D.P.T. versus Chiropractor

[PostLessOne]

I have a friend who is considering going to PT school. To be honest, she looks like she could fit right in among the class of PTs I studied in the same class with last year.

While volunteering at a clinic to get the hours in for a PT school application, she encountered a chiropractor working in the same clinic who told her it was the way to go - similar job, more money.

So here's the pluses she outlined to me :

median income of 105k/year for chiropractors versus 80k for PTs.
She could start this summer at a local chiropractor school rather than needing another year to apply.
Chiropractor school is slightly over 3 years long rather than 4 years, and since she saves a year from not having application delays, she would be done with school 2 years early.

All compelling arguments. She visited the school, said they seemed credible, with a cadavar lab and so forth. They told her why other schools give chiropractors a bad name, and told her that medicare now pays for chiropractic care, giving it a sheen of legitimacy.

Well, I don't know. Obviously what gives me pause is that I don't really understand what chiropractors do, and I have heard many places that there isn't any scientific evidence for it's efficacy. That it's more or less a money making scam. Sure, it might pay more now, but building your long term career on an up selling lie doesn't necessarily seem to be the best decision. There doesn't appear to be an official chiropractor forum here, which is not a good sign, either.

What do you think? I'm sure some of you have researched this decision better than I have.

Edit : according to salary.com the median salary for a PT is 70k and for a chiropractor it is 85k. A similar % difference. In any case, the difference in time of 2 years is worth quite a lot to her.

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[clo]

There is a similar thread in here comparing the two. I wouldn't say the two are similar at all. Of course, this too depends on the Chiro and what their treatment philosophy is.

There's always that "bad apple" out there who just does adjustments and takes your money and tells you to come back again later that week. These guys aren't addressing the real reason for why that person is there; which could be because of an acute injury, chronic/repetitive over use, etc.....

I'm a cyclist and i see a good one and refer all my clients to him as well. A good chiro treats each patient as an individual and really has a good understanding of what their particular issue is and treats accordingly. Their ultimate goal like PT's is to get you back functioning 100%. Treatment may start out a few times a week and based on how you respond to treatment; taper down as the weeks progress.

I'm a huge fan of chiropractic care as long as you go to someone who knows what they are doing. My guy has been able keep my on my bike through all my injuries related to my sport.

 

[PostLessOne]

Does anyone have any dissenting opinions? If chiropractic care is reasonably legit and reasonably related to what a PT does, then the decision is a no brainer for my friend.

 

[truthseeker]

I really don't have the energy to respond with the conviction that I should. There are several threads already. I dispute the claims of your friend. Some Chiros are good, but the profession is based upon religious, not scientific grounds. The median income is the middle number. Some chiros make tons and some make nothing.

PTs have a lower median but the bottom is not as low. and they almost always pay their loans back. there is a reason that chiro's have the highest default rate on student loans. Its not because they make $10k more than PTs do.

Look at any one of several other threads to see my and other people's opinion about chiropractic.

 

[Lizarde]

I've tried 4 different chiropractors, and went to each for several months at a time (disclaimer: most treatments were free by "trading" Pilates services for chiro). After all this I can honestly say that I got NO improvement. If anything, I'm now concerned about eventually getting arthritis from excessive adjustments. Maybe some chiro's know what they are doing, but I'm not buying it.

 

[facetguy]

I've tried 4 different chiropractors, and went to each for several months at a time (disclaimer: most treatments were free by "trading" Pilates services for chiro). After all this I can honestly say that I got NO improvement. If anything, I'm now concerned about eventually getting arthritis from excessive adjustments. Maybe some chiro's know what they are doing, but I'm not buying it.

Stop worrying. That won't happen.

 

[facetguy]

I really don't have the energy to respond with the conviction that I should. There are several threads already. I dispute the claims of your friend. Some Chiros are good, but the profession is based upon religious, not scientific grounds. The median income is the middle number. Some chiros make tons and some make nothing.

