Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[Arkangeloid]

You may be wondering what role religion plays in my life, if I don't buy into any of its dogma. Well, it proves a source of culture, morality, philosophy, meaning, and confidence in a world that seems devoid of it. That's just my take on it. Others may disagree, and that's why they choose to be atheists.

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[DermViser]

You may be wondering what role religion plays in my life, if I don't buy into any of its dogma. Well, it proves a source of culture, morality, philosophy, meaning, and confidence in a world that seems devoid of it. That's just my take on it. Others may disagree, and that's why they choose to be atheists.

I believe it brings more good and bad into the world. Humanity, compassion, empathy, are things the world needs more of, not less.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

We would be better off without blind faith.

Could you define what you mean by blind faith?

Where there is empirical evidence to base belief from, yes. I don't think you should have a strongly-formed belief that you are tied to if there isn't reason to back it up.

So your answer is that we should have no beliefs where there is no empirical evidence? "reason" is different form empirical evidence, please clarify.

 

[pilotjoe]

My last comment on this thread and I'm out.
I guess my use blind faith is redundant. Believing without reason/empirical evidence/experience.

I do not think one should be very possessive of a belief to the point where they say "nothing will change my mind." I do not think that one should base their life on principals/stories/adages/etc. without having said reason to do so based on empirical evidence/experience to do so. A good point I want to raise is that the vast majority of people practice the same faith as their parents. If you were born in Iran, you would most likely be Muslim. If you were born in Israel, you would most likely be Jewish.

There are definite times when we won't have previous experience or evidence to know how to approach a situation/problem/ethical situation/etc. This is where we have to draw on related experiences and make our best judgement to approach said situation. But I do not think it is wise to hold a strong belief unless you have a reason (empirical evidence/experience) to back it up. I hope this makes sense and answers what you were asking. But I have packing myself to do to move into my new place. Pleasure to discuss this with you, see you around on the forums.

 

[AnonymousMed]

You're strawmanning me. I never said anything about faith healing or any such quackery.

I have a deep faith in a higher power, but I do not think it is incompatible with the medical science I am learning.

What I was saying is that it's just as dogmatic to say "The Earth was made in 6 days" as it is to say "MAOIs are the best antidepressants out there." In both cases, various societies thought they were true. And now we don't.

Okay, I admit that was a slightly strawman-ish refute...But not completely. Do you really believe that it takes just as much faith to believe in modern medicine as it does a higher power? One Mirriam-Webster definition of 'faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". The definition of proof is "something that induces certainty or establishes validity"

So faith is essentially holding a firm belief in something for which there is nothing to suggest its certainty or validity. I would argue that scientific research and reproducible, efficacious results in the field of medicine induce certainty that we can rely on modern medical practices to produce statistically better results in patient healthcare, as opposed to ignoring modern medical practices. I cannot conceive of a similar statement based on empirical evidence to claim the existence of a higher power.

Honestly, this is nothing personal and I have no issues with you or your beliefs...I am only confused by the highlighted statement. If you would care to elaborate on how/why you believe it requires as much faith to believe in modern medicine as to believe in a higher power, I'm all ears.

 

[AnonymousMed]

My last comment on this thread and I'm out.
I guess my use blind faith is redundant. Believing without reason/empirical evidence/experience.

I do not think one should be very possessive of a belief to the point where they say "nothing will change my mind." I do not think that one should base their life on principals/stories/adages/etc. without having said reason to do so based on empirical evidence/experience to do so. A good point I want to raise is that the vast majority of people practice the same faith as their parents. If you were born in Iran, you would most likely be Muslim. If you were born in Israel, you would most likely be Jewish.

There are definite times when we won't have previous experience or evidence to know how to approach a situation/problem/ethical situation/etc. This is where we have to draw on related experiences and make our best judgement to approach said situation. But I do not think it is wise to hold a strong belief unless you have a reason (empirical evidence/experience) to back it up. I hope this makes sense and answers what you were asking. But I have packing myself to do to move into my new place. Pleasure to discuss this with you, see you around on the forums.

Thanks for your insight on this thread @pilotjoe, really good stuff. Good luck with the move!

