Aussie Med School FAQ

[shan564]

Starting around this time of year, people seem to flood me with questions about Australian med schools. At this point, my IM box is starting to get full - so I figured it's about time that I just answer all the questions in one big thread, since most people tend to ask essentially the same things.

1. I didn't get into med school in the US/Canada. Can I go to Australia?
Most Australian med schools have very objective admissions policies. Most schools here will let you in with a low GPA (which is poison in North America) as long as your MCAT score is good enough to make up for it. Most schools give equal weighting to your GPA and your MCAT, and then rank applicants based on that. Some schools (currently Sydney and Queensland, but that might change) just treat the GPA as a hurdle, so as long as you're above 2.7ish, they'll only look at your MCAT score and maybe your interview.

2. Is Australia better than the Caribbean?
This is a loaded question which has been discussed thoroughly on the forum. The bottom line is this - in Australia, a world-class university will train you to practice medicine in the Australian system (more clinical-oriented, more concept-based). In the Caribbean, an offshore school will train you to practice medicine in the American system (more science-oriented, intended to make you do well on the USMLE). In other words, you have to do a bit of extra studying if you want to go to North America after graduating - but that's not such a big deal, since the first two years here are pretty lax. Also, the Aussie schools provide a much more thorough and organized training structure during 3rd/4th year, which also helps for the USMLE, since you don't have to take it at hte end of 2nd year.

3. Can I go to North America with an Australian degree?
If you want to go back to North America, you'll need to take the USMLE (just like all the American grads) or the MCCEE/MCQE (like the Canadian grads). Most Aussie schools will let you do a couple of clinical rotations in North America so that you can build up some good connections. You'll also need slightly better USMLE/MCCEE scores than the locals, so you'll have to spend a bit of time studying. In the end, most people do end up making it to North America, but you may have to compromise on your specialty.

4. Will I be able to practice in Australia after I graduate?
This is another loaded question. Starting in 2011, some states won't have enough post-graduate internships to accommodate all of the graduates, although reliable data is hard to come by. This means that non-Australians will be told to go back home. There's a chance that this situation will change, but it's impossible to be certain. Most of the international students in Australia are planning to go to North America if this situation doesn't work out (see question 3).
The number of graduates is increasing progressively every year, so even if the 2011 graduates manage to find internships somewhere in Australia, it seems unlikely that the 2012 graduates will be as lucky (unless something changes). Personally, I think that there'll be pressure on the government to fix the situation after they realize that there are Australian-trained doctors going without internships in 2011... but one thing we all agree upon is that you should definitely have a backup plan.

Addendum (4/30/2012): All of our graduates in 2011 were able to find internships somewhere in Australia. It seems like most of us will find a job in 2012 too, but it's impossible to say for sure at this stage.

5. How will I pay the exorbitant international student fees?
If you're American, you can get Stafford Loans and GradPLUS loans from the US government; the interest rates are a bit high, but that's also what most students do at private universities in the US. If you're Canadian, you'll probably have to get a loan from a bank (unless you're from Alberta, in which case you can also get government loans) - the details of this will vary depending on a wide variety of factors. Other countries have their own policies, but if you're from a developing country, you should look into AusAID scholarships.

6. What's the best medical school in Australia?
Sydney, hands-down. OK, fine, maybe I'm a bit biased...
But seriously, there's no "best" school. All of the medical schools have to match the high standards set by the federal government. It's highly unlikely that anybody in Australia will ever give you any extra respect based on where you went to medical school. On the other hand, some universities do have more name recognition internationally - part of the reason why I chose Sydney is the fact that its name will be recognized no matter what part of the world I'm in.

7. What do you think of life in Australia? Is it better/worse than the US?
"Better" and "worse" are personal preferences - Australia is certainly different, but it's not a huge difference. I love it here, and although there's a long list of pros and cons for both Australia and America, I can't say that I prefer either one over the other.

8. What's the postgraduate training like in Australia? Are the hours and pay as bad as they are in America?
Training takes longer than it does in North America, but it's also much more humane. Here's a summary:

1. Internship (1 year) - $50-60k/year plus double pay for overtime hours. After your internship, you can apply directly to specialty training, but you probably won't get in. So, you do residency for a couple of years.

2. Basic Training (residency) - (indefinite, usually 1-2 years, maybe 3 or 4) - 20% pay increase every year. After internship, you start a "residency" to get more experience. Different specialties require different amounts of time in residency - and you can keep doing more residency years if you don't get into your desired specialty training program. That sounds painful if you compare it to an American residency, but it's actually not that bad - you get paid overtime (which would double your salary if you work 60 hours) and you don't work more than 50-60 hours per week.

3. Advanced Training - (varies by specialty, usually 4-6 years) - 20% pay increase every year. Again, this sounds like it takes a long time, but you earn a junior doctor's salary, you work a full doctor's hours, and you have your own patients. You're basically a doctor at this stage, except that you're a bit lower down in the hierarchy of power.

Most Australian med students actually don't even know what postgraduate training entails until they get through a good chunk of their third year. Since the training hours/salary are so much better than in North America, students don't usually consider those factors when choosing a specialty.



I've received countless questions over the course of the last couple of years, and I've answered just about all of them - so it'd take forever for me to go through every single question here. If you do have any general questions, post them in this thread and I'll either add them to the FAQ or answer them in the thread.

