Career Choices..

[mfw04071]

Hi all,

Bear with me here as I bring you up to speed for my question. I am a current P2 in pharmacy school and am having some serious reconsiderations for my career path. In high school, I shadowed a pharmacist and thought 'well this isn't too shabby' and from those 3 hours I foolishly decided to go into a 2+4 early assurance program. I didn't know what I really wanted out of a career back then when I was 16/17; all I knew was that I wanted a nice high paying, well respected career with some decent job security. I was good at math and science, as well as communicating with others, so pharmacy was a decent pick. I got a job as a tech and didn't mind it. I had this job through the second half of high school and still work there now. I have always had some sort of engineering in the back of my mind (though it has come to the forefront recently), as I am passionate about working on problems and creating unique solutions. Moving forward, I did my 2 years undergrad and didn't think much about the quickly coming pharmacy school transition. The P1 year was mostly basic science/physiology which I didn't mind. I find myself now in the P2 year, doing a TON of therapeutics and drug therapy classes. I'll be honest, I really don't care much for it as I am now realizing most of pharmacy school is just memorizing. I am not using my creative problem solving/critical thinking abilities and it is incredibly frustrating to me. This is where I've gotten to thinking about different career paths from my current situation. My most likely path as of now is applying for fellowships to work in the industry and hopefully finding a fit doing something with strategic planning (I know this is broad but I need to do more homework on what industry pharmacists do day to day). I have considered going on (after pharmacy school) to get a PhD in some sort of pharmaceutical sciences, or possibly even dropping back into undergrad to finish my Chem BS, to then move onto something bigger. I don't know what my best option is, as I have already paid quite a bit to pharmacy school, and am a decent portion through it. If anybody has advice on what I should do, it would be greatly appreciated in my time of questioning.

Thank you (especially if you read this giant paragraph)

P.S. I am growing more and more away from anything retail. Being 100% honest, if I could restart college all over again, I probably would just do Chem Eng or something. My only problem is I feel so behind now just to get a Bachelor's degree when I am just as close to getting a Doctor of Pharmacy. If you think that industry has the potential to offer the same level of satisfaction (in terms of project completion/design) then please let me know! I do not want to do anything drastic if I don't have to!

Another FYI, I am 2 classes away from completing a BS in Pharmaceutical Studies, as I have worked on the required classes this year and last year.

Again, sorry for getting long-winded.

Thanks

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[PharmtoCS]

With the way pharmacy is going, I would just just cut your losses, save yourself the time and tuition, and move onto something else. Aside from the extremely saturated job market, in pharmacy practice you use very little critical thinking skills and deal with mostly mindless BS that will only make you frustrated and lose your brain cells.

Computer science and engineering offer better job prospects, allow far more opportunities to use critical thinking skills, and less stress. They also pay as well as pharmacy if not better and do not require you to graduate with astronomical loans.

 

[mfw04071]

With the way pharmacy is going, I would just just cut your losses, save yourself the time and tuition, and move onto something else. Aside from the extremely saturated job market, in pharmacy practice you use very little critical thinking skills and deal with mostly mindless BS that will only make you frustrated and lose your brain cells.

Computer science and engineering offer better job prospects, allow far more opportunities to use critical thinking skills, and less stress. They also pay as well as pharmacy if not better and do not require you to graduate with astronomical loans.

Thanks for your insight. I'm already a P2, so do you think it would still be worth it for me to switch? If I did Chem Eng, I'd have another 2.5 years or so to go. What is you current position if you don't mind me asking?

 

[BC_89]

Hi all,

Bear with me here as I bring you up to speed for my question. I am a current P2 in pharmacy school and am having some serious reconsiderations for my career path. In high school, I shadowed a pharmacist and thought 'well this isn't too shabby' and from those 3 hours I foolishly decided to go into a 2+4 early assurance program. I didn't know what I really wanted out of a career back then when I was 16/17; all I knew was that I wanted a nice high paying, well respected career with some decent job security. I was good at math and science, as well as communicating with others, so pharmacy was a decent pick. I got a job as a tech and didn't mind it. I had this job through the second half of high school and still work there now. I have always had some sort of engineering in the back of my mind (though it has come to the forefront recently), as I am passionate about working on problems and creating unique solutions. Moving forward, I did my 2 years undergrad and didn't think much about the quickly coming pharmacy school transition. The P1 year was mostly basic science/physiology which I didn't mind. I find myself now in the P2 year, doing a TON of therapeutics and drug therapy classes. I'll be honest, I really don't care much for it as I am now realizing most of pharmacy school is just memorizing. I am not using my creative problem solving/critical thinking abilities and it is incredibly frustrating to me. This is where I've gotten to thinking about different career paths from my current situation. My most likely path as of now is applying for fellowships to work in the industry and hopefully finding a fit doing something with strategic planning (I know this is broad but I need to do more homework on what industry pharmacists do day to day). I have considered going on (after pharmacy school) to get a PhD in some sort of pharmaceutical sciences, or possibly even dropping back into undergrad to finish my Chem BS, to then move onto something bigger. I don't know what my best option is, as I have already paid quite a bit to pharmacy school, and am a decent portion through it. If anybody has advice on what I should do, it would be greatly appreciated in my time of questioning.

Thank you (especially if you read this giant paragraph)

P.S. I am growing more and more away from anything retail. Being 100% honest, if I could restart college all over again, I probably would just do Chem Eng or something. My only problem is I feel so behind now just to get a Bachelor's degree when I am just as close to getting a Doctor of Pharmacy. If you think that industry has the potential to offer the same level of satisfaction (in terms of project completion/design) then please let me know! I do not want to do anything drastic if I don't have to!

Another FYI, I am 2 classes away from completing a BS in Pharmaceutical Studies, as I have worked on the required classes this year and last year.