That has to be one of the silliest critiques of chiropractic that I've ever heard. For those reading along, please don't believe goofy things like the above.

 

[jesspt]

That has to be one of the silliest critiques of chiropractic that I've ever heard. For those reading along, please don't believe goofy things like the above.

Is this the part where you bombard us with scientifically sound research backing up the chiropractic baliwick of subluxation?

 

[facetguy]

Is this the part where you bombard us with scientifically sound research backing up the chiropractic baliwick of subluxation?

What does chiropractic have to do with religion? That doesn't even make sense. Critique chiropractors for admission standards, lack of residency, or the like, but to say it's based on religion? Even you must find that odd.

 

[SPointer2010]

The chiropractic practice was formed under the belief that manipulation of the spine can cure any ailment that biomedicine can. Obviously, the modern practice has diverted from this scientifically questionable history, but this does not mean that the field has been legitimized to the point of being comparable to physical therapists.

Personally, I have always been wary of chiropractors. The profession is pretty prevalent in my state, to the point of where many chiropractic offices are located in strip malls. It does not really give one a sense of professional credibility to go to a run-down building next door to a shoe store and a Baskin Robbins. Additionally, I think that chiropractors attempt to reach outside of their scope of practice too often. As long as they know that what they do is limited exclusively to the spine, that's fine with me. If they claim to be able to do anything else, they are undoubtedly lying.

Maybe you can make more money as a chiropractor, but the broader scope of patients and depth of the physical therapy profession is unequivocally superior to chiropractic.

 

[lee9786]

I think the DPT will provide reason for legitimate concern for the chiropractic profession down the road. The reality is if your philosophy doesn't change with the times then you will be left behind. If third-party reimbursement for direct access occurs, then people will chose PTs to treat their MSK problems over their chiropractor. This will especially be true if almost everyone is covered with some type of insurance. I wonder where this profession will be twenty years from now. I don't think the outlook is looking so good.

 

[facetguy]

The chiropractic practice was formed under the belief that manipulation of the spine can cure any ailment that biomedicine can. Obviously, the modern practice has diverted from this scientifically questionable history, but this does not mean that the field has been legitimized to the point of being comparable to physical therapists.

Personally, I have always been wary of chiropractors. The profession is pretty prevalent in my state, to the point of where many chiropractic offices are located in strip malls. It does not really give one a sense of professional credibility to go to a run-down building next door to a shoe store and a Baskin Robbins. Additionally, I think that chiropractors attempt to reach outside of their scope of practice too often. As long as they know that what they do is limited exclusively to the spine, that's fine with me. If they claim to be able to do anything else, they are undoubtedly lying.

Maybe you can make more money as a chiropractor, but the broader scope of patients and depth of the physical therapy profession is unequivocally superior to chiropractic.

Gee. I've NEVER seen a PT center in a strip mall. And I'm sure you believe chiros are lying to their patients about everything, so what's the difference?

 

[facetguy]

I think the DPT will provide reason for legitimate concern for the chiropractic profession down the road. The reality is if your philosophy doesn't change with the times then you will be left behind. If third-party reimbursement for direct access occurs, then people will chose PTs to treat their MSK problems over their chiropractor. This will especially be true if almost everyone is covered with some type of insurance. I wonder where this profession will be twenty years from now. I don't think the outlook is looking so good.

There will continue to be room for both professions. Please get away from the "us vs. them" mentality. As to the DPT degree, I don't think it's going to make much difference at all (except cost DPT students more money).

 

[lee9786]

Philosophy aside if most the population is forced to have insurance, my guess is that they would go to the provider in which they are covered and have to pay less out of pocket to get better. Only a guess though. My magic 8 ball reads "hazy try again later."

 

[clo]

I've tried 4 different chiropractors, and went to each for several months at a time (disclaimer: most treatments were free by "trading" Pilates services for chiro). After all this I can honestly say that I got NO improvement. If anything, I'm now concerned about eventually getting arthritis from excessive adjustments. Maybe some chiro's know what they are doing, but I'm not buying it.

yeah, not so sure I'd take this as a valid critique either. especially when you are trading services? and why excessive adjustments?

i see as many PT offices as I do Chiro offices in strip malls and I can make the arguement in all my years of training I've had plenty of clients complain about the poor care they received from their PT.