I'll probably go through this list sometime in the not-too-distant future and add more questions/answers. If anybody has any specific suggestions, don't hesitate to post them here.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Raigon]

Starting around this time of year, people seem to flood me with questions about Australian med schools. At this point, my IM box is starting to get full - so I figured it's about time that I just answer all the questions in one big thread, since most people tend to ask essentially the same things.

1. I didn't get into med school in the US/Canada. Can I go to Australia?
Most Australian med schools have very objective admissions policies. Most schools here will let you in with a low GPA (which is poison in North America) as long as your MCAT score is good enough to make up for it. Most schools give equal weighting to your GPA and your MCAT, and then rank applicants based on that. Some schools (currently Sydney and Queensland, but that might change) just treat the GPA as a hurdle, so as long as you're above 2.7ish, they'll only look at your MCAT score and maybe your interview.

2. Is Australia better than the Caribbean?
This is a loaded question which has been discussed thoroughly on the forum. The bottom line is this - in Australia, a world-class university will train you to practice medicine in the Australian system (more clinical-oriented, more concept-based). In the Caribbean, an offshore school will train you to practice medicine in the American system (more science-oriented, intended to make you do well on the USMLE). In other words, you have to do a bit of extra studying if you want to go to North America after graduating - but that's not such a big deal, since the first two years here are pretty lax.

3. Can I go to North America with an Australian degree?
If you want to go back to North America, you'll need to take the USMLE (just like all the American grads) or the MCCEE/MCQE (like the Canadian grads). Most Aussie schools will let you do a couple of clinical rotations in North America so that you can build up some good connections. You'll also need slightly better USMLE/MCCEE scores than the locals, so you'll have to spend a bit of time studying. In the end, most people do end up making it to North America, but you may have to compromise on your specialty.

4. Will I be able to practice in Australia after I graduate?
This is another loaded question. Starting in 2011, there won't be enough post-graduate internships to accommodate all of the graduates. This means that non-Australians will be told to go back home. There's a chance that this situation will change, but it's impossible to be certain. Most of the international students in Australia are planning to go to North America if this situation doesn't work out (see question 3).

5. How will I pay the exorbitant international student fees?
If you're American, you can get Stafford Loans and GradPLUS loans from the US government; the interest rates are a bit high, but that's also what most students do at private universities in the US. If you're Canadian, you'll probably have to get a loan from a bank (unless you're from Alberta, in which case you can also get government loans) - the details of this will vary depending on a wide variety of factors. Other countries have their own policies, but if you're from a developing country, you should look into AusAID scholarships.

6. What's the best medical school in Australia?
Sydney, hands-down. OK, fine, maybe I'm a bit biased...
But seriously, there's no "best" school. Melbourne, Sydney, and ANU have the best reputations as general universities, but the medical schools all have to match the high standards set by the federal government. It's highly unlikely that anybody in Australia will ever give you any extra respect based on where you went to medical school. On the other hand, some universities do have more name recognition internationally - part of the reason why I chose Sydney is the fact that its name will be recognized no matter what part of the world I'm in.

7. What do you think of life in Australia? Is it better/worse than the US?
"Better" and "worse" are personal preferences - Australia is certainly different, but it's not a huge difference. I love it here, and although there's a long list of pros and cons for both Australia and America, I can't say that I prefer either one over the other.


I've received countless questions over the course of the last couple of years, and I've answered just about all of them - so it'd take forever for me to go through every single question here. If you do have any general questions, post them in this thread and I'll either add them to the FAQ or answer them in the thread.

I'll probably go through this list sometime in the not-too-distant future and add more questions/answers. If anybody has any specific suggestions, don't hesitate to post them here.

Very helpful thread. We'll probably ask Kimberly to make it permanently one of the "must-read" threads. I've been meaning to make one myself, but I'm too lazy, plus I've still yet to get accepted (still in the interview phase myself)

Some other questions to consider:

1. Ireland or Israel or other international medical schools versus Australia.
2. How to apply for permanent residence in Australia
3. Path of licensure from med student to intern/junior officer to consultant in Australia
4. What are all the medical schools in Australia and how do they weigh? (I suggest they go to pagingdr for this one).
5. Health care system in Australia vs other countries
6. Interview help (pagingdr)
7. Helpful sites for Australia: (PAGINGDR.NET)

 

[pitman]

Good post, Shan, with possibly one correction. For #4 -- Are you saying that as a nation, there will be more grads than spots (and therefore int'l grads will be forced to leave), or that in every state, there won't be enough spots for its grads? I don't think the latter would be the case for next year, though wouldn't be terribly surprised if the former is.

As for particular states, they all do their own numbers, so when they run out will depend on how they manage their own backyards. I'm not even convinced Qld will run out next year (as for last year, and the year before that...no one knows for sure), while I thought at least SA will still have extra spots for spillover. In states that run out first, int'ls (and AMC candidates) will be the first to be pushed out (except isn't NSW going towards the 2-tier Priority system?), but until there aren't enough *domestic* spots they can generally still go to other states which have a surplus of spots. No?

 

[shan564]

Well, I think SA and WA (and maybe QLD) will have a few extra spots in 2010 and maybe in 2011, but I've never seen any reliable data. The entire country will definitely be supersaturated by 2012 unless they make some changes. I modified my post a bit to make sure that there's no misinformation in there.

