Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[PL198]

That's an interesting philosophical point. But international terrorists have largely been from educated and well-to-do families. Bin Laden and the 911 crew were Saudis from good families. It's an inconvenient truth for lovers of Noam Chomsky, Chris Hedges, democracy now, and the sociopathic and sadistic executioner that bears your namesake that social ills don't cause terrorism. Ideology does.

There's plenty of ridiculously poor societies that don't export maniacal killers.

Not to mention there are plenty of poor societies that don't have a particularly strong faith in any religion.

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[tdram]

So now you're saying that belief is based on being sheltered? You're just stating a bunch of conjectures to fit your argument. Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk and many times when I disagree with people in arguments I can still see where they are coming from, but I truly don't understand how somehow being intelligent enough to question your origin means that it's not possible a god is real.

The point is that God has been the moral compass of many societies for hundreds of years. This is independent of whether God actually exists or not. The moral compass only works if everyone believes in it. Once we start to question it, this concept of God breaks down and ceases to hold the power it had, or in other words, our concept of god dies. This has nothing to do with whether or not an actual god exists somewhere.

 

[PL198]

The point is that God has been the moral compass of many societies for hundreds of years. This is independent of whether God actually exists or not. The moral compass only works if everyone believes in it. Once we start to question it, this concept of God breaks down and ceases to hold the power it had, or in other words, our concept of god dies. This has nothing to do with whether or not an actual god exists somewhere.

Moral compasses are based off religion, not off a potential god. Religion is based off dictations from men, not from god. All changing moralities show in my opinion is a lack of agreement with what some random dude transcribed one day. I feel like this is an important distinction. This reminds me of the whole " why I love jesus but hate religion " video on youtube.

 

[tdram]

Moral compasses are based off religion, not off a potential god. Religion is based off dictations from men, not from god. All changing moralities show in my opinion is a lack of agreement with what some random dude transcribed one day. I feel like this is an important distinction. This reminds me of the whole " why I love jesus but hate religion " video on youtube.

Well, yes, that's true, humans came up with religion. However, the idea of religion is that their moral compass is derived from God. That's what makes it so powerful. If there's no god in the picture, then it's just another dude telling you how to live. That's not quite the same for a religious person.

 

[mirabelle]

The point is that God has been the moral compass of many societies for hundreds of years. This is independent of whether God actually exists or not. The moral compass only works if everyone believes in it. Once we start to question it, this concept of God breaks down and ceases to hold the power it had, or in other words, our concept of god dies. This has nothing to do with whether or not an actual god exists somewhere.

Adam and Eve believed in God. Then generations after, people started to follow their own desires (you know people tend to believe what they desire, when they have no contact with the reality) Many civilizations have had prophetes who came and delivered the message that God exists and He created them, and they reminded them of the moral principles...and then a period of time after, they repeated the pattern. Religion is about knowing who you are, why you exist. If you don't believe in God then, somehow, you have a veil that covers your heart, you're kind of disconnected. And sincerely, I don't envy you. My advice is: don't trust everything that seems logical since it doesn't imply that it is true. It is simple, the truth is like the light, you see it or you don't. If you are blind, don't go around explaining to people what they are supposed to see. The proofs of the existence of God are everywhere and yet, a lot of people don't believe in Him, they exist because God wanted them to exist, and yet they don't believe in Him. If only you knew what you are missing...Life doesn't mean a thing without God.

 

[tdram]

Adam and Eve believed in God. Then generations after, people started to follow their own desires (you know people tend to believe what they desire, when they have no contact with the reality) Many civilizations have had prophetes who came and delivered the message that God exists and He created them, and they reminded them of the moral principles...and then a period of time after, they repeated the pattern. Religion is about knowing who you are, why you exist. If you don't believe in God then, somehow, you have a veil that covers your heart, you're kind of disconnected. And sincerely, I don't envy you. My advice is: don't trust everything that seems logical since it doesn't imply that it is true. It is simple, the truth is like the light, you see it or you don't. If you are blind, don't go around explaining to people what they are supposed to see. The proofs of the existence of God are everywhere and yet, a lot of people don't believe in Him, they exist because God wanted them to exist, and yet they don't believe in Him. If only you knew what you are missing...Life doesn't mean a thing without God.

