail.
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Mine was simply a question, a curiosity, not an ad hominem attack. I just found it interesting that you post almost nothing in 2 1/2 years, then enter a flurry of posts in a "PT vs. Chiro" thread. But you're right, when you post is not important at all.
I think you are confusing a few things here. First, in DaVinci Code-like fashion, you have indeed solved the mystery of the username Facetguy. You may have missed your calling as a detective. Facet joints are anatomical structures that show up in any anatomy text, although you may see them referred to as zygapophyseal or apophyseal joints instead, as you know. They are not some imaginary chiropractic phenomenon. We know that facet joints are important pain generators; just ask any pain management physician why they target facet joints with a variety of procedures. We (meaning the scientific community at large, not just chiropractors) also know that facet joint capsules are loaded with mechanoreceptors, adding to their functional and clinical importance. Yes, facet joints are a key target of spinal manipulation. The old notions about chiropractic involved a vertebra 'jumping out of place' and pinching a nerve, leading to all manner of dis-ease; this is the subluxation. Chiropractors would then simply 'pop it back in', curing all ills. Today, however, we use a different model that utilizes modern knowledge of neuromechanics. Spinal manipulation's effects are more about articular neurology and biomechanics than un-pinching nerves. This may be where you are getting hung up. I'd invite you to delve into this type of material to help you get over the 'subluxation' fixation. And, as I've said before, I don't use the term 'subluxation', so why would I use it as my "primary objective finding" or diagnosis?
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And here's where I get objective again. Ethical chiropractors have great MSK dx and tx skills. Nonethical chiropractors still have good MSK dx and tx skills but they spend too much time aggressively marketing subluxations to improve their treatment skills using private study and CEU's for addressing the genuine MSK pathology. Chiropractors take a lot of xrays, they can read radiographs quite well inc identifying the approp anatomy, knowing red flags there. Better than many HCP including NP, PA, PCP, PT's. Chiropractors and physical therapists generally have better MSK skills than many medical professions, actually the best with the exception of ortho docs. I don't want to stray off topic, but the referrals I receive from NP, PA, PCP for adhesive capsulitis is usually bicipital tendonitis or something else completely different. I would trust a chiropractor with a MSK diagnosis over most health care practitioners at large and their skills with manipulation are typically unmatched in general. There is now a PT fellowship program basically to receive training and certification in manipulation. This is a route I will pursue after I finish my few remaining courses at the Physical Institute of Art for manual therapy certification. Anyway, DC's have better MSK skills than physical therapists who have not worked in outpatient including home health, long term care, hosp including acute and cardiac floors. Pediatric therapists are generally fairly good, and outpatient physical therapists are great. I've had many discussions regarding managing patient care and I have many chiropractic friends, not foes, on various forums where we discuss patients honoring confidentiality of course, often.
The profession as I have stated, that's the rub. Ask Kyle. Go to chirotalk. Don't listen to facetguy. He is representing a single testimonial and it's biased at that.
The profession as I have stated, that's the rub. Ask Kyle. Go to chirotalk. Don't listen to facetguy. He is representing a single testimonial and it's biased at that.
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Everyone read facet's last post. He denies personal attack and you can see it's laced with it. He cont uses ridicule, denies this, calls me foolish for that and this does confirm his lack of objectivity. Intent to persuade, not inform. Read my posts, I avoid this throughout.
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Up until that last swipe at me personally, I agree with everything in this post. And this is how this thread began. It all went downhill when you repeatedly went into a mode of insisting that "the vast majority" of chiropractors are unethical dirt bags. THAT is where I began to have a problem with your statements, which turned more into anti-chiro propaganda and less objective information for prospective students. You just went too far in those posts.
I would also include physiatrists in the mix of top MSK diagnosticians. For me as chiro, physiatrists often add more to the case than orthos, unless it's a no-brainer surgical issue. I, too, often get incorrect MSK diagnoses from PCPs, but it doesn't make them stupid or bad people, as you'll agree.
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Not only was the post to which you refer not "laced with" personal attacks, it was completely absent of any such attacks. Where did I attack you? I did joke about the DaVinci Code/detective thing, but geez, it was an attempt at some humor. And me giving an explanation about something doesn't equal an attack against you.
