Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[Roxas]

The pictures were mainly directed at those who were overstating the good effects of religion and downplaying or ignoring/denying the negative effects. The idea that religion is a positive force in every person's life is untrue, and that is what I was trying to point out. It can be a very negative and destructive force, by indocrinating people in youth and encouraging blind faith without questioning. In the wrong hands, this can wreak havoc. That is not to say that all religious people are evil. By no stretch of the imagination is that true.

Either way, my argument is simply an argument. My motivation is not to ban religion. My motivation is simply to state my point and provide my evidence. This is a public forum which will be read by hundreds of people, if not more. Some of the people who read it may find the information I posted useful and food for thought about their own relationship with religion.

I can largely agree with your post, but I still find the bolded a bit hypocritical. The same could be said for raising a child in a house where religion is hated. You are indoctrinating that mind with intolerance for another group who is different from you, as well as possibly denying someone a lot of potential happiness by denying them access to religion.

I realize that you may not find happiness in religion, but many people do.

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[tdram]

I can largely agree with your post, but I still find the bolded a bit hypocritical. The same could be said for raising a child in a house where religion is hated. You are indoctrinating that mind with intolerance for another group who is different from you, as well as possibly denying someone a lot of potential happiness by denying them access to religion.

I realize that you may not find happiness in religion, but many people do.

Hating religion isn't the same as not believing in one. The majority of non-believers don't hate religion and don't teach their children to hate religion. They just don't follow one. On the other hand, pretty much all believers do teach their children their religion from the day they're born.

I wouldn't teach hatred of religion to my kid, and I wouldn't have a problem if he / she decided to take one up.

 

[tdram]

to an extent...though typically the faithful are trying to debate/convince in the effort of having the person ultimately convert. Whereas what does an athiest get out of spending large amounts of time in trying to convince one to a place of disbelief? Seems like all the time put in is worth it for one group and a waste of time for the other, doesn't it? So that leads me to believe athiests either do this as a hobby or because they are not as comfortable as they think.

It's pretty hard to be comfortable as an atheist in a world where not only atheists are in the extreme minority, but also religion is in your face everywhere. This thread is a perfectly good example of that. If atheists could be open about their beliefs without judgment, there would be no need for this thread. There would be no need to discuss what to do when a patient asks you to pray with him/her, because a religious person wouldn't ask an atheist to do something he/she doesn't believe in. That would not be considered respectful behavior.

 

[Roxas]

.

 

[tdram]

I didn't grow up in an atheist family, so I admit that I wouldn't know. However, if your position is any representation of other non-believers, I don't think my assumption is far off. Any true non-believer and non-hater of religion as you imagine wouldn't have kept this thread alive as long as it has. In my experience with atheists (with some exceptions of course), a lack of belief is simply not enough. For some reason the need to tear down other's beliefs is part of the "non-belief" as well.

Edit: Nice edit. I think your actions speak louder than words however. You're going this far to convince some anonymous person on the internet, I can only imagine you would be more protective with your own child.

Yes, I'm arguing my points with adults here - adults who are capable of reasoning for themselves. This is a completely different situation than forcing a child to follow your beliefs. I'm not even going to discuss the merits and demerits of religion with a child who doesn't have the ability to understand what I'm saying. When the child is old enough, sure, but at that point the child can reason on his/her own.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

It is not a contradiction. It was a separate point.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. I've already demonstrated why it's a contradiction, as a separate point.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Yes, I'm arguing my points with adults here - adults who are capable of reasoning for themselves. This is a completely different situation than forcing a child to follow your beliefs. I'm not even going to discuss the merits and demerits of religion with a child who doesn't have the ability to understand what I'm saying. When the child is old enough, sure, but at that point the child can reason on his/her own.

Oh right, atheist don't talk to their children about their lack of belief in God?
So when a child asks why his friends go to church but "we" don't, the Atheist parent doesn't answer?
When the child asks what God is, they don't answer?
When a child asks why all those people in the middle east are fighting, you won't answer?
They defer all these answers until the child is of "reasoning" age?