 

[Arkangeloid]

Okay, I admit that was a slightly strawman-ish refute...But not completely. Do you really believe that it takes just as much faith to believe in modern medicine as it does a higher power? One Mirriam-Webster definition of 'faith is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". The definition of proof is "something that induces certainty or establishes validity"

So faith is essentially holding a firm belief in something for which there is nothing to suggest its certainty or validity. I would argue that scientific research and reproducible, efficacious results in the field of medicine induce certainty that we can rely on modern medical practices to produce statistically better results in patient healthcare, as opposed to ignoring modern medical practices. I cannot conceive of a similar statement based on empirical evidence to claim the existence of a higher power.

Honestly, this is nothing personal and I have no issues with you or your beliefs...I am only confused by the highlighted statement. If you would care to elaborate on how/why you believe it requires as much faith to believe in modern medicine as to believe in a higher power, I'm all ears.

Well, that depends on what you define as "believe in modern medicine." If you think that modern medicine tells us things that are true or "facts" (except for very basic science or anatomy or whatever), then yes, I would say that requires some large leaps of faith. If you think what you said you think, then I don't think that requires much faith at all.

Perhaps I poorly phrased the statement that was bolded, or didn't think it through well enough. I just wanted to point out that it's easy to target people who buy into religious dogma (especially when they are some of our patients), but it's worth critiquing our medical science as well on the same grounds. Just as many people blindly buy into religion, so do others blindly worship science.

 

[jared_the_great]

I'm an atheist now, but grew in a very fundamentalist Christian environment. Here's my perspective on how ultra-religious folk probably tend to feel about their doctor's beliefs.

I think most ultra-religious do not assume that other people think like they do. Especially in science, medicine, academia, etc. Quite the contrary. They tend not to know or care that 75% of Americans call themselves Christians. Most aren't "true Christians" anyway. Instead, the true Christians are an embattled minority, fighting the good fight against a society that is largely against them.

That being the case, I think hardly anyone would be terribly surprised to find our their doctor is not a Christian, or even not religious at all. They knew that was likely when they chose to go to a secular medical facility. Instead, they would be surprised (and overjoyed, surely) to find out he/she *was* a devout Christian. However, I think it's a different story for the word "atheist." I think for most of the intensely devout, non-Christians may just not have the discipline and commitment to be a "true Christian," while atheists must necessarily be smug and antagonistic (and spawn of Satan, obviously).

So I tend to not label myself "atheist" when I can help it, just because I don't like being stereotyped. If someone asks about my beliefs I'm more likely to say something like "I used to be very religious, but I'm not anymore." And if they want to know more, I'm happy to discuss how and why I left religion.

I do sometimes wonder, though, if the only way for the stigmatism about atheism to go away is for people to stop being shy about it. In order to accept that it's possible to be an atheist and a decent human being at the same time, people probably need to realize that they already know plenty of atheists who don't eat babies or worship Satan.

 

[2Pints]

I'm finding this thread really interesting and have read through a good amount of the comments but not all...yet.
To the OP- as somebody who grew up atheist and started believing in God a few years ago I have a slightly different perspective from the reverse. I echo other commenters that patient care is not a platform to share your non-belief. Just as it is not a platform to convert people to a faith. If you want to comfort them then ask how they feel God is helping them through this time. If they ask you to pray then offer to share your hopes. Instead of praying to a God you don't believe in just say "I hope Mary is comforted by her family and her pain is relieved yada yada". I don't think you are doing wrong by directing that to God or saying amen but why should you compromise your beliefs?
As for the religious radicals or even people who misconstrue certain parts of the Bible to be scientific fact, ugh. That's a completely separate post. People shouldn't check their brain at the church door is all I will say.

 

[tdram]

I do sometimes wonder, though, if the only way for the stigmatism about atheism to go away is for people to stop being shy about it. In order to accept that it's possible to be an atheist and a decent human being at the same time, people probably need to realize that they already know plenty of atheists who don't eat babies or worship Satan.

Yeah, I think this is key. There are a lot of atheists out there that are "in the closet", so to speak. It's very likely that a lot of people who have misguided views about atheists likely have a close friend or relative who is an atheist but they just don't know it. Now I know some people who have "come out" (sorry to hijack the LGBT terminology, but it works) to their families about being atheist and found out that their friends and family disowned and ostracized them. Unfortunately this is something that does happen. I think close family members usually come around. Many of my family members didn't want to see or talk to me after they found out I left the religion, and they said quite a few terrible things about me. Over time it has slowly improved though. If people want to hate me because I don't believe in their god, then maybe I don't want them around either.