 

[OntMedic]

Great thread! I've got a couple additional questions:
- I've seen some mention of obtaining PR while still in school but can't find anything that addresses exactly how this might be possible. Is it possible to obtain PR during school and what other factors are considered in this process? If a Canadian student obtained Australian PR during school, would this then put them on equal footing with Australian students in terms of getting an internships?
- There seems to be a lot of negativity about rural placements in Australia. It may not seem like an important point, but what is the rural broadband internet availability like in the areas of these placements? This would definitely be nice in helping to stay connected with everyone while away at these placements.

Thanks!

 

[Handsome88]

1) I'd like to know about Ireland Vs Australia.
I have a 5yr course acceptance in Ireland. Should I instead go for the four year course in Australia as it is essentially the same but with a year less?

2) Also, How much time off do you get in summers.
3) Do North american electives count towards your degree or are they just "extras"?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Very helpful thread. We'll probably ask Kimberly to make it permanently one of the "must-read" threads. I've been meaning to make one myself, but I'm too lazy, plus I've still yet to get accepted (still in the interview phase myself)

Some other questions to consider:

1. Ireland or Israel or other international medical schools versus Australia.
2. How to apply for permanent residence in Australia
3. Path of licensure from med student to intern/junior officer to consultant in Australia
4. What are all the medical schools in Australia and how do they weigh? (I suggest they go to pagingdr for this one).
5. Health care system in Australia vs other countries
6. Interview help (pagingdr)
7. Helpful sites for Australia: (PAGINGDR.NET)

I"m happy to "sticky" this thread as an FAQ on Aussie admissions but the following should be adhered to:

1) it is a TOS violation to use the SDN forums to promote another site which has competing interests/information/substance (ie, Pagingdr.net) unless they are a partner site. This forum is co-hosted with My Medical Career, an Aussie website; therefore, referring users to another competing website is unfair (given that they're an official sponsor) and not allowed. Posts must be free of commercial bias.

2) The format of this thread needs to be similar to what shan has in his first post - ie, easy to read questions with responses. Otherwise it simply becomes a long list of questions, some answered, some not and difficult to wade through.

I'd suggest that users either PM questions to users who are willing to post them here with answers or that questions are rendered in a Q & A format, with me deleting the original questions, just leaving the answers (which would have included the questions).

3) Info must be verifiable and resources provided. For example, you cannot say school X is the best just because you attend there without stating the inherent bias. It should be fact based not opinion based, unless expressly stated so.

Doing the above will make the thread an official FAQ in my opinion, if that's what you guys want.

 

[shan564]

I'd suggest that users either PM questions to users who are willing to post them here with answers or that questions are rendered in a Q & A format, with me deleting the original questions, just leaving the answers (which would have included the questions).

That's what I had in mind, and if the question is good enough, I figured I'd add it to the first post in the thread.

 

[shan564]

1) I'd like to know about Ireland Vs Australia.
I have a 5yr course acceptance in Ireland. Should I instead go for the four year course in Australia as it is essentially the same but with a year less?

I don't know much about Ireland; the I didn't even look at those schools because they were too expensive. 5 years sounds like a lot - are you sure it's not an undergraduate program?

2) Also, How much time off do you get in summers.

It varies from year to year - at USyd, you get about 2.5 months in the first year, 2 months in the second year, and 1-2 months in 3rd year (depending on how you plan your electives). During 4th year, you can do electives back home (that policy depends on the school), so you can actually stretch out your 2-month break if you have a lenient elective.

3) Do North american electives count towards your degree or are they just "extras"?

Most universities will allow you to do a limited number of electives overseas as a part of your degree. At USyd, you can do elective term (2-3 months) anywhere in the world (many of the locals use it to go to a country that they've always wanted to visit), and you can do your pre-internship term (2-3 months) in your home country.
If you want to do electives that don't count towards your degree, you can do as many as you want during your vacations. USyd also offers you the option to take 3 months off to study for the USMLE (this would delay your graduation, of course), and you can take that time to do another elective if you want to.

 

[shan564]

- I've seen some mention of obtaining PR while still in school but can't find anything that addresses exactly how this might be possible. Is it possible to obtain PR during school and what other factors are considered in this process?

That answer is more complicated than you may think - it depends on a lot of things about your background. The immigration department has a "points test", and you get extra points for a variety of things. For example, you get bonus points if you're an engineer, if you're married, if you speak another language fluently, if you have a lot of work experience, etc. If you want to know the details, check out the immigration department's website; I think it's immi.gov.au.

If a Canadian student obtained Australian PR during school, would this then put them on equal footing with Australian students in terms of getting an internships?

Yes, in most states - I'm not sure about Victoria, they have a slightly different system.

There seems to be a lot of negativity about rural placements in Australia. It may not seem like an important point, but what is the rural broadband internet availability like in the areas of these placements?

The "rural" placements don't actually mean that you'll be living on a farm; the hospital is still in a town of at least 20-30,000. You may not have the fastest Internet services available, but you'll have broadband.

 

[Raigon]

I"m happy to "sticky" this thread as an FAQ on Aussie admissions but the following should be adhered to:

1) it is a TOS violation to use the SDN forums to promote another site which has competing interests/information/substance (ie, Pagingdr.net) unless they are a partner site. This forum is co-hosted with My Medical Career, an Aussie website; therefore, referring users to another competing website is unfair (given that they're an official sponsor) and not allowed. Posts must be free of commercial bias.