Isn't this exactly what you're doing in this post?

 

[Nasrudin]

Adam and Eve believed in God. Then generations after, people started to follow their own desires (you know people tend to believe what they desire, when they have no contact with the reality) Many civilizations have had prophetes who came and delivered the message that God exists and He created them, and they reminded them of the moral principles...and then a period of time after, they repeated the pattern. Religion is about knowing who you are, why you exist. If you don't believe in God then, somehow, you have a veil that covers your heart, you're kind of disconnected. And sincerely, I don't envy you. My advice is: don't trust everything that seems logical since it doesn't imply that it is true. It is simple, the truth is like the light, you see it or you don't. If you are blind, don't go around explaining to people what they are supposed to see. The proofs of the existence of God are everywhere and yet, a lot of people don't believe in Him, they exist because God wanted them to exist, and yet they don't believe in Him. If only you knew what you are missing...Life doesn't mean a thing without God.

Great. Go nuts. Just keep it out of science text books and national foreign policy and the civil rights of other people. And realize we're attacking what happens when absolute certainty in salvation for a select few acts as a tinder box for violence and apocalyptic scenarios.

Kumbaya it up. Jesus the humble hippy is someone I would love to smoke a joint with myself.

 

[doublehoo]

I find this topic really fascinating and am intrigued by the perspectives everyone has contributed here (know I'm jumping in late...). I've noticed people generally approach this with a goal of how to 'get around' the tension or escape inciting any offense. It's as if science and faith are mutually exclusive, a sleeping dragon to be jumped over without getting bitten. And sure, always good to avoid getting bitten (or biting!)...but, particularly when it comes to medicine, why not look for the reconciliation point? View it as a quality of a person like any other, a piece of information that could be of potential benefit?

If someone needed exercise and you learned that they hated going to the gym or playing sports, but loved dogs, you might suggest they offer to walk a friend's dog daily. Presumably the whole mindset of an effective doctor is to cure or help to the best of his ability his patient. Whatever you personally believe, surely it can't hurt to try everything possible to get them better, provided it wouldn't harm them (and is within doctor's scope, legality, blahblah). I absolutely believe in willpower and there's evidence for the placebo effect, along with ongoing studies into mind-body connection (look at studies on depression, 'practicing' smiling in order to elicit a feedback loop).

If someone's beliefs were to come up, I think it's worth looking for ways to run with that instead of away from it. The same way you might (subconsciously) influence a parent to fight to live by talking to them about their children, if it helps a patient to believe a deity is watching over them, why not encourage them to hold onto their faith, whether by letting them talk about it or whatever, in hopes it'll help them recover? It shouldn't even require disclosing your own beliefs: is it possible to redirect? "What do you, the patient, believe? That's what matters here, not my beliefs."

As a general response to some previous points: if someone believes in God and thus His role in creating everything, that faith carries over to their 'belief' in medicine. If you believe God put you on this earth for some purpose, doesn't it follow he did the same with your physician? God's a busy guy; he needs to delegate tasks as much as any company boss (which, to some extent, is why it confuses me when people denounce vaccines/drugs/inventions under the claim that "God or prayer alone will fix me"...it reminds me of that old joke:
A man gets hit by a car and prays to God to save him. An ambulance comes by and he sends it away saying, "God will save me." Another ambulance comes by and, though in bad shape, he holds fast and tells it to leave stating, "God will save me." But he dies. When he gets to the gates of Heaven and asks God, "God, why didn't you come to save me?", God replies, "I sent you two ambulances!")