Again, sorry for getting long-winded.

Thanks

At the very least, stick around to obtain a bachelors of pharmaceutical studies so you walk away with something. Despite being accepted into pharmacy, I also have been accepted into an Engineering Program (Electrical) as well as Petroleum Engineering degree (Alaska).

Your right, it’ll take 2.5 years more, but if it’s something you now know then it’s worth the next 30 years of enjoying a career rather than “settling” wondering about all the coulda-woulda-shoulda moments.

Your not the first to think this and won’t be the last if you decide to act on it.

 

[mfw04071]

At the very least, stick around to obtain a bachelors of pharmaceutical studies so you walk away with something. Despite being accepted into pharmacy, I also have been accepted into an Engineering Program (Electrical) as well as Petroleum Engineering degree (Alaska).

Your right, it’ll take 2.5 years more, but if it’s something you now know then it’s worth the next 30 years of enjoying a career rather than “settling” wondering about all the coulda-woulda-shoulda moments.

Your not the first to think this and won’t be the last if you decide to act on it.

Thanks for the advice. Definitely planning on finishing the BS but its just tough because I put myself into this program and now am really considering leaving... like having high school kids decide what they're going to do for their entire life is crazy without them having any clue what they are truly getting into. I have a lot of thinking to do.

 

[BC_89]

Thanks for the advice. Definitely planning on finishing the BS but its just tough because I put myself into this program and now am really considering leaving... like having high school kids decide what they're going to do for their entire life is crazy without them having any clue what they are truly getting into. I have a lot of thinking to do.

This is why I always recommend to people to get an undergrad degree right after high school and take all pre-reqs within a professional category (ie healthcare , business , or math). Right after high school I was a horse wrangler for awhile and a welder. Then I went to college studying recreational management and stumbled on the sciences.

It’s a big decision so have a solid contingency if you decide to stay and go. As far as “opportunity cost” of losing out on salary for every year your behind, the old saying stands true: “can’t put a price on happiness.” One life so take your time. At least you caught it now vs APPE rotations.

 

[Jbrl]

For the time being I would tell you to stay the course, the reason being that your goals seem a bit scattered and leaving won't solve anything. You also seem to be running away from pharmacy, instead of running toward something else. At the very least, you should get the Bachelors in Pharm Sci.

You mentioned strategic planning within biopharma, a PhD in Pharm Sci and a ChemE degree - all very different fields and outcomes. But what do you know about those areas? And what experience or knowledge do you have to suggest that these would be the best for you? Your post is missing these and it would help you to fill in the blanks as a next step. You can't make good decisions without having good information.

 

[UGAZ]

If I were you and if I am single and under 30 years old, I would have gone back to school and do MD route. Lots of opportunities and pathway + flexibility with MD route. My community college friend who is an now an emergency MD making 300K plus a year + bonus and with lots of respect from people. Also, if you make it to top specialty like lasik surgeon/ophthalmologists, you can easily bank 600K to 1 million a year. No joke!

 

[PA_dud3]

If I were you and if I am single and under 30 years old, I would have gone back to school and do MD route. Lots of opportunities and pathway + flexibility with MD route. My community college friend who is an now an emergency MD making 300K plus a year + bonus and with lots of respect from people. Also, if you make it to top specialty like lasik surgeon/ophthalmologists, you can easily bank 600K to 1 million a year. No joke!

While MD is a good route, I wouldnt consider it flexible at all. Once you declare a specialty you are essentially stuck there unless you go back for another residency/fellowship. Also, on call hours and the amount of work most MDs take home with them add to the stress.

 

[VA77]

2.5 year plus at least year of residency. Hope you love it or get out while you can.

 

[greenteapanacea]

Take the Bachelor's degree, get a job in the pharmaceutical industry, and go to school part time for computer science.

 

[beautifulrobot]

Does your school have career advisors? I would recommend using all resources at your disposal to help with making this big decision.

 

[mfw04071]

Does your school have career advisors? I would recommend using all resources at your disposal to help with making this big decision.

Yes, we do. I should definitely stop in and talk to them. Thanks for the advice. In your opinion, is working in the pharma industry as a pharmacist really feasible or is it more of a hope and a dream?

 

[mfw04071]

Take the Bachelor's degree, get a job in the pharmaceutical industry, and go to school part time for computer science.

This is interesting. Haven't given much thought into what I can do with just a BS in Pharm. I'll look online but in your experience, what is the job market like? I am not incredibly employable at the moment as I have been focusing on Pharm School instead of investing in my resume. However, my GPA is good (3.8+) and by the end of this semester I should have published research.

 

[mfw04071]

If I were you and if I am single and under 30 years old, I would have gone back to school and do MD route. Lots of opportunities and pathway + flexibility with MD route. My community college friend who is an now an emergency MD making 300K plus a year + bonus and with lots of respect from people. Also, if you make it to top specialty like lasik surgeon/ophthalmologists, you can easily bank 600K to 1 million a year. No joke!

So would you do MD after PharmD or try to switch now? I have thought about MD, but I'll be honest I'm kind of a ***** when it comes to medical procedures/stitches and the sort.

 

[mfw04071]

For the time being I would tell you to stay the course, the reason being that your goals seem a bit scattered and leaving won't solve anything. You also seem to be running away from pharmacy, instead of running toward something else. At the very least, you should get the Bachelors in Pharm Sci.

You mentioned strategic planning within biopharma, a PhD in Pharm Sci and a ChemE degree - all very different fields and outcomes. But what do you know about those areas? And what experience or knowledge do you have to suggest that these would be the best for you? Your post is missing these and it would help you to fill in the blanks as a next step. You can't make good decisions without having good information.