I didn't mean to promote another site for commercial basis. I just thought the site was useful and may prove useful to many people. I have no intention of that website promotion or advertisement or telling everyone to flock there.

I'm sorry if that post misled you to think that.

Peace.

And yes, I agree with the rest of what you said. The PM idea sounds great.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Questions:
1) if I went to an australian school, how easy would it be to get enough points to get a PR? Say I have no work experience; b.s. and masters in biological sciences; fluent in 1 european language? Would it be automatic if I married an australian permanent resident or citizen? How about if I married another non-PR person in australia?
2) If you get PR status, how does the whole process of staying in australia work? Let's say you want to go into cardiology or emergency medicine, what would be the pipeline after med school? How long is the residency? How much do you work? How much pay?
3) If you're unsure if you'll get PR status but absolutely want to stay in australia, what can you do? Must you get a job somewhere the summer after your 1st year? And the 2nd, 3rd summer?
4) Can I apply right now for Jan2011 entering class?
5) Does Gradplus/Stafford cover all the expenses in australia or would my parents have to contribute?
Thanks.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Also if your main goal is to stay in australia and to stay in some town in particular does it matter where in australia you go for med school? And where in Australia would it be possible to live if you do not want to see any snakes, crocodiles, or great whites? Also would prefer a temperate climate with little rain. Thanks.

 

[shan564]

Questions:
1) if I went to an australian school, how easy would it be to get enough points to get a PR? Say I have no work experience; b.s. and masters in biological sciences; fluent in 1 european language? Would it be automatic if I married an australian permanent resident or citizen? How about if I married another non-PR person in australia?

Go to the immigration website and look at the points test. Nobody here has it memorized; you're perfectly capable of doing it yourself.

2) If you get PR status, how does the whole process of staying in australia work? Let's say you want to go into cardiology or emergency medicine, what would be the pipeline after med school? How long is the residency? How much do you work? How much pay?

Training takes longer than it does in North America, but it's also much more humane. Here's a summary:

1. Internship (1 year) - $50-60k/year plus double pay for overtime hours. After your internship, you can apply directly to specialty training, but you probably won't get in. So, you do residency for a couple of years.

2. Basic Training (residency) - (indefinite, usually 1-2 years, maybe 3 or 4) - 20% pay increase every year. After internship, you start a "residency" to get more experience. Different specialties require different amounts of time in residency - and you can keep doing more residency years if you don't get into your desired specialty training program. That sounds painful if you compare it to an American residency, but it's actually not that bad - you get paid overtime (which would double your salary if you work 60 hours) and you don't work more than 50-60 hours per week.

3. Advanced Training - (varies by specialty, usually 4-6 years) - 20% pay increase every year. Again, this sounds like it takes a long time, but you earn a junior doctor's salary, you work a full doctor's hours, and you have your own patients. You're basically a doctor at this stage, except that you're a bit lower down in the hierarchy of power.

Most Australian med students actually don't even know what postgraduate training entails until they get through a good chunk of their third year. Since the training hours/salary are so much better than in North America, students don't usually consider those factors when choosing a specialty.

3) If you're unsure if you'll get PR status but absolutely want to stay in australia, what can you do? Must you get a job somewhere the summer after your 1st year? And the 2nd, 3rd summer?

There are a lot of things you can do, but that's a better question for an immigration expert. It depends heavily on a wide variety of factors about you; go to the immigration website, it has all the details you need.
You can get extra points on the immigration test if you have Australian work experience, but you need at least two years of experience at a minimum of 20 hours per week. Meanwhile, you're only allowed to work up to 20 hrs/week on your student visa, so you'd have to work exactly 20 hrs/week for two years.
Another option is to do your internship in another country - internships in New Zealand, Singapore, and Malaysia are recognized by the Australian board. Internships in the US or Canada will also usually be recognized, but those are assessed on a case-by-case basis.

4) Can I apply right now for Jan2011 entering class?

Yes you can. FYI, if you can look something up on your own (Google is a powerful tool), do that before asking here. I'm happy to answer your questions, but nobody likes to answer a question that could just as easily be answered by 10 seconds of googling.

5) Does Gradplus/Stafford cover all the expenses in australia or would my parents have to contribute?
Thanks.

Stafford gives you up to $20,500 USD per year, but GradPLUS makes up for the difference easily. This year, they told me that I could borrow up to $75,000 USD on top of the Stafford loans. My fees are ~$57,000 AUD ($40-50k USD, depending on the economy), so that's more than enough for me.

Keep in mind that Stafford comes with 6.8% interest and PLUS comes with 8.5%. You have to start paying interest on all of it up-front except for the first $8500/year of Stafford, which you can defer until after you graduate.

Also if your main goal is to stay in australia and to stay in some town in particular does it matter where in australia you go for med school?

It's always easier to get a job if you know the doctors in the hospital where you want to work. Also, some states give preference to their own students for internship.

And where in Australia would it be possible to live if you do not want to see any snakes, crocodiles, or great whites?

Any place where people live. Sharks and crocodiles live in water, people live on land - you're more likely to be killed by a lightning strike. Snakes don't come to the cities, and even if they do, they'll leave you alone if you leave them alone... 95% of snakebites happen as a result of somebody messing with the snake. Also, the per-capita snakebite rate in Australia is the same as the US.

