ATSU/SOMA (Arizona) Discussion thread 2007-2008

[HippieChick]

Anyone from March 7th and 14th interviews hear back from Joyce? I'm dying here!

Me too! I called and e-mailed Joyce today and no word yet... My friend called her this morning and found out he wasn't accepted so I know the decisions have been made, and I think that makes me feel even worse cuz I haven't heard anything

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[Dr76]

Me too! I called and e-mailed Joyce today and no word yet... My friend called her this morning and found out he wasn't accepted so I know the decisions have been made, and I think that makes me feel even worse cuz I haven't heard anything

That sucks. I didn't hear anything either. I was going to call, but didn't want to be too pushy, since Joyce said she "might" get back to people on the 24th. Well, I guess I'll call her tomorrow. I'm gona stay optimistic and think to myself that she didn't get to contact everyone yet. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[DoctorSpock08]

I am in the same situation- nothing yet. May be Joyce didn't call anyone today at all...

 

[KingTRITON7cs]

My wife and I are looking at out finances, and the allowable limit for student loans just doesn't look like it will be enough. We plan to apply for WIC, but we want to know what other assistance programs are out there and if anyone has had success using them.

Where do you find the allowable limit at? Is there a cap?

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I am in the same situation- nothing yet. May be Joyce didn't call anyone today at all...

I see Joyce right now, but she is really busy with interviews today so if she calls you guys it probably would be much later today. If not im sure tomorrow will be the day. I know the wait SUCKS...good luck all..

 

[Dr76]

I see Joyce right now, but she is really busy with interviews today so if she calls you guys it probably would be much later today. If not im sure tomorrow will be the day. I know the wait SUCKS...good luck all..

Thanks for the info. That explains it, as I've been trying to reach her all day by phone. I guess I'll be patient and keep waiting *sigh*

 

[HippieChick]

I see Joyce right now, but she is really busy with interviews today so if she calls you guys it probably would be much later today. If not im sure tomorrow will be the day. I know the wait SUCKS...good luck all..

Thanks! I thought she would prob be doing interviews today, so hopefully later this afternoon or tomrorow we can find out!

 

[LauraDO]

Just got an interview invite to this school, to bad it didn't come a bit earlier I was interested in learning more about the set up. Good luck to everyone!

 

[HippieChick]

Thanks! I thought she would prob be doing interviews today, so hopefully later this afternoon or tomrorow we can find out!

Well Joyce finally got back to me and unfortunnately I did get in Its too bad cuz i really loved SOMA and felt I was perfect for their program, but at least I have a back up! Good luck to everyone else whose still waiting to hear!

 

[prionsRbad]

Well Joyce finally got back to me and unfortunnately I did get in Its too bad cuz i really loved SOMA and felt I was perfect for their program, but at least I have a back up! Good luck to everyone else whose still waiting to hear!

Wait you said you did get in, but I guess you mean you didn't get in?

I'm sorry if you didn't make it in, but that means you get to come to DCOM and hang out with me!

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Well Joyce finally got back to me and unfortunnately I did get in Its too bad cuz i really loved SOMA and felt I was perfect for their program, but at least I have a back up! Good luck to everyone else whose still waiting to hear!

Im sorry to hear you didnt get in. You sound like you were a good match for SOMA, but you never know about interviews, and interviewers. Honestly I still wonder how some of my current classmates got into SOMA, because there are some who IMO DONT fit what the mission of SOMA is supposed to be.

Good luck at DCOM, Tennessee is gorgeous and you will certainly get a great education there.

 

[HippieChick]

Wait you said you did get in, but I guess you mean you didn't get in?

I'm sorry if you didn't make it in, but that means you get to come to DCOM and hang out with me!

Haha, yeah my mistake, I didnt get in! DCOM is gonna be awesome though, Im super excited

 

[Fluidsmash]

Yes we are in graduate school, but it is considered "Undergraduate medical education". Residency is graduate medical education.

So we dont promote to undergrads (ie. people without a BA or BS yet) but promote it among each other, meaning we have more practice and events for DO students really interested in OMT.

That clears that up thanks for clarifying.

By the way I just found out I have been accepted. I am looking for housing and I have a question about that. Most places ask for a year contract, so I want to head to AZ the beginning of July and I am wondering when we would be sent to the CHC's the following year.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

That clears that up thanks for clarifying.