 

[jared_the_great]

Now I know some people who have "come out" (sorry to hijack the LGBT terminology, but it works) to their families about being atheist and found out that their friends and family disowned and ostracized them. Unfortunately this is something that does happen. I think close family members usually come around. Many of my family members didn't want to see or talk to me after they found out I left the religion, and they said quite a few terrible things about me. Over time it has slowly improved though. If people want to hate me because I don't believe in their god, then maybe I don't want them around either.

I experienced quite a bit of backlash from friends and family when they found out I was merely doubting the religion (atheism was still a ways off). Not very many cut off contact entirely, but I did have quite a few close friends and family members say some extremely hurtful things, and make it clear that they no longer trusted or respected me. It's been quite a few years now, and none of them have ever taken back any of the things they said. But we tend to no longer talk about it, and they generally treat me with a superficial politeness at get-togethers.

It was a pretty hurtful, lonely & traumatic experience. But I feel like I went through the worst of it and am on the other side now. I no longer fear personal rejection because it can't possibly get any worse than what I've already experienced.

Now it's mainly professional backlash I fear. But even there, I'm only "closeted" in the sense that I try not to draw attention to my lack of belief. I wouldn't lie about it or pretend to be something I'm not.

 

[tdram]

I experienced quite a bit of backlash from friends and family when they found out I was merely doubting the religion (atheism was still a ways off). Not very many cut off contact entirely, but I did have quite a few close friends and family members say some extremely hurtful things, and make it clear that they no longer trusted or respected me. It's been quite a few years now, and none of them have ever taken back any of the things they said. But we tend to no longer talk about it, and they generally treat me with a superficial politeness at get-togethers.

It was a pretty hurtful, lonely & traumatic experience. But I feel like I went through the worst of it and am on the other side now. I no longer fear personal rejection because it can't possibly get any worse than what I've already experienced.

Now it's mainly professional backlash I fear. But even there, I'm only "closeted" in the sense that I try not to draw attention to my lack of belief. I wouldn't lie about it or pretend to be something I'm not.

I'm really sorry this had to happen to you, I know exactly how you feel because I went through a very similar experience. It was exactly like you said, traumatic, lonely and hurtful. It's really sad that a person can become so absorbed by their religion that they will cut ties with a loved one because of mere doubt about the religion. When it gets to the stage where you'll disown your own child because they aren't sure they want to keep going to church or believing in your god, there is something very wrong. Those people need counseling/treatment.

The experience I had really showed me the dark side of religion, and how it can control people's minds to the point that it dictates all of your relationships.

 

[2Pints]

I'm really sorry this had to happen to you, I know exactly how you feel because I went through a very similar experience. It was exactly like you said, traumatic, lonely and hurtful. It's really sad that a person can become so absorbed by their religion that they will cut ties with a loved one because of mere doubt about the religion. When it gets to the stage where you'll disown your own child because they aren't sure they want to keep going to church or believing in your god, there is something very wrong. Those people need counseling/treatment.

That really makes me sick to hear. Not surprised. The religious people I grew up around were some of the most judgmental. Which is ridiculous because Jesus was very rebellious of "religious" practice. Also why I'm careful to say my faith is important to me instead of I'm religious.

I second @tdram's comment that those people need counseling. That's coming from a place of insecurity and their own hurt.

Just like all atheists are not the spawn of Satan (and I would say most are not) not all people who believe in God are hypocritical, judge mental, and pious (and I would say sadly most are).

 

[tdram]

That really makes me sick to hear. Not surprised. The religious people I grew up around were some of the most judgmental. Which is ridiculous because Jesus was very rebellious of "religious" practice. Also why I'm careful to say my faith is important to me instead of I'm religious.

I second @tdram's comment that those people need counseling. That's coming from a place of insecurity and their own hurt.

Just like all atheists are not the spawn of Satan (and I would say most are not) not all people who believe in God are hypocritical, judge mental, and pious (and I would say sadly most are).

I think one of the problems is that a lot of these beliefs get pushed on you at such a young age before you really know enough about the world to think about them and decide for yourself, then they become pretty much reflexive. I had it repeatedly hammered into my head that the only good people were those who followed the path of god, and that questioning faith was a sign of evil. That kind of mindset is dangerous, and especially dangerous to teach a child who knows no better and will carry that through the rest of his/her life. It's really hard to undo things like that from your childhood.