But anyway, the point of all that being, rather than view faith-friction as an obstacle, why not look for ways to use a patient's worldview to help him/her without having to be untrue to yourself? You can't influence someone's actions (i.e. health, here...) by appealing to a system they don't believe in; this is a place where objective empathy (if that makes sense) rules all. I'm by no means saying this is necessary all the time, but I think looking for paths of benefit is a perspective ultimately worth more thought than being on the defensive.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Atheists do this weird thing where they seem to be very preoccupied with the religion of others, despite not having one of their own. It's similar to who a lot of conservative Christians seem to be all bent out of shape about the homosexuality of others despite not being homosexual themselves. In six years, only twice did the religion of coworkers ever come up. No one cares. Except, strangely enough, atheists. These conversations were always initiated by atheists- dude, we don't care about your lack of belief, nor do we care what each other believes. What we do when we go home is between us and whatever higher power we do or don't believe in. And I never had a single case of a patient questioning the beliefs of their physicians or caregivers- they've got bigger things to worry about if they're in the hospital than what you do on Sunday morning FFS.

So much this. Every forum, I swear.

 

[IonClaws]

Religion is about knowing who you are, why you exist.

No, religion is about following dogma for the sake of following dogma and believing stories regardless of whatever happens that suggests otherwise.

If you don't believe in God then, somehow, you have a veil that covers your heart, you're kind of disconnected. And sincerely, I don't envy you...Life doesn't mean a thing without God.

Right, because if I don't follow what your parents or whoever else taught you blindly, I am completely incapable of finding joy and fulfillment in anything else. Goals, family, friends, secular but humanistic moral principles?? Psssshhhh. All that matters is that magic mind in the sky.

My advice is: don't trust everything that seems logical since it doesn't imply that it is true.

Logic makes things more likely to be true, not less likely.

The proofs of the existence of God are everywhere and yet, a lot of people don't believe in Him, they exist because God wanted them to exist, and yet they don't believe in Him. If only you knew what you are missing...Life doesn't mean a thing without God.

Religion relies on faith, not proof. The "proof" is only there if you have faith, and in that case it isn't proof at all. The same goes for everything else in this part of the quote - God only wants you to exist if you believe so, not the other way around.

You know, religious people don't necessarily bother me. It's just when they get judgmental about other people that really gets me irked.

 

[Nasrudin]

So much this. Every forum, I swear.

You can't expect Wall Street to regulate itself. The same with God's chosen. If the issue doesn't interest you, I get it. But why do people care about cricket? I don't know, but they do. (We do.)

 

[PL198]

The most devout religious people I've ever met felt 0 need to ever publicize their faith, nor have I ever heard them attempt to convince someone else of another faith of anything. Additionally they are completely accepting of people of other religions. The people I know that pretend they are devout, yet do almost everything their religion recommends not to, those are the people who post facebook statuses about religion, tell others about their faith and always attempt to convince others of things.

I guess it's judgmental on my part, but if I look at "how faithful someone actually is", there's almost an inverse linear relationship between how devout someone is and how judgmental and superiority complex-like that they act, as well as the need to make their faith(or lack-thereof) public.

 

[tdram]

For a person who claims not to be religious @PL198, you are really getting worked up over how we're characterising religious people.

 

[IonClaws]

The most devout religious people I've ever met felt 0 need to ever publicize their faith, nor have I ever heard them attempt to convince someone else of another faith of anything. Additionally they are completely accepting of people of other religions. The people I know that pretend they are devout, yet do almost everything their religion recommends not to, those are the people who post facebook statuses about religion, tell others about their faith and always attempt to convince others of things.

I guess it's judgmental on my part, but if I look at "how faithful someone actually is", there's almost an inverse linear relationship between how devout someone is and how judgmental and superiority complex-like that they act, as well as the need to make their faith(or lack-thereof) public.

Interesting point. It's pretty much over compensation.

 

[tdram]

Interesting point. It's pretty much over compensation.

I don't buy this because religions are designed to spread. Pretty much every religion instructs its followers to spread the word. Many religions claim it is the follower's duty to show others the light. Given, that, and my personal experience, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the most devout religious people would not have any interest in spreading their faith.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

I'm agnostic, just because I don't see a point in wondering about a God or an afterlife. My views are that if either exist and I would change my behavior because of this, it would be a failure on my part. I would think that would be god-fearing.