Pretending that practical Atheism is merely lack of belief in God is disingenuous at best. Atheist have many beliefs and are particularly vocal in their beliefs about the religious.

 

[Kahreek]

Atheist hater^
Dont hate, comprehend

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Atheist hater^
Dont hate, comprehend

I'll try harder.

 

[tdram]

Oh right, atheist don't talk to their children about their lack of belief in God?
So when a child asks why his friends go to church but "we" don't, the Atheist parent doesn't answer?
When the child asks what God is, they don't answer?
When a child asks why all those people in the middle east are fighting, you won't answer?
They defer all these answers until the child is of "reasoning" age?

Pretending that practical Atheism is merely lack of belief in God is disingenuous at best. Atheist have many beliefs and are particularly vocal in their beliefs about the religious.

First of all, we don't answer every question a child asks at a young age. There are plenty of things we defer until the child is older - like sex, for example. How do you handle your 3-year-old asking you where babies come from?

Secondly, many of these questions apply to religious people as well. Suppose you're Christian. What are you going to tell your child when she asks you why her friends go to a mosque and worship Allah and you don't?

You're the one who argued with me that the fighting in the middle east has more to do with money, power, resources, etc than religion, so it's funny that you're using that as part of your argument here. Clearly you can answer that question without explaining God.

Explaining to a child what the concept of God is, and forcing that child to go to church and practice religion are two completely different things. If a child asks me what God is, I can simply tell the child what a deity is - a concept that some people believe is true, but I personally don't. I'll tell the child she can learn more about it and decide for herself when she gets older. It's not something that a child can grasp. That's different than what religious parents do, which is teach their children that a deity is real and must be worshipped otherwise you will be punished.

No different than a child asking me any question, like, why I don't have a tattoo but other people do. I can answer that question without putting down people who sport tattoos by simply stating that it is my preference not to have one. When the child becomes old enough to be able to get her own tattoos, she can decide what to do about it then.

 

[tdram]

I'll try harder.

Lacking a belief in a god doesn't necessarily mean you hate god or religion and want it destroyed, any more than lacking an interest in hip hop music means you hate it and want it eradicated from the earth. This is a point most religious people seem to forget.

 

[Nasrudin]

Atheist hater^
Dont hate, comprehend

This nugget of wisdom shall stand as my reply. In it contains all I would've said, but with haiku-like elegance.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

First of all, we don't answer every question a child asks at a young age. There are plenty of things we defer until the child is older - like sex, for example. How do you handle your 3-year-old asking you where babies come from?

A conversation about sexual intercourse and a conversation about world views are in no way comparable.

Secondly, many of these questions apply to religious people as well. Suppose you're Christian. What are you going to tell your child when she asks you why her friends go to a mosque and worship Allah and you don't?

I have no problem explaining that different people have different beliefs. I'm not sure what your point is.

You're the one who argued with me that the fighting in the middle east has more to do with money, power, resources, etc than religion, so it's funny that you're using that as part of your argument here. Clearly you can answer that question without explaining God.

No, try reading my response again. I said "tell me these (list) have nothing to do with it". Because you were fallaciously trying to boil down war into some singular motivation and cause, in other words, you clearly can't explain that question without explaining God.

Explaining to a child what the concept of God is, and forcing that child to go to church and practice religion are two completely different things. If a child asks me what God is, I can simply tell the child what a deity is - a concept that some people believe is true, but I personally don't. I'll tell the child she can learn more about it and decide for herself when she gets older. It's not something that a child can grasp. That's different than what religious parents do, which is teach their children that a deity is real and must be worshipped otherwise you will be punished.

No different than a child asking me any question, like, why I don't have a tattoo but other people do. I can answer that question without putting down people who sport tattoos by simply stating that it is my preference not to have one. When the child becomes old enough to be able to get her own tattoos, she can decide what to do about it then.