 

[alpinism]

Atheism and science cannot provide all of the answers we desire though. Many of our laws are completely arbitrary and founded based on a "belief" in what is right. We have chosen to believe that slavery is wrong, that all men and women are created equal, that murder is wrong, etc. These are not provable absolutes- no science will tell you that, objectively, murder is wrong. Religion, at its core, is about philosophy, regardless of what gods provide the veneer for that philosophy. Philosophy is about answering the questions that science cannot, about finding meaning in an otherwise meaningless existence, and about how we should relate to our fellow men and women in a world in which natural laws cannot provide us with such guidance. Religion is not better than atheism, but there is certainly a place for it, even in this day and age.

Philosophy is by definition the study of truth (greek for love of wisdom) to include knowledge, logic, and ethics. Inherent to philosophy is its reliance upon a systematic and rational approach to studying a subject and the use of hypotheses and theories. At its core philosophy exists to question values and beliefs instead of relying upon faith.

The vast majority of religions and religious people do not practice religion to question their beliefs, rather to strengthen their faith. Most people don't study religion, they practice religion by living according to a set of beliefs and values. You don't go to a church or mosque to question the existence of god or the meaning of life, you go there to be given a set of beliefs.

That is the essence of religion, its ability to provide hope and comfort based upon faith.

Philosophy does the opposite, it provides doubt.

But, as you said earlier, you can't truly know love without hate, joy without sorrow, or hope without doubt.

 

[LivingEdge]

Personally I am bothered by this idea - not because I have the slightest qualm with you being an agnostic or atheist or Flying Spaghetti Monster disciple or what have you, but because this isn't a church, it's medical school.

My single biggest gripe about my undergraduate years was that I was going to school to learn chemistry and I couldn't even set foot on campus without people having silly little holy wars about stuff I don't care about.

When I come to campus, the last thing I want to be bothered with are somebody's militant views about something that is not related to medicine.

Furthermore you will find that starting such clubs will have a subtle but profound divisive impact on your campus - whereas before we were all just students, by creating your club you will draw a line in the sand separating "atheists" from "non-atheists" or something similar.

Please - if you must express yourself, save it for your local coffee shop or failing that your favorite subreddit.

Nobody cares, or at least on campus they shouldn't.

 

[tdram]

Personally I am bothered by this idea - not because I have the slightest qualm with you being an agnostic or atheist or Flying Spaghetti Monster disciple or what have you, but because this isn't a church, it's medical school.

My single biggest gripe about my undergraduate years was that I was going to school to learn chemistry and I couldn't even set foot on campus without people having silly little holy wars about stuff I don't care about.

When I come to campus, the last thing I want to be bothered with are somebody's militant views about something that is not related to medicine.

Furthermore you will find that starting such clubs will have a subtle but profound divisive impact on your campus - whereas before we were all just students, by creating your club you will draw a line in the sand separating "atheists" from "non-atheists" or something similar.

Please - if you must express yourself, save it for your local coffee shop or failing that your favorite subreddit.

Nobody cares, or at least on campus they shouldn't.

But they already have clubs for all the major religions. How is a club for atheists going to cause any more division than already exists?

 

[Nasrudin]

But they already have clubs for all the major religions. How is a club for atheists going to cause any more division than already exists?

That's one of the cognitive biases of the liberal non adhering religious class. They want their blankie of mythology to snuggle up with, without being held accountable for the consequences of ideology.

It's the great mistake of the liberal western mind to imagine fundamentalists of all sorts don't actually believe what their clerics and books tell them to. When in fact the evidence is quite obvious that people do believe in apocalyptic scenarios that save their particular tribal affiliation. And they act accordingly. Ideologies have consequences.

Western liberal religious people are just obstacles for those of us who would like to see actual apocalyptic realities be prevented from unfolding.

 

[LivingEdge]

But they already have clubs for all the major religions. How is a club for atheists going to cause any more division than already exists?

I agree, those should be disbanded too. If it isn't appropriate for a workplace I don't want to see it on campus.

 

[tdram]

I agree, those should be disbanded too. If it isn't appropriate for a workplace I don't want to see it on campus.

You make a valid point. What about political organizations? Should we disband those as well?