Also would prefer a temperate climate with little rain.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I didn't mean to promote another site for commercial basis. I just thought the site was useful and may prove useful to many people. I have no intention of that website promotion or advertisement or telling everyone to flock there.

I'm sorry if that post misled you to think that.

Peace.

And yes, I agree with the rest of what you said. The PM idea sounds great.

I know you meant no harm and sometimes this "rule" is a bit annoying, but SDN does have sponsors and other's interests to protect.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Go to the immigration website and look at the points test. Nobody here has it memorized; you're perfectly capable of doing it yourself.


Training takes longer than it does in North America, but it's also much more humane. Here's a summary:

1. Internship (1 year) - $50-60k/year plus double pay for overtime hours. After your internship, you can apply directly to specialty training, but you probably won't get in. So, you do residency for a couple of years.

2. Basic Training (residency) - (indefinite, usually 1-2 years, maybe 3 or 4) - 20% pay increase every year. After internship, you start a "residency" to get more experience. Different specialties require different amounts of time in residency - and you can keep doing more residency years if you don't get into your desired specialty training program. That sounds painful if you compare it to an American residency, but it's actually not that bad - you get paid overtime (which would double your salary if you work 60 hours) and you don't work more than 50-60 hours per week.

3. Advanced Training - (varies by specialty, usually 4-6 years) - 20% pay increase every year. Again, this sounds like it takes a long time, but you earn a junior doctor's salary, you work a full doctor's hours, and you have your own patients. You're basically a doctor at this stage, except that you're a bit lower down in the hierarchy of power.

Most Australian med students actually don't even know what postgraduate training entails until they get through a good chunk of their third year. Since the training hours/salary are so much better than in North America, students don't usually consider those factors when choosing a specialty.



There are a lot of things you can do, but that's a better question for an immigration expert. It depends heavily on a wide variety of factors about you; go to the immigration website, it has all the details you need.
You can get extra points on the immigration test if you have Australian work experience, but you need at least two years of experience at a minimum of 20 hours per week. Meanwhile, you're only allowed to work up to 20 hrs/week on your student visa, so you'd have to work exactly 20 hrs/week for two years.
Another option is to do your internship in another country - internships in New Zealand, Singapore, and Malaysia are recognized by the Australian board. Internships in the US or Canada will also usually be recognized, but those are assessed on a case-by-case basis.


Yes you can. FYI, if you can look something up on your own (Google is a powerful tool), do that before asking here. I'm happy to answer your questions, but nobody likes to answer a question that could just as easily be answered by 10 seconds of googling.



Stafford gives you up to $20,500 USD per year, but GradPLUS makes up for the difference easily. This year, they told me that I could borrow up to $75,000 USD on top of the Stafford loans. My fees are ~$57,000 AUD ($40-50k USD, depending on the economy), so that's more than enough for me.

Keep in mind that Stafford comes with 6.8% interest and PLUS comes with 8.5%. You have to start paying interest on all of it up-front except for the first $8500/year of Stafford, which you can defer until after you graduate.


It's always easier to get a job if you know the doctors in the hospital where you want to work. Also, some states give preference to their own students for internship.


Any place where people live. Sharks and crocodiles live in water, people live on land - you're more likely to be killed by a lightning strike. Snakes don't come to the cities, and even if they do, they'll leave you alone if you leave them alone... 95% of snakebites happen as a result of somebody messing with the snake. Also, the per-capita snakebite rate in Australia is the same as the US.

Also would prefer a temperate climate with little rain.

Thank you! I did some more reading. I found that some people claim that australian attending salary is really comparable to american. But in USA you can make $200k/yr working as a hospitalist 26wks/yr or $150/hr if you are ER. Either option allows you to have huge vacations and still make $200k. I wonder how much ER physicians really make per hour in Australia. I actually prefer the longer residency as it allows you to make more money as a resident and also allows you to switch out of one specialty into another if you don't like it or perhaps use some skills that you learned in a different specialty. I also noticed that the deadline for Australian schools is soon approaching. And meanwhile I still need to graduate from my masters program in June and to find a summer job. My parents scoffed at my idea of australia and said "why would any country let a foreigner work in their country, you'll be unemployed and 300k in debt".

 

[redshifteffect]

To make more money as a specialist or "attending" as you phrase it you really need to do private practice. There's a lot less hassle in Australia working privately as you aren't dealing with HMOs.

 

[Canuck07]

Another option is to do your internship in another country - internships in New Zealand, Singapore, and Malaysia are recognized by the Australian board. Internships in the US or Canada will also usually be recognized, but those are assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Hey Shan, are foreign graduates studying in Australia getting these international internships rather easily? Correct me if I’m wrong, but the bottle-neck for doctors in Australia seems to be getting the internship. So it would seem that if one wants to settle down in Australia, doing medical school in Australia and internship in New Zealand, Singapore, or Malaysia would be a pretty good strategy.

 

[skatertudoroga]

To make more money as a specialist or "attending" as you phrase it you really need to do private practice. There's a lot less hassle in Australia working privately as you aren't dealing with HMOs.

So how much do drs in Australia make in public hospitals? How much is it for ER and for cardiology? And how does it work that Australians pay taxes for a public health insurance and then also pay for a private health insurance if they want to go to private hospitals? Does it mean that public(university) hospitals suck?