This is where you are 100% right. I haven't done my homework into what these career look like in person. But, from the forums I've read/people I've talked to about engineering, it seems very interesting. I just need to be able to shadow someone (BUT the problem still remains that you can't base your entire life off a 6 hour experience from 1 day).

 

[mfw04071]

This is why I always recommend to people to get an undergrad degree right after high school and take all pre-reqs within a professional category (ie healthcare , business , or math). Right after high school I was a horse wrangler for awhile and a welder. Then I went to college studying recreational management and stumbled on the sciences.

It’s a big decision so have a solid contingency if you decide to stay and go. As far as “opportunity cost” of losing out on salary for every year your behind, the old saying stands true: “can’t put a price on happiness.” One life so take your time. At least you caught it now vs APPE rotations.

So very true. I should've done my full undergrad degree first, yet in an attempt to save money, I decided not to. But given the position I am in now, I guess my real question becomes is industry pharmacist work just a myth that only a very select few get to realize? I feel like I could find my way into a satisfying career within pharma, yet I don't know if that is even realistic. Do you have any insight?

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

So very true. I should've done my full undergrad degree first, yet in an attempt to save money, I decided not to. But given the position I am in now, I guess my real question becomes is industry pharmacist work just a myth that only a very select few get to realize? I feel like I could find my way into a satisfying career within pharma, yet I don't know if that is even realistic. Do you have any insight?

It’s a myth that only a very select few get to realize. Around 1% of pharmacy students end up making it into pharma, and about 1% of those end up getting what they want within pharma. The risk/reward aspect of going into pharmacy school just to get into the pharmaceutical industry is not worth it.

Put another way, it’s like aspiring to be an engineer in the R&D division at Google when you’re in college— you have to realize that only .01% of people make it there. First, you need to become an engineer i.e. have the right skills they are hiring for. Second, you have to be more competitive than the thousands of other engineers out there. Third, you have to realize that while Google is a giant company, they are not hiring for thousands of R&D positions since their team might be 10-15 people max, so for all you know they won’t be hiring unless someone dies or retires. Again, I want to stress that Google is a giant company and they have lots of “roles”, but will you as an engineer apply to an HR job? A marketing job? A sales job? A job as a clerk? A job as the chef at the cafe? I doubt it. Same goes for pharmacist positions in pharma. Your options are limited even if you somehow find your way into a company.

 

[UGAZ]

So would you do MD after PharmD or try to switch now? I have thought about MD, but I'll be honest I'm kind of a ***** when it comes to medical procedures/stitches and the sort.

I would switch ASAP. Don't waste another 2 years while you know your heart is going to the other route. Wasting both money and time..

 

[UGAZ]

While MD is a good route, I wouldnt consider it flexible at all. Once you declare a specialty you are essentially stuck there unless you go back for another residency/fellowship. Also, on call hours and the amount of work most MDs take home with them add to the stress.

Flexibility here means you have more options as choosing which specialty to do. During medical school, you will have enough time to know what you can get into. Of course, everyone want to be an Lasik surgeon, but not everyone is able to get into. However, you can be a family doctor, an ob/gyn, an oncologist, an orthopedic surgeon, an opthamologist, a pediatrician, a neuro-surgeon, a sport medicine MD, etc...Pharmacy? You either end up in retail or community hospital/long term care. There are other subareas in pharmacy, such as nuclear pharmacy, etc..but very smaller number, and the pay is pretty much the same.

 

[BC_89]

So very true. I should've done my full undergrad degree first, yet in an attempt to save money, I decided not to. But given the position I am in now, I guess my real question becomes is industry pharmacist work just a myth that only a very select few get to realize? I feel like I could find my way into a satisfying career within pharma, yet I don't know if that is even realistic. Do you have any insight?

I don’t think the question at this point is whether getting into the niche jobs of pharmacy (such as industry) is a myth, but rather would you enjoy it and not look back wondering what-if?

As others stated, talk with advisors and utilize all resources you have available as a student. Many people who did MD/DO, NP, PA, CRNA, RT etc etc love it as well as hate it. I’ve also worked with people in the inpatient side that earned their pharmD, paid off debt while getting healthcare experience over 3-4 years, then made the switch over to PA or even MD. They had Emergency Savings, enough payment to cover pre-reqs in undergrad for med school (part-time), then made the switch.

Others joined the uniformed services for loan forgiveness while others were content and enjoyed their seniority as a pharmacist after putting in some time. Just don’t jump ship until you’ve evaluated all avenues. Expressing on here is also a good step. I’d encourage you to look at the other healthcare forums on here and see what other inputs you could gain.

 

[Jbrl]

So very true. I should've done my full undergrad degree first, yet in an attempt to save money, I decided not to. But given the position I am in now, I guess my real question becomes is industry pharmacist work just a myth that only a very select few get to realize? I feel like I could find my way into a satisfying career within pharma, yet I don't know if that is even realistic. Do you have any insight?

It’s a myth that only a very select few get to realize. Around 1% of pharmacy students end up making it into pharma, and about 1% of those end up getting what they want within pharma. The risk/reward aspect of going into pharmacy school just to get into the pharmaceutical industry is not worth it.

While I agree with the core message, the statistics are misleading and miss the nuance involved in the process. He's also already in his P2 year of pharmacy school, which may or may not change the decision calculus.

The odds of getting a job in pharma for someone who is knowledgeable in the process are significantly higher than the statistics suggest. Let's take the Rutgers fellowship as an example. In the recent past, there have been about 600-800 applicants annually (though rising year over year) for roughly 100 spots. Doing the math, you get a rough estimate of 12.5%-15%. You can further segment this into the 50% who understand the Midyear process and come in prepared, and the 50% who come in unprepared (anecdotal info). Now your odds go up to 25-30%.