So lets not jump on the "all Chiro's suck" band wagon mkay??

 

[soccer31]

Chiropractor school is slightly over 3 years long rather than 4 years, and since she saves a year from not having application delays, she would be done with school 2 years early.

The DPT usually lasts 3 years, not 4. The most I have heard about was 3.5, but that was just one school

 

[protean]

DC's can make huge $ or flop. Its very extreme. Also, PT's can't do what DC's can (w/out extra training in adjusting, etc.). But DC's CAN do what all PT's can (rehab modalities, etc.). Neither use drugs.


To whoever said "give us a scientific DC basis": Since when is meds ALL about science? You even have MD's (look it up in JAMA) say spiritualism works to heal. So adjustments are still in realm of reality (not withcraft and who cares about science anyway). Many doc's MD or DC have no idea (or the EXACT science behind what helped their people) what they're doing to make people better. All they and their patients care about is they feel better. That is the bottomline. Baby boomers love alt. treatments. Enter the DC for yrs to come.

 

[facetguy]

Philosophy aside if most the population is forced to have insurance, my guess is that they would go to the provider in which they are covered and have to pay less out of pocket to get better. Only a guess though. My magic 8 ball reads "hazy try again later."

Chiropractors are covered by all insurance plans now and have been for decades. To assume that future health insurance reform will somehow change that is faulty.

 

[callmecrazy]

Chiropractors are covered by all insurance plans now and have been for decades. To assume that future health insurance reform will somehow change that is faulty.

This is 100% not true. Chiropractic care is absolutely NOT covered by all health insurance plans. Some, yes. All, no.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Life is awful for newly minted DCs http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp look at all the DCs listed. While there are many successful DCs they tend to be 20+ years out. It is difficult to succeed in this over-saturated field. 30K is what the new grads are making. DPTs tend to do much better in their early years i.e. better starting salary, job opportunities. Your friend should go for the DPT.

 

[facetguy]

This is 100% not true. Chiropractic care is absolutely NOT covered by all health insurance plans. Some, yes. All, no.

OK, I stand corrected. I should have said the vast majority of insurance plans.

 

[facetguy]

Life is awful for newly minted DCs http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp look at all the DCs listed. While there are many successful DCs they tend to be 20+ years out. It is difficult to succeed in this over-saturated field. 30K is what the new grads are making. DPTs tend to do much better in their early years i.e. better starting salary, job opportunities. Your friend should go for the DPT.

Is there a reason your friend isn't trying for medical school?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

What does chiropractic have to do with religion? That doesn't even make sense. Critique chiropractors for admission standards, lack of residency, or the like, but to say it's based on religion? Even you must find that odd.

There is an old saying "As and Bs equal MD, Ds and Cs equal DC", chiropractic colleges have low admission standards which should be of great concern to any potential applicant. Saying that subluxations are the main cause of illness is just bizzare. Since many things in chiropractic are untestable hypotheses i.e. vitalism, it is in many regards taken on faith. There is a relative paucity of data on manipulations efficacy. This may be what the poster is referring to.

 

[facetguy]

There is an old saying "As and Bs equal MD, Ds and Cs equal DC", chiropractic colleges have low admission standards which should be of great concern to any potential applicant. Saying that subluxations are the main cause of illness is just bizzare. Since many things in chiropractic are untestable hypotheses i.e. vitalism, it is in many regards taken on faith. There is a relative paucity of data on manipulations efficacy. This may be what the poster is referring to.

Subluxations as the main cause of illness is an old model.

As to the effectiveness of manipulation, paucity would not be the word that comes to mind to describe the literature. Manipulation is very likely THE most well researched intervention for neck and back pain. Get your facts straight. I am, however, willing to forgive since you are clearly just getting started in your educational endeavors.