 

[rayjay]

its probably similar to the debate happening in BC in Canada right now. Whether or not having private surgery clinics is allowed. As you know, Canadian healthcare is public (thank god!) and so our taxes pay for it. But there is obviously a portion of the population who can afford their own surgeries or whatever other procedures and don't want to wait in the massively long lineup for non-life threatening procedures. A private surgical clinic opened up in vancouver not too long ago...and was met with mixed reviews.

I gather the system is similar. Those who choose to pay for private can, but ultimately everyone is paying for public. yes? no? way off?

 

[greens]

wrote in wrong posting

 

[redshifteffect]

So how much do drs in Australia make in public hospitals? How much is it for ER and for cardiology? And how does it work that Australians pay taxes for a public health insurance and then also pay for a private health insurance if they want to go to private hospitals? Does it mean that public(university) hospitals suck?

It's hard to answer that question as base salary varies from state to state. There are several factors that determine what any doctor (whether intern, resident, registrar or consultant) earns.

1. Base salary - some states pay a much higher base salary then others.

2. Awards - this depends on your oncalls, after hours work (both rostered and unrostered) etc.

3. Salary packaging - depending on the state this is a portion of your income that is deducted from your salary allowing you to jump to lower tax brackets...you can do things like leasing/buying 100% of a car in pretax income, meal entertainment, etc. There really are as many different types as there are hospitals...so even hospitals within the same state have a variety of different options.

4. Perks - Cars, laptops and in most states 30k/year towards conferences anywhere in the world including hotels, flights etc. A few bosses I worked with (esp rural) were also given things like weekly flights to a capital, free housing, fuel and meals...

So although I could give you an estimate about what a consultant would make, there are too many exceptions to really make this anything more then anecdotal.

BTW. I found out something interesting about private assisting and the 10 year moratorium, and if you'd like the info I suggest you contact the department of health and ageing, as this could add a lot of income to a staff specialists' salary.

 

[shan564]

Hey Shan, are foreign graduates studying in Australia getting these international internships rather easily?

At the moment, it's not an issue. So far, everybody who wants an internship has gotten an internship in Australia. Next year's graduating class will probably be the first one that is short on internships.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the bottle-neck for doctors in Australia seems to be getting the internship. So it would seem that if one wants to settle down in Australia, doing medical school in Australia and internship in New Zealand, Singapore, or Malaysia would be a pretty good strategy.

Or even in the US or Canada - most of the time, Australia will recognize internships from there too.

 

[skatertudoroga]

.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Or even in the US or Canada - most of the time, Australia will recognize internships from there too.

Do you think if you do an internship in New Zealand you could during that time get a PR and apply into EM in Australia as a local? And do you suppose it will be realistic in the future for Sydney medical grads to get internships in New Zealand or the oversupply of drs will spill to New Zealand also?

 

[pitman]

You'll need your 2nd year out (JHO or RMO1) to apply for EM, and virtually all do a PHO year (in their 3rd year out) while applying to get in to the college.

 

[skatertudoroga]

What do you think of studying medicine in Sydney, then going to new zealand to do your internship, then apply to usa for emergency medicine as PGY-1 (but hopefully get more consideration because you are now more experienced than your average med school grad)?

 

[sunshinevet]

So how much do drs in Australia make in public hospitals? How much is it for ER and for cardiology? And how does it work that Australians pay taxes for a public health insurance and then also pay for a private health insurance if they want to go to private hospitals? Does it mean that public(university) hospitals suck?

You really need to learn to do some of your own research, its a bit of a common theme for all your posts. Google is your friend, don't be afraid.

As for the healthcare system - no, our public hospitals do not suck. Not all hospitals are "public" and "private" some are, but some are mixed - its more if you have private health insurance, it just covers more of the cost, you're less likely to have to pay an overhead. Public health insurance doesn't cover all of your expenses, and thats why some people have private health insurance.

But pretty much, anything you NEED done, will be covered by public health insurance (except ambulances, strangely enough). Private health insurance is a bit more like, you want a private room in the hospital, you want someone to pay your dentist and physio bills, make it a bit quicker to get elective surgery etc. I mean, my mother had her gallbladder removed under the public health system - she didn't pay a dime, except for the initial surgeons consultation. But it took 6 months before it was removed - if she had been a private patient, it would have taken 6 weeks. But it would have been done by the same surgeon anyway.

Pretty much all doctors work in both the private and the public systems - it really depends on your patients, it doesnt overly change your reimbursement as a doctor. (unless your a GP who does bulk billing).

 

[shan564]

What do you think of studying medicine in Sydney, then going to new zealand to do your internship, then apply to usa for emergency medicine as PGY-1 (but hopefully get more consideration because you are now more experienced than your average med school grad)?

There are a couple of things wrong with that plan:

1. New Zealand is a very small country, and they have to accommodate their own graduates too. They'll have a few extra places, but not enough to accommodate everybody.

2. You could apply to PGY1 right after med school; if you want to go to the US, why bother spending a year in NZ?

3. You won't get any more consideration because of your extra experience. There are thousands of fully-licensed doctors in India who don't get places in the US despite their experience.

 

[s4184553]

At the moment, it's not an issue. So far, everybody who wants an internship has gotten an internship in Australia. Next year's graduating class will probably be the first one that is short on internships.