By the way I just found out I have been accepted. I am looking for housing and I have a question about that. Most places ask for a year contract, so I want to head to AZ the beginning of July and I am wondering when we would be sent to the CHC's the following year.

Nope most places dont ask for a year lease. They usually have options for leases 3 months, 6 months, 9months, 1 year. Theres lots of great deals right now cause the real estate market is so bad. You can expect to be done with first year mid July (like us) and you have to report to your CHC by the first week of September. Im pretty sure it will stay like this for the second class of SOMA. BTW congratulations on acceptance. Which CHC are you assignd too?

 

[prionsRbad]

Haha, yeah my mistake, I didnt get in! DCOM is gonna be awesome though, Im super excited

Woo Hoo! I was going to say can't wait to meet you, but I already have!

 

[Fluidsmash]

Haha, yeah my mistake, I didnt get in! DCOM is gonna be awesome though, Im super excited

I was looking forward to meeting you HippieChick you sound like you will be a great doctor. I guess I will have to wait until we are working to save the underserved together. Congrats on DCOM.

 

[Fluidsmash]

Nope most places dont ask for a year lease. They usually have options for leases 3 months, 6 months, 9months, 1 year. Theres lots of great deals right now cause the real estate market is so bad. You can expect to be done with first year mid July (like us) and you have to report to your CHC by the first week of September. Im pretty sure it will stay like this for the second class of SOMA. BTW congratulations on acceptance. Which CHC are you assignd too?

Thanks, I will be going to Oregon, which is great because the Salud program is associated with another clinic that I want to someday work for.

 

[GreenShirt]

That clears that up thanks for clarifying.

By the way I just found out I have been accepted. I am looking for housing and I have a question about that. Most places ask for a year contract, so I want to head to AZ the beginning of July and I am wondering when we would be sent to the CHC's the following year.

The first year is ~11.5 months long from the beginning of August to the middle/end of July, so you will want to be looking at year long contracts. If you want to move in in July, you will need to find a place that will allow you to go month to month at the end of the contract. Usually there is a surcharge for the extended monthly rent. At my complex, I think it's about 10% of the regular monthly rent for the extension.

 

[HippieChick]

I was looking forward to meeting you HippieChick you sound like you will be a great doctor. I guess I will have to wait until we are working to save the underserved together. Congrats on DCOM.

Aw thanks

 

[27272003]

Can any of you who have applied to multiple schools and got acceptances at some and denied at others give me an idea of what you scored on your MCAT. I am sure many of you out there have played the numbers game just like I am right now. I just want to know where I stand. Thanks for your help.

 

[prionsRbad]

Can any of you who have applied to multiple schools and got acceptances at some and denied at others give me an idea of what you scored on your MCAT. I am sure many of you out there have played the numbers game just like I am right now. I just want to know where I stand. Thanks for your help.

www.mdapplicants.com is a great resource to use if you're curious about other people's stats. You can even search applicant stats for each school and see who was accepted, waitlisted and rejected. Also, some people here on SDN have their MDapps link under their profile pic.

Good Luck

 

[Xoynx]

Im sorry to hear you didnt get in. You sound like you were a good match for SOMA, but you never know about interviews, and interviewers. Honestly I still wonder how some of my current classmates got into SOMA, because there are some who IMO DONT fit what the mission of SOMA is supposed to be.

Good luck at DCOM, Tennessee is gorgeous and you will certainly get a great education there.

DCOM's gain is SOMA's loss--there's a severe shortage of hippies in Mesa, and the campus really could use a few hits of flower power. I guess hippies tend to grow better in soggier climes.

But Needleman is right: I don't know why the hell we have some of the students that we do. Doesn't Wood say outright on Interview Day that SOMA is for FP docs, not specialists, and that the latter would be much better off elsewhere? (I consider OMM/NMM as more of a subclass of family practice, BTW, a skill that augments FP work.)

 

[Fluidsmash]

So I found a house in Mesa that I want to rent but it is about seven miles from campus. Being from Oregon I am part eco freak and I wanted to ask how the public transportation was in Mesa. Along the same lines I was wondering how bike friendly the roads are. I would like to live in this house but I don't want to drive to school everyday. Is that a possibility?