 

[lee9786]

time will tell. In the mean time I recommend anyone reading these boards looking to pursue either DPT or DC to investigate their decision thoroughly before making their decision.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Subluxations as the main cause of illness is an old model.

As to the effectiveness of manipulation, paucity would not be the word that comes to mind to describe the literature. Manipulation is very likely THE most well researched intervention for neck and back pain. Get your facts straight. I am, however, willing to forgive since you are clearly just getting started in your educational endeavors.

Actually I'm a dual admit to med school, an osteopathic medical school. While there is some virtue to that claim, studies have A) not been double blinded and B) many DCs claim that manipulation is effective for other ailments. Plus cervical spine manipulations are dangerous. There is a serious risk of ischemic stroke. Even if I granted that manipulation was effective for back pain, most DCs use it for other diseases. I have no problems with DCs or manipulations for certain reasons and I would have no problem refering a patient to a DC, I think that many view manipulation inappropriately, use it when contraindicated and the teaching on basic science knowledge is oftentimes lacking in chiropractic schools.

 

[facetguy]

Actually I'm a dual admit to med school, an osteopathic medical school. While there is some virtue to that claim, studies have A) not been double blinded and B) many DCs claim that manipulation is effective for other ailments. Plus cervical spine manipulations are dangerous. There is a serious risk of ischemic stroke. Even if I granted that manipulation was effective for back pain, most DCs use it for other diseases. I have no problems with DCs or manipulations for certain reasons and I would have no problem refering a patient to a DC, I think that many view manipulation inappropriately, use it when contraindicated and the teaching on basic science knowledge is oftentimes lacking in chiropractic schools.

You are overstating things a bit. But let's just leave it there.

Best of luck in school next year.

 

[truthseeker]

What does chiropractic have to do with religion? That doesn't even make sense. Critique chiropractors for admission standards, lack of residency, or the like, but to say it's based on religion? Even you must find that odd.

Not saying it is based on religion, I'm saying it IS a religion. Subluxation has to be believed since it has never been proven to be a reality.

If Palmer actually cured a deaf man, and it was the inspiration of chiropractic, then how come there are so many deaf people remaining? You would think that they would flock to the chiros since the treatment of a deaf man's subluxation was the springboard for the profession.

If the only basis for a profession is belief, then I would say it is not "rational" and therefore "irrational" and therefore a religion. I am not saying that religion is bad, its just that it requires faith. Science should not require faith.

Chiropractors without the subluxation theory is no different that physical therapy and therefore redundant.

 

[truthseeker]

What does chiropractic have to do with religion? That doesn't even make sense. Critique chiropractors for admission standards, lack of residency, or the like, but to say it's based on religion? Even you must find that odd.

Not saying it is based on religion, I'm saying it IS a religion. Subluxation has to be believed since it has never been proven to be a reality.

If Palmer actually cured a deaf man, and it was the inspiration of chiropractic, then how come there are so many deaf people remaining? You would think that they would flock to the chiros since the treatment of a deaf man's subluxation was the springboard for the profession.

If the only basis for a profession is belief, then I would say it is not "rational" and therefore "irrational" and therefore a religion. I am not saying that religion is bad, its just that it requires faith. Science should not require faith.

Chiropractors without the subluxation theory is no different that physical therapy and therefore redundant.

 

[facetguy]

Not saying it is based on religion, I'm saying it IS a religion. Subluxation has to be believed since it has never been proven to be a reality.

If Palmer actually cured a deaf man, and it was the inspiration of chiropractic, then how come there are so many deaf people remaining? You would think that they would flock to the chiros since the treatment of a deaf man's subluxation was the springboard for the profession.

If the only basis for a profession is belief, then I would say it is not "rational" and therefore "irrational" and therefore a religion. I am not saying that religion is bad, its just that it requires faith. Science should not require faith.

Chiropractors without the subluxation theory is no different that physical therapy and therefore redundant.

Be careful. Saying in this forum that chiro and PT are no different will very likely upset a few!