One would naturally inquire - why the discrepancy? That's because

1. There is a segment of the pharmacy student population who is unaware about the opportunities
2. Of those who are aware, some portion are uninterested
3. Of those who are interested, some portion self-select out for fear of being unqualified
4. Of those who participate, some portion don't do their due diligence into the fellowship process and position themselves for it

This doesn't only apply to biopharma fellowships, but to every job and role. The rumored odds are about 0.5% for a software engineer role at FAANG. But actual % for the applicants who are knowledgeable, competitive, and connected is an order of magnitude higher than this, say ~5%.

Now how does that relate to you, OP? Essentially - you're at a crossroad with a myriad of options at your feet. What is limiting you right now is a lack of information, with respect to 1. what your interests are 2. how your interests can be applied to specific roles. Once you determine this and pursue it wholesale, the rest comes down to execution. Part of it is reading forums, shadowing, etc - all the externally oriented things - but the other half is all about introspection. e.g. You say you want a role where you "work on problems and create solutions." What does that mean to you? What types of problems are you excited about, or interested in solving?

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

The odds of getting a job in pharma for someone who is knowledgeable in the process are significantly higher than the statistics suggest. Let's take the Rutgers fellowship as an example. In the recent past, there have been about 600-800 applicants annually (though rising year over year) for roughly 100 spots. Doing the math, you get a rough estimate of 12.5%-15%. You can further segment this into the 50% who understand the Midyear process and come in prepared, and the 50% who come in unprepared (anecdotal info). Now your odds go up to 25-30%.

Good point, but another layer of complication is that you can’t possibly apply to all 100 spots so you have to pick your battles as to which 20-30 programs to apply to. Realistically, you will only have time to go to 12-15 receptions and you won’t even get that many second or third round interviews unless you’re one of the top candidates to begin with.

So there is a lot of strategy involved in which programs you apply to, because if you apply to brand name programs only then you might be at a 1-3% chance of getting a fellowship vs. a 25-30% chance of getting any fellowship. It’s difficult to “gauge” your odds because you have no idea how many applicants are applying to which program (and conversely, which programs have no applicants) and it makes it hard to go after even the “undesirable” fellowships.

This is why Midyear is just all a crapshoot.

 

[Jbrl]

Good point, but another layer of complication is that you can’t possibly apply to all 100 spots so you have to pick your battles as to which 20-30 programs to apply to. Realistically, you will only have time to go to 12-15 receptions and you won’t even get that many second or third round interviews unless you’re one of the top candidates to begin with.

So there is a lot of strategy involved in which programs you apply to, because if you apply to brand name programs only then you might be at a 1-3% chance of getting a fellowship vs. a 25-30% chance of getting any fellowship. It’s difficult to “gauge” your odds because you have no idea how many applicants are applying to which program (and conversely, which programs have no applicants) and it makes it hard to go after even the “undesirable” fellowships.

This is why Midyear is just all a crapshoot.

Absolutely. One has to consider, though, that every other candidate partakes in the Midyear game theory as well. In the end, it all equilibrates, with some pockets of increased competition here and there.

This was all just to say that, for driven, purpose-oriented candidates, the odds are always better than people think. It’s my belief that, rather than “what field should I go into?” it best starts at “what fascinates and excites me, and how do I integrate that into what I do?”

 

[mfw04071]

Absolutely. One has to consider, though, that every other candidate partakes in the Midyear game theory as well. In the end, it all equilibrates, with some pockets of increased competition here and there.

This was all just to say that, for driven, purpose-oriented candidates, the odds are always better than people think. It’s my belief that, rather than “what field should I go into?” it best starts at “what fascinates and excites me, and how do I integrate that into what I do?”

This is exactly what I am thinking. I really do not want to have to switch programs, yet I don't know how much I can rely on pharma to hire me (basically the only thing I'd be happy doing with my PharmD at the moment). My considerations for Chem Eng have reached an all time high

 

[mfw04071]

This is exactly what I am thinking. I really do not want to have to switch programs, yet I don't know how much I can rely on pharma to hire me (basically the only thing I'd be happy doing with my PharmD at the moment). My considerations for Chem Eng have reached an all time high

**based on the uncertainty of fellowships. I believe if I could simply pick the fellowship/career I wanted in industry (R&D/market research positions available to a PharmD) then I would not need to switch. However, it seems what I want out of a PharmD is exactly what a chemical engineer does......

 

[Jbrl]

**based on the uncertainty of fellowships. I believe if I could simply pick the fellowship/career I wanted in industry (R&D/market research positions available to a PharmD) then I would not need to switch. However, it seems what I want out of a PharmD is exactly what a chemical engineer does......

Without knowing more - if you're sure about this, I would get the BS in Pharm Sci and take a year leave of absence. Take 6 months to explore, take classes relevant to your fields of interest, speak to people, etc. and decide what you want. If you decide to stick out the PharmD, figure out what you need to do in the remaining 6 months to get where you want to be in biopharma. Your GPA's high enough that you could pursue post-grad education somewhere else if you so choose.

Keep in mind you don't necessarily need to get a ChemE BS either. Check with Adcoms about prerequisites for MS programs.

 

[mfw04071]

May I ask what your current position is?

 

[Jbrl]

May I ask what your current position is?

I currently do consulting work in healthcare and tech.

You know what's best for you. Someone I know did something similar and left in his P2 year to get a biochem PhD because he really wanted to dive deep into one topic and create drugs instead of - in his words - memorizing medications. He's much happier now than he would have been if he stuck through the program.

Go out and see if your expectations match up to reality.

 

[mfw04071]

I currently do consulting work in healthcare and tech.

You know what's best for you. Someone I know did something similar and left in his P2 year to get a biochem PhD because he really wanted to dive deep into one topic and create drugs instead of - in his words - memorizing medications. He's much happier now than he would have been if he stuck through the program.