 

[DrMattOglesby]

im wondering--
is the class for ATSU-SOMA filled yet?
how did you receive your notice of an interview (or pre-interview rejection)?
phone call? email? post mail?

 

[LauraDO]

im wondering--
is the class for ATSU-SOMA filled yet?
how did you receive your notice of an interview (or pre-interview rejection)?
phone call? email? post mail?

I recieved an interview invite through email

 

[Crunchy120]

So I found a house in Mesa that I want to rent but it is about seven miles from campus. Being from Oregon I am part eco freak and I wanted to ask how the public transportation was in Mesa. Along the same lines I was wondering how bike friendly the roads are. I would like to live in this house but I don't want to drive to school everyday. Is that a possibility?

Sorry Fluid there is little to no public transport here. There are some buslines but they are scant and the only ones I've seen are for malls. Roads are okay for bikes depending on which ones you take. Some have no bike lanes and some have really decent ones. Be careful though, AZ drivers are some of the worst I have ever experienced. Some real idiots out on the roads. Seven miles is pretty good too. 7 miles is gonna take you around 25-30 minutes I would guess. I live about 2 miles from campus and it takes me like 10-15 minutes on bike and only 5 on the road Not to shabby. I hope this helps.

-Crunchy

 

[oskibear]

I hate biking here! I second the comment on the drivers...they are NOT used to cyclists, and the bike lanes are few and far between. In addition, the speed limit is grotesquely high here and you get people doing 55 in residential areas. The posted limit is 45.
Okay...one plus...there are these fabulous canals that run for dozens of miles that are paved in parts, and dirt in other parts. You can ride all the way to the mountains! Mountain biking is awesome.

There IS a good bike route PDF you can use to find the safest way from A to B though. People do bike to and from school. But if you're from the bike-haven of Oregon (esp Portland!) you are going to be frustrated for awhile.

 

[Fluidsmash]

Thanks for the help with the pub trans and bike info. Here is my next question for all of you. I am married and have a new daughter and I am trying to figure out health insurance. From what I understand I need to have a beefed up health insurance that covers needlesticks, blood born pathogens, and other things like that. I have been looking online at some different insurance options but I haven't found anything that I think I can afford. Right now I can't sign up for medicaid because my wife and I both make too much money and I don't want to wait until I am down and out so I can be covered by medicaid.

In short what are all of you doing for health insurance?

 

[Fluidsmash]

There IS a good bike route PDF you can use to find the safest way from A to B though. People do bike to and from school. But if you're from the bike-haven of Oregon (esp Portland!) you are going to be frustrated for awhile.

Where do I find this bike route PDF?

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Thanks for the help with the pub trans and bike info. Here is my next question for all of you. I am married and have a new daughter and I am trying to figure out health insurance. From what I understand I need to have a beefed up health insurance that covers needlesticks, blood born pathogens, and other things like that. I have been looking online at some different insurance options but I haven't found anything that I think I can afford. Right now I can't sign up for medicaid because my wife and I both make too much money and I don't want to wait until I am down and out so I can be covered by medicaid.

In short what are all of you doing for health insurance?

There is Health Choice AZ for you and your family you can sign up for once you get out here. Getting insurance to cover needle sticks is really not expensive. For myself I pay about $79 a month. It will have a high deductible but i use Health choice for everything else since it doesn't cost me anything. There is a woman who is iin the insurance biz that helped me find my coverage and she helps a lot of the students at ATSU. I am IM you her info.

 

[swordxaxe]

Where do you find the allowable limit at? Is there a cap?

If you go to the AT Still website and go to the Arizona School of Medicine, one of the sublinks for the finance section gives the student budget, which sets the ceiling on Federal loans at @ $65K.

 

[LauraDO]

Does anyone know what CHC's are still available? Any word on SC?

 

[Altruist]

LauraDO,
As of earlier this week when I was there, the only CHCs with open slots were Ohio, South Carolina, and Alabama. There is always a chance people will shift around, though.

For those who interviewed earlier this week and were told that the admissions committee would meet on Wednesday, April 2: That meeting was postponed until Monday, the 7th, according to Joyce.

 

[LauraDO]

LauraDO,
As of earlier this week when I was there, the only CHCs with open slots were Ohio, South Carolina, and Alabama. There is always a chance people will shift around, though.