 

[lee9786]

Some things that may be of interest...

Number of jobs held in 2006

Physical Therapists - 173,000

Chiropractors - 53,000

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos080.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm


"The number of students enrolled in U.S. chiropractic colleges has also fallen sharply as a result. One report suggests that total U.S. chiropractic college enrollment fell from a high of 15,398 in 1996 to just over 10,000 in the fall term of 2002."

http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=46014


Physical therapy has seen a 31% increase since 2000.

132,000 jobs held in 2000.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/768462.html


A glance at the trends. Jobs held by chiropractors in 2000 were ~50,000 which isn't much of a change. While physical therapy is growing in numbers, chiropractic is remaining constant.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

According to the BLS the DC average is 65k.

 

[facetguy]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm


A glance at the trends. Jobs held by chiropractors in 2000 were ~50,000 which isn't much of a change. While physical therapy is growing in numbers, chiropractic is remaining constant.

From your link above, regarding future growth trends:

Job Outlook:[]

Employment is expected to grow faster than average because of increasing consumer demand for alternative health care. Job prospects should be good.
Employment change. Employment of chiropractors is expected to increase 14 percent between 2006 and 2016, faster than the average for all occupations. Projected job growth stems from increasing consumer demand for alternative health care. Because chiropractors emphasize the importance of healthy lifestyles and do not prescribe drugs or perform surgery, chiropractic care is appealing to many health-conscious Americans. Chiropractic treatment of the back, neck, extremities, and joints has become more accepted as a result of research and changing attitudes about alternative, noninvasive health care practices. The rapidly expanding older population, with its increased likelihood of mechanical and structural problems, also will increase demand for chiropractors.

 

[truthseeker]

Let me clarify. The way good chiropractors look at biomechanical dysfunction is more similar to how PTs look at it than how any other profession looks at the human body and its function. Both professions subscribe to the philosophy that we don't really heal the body, we simply put it in a position to heal itself. (e.g. correcting posture, directional exercise, creating movement where there is not enough and improving stability where there is too much movement)

However, PTs do not subscribe to the fantasy that correcting subluxations (a mythical beast that has never been supported by science) but instead measure objectively things that can be measured, and perhaps observe things that can't be measured or cannot be measured reliably yet. PTs endeavor to find ways to scientifically support what we do and as a rule, chiropractors are lacking in that capacity.

The impetus for my statement that facetguy bolded in his quote of my post is not to equate physical therapy with chiropractic, it was simply meant to suggest that although we may look at things in a similar way, our treatment approaches and philosophies are based upon completely different models.

I was too general in my statement, I hope that this clarifies my point.

 

[facetguy]

Let me clarify. The way good chiropractors look at biomechanical dysfunction is more similar to how PTs look at it than how any other profession looks at the human body and its function. Both professions subscribe to the philosophy that we don't really heal the body, we simply put it in a position to heal itself. (e.g. correcting posture, directional exercise, creating movement where there is not enough and improving stability where there is too much movement)

However, PTs do not subscribe to the fantasy that correcting subluxations (a mythical beast that has never been supported by science) but instead measure objectively things that can be measured, and perhaps observe things that can't be measured or cannot be measured reliably yet. PTs endeavor to find ways to scientifically support what we do and as a rule, chiropractors are lacking in that capacity.

The impetus for my statement that facetguy bolded in his quote of my post is not to equate physical therapy with chiropractic, it was simply meant to suggest that although we may look at things in a similar way, our treatment approaches and philosophies are based upon completely different models.

I was too general in my statement, I hope that this clarifies my point.

Point clarified. Still painted with too broad a brush, but clarified.

 

[PTtoBe]

However, PTs do not subscribe to the fantasy that correcting subluxations (a mythical beast that has never been supported by science)...

A quick clarification for the benefit of readers. PTs do have "subluxation" in their terminology, essentially as a partial dislocation (just as "luxation" means total dislocation), in which a bone has been moved almost out of its joint capsule, but not quite (straining the surrounding ligaments), sometimes with immediate pain. But this appears to be a more precise understanding of this word than the chiropractors' understanding.

