Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[AnonymousMed]

Hi,

I'm an incoming MS1 student and very excited to begin medical school in a few weeks. I was browsing through my school's "student clubs" that are offered, and I noticed that there are multiple religion-based groups (Christian, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim) whose primary aim it is to discus the practice of medicine through the scope of their religious and spiritual beliefs.

As an atheist, this got me thinking about how my lack of belief in the claims of religion may affect my medical career, and it also got me wondering whether or not a forum or group for secular medical students would serve a worthwhile purpose (unfortunately, there are no "secular" or "humanist" clubs at my school).

I know religion can be a touchy subject for some people, but I was hoping to get some insight from fellow medical students on the issue of being an atheist medical student:

1) First of all, I'm curious if any of your schools have any sort of secular student clubs that discuss issues of medicine/patient interaction through a secular lens? If so what are their goals/purpose?

2) In your experiences, is atheism/agnosticism common among medical students?

3) Most importantly, I'd like to have a discussion on this thread about atheism and medicine. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, if I were to start a "Secular Medical Student" group, what sort of ideas would be good starting points for interesting discussion?

To get the ball rolling...

How should an atheist physician handle interactions with intensely religious patients? In my very limited experience of shadowing physicians as an undergrad, I witnessed multiple patients discuss religious matters with the residents/attendings (ie. asking if they believe in God, if they pray, if they are religious, etc). Is it wrong to be honest with them, in times that they are likely fearful (of death, surgery, disease, etc) and seeking security through your words?

Or, can it actually be important/beneficial for secular physicians to be honest and open about their beliefs, both with their patients and the medical community as a whole? Is there a dangerous under appreciation of medicine (not in an arrogant sense, but in an "I'm not going to the doctor even though I have [insert disease/symptoms of your choice] because I know God will protect me"...sense) in religious communities?

On the flip side, can some religious physicians actually do harm to their patients by practicing through a religious lens? For example, I once shadowed an orthopedic resident who was a devout Mormon. When it came to pain management of his patients, he was very opposed to the usage of standard narcotics (hydrocodone, oxycodone, etc). He refused to prescribe drugs to many of his patients (I know I'm no doctor yet, and I know that the prescription of narcotics is an issue in itself, but it was easy to tell that he was basing his decisions largely off of his Mormon belief system) and even tried to convince them to remove all alcohol and caffeine from their diet (as if a glass of wine or a cup of coffee was going to slow down the recovery time of a broken arm...)


Lastly, I'll leave you with this. I have seen no reason to believe that any religion on Earth is anything more than man-made. There may certainly be some sort of higher power that we cannot perceive, but no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being (as proclaimed by most religions) would allow the amount of suffering that exists in the world that requires medicine in the first place. As such, I believe that this life is the only life that is guaranteed (yolo...?) and thus must be cherished and lived to the fullest of potential. In my case, I know for a fact that I became a much more open-minded, empathetic, and compassionate person towards all of fellow-mankind when I abandoned the religious beliefs that I was raised with. My lack of belief is an integral component of my desire to become a physician and contribute to humanity through the practice of medicine, and I believe I will be a better physician because of it (Note: I'm only saying that I will be a better physician than I, personally and subjectively speaking, would have been with MY previous religious beliefs...I'm by no means claiming that secular physicians are better than religious ones!).

And now for your thoughts... thanks for reading/responding!

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[DermViser]

I kind of skimmed your post (sorry, it was kind of long) but there are some schools that have some secular interest groups. Personally, if anything in medical school, it made me more religious. Why? Bc you see how small you are in the whole grand scheme of things. Call it a safety blanket by looking to a higher power, but if anything, I felt like this increased, in that I was helping someone at the most vulnerable time in their life. That person was coming to me (us) for help either for themselves, or their relative (child, mother, father). As a medical student, bc you have so few patients, you can try to connect with your patients and their families. It's an awesome feeling.

If they asked me about religous matters: whether I believe in God, if I pray, etc. it wouldn't be a problem for me to answer truthfully, bc I do those things and would be proud to admit it. I imagine however, that might be uncomfortable for an atheist.

 

[tdram]

I am an athiest as well. I personally don't like to mention it because there is incredible prejudice and mistrust of athiests out there. The word 'athiest' itself has a negative connotation to most people in America. Studies have shown that atheists are among the least trusted people in our society, and are often ranked only slightly above rapists.

When people ask what my religious beliefs are, I usually say, I was brought up as a Christian. That's not a lie, and it also doesn't scare them.