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Well of course you agreed with my last post. I stated all of the positives of the chiropractic profession, as a product of my research, as I strive for objectivity regarding this topic as aforementioned. It's pretty easy for you to agree with these right. It's easy to make these points the only topics of discussion and I have encountered this frequently. But that doesn't represent the entire picture. And yes, physiatrists do furnish more specific/refined scripts in general to outpatient. The scripts are indiscernable from other physicians in other settings however. They are not as frequent a referral source as other sources for me personally. The reason you perceive the "last part of my post" as a jab, is that is where we will disagree every time. Subluxation mills do exist, they represent the primary chiropractic philosophy, and you can deny in any variety of replies with ad hominem attacks for example. It doesn't change the fact that I am correct. Any viewer here can confirm this with a little due diligence.
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I do believe I have conveyed the basics. Facetguy and I will agree to disagree, if anyone here has the further desire to pursue this topic the information is available in multiple places with some research. PM Kyle DC if you want as a start, go to chirotalk also if desired. There are other additional topics, even facetguy did address some of these in the beginning i.e. lack of admission standards to matriculate into chiropractic school. Just need the credit to assume the student loans. Other shady practices in school include the need for students to recruit their own patients during the last semesters to practice adjustments/deliver treatment, there are practicals/oral exams that unlike physical therapy school cost additional money and need to be repaid for and retaken if flunked. These are actually quite expensive. The internal curriculum minus the philosophy courses are similar to PT school; chiropractors and the schools almost always boast that the didactics are more intense than med school as a prospective student recruiting tool. Ask any of the DC to MD posters here about that notion. Anyone have any more questions?
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i've never been exposed to chiro daily work/dealings but i would def be interested, esp with techniques of skills and tips for certain areas to get a cavitation (even though it's not clinically important). any input on your idea behind the effectiveness/need for cavitations? what area of the body is easiest/hardest to get a cavitation. just wondering
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Audible cavitations do not seem to be clinically important. And bear in mind that lots of different techniques work but involve no audible cavitation at all. Having said that, there is no doubt that many patients will believe that an audible is necessary and will be disappointed when one doesn't occur. I think that, at least in some cases, hearing an audible enhances the clinical response from a placebo perspective. "Yesssss! I heard it crack, Doc, so you put it back in, right? That's what I needed and I'll definitely feel better now". Sounds kinda goofy but I bet it affects some people that way.
As far as easiest/hardest areas of the body, it all depends on the patient and varies considerably.
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I typed up a nice response but it got vaporized when I lost my internet connection for some reason. So here's the short version:
Agreed:
*You enjoy your career as a PT, and it's a good thing when one selects a career they end up loving. This is good.
*You are proud of your personal accomplishments as a PT, as you should be.
*PT is an excellent career choice and should be looked into by prospective students.
*The chiro profession would do well to examine its admissions standards and continue to improve its clinical phases of the educational process.
Disagreed:
*"The vast majority" of chiropractors are unethical. This is completely your opinion, is in no way objective despite your repeated protestations to the contrary, and is flat wrong. Should there be any unethical chiropractors? Of course not, and I say string 'em up. But don't lead our young friends here to believe that, save for a select few, all chiros are dirt bags.
*"Unethical subluxation mills" are the predominant type of practice. Again, your opinion and a wrong one at that. Perhaps these types of practices get the most attention, especially among new chiro grads looking for work, which may explain your inaccuracies here.
*All chiropractors utilize outdated beliefs. As stated elsewhere, the current model of chiropractic utilizes the latest science by which most (although sadly not all) DCs practice.
*Any response to your posts is some kind of ad hominem attack on you. You state that you wish to provide information to prospective students, which is a noble thing to do. However, when that information is corrected by someone who is actually in the chiropractic profession, it shouldn't be seen as an attack. Prospective students should get an accurate picture of all sides, accurate being the key word here.
Regarding DCs having to pay extra for practical/oral exams, that was not my experience at all. Now, I have been out of school for some time, so I can't say for certain what happens now. I can say that Board exams were always an extra expense, but that's the case in all professions, as they aren't administered by the school but rather by some outside regulatory body (State Board, etc.) Perhaps PTs don't take Board exams, I don't know.