Go out and see if your expectations match up to reality.

See therein lies the problem. I go to a small school and don't understand fully what it is pharmacists do in the industry (I know enough to say it is the best thing I can do for myself with a pharmd). I know the onus is on me to find that out but it seems like it is highly competitive and unlikely to turn into a career. On the other hand, this is what engineering does solely. I don't want to spend all the time/money in pharm school just to have it not work out, yet if it does, I will have made the best move of my life. It's essentially a gamble for me. Option 1: I stay in pharmacy school. Outcome A of option 1: I get an industry job and I live happily ever after. Outcome B of option 1: I get a job in retail and hate it (I know I can go back for a PhD and whatever, but by that time, I'll want a family/house etc). Option 2: I drop out and go for a engineering type degree, knowing I'll get at least some satisfaction (however, this requires ample opportunity cost)...... its tough!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jbrl]

See therein lies the problem. I go to a small school and don't understand fully what it is pharmacists do in the industry (I know enough to say it is the best thing I can do for myself with a pharmd). I know the onus is on me to find that out but it seems like it is highly competitive and unlikely to turn into a career. On the other hand, this is what engineering does solely. I don't want to spend all the time/money in pharm school just to have it not work out, yet if it does, I will have made the best move of my life. It's essentially a gamble for me. Option 1: I stay in pharmacy school. Outcome A of option 1: I get an industry job and I live happily ever after. Outcome B of option 1: I get a job in retail and hate it (I know I can go back for a PhD and whatever, but by that time, I'll want a family/house etc). Option 2: I drop out and go for a engineering type degree, knowing I'll get at least some satisfaction (however, this requires ample opportunity cost)...... its tough!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly I'm a bit confused as to what you're equivocating; a PharmD in industry and a ChemE in biopharma generally do very different things. PharmD have roles neither in the manufacturing design and controls process, nor the nuts and bolts of R&D operations and product analysis/development in biopharma, like engineers would. And they certainly don't have the role in agriculture, fire codes, chemical plants, etc that a chemical engineer would.

Conversely, an engineer will generally have little to do with the clinical trial development, market research/competitive intel, or medical info/medical affairs that goes on like a pharmacist would in the industry.

At the end of the day, it is - what do you want to do? I understand you find being an engineer enticing - but why? And how is it similar or different from your understanding of what a pharmacist does in the pharmaceutical industry?

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

Honestly I'm a bit confused as to what you're equivocating; a PharmD in industry and a ChemE in biopharma generally do very different things. PharmD have roles neither in the manufacturing design and controls process, nor the nuts and bolts of R&D operations and product analysis/development in biopharma, like engineers would. And they certainly don't have the role in agriculture, fire codes, chemical plants, etc that a chemical engineer would.

Conversely, an engineer will generally have little to do with the clinical trial development, market research/competitive intel, or medical info/medical affairs that goes on like a pharmacist would in the industry.

At the end of the day, it is - what do you want to do? I understand you find being an engineer enticing - but why? And how is it similar or different from your understanding of what a pharmacist does in the pharmaceutical industry?

But but but... pharmacists are the “drug experts.” Shouldn’t they know how to manufacture drugs, conduct R&D, understand the regulatory landscape and how to market a product?

 

[beautifulrobot]

Yes, we do. I should definitely stop in and talk to them. Thanks for the advice. In your opinion, is working in the pharma industry as a pharmacist really feasible or is it more of a hope and a dream?

Jbrl did a great job addressing your question regarding feasibility. I will just emphasize that, in my experience, being strategic and making a plan will increase your chances of getting a niche job. And always have a backup plan or two. If the only way you will be happy with your PharmD is if you end up doing a very specific job in a very specific setting, and there is no other back up that you are willing to tolerate/accept, then that's a pretty good indication that you might not be on the right track. Although, with any career planning, having some flexibility and an ability to adapt to changes will help you. Nothing ever goes as planned.

If you aren't sure how to come up with a plan (and an acceptable back up), I would recommend (in addition to consulting with career advisors) to meet with the faculty at your pharmacy school - go to their officer hours, ask them about how they started their careers, what were opportunities that they wished they had known about when they were students, etc. You talk a lot about how you think you would really enjoy an industry job (although this is fairly vague, as Jbrl already pointed out), but it's very possible there are other kinds of jobs out there that you don't know about and have had the chance to consider yet.

 

[Momus]

Comp sci or MD route will be my top 2 choices if I could start over. These two degrees can bank $ up to 500k/yr as a "low" level employee. There are very few degrees than can top that.

 

[PharmtoCS]

See therein lies the problem. I go to a small school and don't understand fully what it is pharmacists do in the industry (I know enough to say it is the best thing I can do for myself with a pharmd). I know the onus is on me to find that out but it seems like it is highly competitive and unlikely to turn into a career. On the other hand, this is what engineering does solely. I don't want to spend all the time/money in pharm school just to have it not work out, yet if it does, I will have made the best move of my life. It's essentially a gamble for me. Option 1: I stay in pharmacy school. Outcome A of option 1: I get an industry job and I live happily ever after. Outcome B of option 1: I get a job in retail and hate it (I know I can go back for a PhD and whatever, but by that time, I'll want a family/house etc). Option 2: I drop out and go for a engineering type degree, knowing I'll get at least some satisfaction (however, this requires ample opportunity cost)...... its tough!!!!!!!!!!

This is the huge risk you take by being a pharmacist which most pre-pharms do not realize. 70% of the jobs available to pharmacists are in retail followed by another 20% or so in hospital. You did mention that you like to solve problems and think critically which is done much less than you think in pharmacy practice.