 

[lee9786]

From your link above, regarding future growth trends:

Job Outlook:[]

Employment is expected to grow faster than average because of increasing consumer demand for alternative health care. Job prospects should be good.
Employment change. Employment of chiropractors is expected to increase 14 percent between 2006 and 2016, faster than the average for all occupations. Projected job growth stems from increasing consumer demand for alternative health care. Because chiropractors emphasize the importance of healthy lifestyles and do not prescribe drugs or perform surgery, chiropractic care is appealing to many health-conscious Americans. Chiropractic treatment of the back, neck, extremities, and joints has become more accepted as a result of research and changing attitudes about alternative, noninvasive health care practices. The rapidly expanding older population, with its increased likelihood of mechanical and structural problems, also will increase demand for chiropractors.

Speculation about the future is nice. The problem with it is it's the ultimate uncertainty especially when talking healthcare. To gain an accurate interpretation of what may happen one has to look at the current and past trends. The only thing we know for certain is that the baby boomers are here and will be for the next twenty years. How to pay and care for this group will drastically affect both professions. Who knows maybe the entire system will collapse and the individual will start having to pay out of pocket for services. Considering Medicare is scheduled for bankruptcy in eight or so years this may not be that far off. Thats when the real fun begins. We'll start mud wrestling for patients and there would be total pandemonium. Of course PTs are generally more attractive than chiro's so they'd probably win that battle. If nothing else it's make for a good reality TV series.

 

[facetguy]

A quick clarification for the benefit of readers. PTs do have "subluxation" in their terminology, essentially as a partial dislocation (just as "luxation" means total dislocation), in which a bone has been moved almost out of its joint capsule, but not quite (straining the surrounding ligaments), sometimes with immediate pain. But this appears to be a more precise understanding of this word than the chiropractors' understanding.

Palmer should have perhaps chosen a better term because of this, i.e., subluxation was already taken. But don't be confused; Chiropractors understand the difference.

 

[facetguy]

Speculation about the future is nice. The problem with it is it's the ultimate uncertainty especially when talking healthcare. To gain an accurate interpretation of what may happen one has to look at the current and past trends. The only thing we know for certain is that the baby boomers are here and will be for the next twenty years. How to pay and care for this group will drastically affect both professions. Who knows maybe the entire system will collapse and the individual will start having to pay out of pocket for services. Considering Medicare is scheduled for bankruptcy in eight or so years this may not be that far off. Thats when the real fun begins. We'll start mud wrestling for patients and there would be total pandemonium. Of course PTs are generally more attractive than chiro's so they'd probably win that battle. If nothing else it's make for a good reality TV series.

That stings a little.

 

[lee9786]

That stings a little.

Didn't catch the joke. Most PTs are female.

 

[facetguy]

Didn't catch the joke. Most PTs are female.

You're right; I did miss that. But is that true? I figured it'd be a 50/50 mix, or close at least. I know lots of male PTs. I've worked with both, referred to both, and have treated both over the years (yes, I know, PTs actually seeing a chiro seems impossible but it's true).

 

[callmecrazy]

You're right; I did miss that. But is that true? I figured it'd be a 50/50 mix, or close at least. I know lots of male PTs. I've worked with both, referred to both, and have treated both over the years (yes, I know, PTs actually seeing a chiro seems impossible but it's true).

PTs are roughly 70/30 female to male. You are likely to see even more disparity in areas like womens health and peds, perhaps less in sports.