It's as if you've never been around a child, or at least think we never have if you think those questions will end with one response and not be followed up with at least 5 more. But, since I can't really prove your insincerity, I'll leave this point.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Lacking a belief in a god doesn't necessarily mean you hate god or religion and want it destroyed, any more than lacking an interest in hip hop music means you hate it and want it eradicated from the earth. This is a point most religious people seem to forget.

Weak straw man.

 

[tdram]

It's as if you've never been around a child, or at least think we never have if you think those questions will end with one response and not be followed up with at least 5 more. But, since I can't really prove your insincerity, I'll leave this point.

You know, you don't have to say anything to a child you don't want to right? If you don't want to answer, you don't have to. I don't imagine children these days having dying questions about god and religions at 3 or 4 years old. Their more likely question is why their friend has (insert toy or gadget here) and they don't.

 

[tdram]

Weak straw man.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point? Sad.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point? Sad.

No, that was to point out a particularly non-sensical and weak post by you.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You know, you don't have to say anything to a child you don't want to right? If you don't want to answer, you don't have to. I don't imagine children these days having dying questions about god and religions at 3 or 4 years old. Their more likely question is why their friend has (insert toy or gadget here) and they don't.

No one is debating what you do or do not have to do, the debate is over what is actually done. Your contention is that only religious parents indoctrinate their kids with their world views. As if atheist have no world views and do not indoctrinate their children. You're being insincere, at best.

 

[tdram]

No one is debating what you do or do not have to do, the debate is over what is actually done. Your contention is that only religious parents indoctrinate their kids with their world views. As if atheist have no world views and do not indoctrinate their children. You're being insincere, at best.

You can't indoctrinate someone with a lack of belief in something. That's absurd. Once again, athiest does not mean anti-theist.

 

[tdram]

No, that was to point out a particularly non-sensical and weak post by you.

Well you failed because it's not a straw man. It's a perfectly valid analogy.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You can't indoctrinate someone with a lack of belief in something. That's absurd.

Again, pretending that atheist don't have a world view because they don't believe in God is incredibly disingenuous and just false.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Well you failed because it's not a straw man. It's a perfectly valid analogy.

I didn't say you made a false analogy. I said you presented a straw man. I can't educate you on logical fallacies, wikipedia is your friend.

 

[tdram]

Again, pretending that atheist don't have a world view because they don't believe in God is incredibly disingenuous and just false.

The atheist world view does not include a God. Everyone has a world view, obviously. Having a world view lacking a God does not equate to hating a god. Why can't you see that? Does having a Christian worldview = hating the muslim worldview?

 

[tdram]

I didn't say you made a false analogy. I said you presented a straw man. I can't educate you on logical fallacies, wikipedia is your friend.

I'm not going to waste more time with you, because you just argue for the sake of arguing. Your arguments involve making claims about atheists that you have no information to back up. On the other hand, I actually am an atheist and I also grew up in a very religious family and community, so I know a bit more about the non-religious life than you do, and I know about the religious life as well.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The atheist world view does not include a God. Everyone has a world view, obviously. Having a world view lacking a God does not equate to hating a god. Why can't you see that? Does having a Christian worldview = hating the muslim worldview?

You see the bold. That's a straw man. Why? Because I never claimed the bolded. "Why can't you see that" ? Then you made an analogy to burn the straw man, thereby completed the straw man fallacy, yet again.

Look this isn't hard, try to follow:
My claim:
As if atheist have no world views and do not indoctrinate their children.

Your counter:
You can't indoctrinate someone with a lack of belief in something. That's absurd. (It would be absurd, but that's not what I claimed is it? Or are you claiming that atheist don't have world views?)

My counter:
Again, pretending that atheists don't have world views because they don't believe in God is incredibly disingenuous and false.