Or even in the US or Canada - most of the time, Australia will recognize internships from there too.

so just to clarify...

being a Canadian in Australia doing my MBBS, I want to ideally end up practicing in Australia. So it's actually plausible to graduate here, do my internship in Singapore, then return to Australia to practice?

Also, how would that work in terms of getting an Australian PR? Given that after graduating here, we need to work here for 1 year (as an intern) before we're registered and thus eligible for the points to apply for a PR, would doing an internship in Singapore entitle us to be registered here?

Thanks!

Tim

 

[toescrossed]

ACER preferences?

Does it really matter which school you put first? How does it effect your chances at both schools you select?

Thanks!

 

[marble30]

ACER preferences?

Does it really matter which school you put first? How does it effect your chances at both schools you select?

Thanks!

To my understanding, for ACER, you're only considered for your second choice if the school that you put as your first choice rejects you pre-interview. However, I have heard of people getting passed onto to their second choice if they don't do as well for their interviews at their first choice.

 

[skatertudoroga]

What happens if you get an offer in october and you are waiting from american schools? Is there a way to hold that offer or accept it without paying >$1000 until December or so?

And also please tell me if it is realistic to get a PR in australia while a medical student? Let's say I am a typical premed and do not qualify for PR right now. How realistic is it to work 20hrs/wk(or arrange with someone that I volunteer a certain # of hrs/wk and he records it as work 20hrs/wk) in a research lab? And would that qualify me for PR in the 3rd year?
Thanks.

 

[sunshinevet]

What happens if you get an offer in october and you are waiting from american schools? Is there a way to hold that offer or accept it without paying >$1000 until December or so?

And also please tell me if it is realistic to get a PR in australia while a medical student? Let's say I am a typical premed and do not qualify for PR right now. How realistic is it to work 20hrs/wk(or arrange with someone that I volunteer a certain # of hrs/wk and he records it as work 20hrs/wk) in a research lab? And would that qualify me for PR in the 3rd year?
Thanks.

Not possible. Your employment would be verified through the Australian Taxation Office - which would have no tax for you as you wouldn't have been employed - and you'd both get done for fraud.

 

[toescrossed]

Thanks Marble!

 

[shan564]

being a Canadian in Australia doing my MBBS, I want to ideally end up practicing in Australia. So it's actually plausible to graduate here, do my internship in Singapore, then return to Australia to practice?

Plausible, yes. Likely? That's a different question. We don't know how accepting Singapore will be of Australian grads, since we haven't really had any significant number of people apply there yet. Once the tsunami hits, it'll be a different story.

Also, how would that work in terms of getting an Australian PR? Given that after graduating here, we need to work here for 1 year (as an intern) before we're registered and thus eligible for the points to apply for a PR, would doing an internship in Singapore entitle us to be registered here?

You don't need to work HERE for 1 year, you just need to be registered here as a junior doctor. You can do that with foreign training if the RACP recognizes it.

 

[shan564]

ACER preferences?

Does it really matter which school you put first? How does it effect your chances at both schools you select?

Although that question could have been answered just as easily by reading ACER's website, I'll answer it for you anyway.

Your application will only go to your first-preference school. If you get an interview there, then that'll be your only interview; even if you don't get in, your second-preference will never even see your application. If you don't get an interview at your first preference, then your application will go to your second-preference school. So, you should be careful when selecting your preferences; it's best to choose a first-preference where you think you have a good shot at admission.

 

[shan564]

What happens if you get an offer in october and you are waiting from american schools? Is there a way to hold that offer or accept it without paying >$1000 until December or so?

Remember, when you decline your offer, your place goes to somebody else. That means that if you "hold" your offer, then that other person wouldn't be able to get their offer. For that reason, you can't hold an offer past the deadline; if you want to hold the offer, you have to pay the money.

And also please tell me if it is realistic to get a PR in australia while a medical student? Let's say I am a typical premed and do not qualify for PR right now. How realistic is it to work 20hrs/wk (or arrange with someone that I volunteer a certain # of hrs/wk and he records it as work 20hrs/wk) in a research lab?

It's realistic, but it'll be difficult. That really depends on the person. There are 168 hours in every week; you should spend 56 of them sleeping, which leaves another 112. You won't spend more than 30 hours in class, so you still have 82+ hours to play with. Even if you spend 30 hours a week studying (4 hrs/day), that still leaves another 52 hours that you can spend working. The question is just how much leisure time you want.

And would that qualify me for PR in the 3rd year?

How many times have I told you to look at the immigration requirements yourself? The points system is all online, and there are several calculators that'll add the numbers for you in case you don't know how to do arithmetic. I can't tell you whether it'll qualify you for PR, since there are a lot of other variables involved (your age, your undergrad degree, your ethnic background, your work experience, etc). None of us have the points table memorized, so you're just as capable as anybody else to look it up.
Word of advice - don't ask people for help when you can do something just as easily on your own. People are usually happy to help you whenever it's necessary, but if you overuse that facility, you'll end up losing your credibility - and that's something you can't get back easily.

 

[redshifteffect]

Excellent summary Shan!

 

[pitman]

http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/visa-options.htm

 

[Handsome88]

I asked before about Ireland Vs Australia, here is a thread for anyone who is interested.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=729071

 

[skatertudoroga]

Remember, when you decline your offer, your place goes to somebody else. That means that if you "hold" your offer, then that other person wouldn't be able to get their offer. For that reason, you can't hold an offer past the deadline; if you want to hold the offer, you have to pay the money.