 

[Husker DPT]

This question requires an involved reply. Chiropractic is not accepted as legitimate in mainstream medicine by many healthcare providers, from physicians to physical therapists. Lets discuss some assertions introduced here. Chiropractic does not involve religion? Yes it often does. Many "Body by God" clinics exist. Look it up, this is a practice management group that consists of consultants that train DCs to optimize revenue by memorizing scripts and then in turn take a cut of the profits. "The power that made the body heals the body" is a common catch phrase used to sell this pitch as is "Turn on the power" that occurs as a result of subluxation reduction aka "the adjustment". Scientology is also VERY big in chiropractic. High pressure sales tactics to convince patients to enter into annual and even lifetime packages for subluxation management for annual costs of thousands to treat general disease is common.....and that is almost absolutely necessary IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MORE THAN PHYSICAL THERAPISTS. Physical therapists receive by far more medical referrals and so chiropractors cannot generate large revenues by discharging patients. This includes tapping existing patients i.e. convincing them to bring in their family members including children for pediatric "adjustments". Musculoskeletal chiropractors that treat in an ethical fashion do not make large salaries in general. Also, reporting of incomes are skewed for the chiropractic salary calculations as aforementioned many do not make it. It is indisputable these post-graduates do represent the highest student loan default rate at present. Now why would that be with such a promising future? Physical therapists did generate the now commonly referenced and accepted studies in the form of a clinical predication model for use of manipulation to treat low back pain, look up Timothy Flynn on the website Evidence in motion. That is the difference between therapist use of manipulation vs. the chiropractic use of the adjustment. No annual contracts, lifetime scare tactics, use of subluxation reduction to manage general disease. Also, most chiropractic recruiters sell the notion that medicine involves drug pushing, big pharma, overmedicating the laypublic in addition to selling nutritional supplements and other holistic asides...and yet chiropractic will turn around and say physicians are "great referral sources". I mean, I could go on, but I'll spare further details. I am surprised by the general lack of concise feedback regarding this matter as I read these posts.

 

[Husker DPT]

Tell your friend to go to chirotalk.com and ask this same inquiry. This is a website started and operated by chiropractors leaving the field due to unethical practices. Ask questions about the legitimacy of the profession, the cost of the education, the training involved esp in regards to the responsibility of direct access, the income one can expect, reimbursement expectations including future projections, the respect of the profession within the medical community, their post-graduate lifestyle in addition to if they are making career changes and how the outrageous student loans have crippled this ability. Also ask the founder of the forum about various legal matters with which he is involved. To start.

 

[Husker DPT]

Last thing. When a DPT curriculum states 4 years duration, that's 8 semesters/4 academic years over 3 calender years. This is because summers are included. I'm not a big fan of the semantics but that's why.

 

[PostLessOne]

Thanks for the help. I'll make sure to point my friend in the right direction.

 

[facetguy]

I'm not here to defend bad chiropractors, so don't misunderstand. In fact, I hesitate to even post in the PT forums because it seems to foster this "us vs. them" mentality that doesn't need to exist. Having said that:

This question requires an involved reply. Chiropractic is not accepted as legitimate in mainstream medicine by many healthcare providers, from physicians to physical therapists. Lets discuss some assertions introduced here. Chiropractic does not involve religion? Yes it often does. Many "Body by God" clinics exist. Look it up, this is a practice management group that consists of consultants that train DCs to optimize revenue by memorizing scripts and then in turn take a cut of the profits. "The power that made the body heals the body" is a common catch phrase used to sell this pitch as is "Turn on the power" that occurs as a result of subluxation reduction aka "the adjustment".

There are roughly 60,000 or so chiros in the US. How many of them use this "Body by God" organization? I am a real, live chiropractor and I've neither heard of them nor have I ever been solicited by them. Yours is a gross overstatement to prove a weak point. Chiropractic is in no way based on religion.

Scientology is also VERY big in chiropractic.

Dude, you need to fire your fact checker. This is perhaps even more ridiculous than the "chiropractic is a religion" assertion. Where do you get this stuff?? I've been in practice quite a few years and know lots of chiropractors, and not a single one of them is into Scientology. Zero. Statements like this really affect your credibility.

High pressure sales tactics to convince patients to enter into annual and even lifetime packages for subluxation management for annual costs of thousands to treat general disease is common

This does happen, albeit on a relatively small scale, and it shouldn't be defended. I'm not sure about the lifetime packages you mention, but you've proven yourself to be right about everything else, so...