Your counter:
Everyone has a world view, obviously. Having a world view lacking a God does not equate to hating a god. (Who claimed that a world view lacking God = hating god? No one, you build straw men like it's your job).

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm not going to waste more time with you, because you just argue for the sake of arguing. Your arguments involve making claims about atheists that you have no information to back up. On the other hand, I actually am an atheist and I also grew up in a very religious family and community, so I know a bit more about the non-religious life than you do, and I know about the religious life as well.

Nice appeal to authority.
I grew up an atheist and later converted. Who wins this ****ty appeal to authority now?
My purpose in engaging you is to point out your poor reasoning and even poorer arguments.
This is at least the second time that you've declared you would no longer engage me.
It appears it actually might be you that enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[touchpause13]

omg...

Shut the feck up. Both of yall. No one is convincing anyone to become religious or not religious. Everyone has their own life experiences and journey. Being religious or not are both completely valid.

This is just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's dumb.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

omg...

Shut the feck up. Both of yall. No one is convincing anyone to become religious or not religious. Everyone has their own life experiences and journey. Being religious or not are both completely valid.

This is just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's dumb.

Weren't you objecting to my post earlier because it was "offensive"?
You clearly don't give a **** about being offensive, so why don't you cut the ****?

Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone to become religious.

If you can't handle your emotions, stop reading the thread.

 

[touchpause13]

Weren't you objecting to my post earlier because it was "offensive"?
You clearly don't give a **** about being offensive, so why don't you cut the ****?

Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone to become religious. If you can't handle your emotions, stop reading the thread.

How is my statement offensive? I didn't stereotype anyone. I just don't think y'alls argument is going anywhere. Would you seriously disagree with that?

And I'm not emotional right now, but thanks for that dig lol

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

How is my statement offensive? I didn't stereotype anyone. I just don't think y'all argument is going anywhere. Would you seriously disagree with that?

And I'm not emotional right now, but thanks for that dig lol

"Oh my God. Shut the **** up"
Yeah, that's not the least bit offensive or "abrasive" (your word, not mine).

 

[touchpause13]

"Oh my God. Shut the **** up"
Yeah, that's not the least bit offensive or "abrasive" (your word, not mine).

Yeah I can be abrasive. This is just how I talk dude its not meant to be disrespectful. Ask anyone who knows me lol.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Yeah I can be abrasive. This is just how I talk dude its not meant to be disrespectful. Ask anyone who knows me lol.

Either way, you're not the forum police. If you don't like debates of this nature, you don't have to read them. You consistently express your disapproval of these conversation even happening. Why don't you just move on? The only thing less productive than arguing the two sides of this debate is to have someone yelling "stop" from the sidelines. Clearly, people want to have the discussion.

 

[touchpause13]

Either way, you're not the forum police. If you don't like debates of this nature, you don't have to read them. You consistently express your disapproval of these conversation even happening. Why don't you just move on? The only thing less productive than arguing the two sides of this debate is to have someone yelling "stop" from the sidelines. Clearly, people want to have the discussion, you're in the minority of the posters on this particular thread.

This is like my fourth comment on this thread. It's not like I've been constantly in here "policing" people. I just decide to pop in now and then to throw my opinion out there. Seeing as the actual forum po-po haven't kicked me out, I can still do that.

 

[tdram]

Either way, you're not the forum police. If you don't like debates of this nature, you don't have to read them. You consistently express your disapproval of these conversation even happening. Why don't you just move on? The only thing less productive than arguing the two sides of this debate is to have someone yelling "stop" from the sidelines. Clearly, people want to have the discussion.

More like you want to have the discussion so you can nonsensically pick apart everyone's argument to sound smarter...

 

[tdram]

This is like my fourth comment on this thread. It's not like I've been constantly in here "policing" people. I just decide to pop in now and then to throw my opinion out there. Seeing as the actual forum po-po haven't kicked me out, I can still do that.