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Let me rephrase that to be more accurate: the vast majority of chiropractors utilize subluxation theory to explain pt presenting symptoms i.e. pain in addition to medical dx i.e. asthma, sinus infections and advocate for ongoing chiropractic adjustment maintenance plans to optimize health. Because many chiropractic advocates truly believe in the adjustment and are advocating for this service in which they believe, the unethical tag may be more suitably replaced with chiropractic as alternative medicine, holistic, or even non evidence based for this philosophical majority of chiropractic. The unethical component does also exist with the financial bottom line but I believe my above revision is pertinent at this time.
New students are the least utilized source in my research as they should be. The posters at chirotalk and chirobase have been in the profession for years, are currently in the profession but report cognitive dissonance from selling subluxation based treatment, or have changed professions altogether and are anchored with student loans making changing jobs i.e. going back to school difficult.
Anyone who reads my previous posts will know this is not a belief I espouse. I maintain my stance that your replies represent lack of critical analysis of my posts with a response style that attempts to make me look extremist or foolish.
Basically, I state subluxation selling is the current primary chiropractic philosophy and contemporary students are trying to avoid this paradigm due to the stigma and lack of research and you state it has been predominantly phased out. I think this would represent the most precise basis of our disagreements.
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I don't doubt you when you say you have looked into chiropractic, spoken to chiropractors, etc. But I have been inside chiropractic for almost 20 years now (including chiro school years), and I can tell you that most of the profession is moving toward more science-based practice. It's clear in the education, in the post-graduate coursework, in the sentiments of virtually all the chiros that I know. 30 or 40 years ago, that would not have been true. Sure, we can point to examples of shady practice management companies, philosophically-based seminars, and the like.
Can we at least agree that the chiropractic profession is moving in the right direction as a whole?
You've mentioned chirotalk numerous times now. Although I've never been there, can I assume that these are either chiropractors who are having trouble maintaining a practice, who have failed in practice, or who simply realize now that they have chosen the wrong profession but it's too late to change course? I'm willing to bet that that describes the majority of chiros at such websites. Believe me, if any of those guys were making a good living, they wouldn't be involved in such a website to begin with. And the fact that they aren't making a good living shouldn't lead one to conclude that science-based chiros can't make it in the world. Or perhaps they just rail against all the bogus claims that some chiros make, which I wouldn't disagree with. Again, I haven't checked it out (and don't plan to), so I can't say.
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facetguy,
I've read most of your posts and it seems like you either live in a bubble or refuse to accept what is going on around you.
The term "mixer" and "straight" is widely used in chiropractic...although it is usually the "straights" that use this terminology.
And most chiropractors still practice the whole subluxation is the cause of all dis-ease and the germ theory is false, etc. If you don't believe me then check out this link: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chiropractic&search_type= . It is a search I did on youtube for "chiropractic". As you watch video after video you will find chiropractors who still sell the idea that a back free of subluxation is the key to health and that subluxations are the cause of all disease.
I've read most of your posts and it seems like you either live in a bubble or refuse to accept what is going on around you.
The term "mixer" and "straight" is widely used in chiropractic...although it is usually the "straights" that use this terminology.
And most chiropractors still practice the whole subluxation is the cause of all dis-ease and the germ theory is false, etc. If you don't believe me then check out this link: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chiropractic&search_type= . It is a search I did on youtube for "chiropractic". As you watch video after video you will find chiropractors who still sell the idea that a back free of subluxation is the key to health and that subluxations are the cause of all disease.
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"Straights" do use the term "straight", and I've said this. No problem there.
It's when you (and some others) say "most chiropractors still practice..." that you get off-track. I'm not going to rehash everything in this thread, but my position is that it's not most and the numbers who do are shrinking. And the germ theory being false? Are you referring to DCs from the 1930s or what?? All chiro students take microbiology, for goodness sake!
As to your youtube link (which is a top-quality reference, I must say), all I saw was a variety of chiropractic/manipulation-related videos. I don't get your point.
And it's not that I live in a bubble or refuse to accept anything. It's that I've gone through chiro school, I've practiced for quite a few years now, I've treated thousands of patients, I follow the chiro-related literature, I go to post-grad classes, I know and speak and interact with other DCs daily, etc. I don't get my info from SDN or YouTube or 'a guy I know's cousin's brother-in-law...'. That's where I'm coming from. Where do you get your info?