.....and that is almost absolutely necessary IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MORE THAN PHYSICAL THERAPISTS.

When did this become an income-centered peeing match? This is what I mean when I mention the "us vs. them" thing. Childish.

Physical therapists receive by far more medical referrals

No doubt, and why wouldn't they? Medical physicians are trained to refer MSK cases to PTs. I must say, however, that this is changing somewhat in that more and more MD/DOs have no problem referring cases to DCs; I get them all the time. It's not a competition thing; it's a doing-whats-best-for-the-patient thing.

...and so chiropractors cannot generate large revenues by discharging patients. This includes tapping existing patients i.e. convincing them to bring in their family members including children for pediatric "adjustments".

Kids get spine pain just like adults. Check the literature.

Musculoskeletal chiropractors that treat in an ethical fashion do not make large salaries in general.

Thanks for the kind words.

Also, reporting of incomes are skewed for the chiropractic salary calculations as aforementioned many do not make it. It is indisputable these post-graduates do represent the highest student loan default rate at present. Now why would that be with such a promising future? Physical therapists did generate the now commonly referenced and accepted studies in the form of a clinical predication model for use of manipulation to treat low back pain, look up Timothy Flynn on the website Evidence in motion. That is the difference between therapist use of manipulation vs. the chiropractic use of the adjustment. No annual contracts, lifetime scare tactics, use of subluxation reduction to manage general disease.

I don't think anyone would dispute that DCs have more training and expertise in manipulation than anyone. PTs doing manipulation-related research is a good thing, but don't try to suggest that PTs are all of a sudden more expert in spinal manipulation than chiros. Even the readers of this PT forum won't believe you if you say that. As to the terms 'manipulation' and 'adjustment', they are used interchangeably all the time now in the field.

Also, most chiropractic recruiters...

What the heck is a "chiropractic recruiter"???

...sell the notion that medicine involves drug pushing, big pharma, overmedicating the laypublic in addition to selling nutritional supplements and other holistic asides...

Our healthcare system has problems, and it's a complicated issue. No one would criticize individual medical professionals as intentionally contributing to these problems. As to the overmedicating of the laypublic, if you don't believe this is happening, you need to get out more.

...and yet chiropractic will turn around and say physicians are "great referral sources".

They are.

I mean, I could go on, but I'll spare further details. I am surprised by the general lack of concise feedback regarding this matter as I read these posts.

Thank you for not going on. My head hurts from reading your post.

 

[Danae00]

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[facetguy]

As a future PT, I am a bit ashamed at how much of a rivalry there seems to be on this forum between chiro and PT. I wonder if it's just a by-product of how competitive it is to get in to so many medical fields. There is such a need to continually prove how great we are because let's face it, we have to prove that we are "great" to get into PT school. But I think that can easily get warped into trying to show how others (or other careers) are inferior to us.

I think PT and chiro are both legitimate fields that can co-exist quite happily. I see it all the time in multidisciplinary clinics. I've seen various mixes of PTs, chiros, doctors, massage therapists, acupuncturists, athletic therapists, occupational therapists, nutritionists, etc all working together with a common goal -- rehabilitating the patient. Not every patient is right for PT. Not every patient is right for chiro. Some can benefit from both.

I will say from my own anecdotal experience that most people I know have far better things to say about their chiropractors than they do about their PTs. Of course, this is most likely because PTs make them do hard work that takes time, effort, and often discomfort before any improvement is seen. On the other hand, a 20 minute appointment with a chiropractor takes 0 effort on the patient's part and provides instant relief. Hardly seem fair!

My 2 cents, which really don't account for much

This is exactly correct. Well put, and your 2 cents does count for much! The animous between PTs and DCs exists only in the minds of some (including some educators, from what I've heard) and is a shame.

 

[clo]

Yours is a gross overstatement to prove a weak point. Chiropractic is in no way based on religion.

Agreed. a few bad apples will spoil it for the rest. Same for PT's.