Dude, don't waste your time - this dude just wants to rile people up by making nonsense arguments that have no actual substance.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

More like you want to have the discussion so you can nonsensically pick apart everyone's argument to sound smarter...

No, I pick apart arguments to figure out if they are strong or persuasive.

 

[tdram]

No, I pick apart arguments to figure out if they are strong or persuasive.

Except that you totally twist the meaning of the argument in doing so.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Dude, don't waste your time - this dude just wants to rile people up by making nonsense arguments that have no actual substance.

Again, getting "pissed off" or "riled" up is your problem. If you can't handle internet debates, don't have them.

 

[touchpause13]

Again, getting "pissed off" or "riled" up is your problem. If you can't handle internet debates, don't have them.

I don't think anyone here is riled or pissed off. Nice try tho

 

[tdram]

Again, getting "pissed off" or "riled" up is your problem. If you can't handle internet debates, don't have them.

I can handle internet debates fine when I'm debating with people who are actually capable of understanding my points, which turns out to be everyone except you right now. You just call everything you don't understand weak. It's your comprehension that's weak.

 

[tdram]

I don't think anyone here is riled or pissed off. Nice try tho

Exactly, I'm not riled up at all. This dude tried so hard though... I feel bad.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I can handle internet debates fine when I'm debating with people who are actually capable of understanding my points, which turns out to be everyone except you right now. You just call everything you don't understand weak. It's your comprehension that's weak.

Strong.

 

[tdram]

Strong.

Great comeback bro. All right, time to end this circus. Peace.

 

[touchpause13]

Great comeback bro. All right, time to end this circus. Peace.

Internet-knucks.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm not gonna get riled up.

Ok, you are really just trying to piss me off right now.

Dude, don't waste your time - this dude just wants to rile people up by making nonsense arguments that have no actual substance.

A consistent theme of this thread has been you trying to control your emotions, which you somehow contribute to my doing or motives. Again, if you're having emotional problems with someone who takes issue with your poor arguments, that's your problem. Improve and move on.

 

[EMDO2018]

Why is this thread still going? Should have been locked days ago.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This is like my fourth comment on this thread. It's not like I've been constantly in here "policing" people. I just decide to pop in now and then to throw my opinion out there. Seeing as the actual forum po-po haven't kicked me out, I can still do that.

Did you really take my statement to only be speaking of this one thread?

From the last thread on religion that I engaged you:

I'm sorry why are we even arguing about this? No one is going to convince anyone to change their deeply held religious beliefs or non beliefs, it doesn't work that easily.

People have different ideas about god. Can't we just let it freakin go?

My question isn't about what your allowed to do, it's about your motives. Why tell people to stop having the discussion? What's it to you?

 

[touchpause13]

Did you really take my statement to only be speaking of this one thread?

From the last thread on religion that I engaged you:



My question is about what your allowed to do, it's about your motives. Why tell people to stop having the discussion? What's it to you?

wow. I'm impressed by your stalk skills. Pretty sure I've amassed at least a thousand posts since then.

I just don't like to see arguments that go no where. Personal pet peeve I suppose.

 

[tdram]

A consistent theme of this thread has been you trying to control your emotions, which you somehow contribute to my doing or motives. Again, if you're having emotional problems with someone who takes issue with your poor arguments, that's your problem. Improve and move on.

My poor arguments? Ha! You twisted my point about personal freedom into condemnation of religion... Talk about a poor argument. Now you're telling me I have emotional problems? You've got lots of problems, buddy. I can't even imagine what's going on in your head to make the crazy, convoluted, nonsensical arguments you do.

 

[tdram]

wow. I'm impressed by your stalk skills. Pretty sure I've amassed at least a thousand posts since then.

I just don't like to see arguments that go no where. Personal pet peeve I suppose.

Yeah, not only that, this dude has no worthwhile argument of his own. His only argument is picking apart others' arguments using terms of logical fallacies that he doesn't even understand.

That is by far the lowest form of defense in a debate.