Maybe starting an athiest group is a good idea. That way there will be a place for people to go and talk about how to address these issues, and how to not feel uncomfortable when everyone is talking about god and prayer and expecting you to chime in, and you don't want to lie and pretend you're religious, but at the same time you don't want to make others uncomfortable around you.

 

[tdram]

I kind of skimmed your post (sorry, it was kind of long) but there are some schools that have some secular interest groups. Personally, if anything in medical school, it made me more religious. Why? Bc you see how small you are in the whole grand scheme of things. Call it a safety blanket by looking to a higher power, but if anything, I felt like this increased, in that I was helping someone at the most vulnerable time in their life. That person was coming to me (us) for help either for themselves, or their relative (child, mother, father). As a medical student, bc you have so few patients, you can try to connect with your patients and their families. It's an awesome feeling.

If they asked me about religous matters: whether I believe in God, if I pray, etc. it wouldn't be a problem for me to answer truthfully, bc I do those things and would be proud to admit it. I imagine however, that might be uncomfortable for an atheist.

That's interesting because I pretty much become a full athiest in medical school. Before medical school I was probably 80% there, but now I'm 99% there. Interesting how the same experience can push people in totally opposite directions.

 

[EMDO2018]

I am an atheist too, grew up in the deep south, going to school in the deep south, ,so yeah my life has been kinda depressing. What region is your school in? I would feel out the vibe of the school before you tried to start something drastic, and starting an atheist group is drastic we are the most hated people in America.

 

[DermViser]

That's interesting because I pretty much become a full athiest in medical school. Before medical school I was probably 80% there, but now I'm 99% there. Interesting how the same experience can push people in totally opposite directions.

I could just as easily see the opposite position. Many people will see someone die abruptly and quickly (i.e. septic shock, dissecting aortic aneurysm) and wonder about the existence of God and if so, why he didn't save the person.

 

[tdram]

I am an atheist too, grew up in the deep south, going to school in the deep south, ,so yeah my life has been kinda depressing. What region is your school in? I would feel out the vibe of the school before you tried to start something drastic, and starting an atheist group is drastic we are the most hated people in America.

Wow, how do you manage it in such a religious part of the country?

 

[tdram]

You may find this useful if you're in the deep south: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/atheists-in-the-bible-belt-a-survival-guide/

 

[EMDO2018]

Wow, how do you manage it in such a religious part of the country?

I don't talk about religion, there are a few atheist here and there. I don't care for the vast majority of religious people.

 

[AnonymousMed]

I kind of skimmed your post (sorry, it was kind of long) but there are some schools that have some secular interest groups. Personally, if anything in medical school, it made me more religious. Why? Bc you see how small you are in the whole grand scheme of things. Call it a safety blanket by looking to a higher power, but if anything, I felt like this increased, in that I was helping someone at the most vulnerable time in their life. That person was coming to me (us) for help either for themselves, or their relative (child, mother, father). As a medical student, bc you have so few patients, you can try to connect with your patients and their families. It's an awesome feeling.

If they asked me about religous matters: whether I believe in God, if I pray, etc. it wouldn't be a problem for me to answer truthfully, bc I do those things and would be proud to admit it. I imagine however, that might be uncomfortable for an atheist.

No worries. Thank you for the response and letting me know that some schools have similar interest groups. I guess in response to you learning how small you are in the whole grand scheme of things through learning medicine, I had a similar revelation when I gave up belief in god. I came to the realization that there is no guaranteed existential purpose for human existence, and that it is possible (and likely) that our existence is random, difficult, unfair, full of suffering, but also one that offers the possibilities of happiness, pleasure, community, love, etc. In my worldview, we're literally nothing in the grand scheme of things after we die, it's all about making the most of our lives and the lives of others while we're alive!

I am an athiest as well. I personally don't like to mention it because there is incredible prejudice and mistrust of athiests out there. The word 'athiest' itself has a negative connotation to most people in America. Studies have shown that atheists are among the least trusted people in our society, and are often ranked only slightly above rapists. When people ask what my religious beliefs are, I usually say, I was brought up as a Christian. That's not a lie, and it also doesn't scare them.

Maybe starting an athiest group is a good idea. That way there will be a place for people to go and talk about how to address these issues, and how to not feel uncomfortable when everyone is talking about god and prayer and expecting you to chime in, and you don't want to lie and pretend you're religious, but at the same time you don't want to make others uncomfortable around you.