 

[touchpause13]

I agree, those should be disbanded too. If it isn't appropriate for a workplace I don't want to see it on campus.

That's stupid imo. It's just a way for people with similar interests to socialize/ get involved with stuff they are interested in. What about med students for choice or a GSA? Are those also inappropriate?

 

[tdram]

That's stupid imo. It's just a way for people with similar interests to socialize/ get involved with stuff they are interested in. What about med students for choice or a GSA? Are those also inappropriate?

I think @LivingEdge's argument is that those activities should be done outside of the campus grounds, independently from the school.

 

[LivingEdge]

I think @LivingEdge's argument is that those activities should be done outside of the campus grounds, independently from the school.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

I don't pay ~$60,000 a year so that I can deal with somebody setting up the IRL version of their favorite internet forum on my campus.

I should start a furry porn appreciation club and plaster the whole campus with fliers to highlight how stupid and arrogant "clubs" are to try to compete for our attention.

You thought you were here to study medicine? You thought wrong! *BugsBunnyPorn.jpg*

@tdram - yes, disband politics clubs too. My only tolerance would be issues advocacy for things related to medicine (i.e. abortion stances, things related to physician assisted suicide etc).

 

[DermViser]

That's stupid imo. It's just a way for people with similar interests to socialize/ get involved with stuff they are interested in. What about med students for choice or a GSA? Are those also inappropriate?

Yes.

 

[PL198]

Lol atheists are always so full of themselves. Seriously I don't know of any group that thinks itself more superior to it's counterparts than atheists. People can believe whatever they want. Stop judging them for doing it, you aren't automatically superior to them. Religion is essentially how morals are created whether you like it or not, so it's certainly had its effect. Atheists really piss me of though because on average, they're the person that will look down on everyone else for their beliefs. Never understood that. If you're right and they're wrong, then shouldn't that truth be enough for you in the end? Why do you have to attempt to slam it into people's faces at every opportunity about how silly their beliefs sound in your opinion? I bet you have a lot of ideas or beliefs that others would call irrational.

I'm agnostic, just because I don't see a point in wondering about a God or an afterlife. My views are that if either exist and I would change my behavior because of this, it would be a failure on my part. I would think that would be god-fearing.

 

[AnonymousMed]

Lol atheists are always so full of themselves. Seriously I don't know of any group that thinks itself more superior to it's counterparts than atheists. People can believe whatever they want. Stop judging them for doing it, you aren't automatically superior to them. Religion is essentially how morals are created whether you like it or not, so it's certainly had its effect. Atheists really piss me of though because on average, they're the person that will look down on everyone else for their beliefs. Never understood that. If you're right and they're wrong, then shouldn't that truth be enough for you in the end? Why do you have to attempt to slam it into people's faces at every opportunity about how silly their beliefs sound in your opinion? I bet you have a lot of ideas or beliefs that others would call irrational.

I'm agnostic, just because I don't see a point in wondering about a God or an afterlife. My views are that if either exist and I would change my behavior because of this, it would be a failure on my part. I would think that would be god-fearing.

Did you even read the original post? Exactly whose face was I "slamming" my thoughts into? If you bothered reading through the thread (which I assume you didn't), you would realize that there are real-life circumstances in which medicine and religion (or lack thereof) intersect. Now obviously this is not an urgent matter in the field of medicine, but it's one worth talking about...and where better to talk about it than an online internet forum or by meeting with fellow med students who would also like to discuss it? This type of mentality that you're displaying towards atheists is a huge reason why this needs discussing in the first place. You're overgeneralizing and placing all atheists into a single, negative group. There are many people that, if they found out their doctor was an atheist, would be horrified...because they, like you, misjudge all atheists to be the same.

 

[jared_the_great]

Lol atheists are always so full of themselves. Seriously I don't know of any group that thinks itself more superior to it's counterparts than atheists. People can believe whatever they want. Stop judging them for doing it, you aren't automatically superior to them. Religion is essentially how morals are created whether you like it or not, so it's certainly had its effect. Atheists really piss me of though because on average, they're the person that will look down on everyone else for their beliefs. Never understood that. If you're right and they're wrong, then shouldn't that truth be enough for you in the end? Why do you have to attempt to slam it into people's faces at every opportunity about how silly their beliefs sound in your opinion? I bet you have a lot of ideas or beliefs that others would call irrational.