This sums up exactly the way I feel. I consider myself agnostic too and have never spent a great deal of time wondering about the existence of a God or not because either way, I should be living a moral life and making choices and actions that do good and make me proud of who I am simply because it is the right way to live and not because there is some higher power watching over me and deciding my afterlife based on my
choices and actions in this life.

I've spent a lot of time discussing religion with friends of various faiths and have attended church, temple, mosque, and other types of worship with them. In the end I actually don't see that much of a difference between our end goals of living a life where we have a positive effect onto others, though our specific reasons for doing so may be different.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

I don't buy this because religions are designed to spread. Pretty much every religion instructs its followers to spread the word. Many religions claim it is the follower's duty to show others the light. Given, that, and my personal experience, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the most devout religious people would not have any interest in spreading their faith.

The most devout spread their faith by example (i.e., living life by adhering to religious principles) rather than by in-your-face confrontation. Of course, if you ask them about their faith, they'll be more than happy to teach you.

 

[2Pints]

I don't buy this because religions are designed to spread. Pretty much every religion instructs its followers to spread the word. Many religions claim it is the follower's duty to show others the light. Given, that, and my personal experience, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the most devout religious people would not have any interest in spreading their faith.

I consider my faith extremely important and openly discuss theology if ever asked questions. You won't hear me asking "Have you heard the good news?" and trying to evangelize to everybody. That's the kind of stuff that originally kept me away from God. Nobody "convinced" me either so that is never my point when I answer questions.
I'm probably not the norm. I just bring this up to say that being devout and spreading one's religion aren't always directly related.

 

[carparker]

Great. Go nuts. Just keep it out of science text books and national foreign policy and the civil rights of other people. And realize we're attacking what happens when absolute certainty in salvation for a select few acts as a tinder box for violence and apocalyptic scenarios.

Kumbaya it up. Jesus the humble hippy is someone I would love to smoke a joint with myself.

This is a good summary of the major problems with religion. I have no issue with belief up until you tell scientists how to science, people who they're allowed to sleep with, or women that they can't have access to birth control.

 

[tdram]

This is a good summary of the major problems with religion. I have no issue with belief up until you tell scientists how to science, people who they're allowed to sleep with, or women that they can't have access to birth control.

Here's a pretty good summary of some of the major issues with religion... I have no problem with people having whatever faith they want, but this kind of stuff needs to stop.

 

[carparker]

@tdram, you win for completeness!

 

[Roxas]

A lot of crime is committed without any religious affiliation as well...

Plus, I am religious and have never been guilty of any of the above. As much as you want to believe we are all they same, it's simply not true

 

[tdram]

A lot of crime is committed without any religious affiliation as well...

Plus, I am religious and have never been guilty of any of the above. As much as you want to believe we are all they same, it's simply not true

I was just pointing out the major issues - side effects, if you will - of religion. I was not implying that all religious people behave like the above. Crime that has nothing to do with religion is irrelevant to this discussion. I am pointing out religiously motivated crime here only.

Edit: When I bring these points up, most people rush to defend their religion, rather than express their outrage against the people who are using their religion to commit heinous crimes. That always surprises me.

 

[Roxas]

I was just pointing out the major issues - side effects, if you will - of religion. I was not implying that all religious people behave like the above. Crime that has nothing to do with religion is irrelevant to this discussion. I am pointing out religiously motivated crime here only.

Or it's possible that there are simply a lot of "religious" people in the world, and some of them are bad. Clearly the one's committing some of the above acts aren't true representatives of what religion teaches. "Religiously motivated crime" seems like an incredible contradiction to me, but you are making a case that this is the norm.

I am well aware that after 7 pages of this thread, you certainly aren't going to change your mind. I just ask that you accept the possibility that maybe people are going to do horrible things whether they are affiliated with religion or not, and religion is just the face that they put on it to justify it to themselves.

Like I said, I'm religious, and I've never hurt or harassed anyone. Why would you continue to fight against my right to believe what I want?