You really hit the nail on the head with the idea that there is incredible prejudice and mistrust of atheists...That is definitely one of the reasons I created this thread and would like to discuss the issue in the first place. Obviously, most atheists are incredibly kind people and in most ways are just like everybody else. I feel like it is important for us normal, kind, hardworking members of society to not hide our beliefs, in order to help shift the general population's perception of an atheist. Yet at the same time...Trust is key in the physician-patient relationship and simply acknowledging that you are an atheist may, in the eyes of the patient, remove all sense of trust from the relationship (simply due to the negative connotation, regardless of who you are as an individual).

 

[Psai]

Don't do it. As physicians we treat our patients the same and respect their wishes, no matter how stupid they may be. Don't separate yourself by the lack of belief. People are at their most vulnerable when they are sick and i will have no trouble praying with someone if that is what they need. Your job isn't to preach to folk and what you believe or don't is irrelevant to the patient's wellbeing. I say this as a guy who basically follows richard dawkins

 

[Nasrudin]

Don't do it. As physicians we treat our patients the same and respect their wishes, no matter how stupid they may be. Don't separate yourself by the lack of belief. People are at their most vulnerable when they are sick and i will have no trouble praying with someone if that is what they need. Your job isn't to preach to folk and what you believe or don't is irrelevant to the patient's wellbeing. I say this as a guy who basically follows richard dawkins

I agree completely. I went to a southern school that was also predominantly African American in population. With a significant intensely religious Muslim contingency. God and his humans who were occupied about his business were a constant everywhere. Guest speakers at conferences were often there explicitly to tell us how to incorporate god and spirituality into patient care as a means of optimizing it.

I never felt it necessary to express atheism in the form of a group. And am generally against that strategy in engaging the folly and dangerous use of religious dogma. The only time I felt compelled to enter into argument with people was during a pediatrics conference where some Muslim doctors were talking about how to regard same sex parenting. They were basically saying it damaged the children and engendered homosexual identities. With my best measured disgust I told them in conference that they were *****s.

Other than that. Keep it to yourself.

Our best strategy if for humor and common sense and a dislike for lies to reach broader consciousness. Confrontation is for political arenas such as intelligent design in science textbooks or the prevention of jihadist cults from obtaining catastrophic weapons. And the like.

Patient care should be as apoliticized as possible.

 

[tdram]

Don't do it. As physicians we treat our patients the same and respect their wishes, no matter how stupid they may be. Don't separate yourself by the lack of belief. People are at their most vulnerable when they are sick and i will have no trouble praying with someone if that is what they need. Your job isn't to preach to folk and what you believe or don't is irrelevant to the patient's wellbeing. I say this as a guy who basically follows richard dawkins

I certainly would not preach to any patient or argue with them about their religion. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as to pray with a patient. I think that would be insincere. I don't mind finding a priest (most hospitals have one) and then being present during the prayer, but it wouldn't make sense for me as an athiest to fake belief in prayer for the benefit of a patient.

I actually have been asked about my religion by several patients, even as a med student, and it's a tricky situation. Usually these are hyper-religious types who would go into shock if I told them I was an athiest. So the dilemma becomes, should I be honest with them because the patient-doctor relationship should be one of trust? or should I lie to them because the doctor also has a responsibility to do no harm to the patient, physically or psychologically. Maybe athiests shouldn't be treating hyper-religious patients because if the patient was to ever find out that he/she was treated by an athiest, that might enough to cause them significant psychological harm.

I had a hyper-religious patient that I ended up in a really long conversation with and she sincerely believed that athiests were possessed by the "devil". Believing in the wrong god, in her opinion, was simply a mistake that could be corrected, but denying the existence of a god all together had to be rooted in pure evil. I kept my mouth shut and didn't say a word about athiesm, but I feel like if I was an attending, I would be honest with her and let her decide if she wanted to continue having me take care of her or not. It just wouldn't have been right to continue seeing her and let her find out down the road that she was being taken care of by the "devil". That would certainly harm her a lot mentally.

 

[DermViser]

I certainly would not preach to any patient or argue with them about their religion. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as to pray with a patient. I think that would be insincere. I don't mind finding a priest (most hospitals have one) and then being present during the prayer, but it wouldn't make sense for me as an athiest to fake belief in prayer for the benefit of a patient.