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The point of the youtube reference is that youtube is open to everyone from anywhere. Theoretically it represents the population. I have watched all the videos of the first page. Some were videos that showed what manipulation is...ok good. Then there are some that served to educate people on why chiropractors do what they do. There was only 1 explanation of chiropractic adjustment that was not quackery while 6-7 were quacks. How do you explain the disparity on youtube?
I know a chiropractor personally and even he says that there are a lot of quacks in chiropractic. He always makes it seem like he, a chiropractor who practices using science and not religion, is the minority.
I know a chiropractor personally and even he says that there are a lot of quacks in chiropractic. He always makes it seem like he, a chiropractor who practices using science and not religion, is the minority.
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Members of chirotalk, as I have mentioned, have various backgrounds. Either these DC's couldn't make it, using the evidence/science based approach, and were compelled but just couldn't resort to selling subluxations....or they caved in and are doing it and experiencing daily cognitive dissonance. Some were associates and were informed to set up booths in malls to recruit patients, and others were told to join Scientology as an employment prereq. Other posters are making too much money to leave the profession and wished they could get out, and other posters there defend the future of chiropractic much like you are doing. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of chiropractic members. The context of their backgrounds are just very diversified. I have heard insane testimonials i.e. the hummm money chant. School pep rallies, morning prayers with staff in the clinics, hazing new associates, all revolving around the subluxation as a selling point. I've heard schools encourage indoctrination and students observe that fellow students seem to become brainwashed. There are online diaries written by patients and chiropractors that are posted in the form of links from the website, that reveal the goings on behind the curtain. Have you heard of those who subscribe to the chiropractic "Big Idea?" Have you or do you know someone who has read the "Little green books?" Have you heard of "Turning on the power of the innate?" From my research, this stuff is everywhere where chiropractic is found. Not an obscure 1930's outdated paradigm. Believe it or not, facetguy, if you could prove me wrong I would be okay with that. I have yet to find a chiropractor over the years who can produce real evidence to the contrary. The more I dig, the more difficult I feel reform is going to be.
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Okay, now observe DPMhopeful. Pre-podiatry. Not a physical therapist, PT student or other commonly construed health care provider with any sort of "chiropractic bashing" agenda. He did a little research. Searched youtube. Hey, that's something, it is a fair starting point. As facetguy pointed out, it is not the most profound source of research, but it's pretty contemporary and mainstream so let's just see what's there. Per DPMhopeful, out of first 8 or so videos, 7 or so show chiropractors pushing the subluxation model of dis-ease to represent their philosophic treatment model. Facetguy, you challenge DPMhopeful as you have me, and maintain your previous stance without wavering. Hmmm, facetguy, and all the other viewers reading these posts, you have to admit that DPMhopefuls finding is interesting however if you are objective considering the previous discussions. If subluxation reduction was a 1930-40's style approach to chiropractic patient management, wouldn't an unbiased viewer be surprised the videos are so lopsided re: content and theme? Would an objective observer determine this might warrant more research if you are to truly be accurately informed?
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Actually, you stated previously that this was a term used by nonchiropractors. I mean, reread the posts. If you do, you will see that my reply did demonstrate my jaw dropped on that one. Did you change your stance on this particular piece of internal vernacular? That peaks my interest as well, considering the only variable that changed is the presence of an additional poster with some background in the discussion at hand.
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Okay, good. Now we have accumulated for lack of a better word data in the form of testimonials among other things. Not a reliable source of information, but I didnt' go to chiropractic school and consequently do not have firsthand experience. And a philosophical debate doesn't lend itself toward other forms of experiment. So let's try to organize our present stats. We have the perspective of facetguy, a chiropractor, and KyleDC, a chiropractor, as we've seen on this thread. They are in opposition, I won't elaborate as there is no need. Now review the evidence re: those who agree with Kyle, including my stance, and recall I claim a lot of time invested in this matter as well as a disgruntled friend in chiropractic. The same for DPMhopeful. Now lets acknowledge that we have at the very least 100's of testimonials on chirotalk and chirobase which currently do still exist and can serve anytime as potential blogging resources for anyone here for that matter. And don't forget about the youtube reference as aforementioned and what the discovery was from that initiative. Facetguy, can you give me something to read, review, observe or hear that supports your stance? It's just, none of my research supports your statement of purpose.