In retail especially, you deal very little with critical thinking and problem solving in the scientific sense. Instead, you're dealing with mostly mindless BS, i.e. getting yelled at by customers because their insurance won't cover a medication or because you won't fill their narcotic script 2 days early (against the law) and trying to meet corporate metrics that do not utilize the pharmacist skills you learn in school.

As an engineer, you at least have the peace of mind knowing that your duties will more than likely line up with your interests. By going into pharmacy you are taking a huge gamble that you won't be part of the masses stuck in the pool of retail floaters fighting for full time hours.

 

[lord999]

At the very least, stick around to obtain a bachelors of pharmaceutical studies so you walk away with something. Despite being accepted into pharmacy, I also have been accepted into an Engineering Program (Electrical) as well as Petroleum Engineering degree (Alaska).

Your right, it’ll take 2.5 years more, but if it’s something you now know then it’s worth the next 30 years of enjoying a career rather than “settling” wondering about all the coulda-woulda-shoulda moments.

Your not the first to think this and won’t be the last if you decide to act on it.

No, having seen the results, I do not recommend finishing a consolation degree like BSPS as it doesn't do anything for you without graduate work. Cut your losses as a sunk cost.

About engineering, medicine, and comp sci, the grass is greener is a common theme on this Board. You have no idea how many ChemE's have been in my office for overwork and issues with cyclical employment. I've commented ad nauseam about the IT industry and the problems keeping employed in that field when you need it most. You might want to ask those who actually work in those fields how they feel about how things work, you'd be surprised at the different challenges the others face, there is a reason why their pay is also relatively good. There are different levels of risks and commitment before and after training and in ways that pharmacists do not necessarily have a good appreciation for as they do not have of pharmacy.

Every job has its ups and downs in the end. I do not recommend ANYTHING in particular to anyone who does not have a grip on who they are besides finding a job conducive to opening opportunities. Despite the pessimism, pharmacy is a well-paid field that has major stressors and honestly is a good profession for the money-conscious, risk-adverse occupational conservative (possibly coward). I count myself among that description as well.

You are no longer a net neutral, by you leaving the program, you have taken an opportunity that someone else could have used even if that opportunity was not for you. You have wasted time and resources, not just yours but others. While I do hope that you do find your way, I also think that by not being introspective enough, you have put yourself far behind the career track in a way that our economy is poised to be far less forgiving.

 

[Momus]

These are the kind of salaries you are looking for as an individual contributor with software engineering degree (comp sci).
Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies

I have seen people get to level 3 or 4 (3rd and 4th row) in a short 5 yrs. Some of them come from overseas with H1B visas because they can't get enough qualified software engineers. They are at the pinnacle of job growth as it was pharmacy in 2004. Random email from recruiters are very common. You need to get to one of the top companies and the doors are wide open for the other top companies to give you the red carpet treatment. Don't forget there is that "More" tab about 30 other companies that you can try your luck with.

 

[mfw04071]

These are the kind of salaries you are looking for as an individual contributor with software engineering degree (comp sci).
Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies

I have seen people get to level 3 or 4 (3rd and 4th row) in a short 5 yrs. Some of them come from overseas with H1B visas because they can't get enough qualified software engineers. They are at the pinnacle of job growth as it was pharmacy in 2004. Random email from recruiters are very common. You need to get to one of the top companies and the doors are wide open for the other top companies to give you the red carpet treatment. Don't forget there is that "More" tab about 30 other companies that you can try your luck with.

Would your recommendation be to finish pharm school, then peruse software engineering part time?

No, having seen the results, I do not recommend finishing a consolation degree like BSPS as it doesn't do anything for you without graduate work. Cut your losses as a sunk cost.

About engineering, medicine, and comp sci, the grass is greener is a common theme on this Board. You have no idea how many ChemE's have been in my office for overwork and issues with cyclical employment. I've commented ad nauseam about the IT industry and the problems keeping employed in that field when you need it most. You might want to ask those who actually work in those fields how they feel about how things work, you'd be surprised at the different challenges the others face, there is a reason why their pay is also relatively good. There are different levels of risks and commitment before and after training and in ways that pharmacists do not necessarily have a good appreciation for as they do not have of pharmacy.

Every job has its ups and downs in the end. I do not recommend ANYTHING in particular to anyone who does not have a grip on who they are besides finding a job conducive to opening opportunities. Despite the pessimism, pharmacy is a well-paid field that has major stressors and honestly is a good profession for the money-conscious, risk-adverse occupational conservative (possibly coward). I count myself among that description as well.

You are no longer a net neutral, by you leaving the program, you have taken an opportunity that someone else could have used even if that opportunity was not for you. You have wasted time and resources, not just yours but others. While I do hope that you do find your way, I also think that by not being introspective enough, you have put yourself far behind the career track in a way that our economy is poised to be far less forgiving.

See I don't feel badly at all. If anything I've just woken up to realize that only a fraction of people are happy with their pharmacy careers. In terms of using the resources, pharmacy schools accept anybody just to try to increase revenue... or so I have read. Now is basically where I decide to stay in pharm school and try to swing an industry job, or pursue something else now. I can always wait until I am graduated and earning a full income to do so.. but I feel this is a waste of time. It all boils down to this; do I bank on industry as my career in pharmacy?

 

[minette]

Would your recommendation be to finish pharm school, then peruse software engineering part time?

See I don't feel badly at all. If anything I've just woken up to realize that only a fraction of people are happy with their pharmacy careers. In terms of using the resources, pharmacy schools accept anybody just to try to increase revenue... or so I have read. Now is basically where I decide to stay in pharm school and try to swing an industry job, or pursue something else now. I can always wait until I am graduated and earning a full income to do so.. but I feel this is a waste of time. It all boils down to this; do I bank on industry as my career in pharmacy?

Are you even sure that you will enjoy working in industry as a pharmacist?