It's realistic, but it'll be difficult. That really depends on the person. There are 168 hours in every week; you should spend 56 of them sleeping, which leaves another 112. You won't spend more than 30 hours in class, so you still have 82+ hours to play with. Even if you spend 30 hours a week studying (4 hrs/day), that still leaves another 52 hours that you can spend working. The question is just how much leisure time you want.


How many times have I told you to look at the immigration requirements yourself? The points system is all online, and there are several calculators that'll add the numbers for you in case you don't know how to do arithmetic. I can't tell you whether it'll qualify you for PR, since there are a lot of other variables involved (your age, your undergrad degree, your ethnic background, your work experience, etc). None of us have the points table memorized, so you're just as capable as anybody else to look it up.
Word of advice - don't ask people for help when you can do something just as easily on your own. People are usually happy to help you whenever it's necessary, but if you overuse that facility, you'll end up losing your credibility - and that's something you can't get back easily.

Thank you. I don't think that Australia is for me.
1) Since they make you accept an offer in Oct/Early Nov and pay a full semester fee it means that if you're waiting to hear from american schools, that offer is not very helpful.
2) I don't think I would get a PR before finishing school if I went to australia.
3) As such Australia would not be a "laid back" experience in any sens8e.

So from doing some research I've decided that a school like U Sydney would offer better education than many american m.d. schools and better than any DO school, I would still prefer to attend a DO school for professional reasons. Though I would prefer to attend an american m.d. school to have a chance to move to canada or australia in the future. Or at least to do 4th year electives in foreign countries.

 

[Mordecai]

It's very frustrating for non- Aussies. All I can add (as an Aussie) is that the rules keep changing all the time. This is an election year, and so we can expect more changes after November.
Immigration seems to be a real issue.

 

[redshifteffect]

It's very frustrating for non- Aussies. All I can add (as an Aussie) is that the rules keep changing all the time. This is an election year, and so we can expect more changes after November.
Immigration seems to be a real issue.

I feel really sorry for the people that had their applications for the 175 suspended because of the reworking of the CSL and SOL! Talk about bad timing as they were being given priority earlier in the year (assuming they were on the CSL).

 

[OntMedic]

Hey Shan, are foreign graduates studying in Australia getting these international internships rather easily? Correct me if I’m wrong, but the bottle-neck for doctors in Australia seems to be getting the internship. So it would seem that if one wants to settle down in Australia, doing medical school in Australia and internship in New Zealand, Singapore, or Malaysia would be a pretty good strategy.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm also curious about internship options outside of Australia just to be aware of what my options are. I thought I read somewhere that South Africa is also an option for internship year before returning to Australia. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[skatertudoroga]

I regret I did not apply to australian schools. I kind of felt the last couple of days that I wanted to do family medicine and australia is a good place for that. And while it's hard to get any other residency, I am sure I would've worked something out if I were committed to FM.

 

[redshifteffect]

Don't know about South Africa, but I can confirm New Zealand and Singapore are options, as I work with plenty of doctors from those two countries.

At the moment it's recognised at internship, and all got general registration without the AMC exams, but rules change quickly so it might not be the case in a few years time.

 

[shan564]

I just thought I'd bump up this thread, since it's getting to that time of year when people tend to start sending me messages with these same questions.

 

[jcat92]

One thing I have not heard many people talk about in regards to student loans (you mentioned two kinds) is whether or not you can take out living expenses (you are required to have 15k/yr to get a student visa) and how this works out.... with some quick math if you are going to the cheapest school in Australia (Monash or Deakin ~45k) then you would have about 250k in loans at the end give or take... I'm just wondering if people find this worrisome, or if it is manageable. If, perhaps, you did family medicine, with interest rates, is this kind of debt justifiable? Anyone with personal experience ... replies are much appreciated!!!

 

[shan564]

One thing I have not heard many people talk about in regards to student loans (you mentioned two kinds) is whether or not you can take out living expenses (you are required to have 15k/yr to get a student visa) and how this works out....

Yes you can, assuming that you have federal loans. They give you quite a generous allowance for living expenses. This year, I was allowed up to $20,500 for Stafford (which I took) and about $98,000 for GradPLUS (of course, I only took a small part of that).

with some quick math if you are going to the cheapest school in Australia (Monash or Deakin ~45k) then you would have about 250k in loans at the end give or take... I'm just wondering if people find this worrisome, or if it is manageable. If, perhaps, you did family medicine, with interest rates, is this kind of debt justifiable? Anyone with personal experience ... replies are much appreciated!!!

Well, that might be a better question for people in the "Finance" section of SDN. There are plenty of American students who borrow just as much money as those of us who go to Australia, so there's a lot of discussion about this there.
Still, family doctors in the US can make $150-200k/year, so it's not unreasonable to think that you can pay off $50k in your loans every year. Of course, that depends largely on the lifestyle to which you're accustomed... I know a lot of people at my school who couldn't bear to live in an apartment that I would consider reasonably-priced.

If you're considering Monash/Deakin, then you should take a closer look into the federal loan structure. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'm under the impression that not all of the Aussie schools are eligible for US federal loans. I know that Sydney is (that's where I am) and I'm pretty sure that Melbourne and Queensland are, but I'm not sure about the others.