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This was the whole "I guess" thing we went through earlier. If you go back and read my posts on that issue (which I'll leave to you), you'll see that I commented that 'straights' do use that term. It's the 'mixer' term that is more of a non-chiro label. I'm glad I "peaked" your interest.
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I practice in a no-nonsense MSK fashion and am doing fine. I'm no millionairre, but MSK chiros can do pretty well. Why are these chirotalk DCs different?
As far as the money chant, pep rallies, prayers, etc., I strongly suspect that comes out of one (maybe 2) chiro schools. Perhaps you live near these schools, thus the larger local influence, I don't know. But be aware that the school primarily associated with this stuff recently lost its accreditation, had to change leadership and was forced to shape up or close its doors for good. Years ago, that stuff was overlooked or tolerated. Not today. The profession is improving itself, which has been my point all along. This should be part of the "real evidence" you are looking for. Chiro school curricula is more evidence, as is the quality and number of publications relating to chiropractic care. This issue doesn't exactly lend itself to a randomized trial, so I'm not sure what type of evidence you're looking for.
The Scientology thing still baffles me. Surely this was a single case, as there is no other basis for such a story.
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The 1930s comment was directed at your germ theory statement. And trying to make a YouTube search into some form of definitive proof that chiropractors should all be burned at the stake is beneath you.
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Well to begin with, why don't you try reading the scientific literature. And yes, mine is a testimonial, as is yours. What you continue to present is not objective information, as you still claim. We can let the readers decide for themselves the credibility of everyone's statements in this thread.
And, with regard to the chirotalk site and others like them, who is more likely to make more noise: happy chiropractors or disgruntled chiropractors? Happy patients or disgruntled patients? That's a no-brainer. So let's not get all distorted in our belief about things.
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Hate to interject, but for DPTs and MDs I have not seen anyone complaining that they can't pay their loans off, or that the whole field's a scam. Lots of people complain about the working conditions in the MD field, and how a lot of medical care is so inefficient that it's basically a waste of time...but at least there are consistent attempts to base care off of scientific evidence.
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I had stated earlier that PT (and also medicine, which I didn't include at that time) is a safer professional choice than chiropractic. It is easier to make money as a PT or MD, no doubt. And it's easier to fail as a DC. As such, some DCs apparently are unable to pay off their student loans, which is too bad.
I think most of the "chiropractic is a scam" sentiments stem from 1) a fairly long history of non-scientific chiropractic claims which, while having been replaced today with science-based thinking, have been perpetuated in the minds of many nonetheless, and 2) a basic lack of understanding of what chiropractors do (believe me, I've heard some really dumb things from SDNers who "know what they're talking about"), which may simply be a subset of reason 1) or a product of just repeating what someone else has told you (not you you but the generic you).
Yours are good points.
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It is beneath me? I guess I will have to repeat myself. That's becoming very common with you, as I am convinced you don't actually read my posts, just devise retorts to "win" this debate. It is not a profound resource. I did admit this. I acknowledged with great detail this is simply a mainstream and contemporary location online where posters may give viewer some detail a slice of chiropractic life. As you reiterated this topic at hand does not lend itself to a, for example, a randomized double blind study design with a placebo. So I advocated for using all sources one could find, recognizing the inherent flaws i.e. huge collection of testimonials, and seeing what we have. So, I repeat, can you support your stance with anything? A chiro school who has a website that rebukes subluxation theory for example? How about a chiropractic reformist website that exists in conjunction with chirotalk? I mean, anything??
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I am now going to critically analyze facetguys posts line by line as he does to me to illustrate why I am positive that he does not read my posts and that his statements are basically intended to "win the debate" and diminish my credibility rather than actually truly discuss the topic at hand.
This is a classic example of why I know you don't critically read my posts. You reported that this discussion did not lend itself to scientific experiment. AFTER I had made the same assertion. And then I requested any support you could generate that I, and the viewers here, could analyze and you respond with this statement. Your are creating a circular debate, I keep repeating myself and coming right back to where I started.