I actually have been asked about my religion by several patients, even as a med student, and it's a tricky situation. Usually these are hyper-religious types who would go into shock if I told them I was an athiest. So the dilemma becomes, should I be honest with them because the patient-doctor relationship should be one of trust? or should I lie to them because the doctor also has a responsibility to do no harm to the patient, physically or psychologically. Maybe athiests shouldn't be treating hyper-religious patients because if the patient was to ever find out that he/she was treated by an athiest, that might enough to cause them significant psychological harm.

I had a hyper-religious patient that I ended up in a really long conversation with and she sincerely believed that athiests were possessed by the "devil". Believing in the wrong god, in her opinion, was simply a mistake that could be corrected, but denying the existence of a god all together had to be rooted in pure evil. I kept my mouth shut and didn't say a word about athiesm, but I feel like if I was an attending, I would be honest with her and let her decide if she wanted to continue having me take care of her or not. It just wouldn't have been right to continue seeing her and let her find out down the road that she was being taken care of by the "devil". That would certainly harm her a lot mentally.

If you were a Heme/Onc doctor, and your cancer patient asked you to pray with him, would you?

 

[tdram]

If you were a Heme/Onc doctor, and your cancer patient asked you to pray with him, would you?

Depends on what you mean by "pray with him". Is it like the priest-type scenario where I actually stand there next to him and say a prayer for god to save him, or do I just let him pray while I'm there with him offering support. I wouldn't do the first one, but I would be fine with doing the second one. I also would be fine with getting a priest to do the praying with him, because that person is an expert in the matter and I'm not.

 

[DermViser]

Depends on what you mean by "pray with him". Is it like the priest-type scenario where I actually stand there next to him and say a prayer for god to save him, or do I just let him pray while I'm there with him offering support. I wouldn't do the first one, but I would be fine with doing the second one. I also would be fine with getting a priest to do the praying with him, because that person is an expert in the matter and I'm not.

Let me refine the question a little bit more: What if he wanted you to do the second option, but saying a prayer with him (i.e. a specific Bible verse or something which he has handwritten)?

 

[evilbooyaa]

If people want to pray themselves while I hold hands with them, I will be more than happy to do that. If a patient asks me to say some words from the bible, I'll tell him/her that I'm not Christian and it would be better if they said it. I think. I've had the first scenario happen to me, but not the second one, at least not yet.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

A very religious, elderly cancer patient once asked me if I believed in God and to pray with her. I told her that I did, even though I actually don't and held her hands while we prayed. I felt that in that moment, she was simply scared of the idea that she might die soon and looking for comfort in her belief that God was watching over her and that she would soon find peace in heaven. Maybe it was insincere, but I'm glad I did it.

I've also prayed with religious friends when they have asked me to. My boyfriend's family is pretty religious and when I am at their home, I join them in holding hands and praying before we eat. I think it's more a matter of showing respect for their beliefs in the same way that I would hope they respect mine.

 

[tdram]

Let me refine the question a little bit more: What if he wanted you to do the second option, but saying a prayer with him (i.e. a specific Bible verse or something which he has handwritten)?

Here's the thing, I have no problem reading a line from the Bible or whatever other holy book or scripture he wants me to. To me it makes no difference whether he asks me to read the Bible aloud with him, or he asks me to read aloud his favorite poem, or song lyrics or whatever. If it comforts him, I'm happy to do it.

My concern is about how he'll interpret what I'm doing. I don't want to mislead him into thinking I'm a religious person when I'm not. I don't want to pray with him on multiple occasions, have him thinking I'm a religious, god believing person and be comforted by that, then be shocked when someone else tells him I'm an atheist. On the other hand, if he knows I'm not a believer but it just comforts him to have me pray with him, then that's perfectly fine. The thing is I may not know which situation I'm in. It all depends how he would react if he knew I wasn't religious.

Maybe I should have just told him up front I'm an atheist? They tell us we should keep our religion to ourselves, but what if it would make a huge difference in the patient-doctor relationship? Especially for atheists given how much distrust and fear there is of us. With most other religions the patient can figure out what the person's religion is from the name and then choose to avoid a person they don't trust. Can't really do that with atheists.

What do you all think?

 

[DrCharlemagne]

A very religious, elderly cancer patient once asked me if I believed in God and to pray with her. I told her that I did, even though I actually don't and held her hands while we prayed. I felt that in that moment, she was simply scared of the idea that she might die soon and looking for comfort in her belief that God was watching over her and that she would soon find peace in heaven. Maybe it was insincere, but I'm glad I did it.