For those who interviewed earlier this week and were told that the admissions committee would meet on Wednesday, April 2: That meeting was postponed until Monday, the 7th, according to Joyce.

Thank you that is very helpful I really appreciated it

 

[luba12]

Hey guys, this is my first time writing on SDN, but I'm super excited I just found out that I was accepted to SOMA. I think the school is awesome and I love the new program!!!
Anyone out there that is looking for housing, I'm looking for a room mate to share a 2 bedroom apartment, the bedrooms are the same size and both have a walk in closet, their own bathrooms, and also the there is a fireplace in the unit and a washed and dryer in the unit. I have all the furniture, so it would be a furnished apartment and the rent will be only $450 a month.
Please let me know in anyone is interested!!! I can send you pictures and a floor plan!
Also give me a shout if you are going to be in my class (CLASS 2012)

 

[Fluidsmash]

I have a question about the importance of living close to campus. There is a neighborhood about seven miles from campus that I want to live in. I am wondering if it is a very good idea to live so far from campus. It seems like the classes are well organized and blocked together so I feel like I won't be coming and going from campus very often and it seems like it will be all right.
Any advice from the vetrans on this issue. Thanks.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I have a question about the importance of living close to campus. There is a neighborhood about seven miles from campus that I want to live in. I am wondering if it is a very good idea to live so far from campus. It seems like the classes are well organized and blocked together so I feel like I won't be coming and going from campus very often and it seems like it will be all right.
Any advice from the vetrans on this issue. Thanks.

I drive from about 10 miles away! Its easy. Classes start at 8am, so I leave 30 mins early. I dont go home for lunch, either bring my lunch or eat on campus or out. Classes usually end by noon, but occassionally there are afternoon classes for an hour or two. On your anatomy assigned day, you are there in the aternoon. On Thursday, OPP and Med skills day, you are there til 5pm. I study at school, or at local libraries during the week, go home by 6 and study at home. Test weekends I study at ASU Noble science library.

7 miles is cake Just dont plan on driving back and forth during the day--gas is getting expensive.

 

[blah354]

has anyone heard back from joyce? the wait is killing me!

 

[blah354]

has anyone heard back from joyce? the wait is killing me!

anyone? anyone know about how long the wait is? joyce told us, but i can't remember. does anyone know which day she usually makes the calls?

 

[Fluidsmash]

I interviewed on a Friday, Joyce told us that the admissions com. was going to meet on the following Wed and she would get back to us Thur. or Fri. It ended up being a long week and a half longer, the wait is terrible huh, good luck.

 

[RySerr21]

anybody willing to talk to me about the 2nd year experiences and how exactly it works? ive explored the ATSU wesbsite, but would like to know more about it! or maybe i just missed a link on their website that explains it in greater detail....you can just post that link if it does exist. or just PM me. thanks for the help!

 

[GreenShirt]

anybody willing to talk to me about the 2nd year experiences and how exactly it works? ive explored the ATSU wesbsite, but would like to know more about it! or maybe i just missed a link on their website that explains it in greater detail....you can just post that link if it does exist. or just PM me. thanks for the help!

Well, to tell you the truth no one knows exactly how its going to work in the second year because the details are still being planned and it will vary slightly from CHC to CHC. The idea is to spend half the time in class and half in the clinic seeing patients. The systems-based modules will continue as in the first year.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Well, to tell you the truth no one knows exactly how its going to work in the second year because the details are still being planned and it will vary slightly from CHC to CHC. The idea is to spend half the time in class and half in the clinic seeing patients. The systems-based modules will continue as in the first year.

The clinical aspect of the training has been discussed with us already. SOMA has styled the structure of the clincial education after the Cambridge Integrative model http://www.challiance.org/news/press_releases_07/070328_clerkship.shtml. Each student will get a group of patients following certain criteria ie. a pregnant woman, a diabetic px, etc. We follow these patients throughout year 2, 3, and 4 to create continuity of care.