 

[PharmtoCS]

See I don't feel badly at all. If anything I've just woken up to realize that only a fraction of people are happy with their pharmacy careers. In terms of using the resources, pharmacy schools accept anybody just to try to increase revenue... or so I have read. Now is basically where I decide to stay in pharm school and try to swing an industry job, or pursue something else now. I can always wait until I am graduated and earning a full income to do so.. but I feel this is a waste of time. It all boils down to this; do I bank on industry as my career in pharmacy?

You cannot bank on industry as a career in pharmacy. As we have said before, such jobs make up only a tiny fraction of jobs available to pharmacists; you have to be incredibly good at networking, talented, and lucky to end up there. The vast majority of jobs available to pharmacists are in retail.

It's hard to say if you'll even earn a "full" income after you graduate from pharmacy school given the current job market. I would just save yourself the time and tuition and switch to computer science or engineering which is more guaranteed to fit your interest while minimizing your tuition costs.

 

[PA_dud3]

While I'm not one to dissuade others from Pharmacy, it seems like you would be happier with something along the lines of what Stoich has suggested. I feel like I stand a pretty good chance of working in Community/Retail full time, as that is where most of the jobs are and that is where I would feel most comfortable practicing. I would however like to argue that retail pharmacists do a considerable amount of problem solving, just not so much abstract problem solving like you would find in industry. Most retail RPhs seem to solve problems involving patients, insurance, dosages, etc (practical problems, I guess). Also, There aren't many job openings in industry, so I'd recommend rerouting.

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

While I'm not one to dissuade others from Pharmacy, it seems like you would be happier with something along the lines of what Stoich has suggested. I feel like I stand a pretty good chance of working in Community/Retail full time, as that is where most of the jobs are and that is where I would feel most comfortable practicing. I would however like to argue that retail pharmacists do a considerable amount of problem solving, just not so much abstract problem solving like you would find in industry. Most retail RPhs seem to solve problems involving patients, insurance, dosages, etc (practical problems, I guess). Also, There aren't many job openings in industry, so I'd recommend rerouting.

Per your argument, Mcdonalds workers also have to problem-solve a lot. Figuring out how to type in a custom burger in the register, how to serve a schoolbus full of 60 kids that just got out from a soccer tournament at 11:30pm before you close for the night with 2 employees, how to reconcile a discount placed through an app but not received by the store, and how to shuffle homeless people out of the store to loiter elsewhere.

So how is retail pharmacy different from a Mcdonalds again?

 

[owlegrad]

Per your argument, Mcdonalds workers also have to problem-solve a lot. Figuring out how to type in a custom burger in the register, how to serve a schoolbus full of 60 kids that just got out from a soccer tournament at 11:30pm before you close for the night with 2 employees, how to reconcile a discount placed through an app but not received by the store, and how to shuffle homeless people out of the store to loiter elsewhere.

So how is retail pharmacy different from a Mcdonalds again?

Yes, every job where you interact with the public can be framed this way. Any job at a doctor's office could also be framed this way. So your point is?

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

Yes, every job where you interact with the public can be framed this way. Any job at a doctor's office could also be framed this way. So your point is?

My point is that DD3 has no point in his argument. Sounds like you’re agreeing with me.

 

[owlegrad]

My point is that DD3 has no point in his argument. Sounds like you’re agreeing with me.

Well I have to admit I completely misread your point. I thought your point was that because retail pharmacists solve <some> of the same types of problem as McD's that somehow that made it less important than other types of problem solving. My bad.

Although I think you should read my post again, if you think I am agreeing with you.

Although in some ways, you might be right. The very idea of "problem solving" is a nebulous one to me and is basically devoid of meaning. Everyone problem solves all the time. Even the idea of "abstract problem solving" sounds like a meaningless buzz word to me. Do any job long enough and your day to day work is going to become routine. This idea that industry requires more problem solving just sounds like BS to me. You will probably be solving different problem (I would assume, I don't work in that field) but I doubt that "problem solving" can in any object way be meaningfully measured to determine which job requires more or less or what 'type' of problem solving is required.

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

Well I have to admit I completely misread your point. I thought your point was that because retail pharmacists solve <some> of the same types of problem as McD's that somehow that made it less important than other types of problem solving. My bad.

Although I think you should read my post again, if you think I am agreeing with you.

Although in some ways, you might be right. The very idea of "problem solving" is a nebulous one to me and is basically devoid of meaning. Everyone problem solves all the time. Even the idea of "abstract problem solving" sounds like a meaningless buzz word to me. Do any job long enough and your day to day work is going to become routine. This idea that industry requires more problem solving just sounds like BS to me. You will probably be solving different problem (I would assume, I don't work in that field) but I doubt that "problem solving" can in any object way be meaningfully measured to determine which job requires more or less or what 'type' of problem solving is required.

Agree that “problem-solving” is just a nebulous term that can be all-inclusive depending on how you frame it.

I don’t consider the transaction-based “problem solving” in retail pharmacy to be real problem solving. I do consider, however, the project/deliverable-based “problem solving” in industry to require actual strategic thinking. Maybe that’s where I draw the line. Figuring out how to solve a patient’s insurance problem is not the same kind of “problem-solving” as figuring out what tactics you need to employ to convince a doc to prescribe your drug.