 

[tdram]

Or it's possible that there are simply a lot of "religious" people in the world, and some of them are bad. Clearly the one's committing some of the above acts aren't true representatives of what religion teaches. "Religiously motivated crime" seems like an incredible contradiction to me, but you are making a case that this is the norm.

I am well aware that after 7 pages of this thread, you certainly aren't going to change your mind. I just ask that you accept the possibility that maybe people are going to do horrible things whether they are affiliated with religion or not, and religion is just the face that they put on it to justify it to themselves.

Like I said, I'm religious, and I've never hurt or harassed anyone. Why would you continue to fight against my right to believe what I want?

If you're hurting someone because they believe in a different religion or are atheist, or because of something written in your holy book, it's a religiously-motivated crime. If you behead someone because they said something bad about your religion, that's a religiously motivated crime. If you withhold treatment from a sick child because your religion tells you to, that's a religiously motivated crime. I don't know how you could come to any other conclusion.

I never made a case it was the norm. However, it is prevalent in the world and problematic.

You can feel free to believe what you want - that's not the point. The point is your beliefs have no business in anyone else's life other than your own.

 

[Roxas]

If you're hurting someone because they believe in a different religion or are atheist, or because of something written in your holy book, it's a religiously-motivated crime. If you behead someone because they said something bad about your religion, that's a religiously motivated crime. I don't know how you could come to any other conclusion.

I never made a case it was the norm.

You can feel free to believe what you want - that's not the point. The point is your beliefs have no business in anyone else's life other than your own.

You seem to be talking about specific religion(s), in which case, attack them. Not every religion preaches/practices this. There were no beheadings in the 26 years I've spent as a church goer.

 

[tdram]

You seem to be talking about specific religion(s), in which case, attack them. Not every religion preaches/practices this. There were no beheadings in the 26 years I've spent as a church goer.

I'm not here to attack anybody's religion. I'm here to point out problems with religion that need to be addressed, regardless of what religion it happens to be.

Edit: Note that my earlier post covered problems in every major religion. I'm not singling anybody out.

 

[Wordead]

A lot of crime is committed without any religious affiliation as well...

Plus, I am religious and have never been guilty of any of the above. As much as you want to believe we are all they same, it's simply not true

#notallchristians

 

[Roxas]

I'm not here to attack anybody's religion. I'm here to point out problems with religion that need to be addressed, regardless of what religion it happens to be.

Edit: Note that my earlier post covered problems in every major religion. I'm not singling anybody out.

And all I'm saying is that those problems may also exist among individuals with no religious conviction as well. Ignorance, hate, greed, etc can be found among all populations. Hate the actions themselves and not the religion.

On the other hand, if it truly makes you sleep easier at night, continue your crusade of bigotry and intolerance against anyone who thinks differently than you. Bringing this back to thread topic, I'm sure your patients will appreciate you correcting how wrong they are when they ask you to pray with them.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

Those pictures you posted just show the outcome of taking anything, religious beliefs or otherwise, to an extreme. If anything, those pictures demonstrate how people have the capacity for extreme hate and evil, not that these qualities are inherently tied to religion.

 

[Nasrudin]

And all I'm saying is that those problems may also exist among individuals with no religious conviction as well. Ignorance, hate, greed, etc can be found among all populations. Hate the actions themselves and not the religion.

On the other hand, if it truly makes you sleep easier at night, continue your crusade of bigotry and intolerance against anyone who thinks differently than you. Bringing this back to thread topic, I'm sure your patients will appreciate you correcting how wrong they are when they ask you to pray with them.

Well what exactly do you suppose allowed normal German citizens to smell the death of millions of people in neighboring Hamlets only to claim they never knew. 1500 years of Christian anti-semitism capitalized on by nazi propaganda machinery.

Ideology HAS CONSEQUENCES. If your Holy books make gangster rappers look timid then what do you think is gonna happen when it's viewed as the word of an all powerful God. That grants people a choice between eternal life or eternal misery and damnation.

Religion is a key component of tribalism on earth. People don't issue fatwas without religious authority. And the like. The evidence is just not on your side here. What you would like to be so, is sadly not.