I stated this. No need to repeat this as if I did not.
I stated I strive for objectivity. I reported the information that I did present was the best available, i.e. large collection of testimonials and online resources, as well as many years of time invested on the topic, discussions with personal DC friends, and Kyle DC posts helped I kinda think. Once again, you don't actually read my posts.
I have stated this before. You have stated this before. Why repeat it? It labourious.
Seriously. So it's just the Sad Sam's making all the noise including Kyle, youtube, chirotalk, my friend (DC), and someone else here had a friend (also DC) with the same type of report as well. So the student loan nonrepayment statistic doesn't strike you as odd then? Chirotalk just had a poll of the current members and the attrition rate of the graduating classes of those who participated was around 50%. That means, if a class graduated say 50 students, then only 25 were still doing chiropractic for whatever reason 5 years after graduating. Why would that be? Can you generate a statistic to the contrary? I would love to hear it. And I will actually read it with a critical eye, and not respond defensively I guarantee you that. Let's just say, maybe it's more than just Debbie Downers making all the noise.
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Without picking any side or bashing any profession, I was curious to know why chiropractic degrees are only offered at small-private institutions and not at large-public ones. I realized this a while ago while talking to a friend who was thinking about going to chiro school but I never figured out why.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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There was a chiropractic school that did try to affiliate itself with an accredited four year institution. This proposal was considered and refused by the undergraduate college; I was informed in a heresay online fashion without looking into it myself that this was due to the fact this institution was affiliated with other mainstream medical degrees and this may affect the reputation of the university. I believe this was in Arizona, don't recall, this issue is at least a year ago. I think maybe two. You could find out with some online investigation in less than 30 minutes I'm sure.
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Florida State, a few congressmen were DCs so they pushed it hard until they got huge reaction.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/12/29/State/Chiropractic_school_a.shtml
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Wow, 2004. I guess a little longer than 1 - 2 years ago, time flies.
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as many say pts are glofied gym instructors don t bash chiro only since pt schools are cranking out pts pt profession is getting flooded and soon what you say about chiro will happen to pts i see it now in nyc and other big cities in pa pts were even trying to get eh right to manipulate the spine,,,if it didn t work then why use manipulation and fight like heck to get that in the pt scope..bottom line is money chiro chose to go outside the ama model and not to be controlled by them and that did hurt dc s but what is so much better about pt? Nothing,,with all the money and time into a dpt you might as well become a pa or md doctor instead of a gym instructor as i see it and many other do too
we are all in this healthcare nightmare together so get used to it.
Chiro doc can make 60k as an assoc but more in priv practice 100 200 300 600k so go check it out so you re numbers are low also relig can be tied into any profession and chiro is and others too so don t single chiro out to have the relig nuts in it only
then again you could become a nurse
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See below.
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I won't even attempt to engage DRJJ with a discussion regarding the details of his post as that would mean I find a shred of merit in the reply that he does propose, as bad as I want to address his astute findings.
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I just read DRJJ's previous posts. He is a DC. Also nontraditional Caribbean med school student. Likely English as a second language, or so I hope for his sake.
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Has all been lost regards the original topic? Why this continued bs? DC's do things MD's can't. MD's do things DC's can't. Dentists do what MD's can't. DPM's do things too, that no one can do. What's the point? All are part of the paradigm of future healthcare. All have a place. No need to perpetuate this discussion. Let it rest & agree that this is the reality not some fantasy ideal. Anyone here care to argue this rationale? If so, you aren't even remotely associated w/ the real world of today's healthcare system.
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Hi C/O:
Re: your post
Teaching someone to engage muscles properly to stop dysfunction is part of our job too. a client who has a weak core and flexibility issues and perhaps a tight or sore back related to their weak core IMO is not a candidate for PT. If this same person is experiencing numbness, tingling in the back/hip/leg or foot area along with the weak core, etc.... Then yes. they are a candidate for PT or some other form of intervention.