I'm agnostic, just because I don't see a point in wondering about a God or an afterlife. My views are that if either exist and I would change my behavior because of this, it would be a failure on my part. I would think that would be god-fearing.

I know right? Atheists always go around making unfair generalizations about others and judging them!


EDIT: I'm still not entirely sure whether you were trying to be intentionally ironic or not. Poe's Law and all that.

 

[tdram]

Lol atheists are always so full of themselves. Seriously I don't know of any group that thinks itself more superior to it's counterparts than atheists. People can believe whatever they want. Stop judging them for doing it, you aren't automatically superior to them. Religion is essentially how morals are created whether you like it or not, so it's certainly had its effect. Atheists really piss me of though because on average, they're the person that will look down on everyone else for their beliefs. Never understood that. If you're right and they're wrong, then shouldn't that truth be enough for you in the end? Why do you have to attempt to slam it into people's faces at every opportunity about how silly their beliefs sound in your opinion? I bet you have a lot of ideas or beliefs that others would call irrational.

I'm agnostic, just because I don't see a point in wondering about a God or an afterlife. My views are that if either exist and I would change my behavior because of this, it would be a failure on my part. I would think that would be god-fearing.

I don't know about you, but my experience has been that religious people are just as guilty of this. They often think they're superior to anybody that doesn't believe in their religion. Most of the religious people I know find a way to bring God into every discussion even though they know I'm not a believer. One of my relatives always make it a point to start a discussion about how silly he thinks evolution is and how idiotic you'd have to be to believe it.

My point is, judging people is a human personality trait that some people have, which has nothing to do with whether they are religious or not. A lot of people have a need to feel superior, and they'll use whatever they can to do it, whether that's their ethnicity, religion, education, income, family background, whatever. It's unfair of you to pin this behavior only on atheists when it's pretty widespread in society.

 

[Arkangeloid]

All the atheists I know IRL are kind, friendly, and good people.

That said, most of the rabid antitheists I see on reddit annoy me to no end.

I think that reddit provides an echo chamber for them.

 

[Nasrudin]

I am unashamedly judgmental. Because it's the difference between being a sucker, being had, being an idiot. And not.

We didn't make it out of the trees and across the ancient Savanna by not using our judgment.

As long as people are stock piling weapons in bunkers and flying planes into buildings or whipping little girls on their way to school, get used to judgment. Or make the company of cowards.

 

[PL198]

I don't know about you, but my experience has been that religious people are just as guilty of this. They often think they're superior to anybody that doesn't believe in their religion. Most of the religious people I know find a way to bring God into every discussion even though they know I'm not a believer. One of my relatives always make it a point to start a discussion about how silly he thinks evolution is and how idiotic you'd have to be to believe it.

My point is, judging people is a human personality trait that some people have, which has nothing to do with whether they are religious or not. A lot of people have a need to feel superior, and they'll use whatever they can to do it, whether that's their ethnicity, religion, education, income, family background, whatever. It's unfair of you to pin this behavior only on atheists when it's pretty widespread in society.

I feel like you're talking about people that aren't very devout(who in my experience tend to be 100x in your face about their faith vs people that are devout). I never pinned it only on atheists. I just said in my experience, the group that has a superiority complex the most, is atheists.

 

[tdram]

I feel like you're talking about people that aren't very devout(who in my experience tend to be 100x in your face about their faith vs people that are devout). I never pinned it only on atheists. I just said in my experience, the group that has a superiority complex the most, is atheists.

I don't know, probably depends on where you are. Down where I grew up, there are actually billboards publicly mocking atheists. I think that shows a pretty big superiority complex.

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Doesn't the fact that everyone is willing to argue about religion mean that god is truly dead? Holy wars of ancient times concerned which god was the right one, not whether a god existed at all. Nietzsche summed up this sentiment the best in The Gay Science:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

 

[DermViser]

Doesn't the fact that everyone is willing to argue about religion mean that god is truly dead? Holy wars of ancient times concerned which god was the right one, not whether a god existed at all. Nietzsche summed up this sentiment the best in The Gay Science:

It's ok. God still cares for you, CheGuevara.

 

[touchpause13]

It's ok. God still cares for you, CheGuevara.

Dude.
Stop.

Sooooo douchey

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

It's ok. God still cares for you, CheGuevara.