 

[tdram]

Those pictures you posted just show the outcome of taking anything, religious beliefs or otherwise, to an extreme. If anything, those pictures demonstrate how people have the capacity for extreme hate and evil, not that these qualities are inherently tied to religion.

So you believe that religious leaders and religious texts have no part in encouraging this behavior? For example, the > 100 verses of the Koran that promote violence against non-believers are not in any way to blame? Even a lot of Christians seem to agree with me on that one.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

So you believe that religious leaders and religious texts have no part in encouraging this behavior? For example, the > 100 verses of the Koran that promote violence against non-believers are not in any way to blame?

I think those religious leaders who promote hate against non-believers are examples of those extremists who practice and preach hate and evil like I mentioned above. They twist passages and quotes out of their holy book to serve their agenda and take advantage of people who are easily manipulated/brainwashed with their messages. I have read parts of the Quran, and don't recall seeing verses promoting violence, quite the opposite actually. If you can prove otherwise, please provide references. It's the words of God twisted by man to serve a hateful agenda that gives religion (all religions) a bad name.

 

[tdram]

I think those religious leaders who promote hate against non-believers are examples of those extremists who practice and preach hate and evil like I mentioned above. They twist passages and quotes out of their holy book to serve their agenda and take advantage of people who are easily manipulated/brainwashed with their messages. I have read parts of the Quran, and don't recall seeing verses promoting violence, quite the opposite actually. If you can prove otherwise, please provide references. It's the words of God twisted by man to serve a hateful agenda that gives religion (all religions) a bad name.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

For example:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

 

[tdram]

I think those religious leaders who promote hate against non-believers are examples of those extremists who practice and preach hate and evil like I mentioned above. They twist passages and quotes out of their holy book to serve their agenda and take advantage of people who are easily manipulated/brainwashed with their messages.

The problem is, with religion a lot of people don't ask questions and blindly follow what they're told. That's one problem with religion that makes it a much more dangerous tool for controlling people than anything else.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

The problem is, with religion a lot of people don't ask questions and blindly follow what they're told. That's one problem with religion that makes it a much more dangerous tool for controlling people than anything else.

I completely agree, and that was partially what I was trying to say. It is very easy to manipulate people with religion because it is one of the few things that people will believe without question if that is the way they have been raised since childhood. But again, the fact that leaders know to do this and exploit this is another example of the capacity for people to perform evil, with religion used as their tool/weapon.

Does that make everyone who professes faith in some religion evil and manipulative? Of course not.

 

[Roxas]

Well what do exactly do you suppose allowed normal German citizens to smell the death of millions of people in neighboring Hamlets only to claim they never knew. 1500 years of Christian anti-semitism capitalized on by nazi propaganda machinery.

Ideology HAS CONSEQUENCES. If your Holy books make gangster rappers look timid then what do you think is gonna happen when it's viewed as the word of an all powerful God. That grants people a choice between eternal life or eternal misery and damnation.

Religion is a key component of tribalism on earth. People don't issue fatwas without religious authority. And the like. The evidence is just not on your side here. What you would like to be so, is sadly not.

(So glad we've devolved to the point of Godwin's law btw, every religion=nazis)

Clearly those running the camps weren't very good Christians. They may have exploited a population's feelings on the matter, but shocking as it may seem, that's not what religion advocates. Fear is a powerful tool in exploiting people, just as much if not more so than religion. Similar (not necessarily in magnitude, but in nature) acts as have been conducted with motives other than (or in addition to) religion, such as lust for power or wealth. @WhippleWhileWeWork already put this point a lot better than I could, so just read back a few pages.

In the end I'm just surprised that so many on here who claim to be the opponents of hate and intolerance, seem to be doing nothing but spreading it. Now if you'll excuse me for a bit, I have to go to church. Come at me.

 

[tdram]

I completely agree, and that was partially what I was trying to say. It is very easy to manipulate people with religion because it is one of the few things that people will believe without question if that is the way they have been raised since childhood. But again, the fact that leaders know to do this and exploit this is another example of the capacity for people to perform evil, with religion used as their tool/weapon.