I don't doubt that your experience and continuing ed has made you adept at what you do as a trainer, however, can you say that you are trained to recognize whether someone's pain is actually musculoskeletal? (It's often not so clear cut that someone will have radiating pain, tingling, or numbness. If only it were that easy) That is not your job to do, and it is unsafe for the public. I'm not saying that you diagnose which you have already denied, but there is a reason why we take 4 semesters of anatomy and physiology, two semesters of differential diagnosis, cardiopulmonary diseases, pharmacology, 32 weeks of internships, 8 semesters, etc (just look at some curricula)...I know plenty of PTs who get patients who are misdiagnosed for something musculoskeletal only to have some hidden systemic pathology going on. On my limited time in clinical internships I've witnessed several already.
Also, PT is not only for those who are having rehab for some injury or massive pain. Wellness is an area where we are especially valuable to the aging population. Again, there are many safety concerns particularly with multiple comorbidities often presenting with this population. I can say so much more on this if you have any questions, but unfortunately have a final orthopedic practical tomorrow for which I should already be getting some rest. I hope my points are fairly clear, and if not will be glad to respond back later.
Re: your post
Teaching someone to engage muscles properly to stop dysfunction is part of our job too. a client who has a weak core and flexibility issues and perhaps a tight or sore back related to their weak core IMO is not a candidate for PT. If this same person is experiencing numbness, tingling in the back/hip/leg or foot area along with the weak core, etc.... Then yes. they are a candidate for PT or some other form of intervention.
I don't doubt that your experience and continuing ed has made you adept at what you do as a trainer, however, can you say that you are trained to recognize whether someone's pain is actually musculoskeletal? (It's often not so clear cut that someone will have radiating pain, tingling, or numbness. If only it were that easy) That is not your job to do, and it is unsafe for the public. I'm not saying that you diagnose which you have already denied, but there is a reason why we take 4 semesters of anatomy and physiology, two semesters of differential diagnosis, cardiopulmonary diseases, pharmacology, 32 weeks of internships, 8 semesters, etc (just look at some curricula)...I know plenty of PTs who get patients who are misdiagnosed for something musculoskeletal only to have some hidden systemic pathology going on. On my limited time in clinical internships I've witnessed several already.
Also, PT is not only for those who are having rehab for some injury or massive pain. Wellness is an area where we are especially valuable to the aging population. Again, there are many safety concerns particularly with multiple comorbidities often presenting with this population. I can say so much more on this if you have any questions, but unfortunately have a final orthopedic practical tomorrow for which I should already be getting some rest. I hope my points are fairly clear, and if not will be glad to respond back later.
First it's clo! please. thanks
No, I'm not trained to recognize someones pain is musculoskeletal. However I don't touch numbness, tingling or radiating pain either. In my setting (corp fitness) I have people coming down who have been sitting at their desk with poor posture which we all know leads to under/over developed muscles, tightness, etc.... I can address and help correct postural issues related to this. Perhaps I mislead, but if someone comes down and states: " I got rear ended in a car accident and my neck hurts". I won't touch these people. They get referred over to their doc or PT. In fact I have a client who was just recently released from PT who was in this type of car accident. after 2 workouts with modified activities she was still complaining of a stiff neck. so I sent her back to her PT to discuss. I'm still waiting to hear back from her.
Yes, I'd like to hear more about wellness and how a DPT is involved (from your understanding). Only because I know the DPT curriculum does not have personal training or wellness classes in it. So define "wellness" for me and how it pertains to the again population. Again this is also a population that we are trained to work with
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Not sure that I really agree with any of this. Very little data suggests a strong correlation between posture and spinal pain, particularly low back pain.
How do you tell if someone's LBP is related to a "weak" core. How do you assess "core" muscles function. What data do you have to suggest that "core" weakness correlates with LBP?
Also, why is that patient not a candidate for PT?
I said nothing about spinal pain. I'm curious, just what exactly is it that you think personal trainers do? do you think we are unable to identify when certain muscles are weak or tight? do you think all we do is count reps?
Poor posture, shoulders slumped forward and neck protruded will cause tight over active traps no? and won't the chest/shoulder muscles be tight as a result of inactivity? Because if this is not the case then I'll let you talk to the countless people I've helped corrective this issue by showing proper exercises to help correct this issue. Serratus push to activate the serratus muscles, showing proper engagement of the shoulder blades when doing back exercises...