 

[guamie]

anyone? anyone know about how long the wait is? joyce told us, but i can't remember. does anyone know which day she usually makes the calls?

it should take about a week or two. after asking for my fall class grades, they finally accepted me. maybe sending in (good) add'l info will help? anyway, i know how you feel. i'm still waiting to hear back from a few schools, and it's driving me crazy. it's like, if you're going to reject me, reject me already!!

anybody going to porterville, cali for their chc?

and is it true that only sc, ohio, and the midwestern states' chc are the only ones that are left? my friend is interviewing this friday and i'm hoping we can go to the same chc (porterville).

 

[primadonna22274]

Hello all,

I've read the entire thread and appreciate your responses. SOMA wasn't on my radar until I had a recent email correspondence with Dr Bob Bowman who used to be at U Nebraska and recommended I consider SOMA.

I'm a PA with 7.5 years of primary care experience. I've been waffling on applying to med school for at least half of that time but am really ready to apply for 2009 matriculation. I am originally from Oregon but now in SC and have a sister and grandparents in Arizona.

I'm very intrigued by the CHC model but my biggest concern is whether the inpatient/hospital rotations are sufficient. After almost 9 years of taking care of patients (including clinical year in PA school) I am very comfortable with outpatient care and general medicine, but my weak point is inpatient care. I've done 1.5 yr of EM which helped a lot with recognition and initial stabilization/management of very sick but as far as hospital care goes I really want to bone up on that. Can any of you speak to how much inpatient care exposure you'll really get in this CHC model?

I'm also considering HPSP since my husband is prior military (Navy) and I'm already in deep debt from PA school. I've been curious how that works with the CHC rotations but figure I'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. My first choices for CHCs would be Oregon (anywhere) and Arizona. I really wouldn't want to move back across country a year later since it's so expensive and my ultimate goal is to get back home.

Thanks all of you,

LIsa

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Hello all,

I've read the entire thread and appreciate your responses. SOMA wasn't on my radar until I had a recent email correspondence with Dr Bob Bowman who used to be at U Nebraska and recommended I consider SOMA.

I'm a PA with 7.5 years of primary care experience. I've been waffling on applying to med school for at least half of that time but am really ready to apply for 2009 matriculation. I am originally from Oregon but now in SC and have a sister and grandparents in Arizona.

I'm very intrigued by the CHC model but my biggest concern is whether the inpatient/hospital rotations are sufficient. After almost 9 years of taking care of patients (including clinical year in PA school) I am very comfortable with outpatient care and general medicine, but my weak point is inpatient care. I've done 1.5 yr of EM which helped a lot with recognition and initial stabilization/management of very sick but as far as hospital care goes I really want to bone up on that. Can any of you speak to how much inpatient care exposure you'll really get in this CHC model?

I'm also considering HPSP since my husband is prior military (Navy) and I'm already in deep debt from PA school. I've been curious how that works with the CHC rotations but figure I'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. My first choices for CHCs would be Oregon (anywhere) and Arizona. I really wouldn't want to move back across country a year later since it's so expensive and my ultimate goal is to get back home.

Thanks all of you,

LIsa

Inpatient/hospital rotations are a necessary part of med school rotations in year 3-4. All of the CHCs have hospitals as part of the CHC campus, or have partnerships with hospitals. Some of my classmates are HPSP funded. There will be no problem with CHC rotations. The one thing with our program is that the summer between yr 1 and 2 does not have enough time to fit in OTS since we go until mid July, so this will have to be done at the end of school before residency is what I have heard. I was set to sign up for the Army HPSP, but decided against it after a conversation with a physician who was the former head of AF medical education. Lets just say he said it wasnt worth it. If you want more info abt it PM me or look at the Military Medicine threads.

 

[primadonna22274]

Thank you. I have heard some positives, some negatives of milmed as well.

I just received an email from Lauren (admissions counselor) and asked her these questions as well. We'll see what she can tell me.

Thanks again
Lisa

Inpatient/hospital rotations are a necessary part of med school rotations in year 3-4. All of the CHCs have hospitals as part of the CHC campus, or have partnerships with hospitals. Some of my classmates are HPSP funded. There will be no problem with CHC rotations. The one thing with our program is that the summer between yr 1 and 2 does not have enough time to fit in OTS since we go until mid July, so this will have to be done at the end of school before residency is what I have heard. I was set to sign up for the Army HPSP, but decided against it after a conversation with a physician who was the former head of AF medical education. Lets just say he said it wasnt worth it. If you want more info abt it PM me or look at the Military Medicine threads.