 

[899424]

Hi all,

Bear with me here as I bring you up to speed for my question. I am a current P2 in pharmacy school and am having some serious reconsiderations for my career path. In high school, I shadowed a pharmacist and thought 'well this isn't too shabby' and from those 3 hours I foolishly decided to go into a 2+4 early assurance program. I didn't know what I really wanted out of a career back then when I was 16/17; all I knew was that I wanted a nice high paying, well respected career with some decent job security. I was good at math and science, as well as communicating with others, so pharmacy was a decent pick. I got a job as a tech and didn't mind it. I had this job through the second half of high school and still work there now. I have always had some sort of engineering in the back of my mind (though it has come to the forefront recently), as I am passionate about working on problems and creating unique solutions. Moving forward, I did my 2 years undergrad and didn't think much about the quickly coming pharmacy school transition. The P1 year was mostly basic science/physiology which I didn't mind. I find myself now in the P2 year, doing a TON of therapeutics and drug therapy classes. I'll be honest, I really don't care much for it as I am now realizing most of pharmacy school is just memorizing. I am not using my creative problem solving/critical thinking abilities and it is incredibly frustrating to me. This is where I've gotten to thinking about different career paths from my current situation. My most likely path as of now is applying for fellowships to work in the industry and hopefully finding a fit doing something with strategic planning (I know this is broad but I need to do more homework on what industry pharmacists do day to day). I have considered going on (after pharmacy school) to get a PhD in some sort of pharmaceutical sciences, or possibly even dropping back into undergrad to finish my Chem BS, to then move onto something bigger. I don't know what my best option is, as I have already paid quite a bit to pharmacy school, and am a decent portion through it. If anybody has advice on what I should do, it would be greatly appreciated in my time of questioning.

Thank you (especially if you read this giant paragraph)

P.S. I am growing more and more away from anything retail. Being 100% honest, if I could restart college all over again, I probably would just do Chem Eng or something. My only problem is I feel so behind now just to get a Bachelor's degree when I am just as close to getting a Doctor of Pharmacy. If you think that industry has the potential to offer the same level of satisfaction (in terms of project completion/design) then please let me know! I do not want to do anything drastic if I don't have to!

Another FYI, I am 2 classes away from completing a BS in Pharmaceutical Studies, as I have worked on the required classes this year and last year.

Again, sorry for getting long-winded.

Thanks

There's lots of different things you can do to get there, but I know that none of the people around me would want me to drop out of pharmacy school. On the other hand there's people like elon musk the dropped out. For me, I would use my people skills to get me there like know someone that works where you want to work or yourself get there by residency, fellowship or doing something that'll get your foot in the door. Once you are there then it's a matter of how well you do your job and who likes you. And for sure talk to your advisors and professors at school. They might know someone and can link you up or themselves have experience in the industry and write a sweet LOR or make a phone call.

 

[alpha12]

Seems like you would like computer science based on what you said. I was like you and was considering going into pharmacy 10 years ago. I decided to switch and become a programmer and I dont regret it one bit.

 

[899424]

Seems like you would like computer science based on what you said. I was like you and was considering going into pharmacy 10 years ago. I decided to switch and become a programmer and I dont regret it one bit.

That person has no idea what he or she wants, literally is considering like 3 different careers on here.

 

[899424]

Would your recommendation be to finish pharm school, then peruse software engineering part time?

See I don't feel badly at all. If anything I've just woken up to realize that only a fraction of people are happy with their pharmacy careers. In terms of using the resources, pharmacy schools accept anybody just to try to increase revenue... or so I have read. Now is basically where I decide to stay in pharm school and try to swing an industry job, or pursue something else now. I can always wait until I am graduated and earning a full income to do so.. but I feel this is a waste of time. It all boils down to this; do I bank on industry as my career in pharmacy?

Why don't you pursue what you want to do? Every job has it pros and cons, it really depends on your personality and what you like...Your friends that have careers in the field that you're interested can help you more. I'll tell you some of my friends' career experiences. I have a friend that graduated with a ChemE degree with a 4.0 gpa and got a job with an oil company while still in school because she did well in her internship. Yes, she did start out making a lot of money especially since there was a recession, paid off her 25k undergraduate loan in her 1st year working, but they work her ass off. You don't get paid the big bucks anywhere without the company you work for making you work for it. However, her job does have awesome perks. Last time I spoke to her, she was trying to move into management and have a desk job, so she can start having kids. One or three months out of the year the company has her totally switch her schedule, she goes to work at night and sleeps during the day (she is compensated for this). Sometimes I have talked to her and she is getting ready to go to work at 4am and doesn't get out until the sun is going down.
My other friend that is a programmer was getting interviewed by Facebook, IBM, and pharma companies doesn't even have a degree (has experience) lol. That's another one that their life revolves around his job. He loves what he does and would do it even if he was not getting paid for it. I could NEVER do what he does, he sits in front of a computer all day. You know how a frog is stationary well that's him. And is always studying new computer languages and keeping up to date with all the technology changes.
I have another friend that is a construction worker and is at almost at 6 figures. He tells me that he loves his job because loves building things. And he has his own business. He uses his body a lot for work and does more like project management at the construction sites. Does not have a degree, debt, and tons of work experience.
I have a friend that loves sales literally cold calls people and shows up at their houses, and he loves his job. He has tons of autonomy too.
I have a friend that loves being an elementary school teacher and have never wanted or any interest to move into administration because she told me that it would be boring not working with kids.
I picked pharmacy because I like being at high volume pharmacies. I enjoy the fast-pace, interacting with people and all different types of people and it's quick interactions. I like it that it that there's sales involved. One time I was at a pharmacy and I thought I can talk to any of these people here and they will leave with something, but I would not want to be in these people's mouth. I'm telling you that because I switched myself. Pharmacy school is a huge commitment, I know because I'm struggling here since I want to do other things with my life. I want to hang out, don't want to study, dont want to go to class, dont want to adhere to the school's stupid dress code, but I do it all just because I want that Pharm.D. And any of those jobs that I mention above is a commitment too. Any job you do is going to have its downside to it, don't do it for just the money. One of my really good friend once told me going to work will be torture. You have to reflect on it and really figure out what you want.