Do you understand what am saying? If god were truly real, we wouldn't have to debate it. It would just be true.

 

[DermViser]

Dude.
Stop.

Sooooo douchey

What? How is it douchey? God (if you believe in God) cares for everyone.

 

[touchpause13]

What? How is it douchey? God (if you believe in God) cares for everyone.

But i don't. Just saying that God cares for you to a non believer is condensing and a douche move come on nlw.

 

[DermViser]

Do you understand what am saying? If god were truly real, we wouldn't have to debate it. It would just be true.

As a mortal who lives on Earth, I can't prove to you that God who lives in the supernatural exists. There is no science experiment I can do to "prove" it to you.

 

[DermViser]

But i don't. Just saying that God cares for you to a non believer is condensing and a douche move come on nlw.

Che Guevara didn't say he's a non-believer.

 

[DermViser]

But i don't. Just saying that God cares for you to a non believer is condensing and a douche move come on nlw.

You must mean condescending, vs. this:

 

[touchpause13]

You must mean condescending, vs. this:

Shut up I'm drubk

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

As a mortal who lives on Earth, I can't prove to you that God who lives in the supernatural exists. There is no science experiment I can do to "prove" it to you.

Okay, so what's the point of this debate? Seems fairly meaningless. Sort of like me trying to convince you that chocolate tastes better than vanilla. You BELIEVE it, but how can you transfer that belief to me?

 

[DermViser]

Okay, so what's the point of this debate? Seems fairly meaningless. Sort of like me trying to convince you that chocolate tastes better than vanilla. You BELIEVE it, but how can you transfer that belief to me?

I have no idea, I didn't start the debate. Use your heart

 

[PL198]

Huh? how does everyone arguing about god being real prove that its impossible for god to exist...? if you apply that concept to theoretical physics, then all the stuff they talk about is pointless.. you don't have to apparently see something for it to exist.

- coming from someone that doesnt actually care if a god exists or not

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Huh? how does everyone arguing about god being real prove that its impossible for god to exist...? if you apply that concept to theoretical physics, then all the stuff they talk about is pointless.. you don't have to apparently see something for it to exist.

- coming from someone that doesnt actually care if a god exists or not

Yes, theoretical physics is pointless.

 

[PL198]

Yes, theoretical physics is pointless.

glad we established that. what about narwhals? those are pretty pointless(lol not literally as they have horns) too. frickin unicorns mixed with whales, who the hell thought of that

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

glad we established that. what about narwhals? those are pretty pointless(lol not literally as they have horns) too. frickin unicorns mixed with whales, who the hell thought of that

You seem to mistake my point here -- the fact that we have developed the intellectual narrative to legitimately question the existence of god, means that that god is already dead. Do you think there is rampant atheism in the Middle East? Do suicide bombers choose their religion like a flavor of ice cream? NO. They come from countries that are so poorly economically and culturally developed that they truly, truly believe. We cannot ever hope to match that sort of belief.

 

[PL198]

You seem to mistake my point here -- the fact that we have developed the intellectual narrative to legitimately question the existence of god, means that that god is already dead. Do you think there is rampant atheism in the Middle East? Do suicide bombers choose their religion like a flavor of ice cream? NO. They come from countries that are so poorly economically and culturally developed that they truly, truly believe. We cannot ever hope to match that sort of belief.

So now you're saying that belief is based on being sheltered? You're just stating a bunch of conjectures to fit your argument. Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk and many times when I disagree with people in arguments I can still see where they are coming from, but I truly don't understand how somehow being intelligent enough to question your origin means that it's not possible a god is real.

 

[Nasrudin]

You seem to mistake my point here -- the fact that we have developed the intellectual narrative to legitimately question the existence of god, means that that god is already dead. Do you think there is rampant atheism in the Middle East? Do suicide bombers choose their religion like a flavor of ice cream? NO. They come from countries that are so poorly economically and culturally developed that they truly, truly believe. We cannot ever hope to match that sort of belief.

That's an interesting philosophical point. But international terrorists have largely been from educated and well-to-do families. Bin Laden and the 911 crew were Saudis from good families. It's an inconvenient truth for lovers of Noam Chomsky, Chris Hedges, democracy now, and the sociopathic and sadistic executioner that bears your namesake that social ills don't cause terrorism. Ideology does.

There's plenty of ridiculously poor societies that don't export maniacal killers.