 

[GreenShirt]

Hello all,

I'm very intrigued by the CHC model but my biggest concern is whether the inpatient/hospital rotations are sufficient. After almost 9 years of taking care of patients (including clinical year in PA school) I am very comfortable with outpatient care and general medicine, but my weak point is inpatient care. I've done 1.5 yr of EM which helped a lot with recognition and initial stabilization/management of very sick but as far as hospital care goes I really want to bone up on that. Can any of you speak to how much inpatient care exposure you'll really get in this CHC model?

Thanks all of you,

LIsa

Some of the CHCs are pretty much full-blown hospitals (Tuscon, Phoenix, New York) with associated clinics, whereas others are mainly a conglomeration of clinics with referral hospitals. The school leans towards producing clinical practitioners rather than hospitalists since the majority (>90%) of physician practice on an out-patient basis. However, regardless of your CHC setup you will have exposure to tertiary care through your EM, surgery, and elective rotations. There is also talk of following your clinic patients to the hospital if they have a need of inpatient care.

 

[primadonna22274]

True but IMO there is definitely a need for a primary care doc, even if s/he practices exclusively outpatient medicine, to have cared for critically ill people IN THE HOSPITAL while in training. I recognize most of this happens in residency but wouldn't we be at a disadvantage as first year interns if we had pretty much only seen outpatient clinic? That's what I'm wondering about the CHC sites. Still intrigued though.
L.

Some of the CHCs are pretty much full-blown hospitals (Tuscon, Phoenix, New York) with associated clinics, whereas others are mainly a conglomeration of clinics with referral hospitals. The school leans towards producing clinical practitioners rather than hospitalists since the majority (>90%) of physician practice on an out-patient basis. However, regardless of your CHC setup you will have exposure to tertiary care through your EM, surgery, and elective rotations. There is also talk of following your clinic patients to the hospital if they have a need of inpatient care.

 

[GreenShirt]

True but IMO there is definitely a need for a primary care doc, even if s/he practices exclusively outpatient medicine, to have cared for critically ill people IN THE HOSPITAL while in training. I recognize most of this happens in residency but wouldn't we be at a disadvantage as first year interns if we had pretty much only seen outpatient clinic? That's what I'm wondering about the CHC sites. Still intrigued though.
L.

Let me start with an anecdotal story: The accreditation committee recently visited SOMA for a routine inspection. They liked what the school was doing and gave it a favorable review. However, they were hung up on one thing: Why on earth had SOMA decided to do their rotation in a bunch of clinics instead of hospitals like other schools? In response, the deans piled the committee members into a van and drove them to Tuscon CHC. The committee was apparently absolutely dumbfounded by what they saw there (in a good way). It was giant modern hospital complex with hundreds of inpatient beds and multiple sprawling satellite clinics. They had thought that the CHCs were just mom and pop type facilities. On the ride back to Phoenix they were absolutely giddy with praise for SOMA for choosing the NACHC as a partner for clinicals.

Back to your concern: Medical school is really about learning the basics of medicine (taking history and physicals, writing SOAP notes, knowing your bugs and drugs...which you probably have down with your PA experience...so you may get a little bored with med school). Most of the higher training beyond that will occur, as you have pointed out, during your residency. Seeing inpatient is probably adventitious in the sense that it helps expose you to hospital culture and the way things are done in tertiary rather than ambulatory setting but you will not likely be able to master all the skills necessary to care for critically ill patients as a 3rd of 4th year med student. Again, if you are in the 90% of physicians that practice on an out-patient basis, understanding the intricacies of inpatient care is not as useful to you and understanding those of outpatient care. But remember, at SOMA you will have plenty inpatient exposure.

I guess the caveat to the whole argument is that the best current students can give you is educated speculation on the subject since no one has gone through the program yet, a lot is just theory at the moment. However, I feel that the CHC will provide us with an individualized environment in which to learn the basics of medical practice (we're their students and their future) and the opportunity to see continuity in patient care (we use the intergrated clerkship model).

Best thing to do: Apply to many places and see which ones speak to you on interview day. I frankly did not think I would end up at SOMA when I looked at it on paper (it was too weird), but on interview day, I fell in love and didn't want to go anywhere else.