Does that make everyone who professes faith in some religion evil and manipulative? Of course not.

I guess religion is a lot like guns. Not everyone who owns a gun uses it for evil, but in the wrong hands they can cause quite a lot of damage.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Whoa. I opened this thread and immediately regret my decision.

 

[Roxas]

I guess religion is a lot like guns. Not everyone who owns a gun uses it for evil, but in the wrong hands they can cause quite a lot of damage.

I can agree with this.

Unless (let me guess) you want to ban guns?

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

I guess religion is a lot like guns. Not everyone who owns a gun uses it for evil, but in the wrong hands they can cause quite a lot of damage.

Idk if you were being sarcastic here, but yes I would agree with this analogy.

 

[tdram]

I can agree with this.

Unless (let me guess) you want to ban guns?

I don't want to ban guns. I'm not in favor of banning things in general.

Guns are still incredibly dangerous though. It's about 100x easier to kill someone when you have a gun.

 

[Nasrudin]

I guess religion is a lot like guns. Not everyone who owns a gun uses it for evil, but in the wrong hands they can cause quite a lot of damage.

It's worse yet. As I'm sure you would agree. Religion is not as neutral as cold steel and gunpowder. Happy day if it only were.

With regards to church goer above. I never said religion = Nazism, but that dangerous ideologies operate the same way regardless of whose wielding them. And they're certainly not something to disregard at the offended insistence of their apologists with skin in the game.

 

[tdram]

It's worse yet. As I'm sure you would agree. Religion is not as neutral as cold steel and gunpowder. Happy day if it only were.

With regards to church goer above. I never said religion = Nazism, but that dangerous ideologies operate the same way regardless of whose wielding them. And they're certainly not something to disregard at the offended insistence their apologists with skin in the game.

Exactly, my point was simply that religion is not as harmless as many were trying to argue here. It can easily be used to do a lot of harm, and is one of the most commonly used tools for evil. Religion gets put in your brain at an early age, before you're able to think for yourself, making it a very convenient backdoor for brainwashing and control.

 

[NontradCA]

Whoa. I opened this thread and immediately regret my decision.

Haha, what did you expect after reading the title?

 

[Roxas]

Exactly, my point was simply that religion is not as harmless as many were trying to argue here. It can easily be used to do a lot of harm, and is one of the most commonly used tools for evil. Religion gets put in your brain at an early age, before you're able to think for yourself, making it a very convenient backdoor for brainwashing and control.

You're operating under the pretense that religion of any kind is fake. That's fine for you, but for someone such as myself that believes that Deity is very real, all the same points could be made for upbringings without religion. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, anti-theism is in every way just as dangerous as theism

 

[Roxas]

If anyone else here is willing to lower their guns and agree to disagree with me, I think it was put best earlier when someone said that extremism of any kind can be dangerous.

 

[tdram]

You're operating under the pretense that religion of any kind is fake. That's fine for you, but for someone such as myself that believes that Deity is very real, all the same points could be made for upbringings without religion. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, anti-theism is in every way just as dangerous as theism

Since humanity can't seem to agree whether religion is real or fake, and if it is real, which version of it is the most authentic, maybe it's best to leave each person to decide on his/her own which path to follow, once they've gained the ability to think and analyze things for themselves.

 

[NontradCA]

You're operating under the pretense that religion of any kind is fake. That's fine for you, but for someone such as myself that believes that Deity is very real, all the same points could be made for upbringings without religion. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, anti-theism is in every way just as dangerous as theism

You're operating under the pretense that belief = religion. This is false. Religion is an organization, and not something of personal preference.

 

[NontradCA]

Since humanity can't seem to agree whether religion is real or fake, and if it is real, which version of it is the most authentic, maybe it's best to leave each person to decide on his/her own which path to follow, once they've gained the ability to think and analyze things for themselves.

Religion is real, that is undeniable. If a higher power exists, is up for debate.