What if the time pressure were off? While I have no problems trying to artfully walk around whether I believe in God or not and bowing my head while privately meditating, I worry that over time I might slip-up or the truth would come out about my beliefs. Then the patient could feel, quite rightly, that I had lied about my beliefs, and if I'm willing to compromise my honor on something so important to the patient, what else might the patient expect me to compromise on?

 

[tdram]

A very religious, elderly cancer patient once asked me if I believed in God and to pray with her. I told her that I did, even though I actually don't and held her hands while we prayed. I felt that in that moment, she was simply scared of the idea that she might die soon and looking for comfort in her belief that God was watching over her and that she would soon find peace in heaven. Maybe it was insincere, but I'm glad I did it.

I've also prayed with religious friends with they have asked me to. My boyfriend's family is pretty religious and when I am at their home, I join them in holding hands and praying before we eat. I think it's more a matter of showing respect for their beliefs in the same way that I would hope they respect mine.

Did any of these people know you didn't believe in God? If they knew and still asked you to pray, that's a pretty pointless and insensitive thing to do. Why would you ask someone to do something they don't like or believe in just to make yourself happy? If they didn't know, then it's likely you misled them to thinking you are, which is also not great, and insincere.

 

[DermViser]

Here's the thing, I have no problem reading a line from the Bible or whatever other holy book or scripture he wants me to. To me it makes no difference whether he asks me to read the Bible aloud with him, or he asks me to read aloud his favorite poem, or song lyrics or whatever. If it comforts him, I'm happy to do it.

My concern is about how he'll interpret what I'm doing. I don't want to mislead him into thinking I'm a religious person when I'm not. I don't want to pray with him on multiple occasions, have him thinking I'm a religious, god believing person and be comforted by that, then be shocked when someone else tells him I'm an atheist. On the other hand, if he knows I'm not a believer but it just comforts him to have me pray with him, then that's perfectly fine. The thing is I may not know which situation I'm in. It all depends how he would react if he knew I wasn't religious.

Maybe I should have just told him up front I'm an atheist? They tell us we should keep our religion to ourselves, but what if it would make a huge difference in the patient-doctor relationship? Especially for atheists given how much distrust and fear there is of us. With most other religions the patient can figure out what the person's religion is from the name and then choose to avoid a person they don't trust. Can't really do that with atheists.

What do you all think?

I don't think he would take it badly if he were to "find out" you were an atheist. If I was a patient, I would feel touched that my doctor was willing to put aside his beliefs for the moment for my comfort before I pass on. You're not losing anything by doing it. The public's biggest complaint about physicians up to this point is that they feel that physicians aren't empathetic enough. Anything I can do, within reason, to prove that is untrue, I will do.

 

[tdram]

I don't think he would take it badly if he were to "find out" you were an atheist. If I was a patient, I would feel touched that my doctor was willing to put aside his beliefs for the moment for my comfort before I pass on. You're not losing anything by doing it. The public's biggest complaint about physicians up to this point is that they feel that physicians aren't empathetic enough. Anything I can do, within reason, to prove that is untrue, I will do.

If I were to say, OK, I'll pray with you, but I want to point out I don't believe in God. Would he still want me to pray with him?

I think you are underestimating how much religious people mistrust atheists. It's different if I was a different religion, but a lot of religious people see atheists in a completely different category.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

I don't think he would take it badly if he were to "find out" you were an atheist. If I was a patient, I would feel touched that my doctor was willing to put aside his beliefs for the moment for my comfort before I pass on. You're not losing anything by doing it. The public's biggest complaint about physicians up to this point is that they feel that physicians aren't empathetic enough. Anything I can do, within reason, to prove that is untrue, I will do.

But that's you, and you have a nuanced perspective as an educated healthcare provider. What of the previously referenced patient who thought atheists were possessed by the Devil? or members of the public who think atheists are less trustworthy than politicians? I've had new acquaintances fear to touch me once they found out I'd lost the faith.

Maybe a better question is, in longterm care relationships, how likely is it for a patient to discover a medical student, resident or attending's atheism?

 

[DrBodacious]

One thing medical training put in perspective for me is that I think there must be a physiologic mechanism in the CNS that wires people to need/seek/be comforted by religious beliefs. Likely, communities tightly bound by religion over the development of the human race were positively selected by increased reproduction and resource management.

Therefore, whether I think the real God is the Christian God, Muslim, Hindu etc, or whether there is a God at all, I understand the value in people's beliefs and that their beliefs are soundly based.

On that note, I don't have any problem praying with patients or offering comforting words relating to their religious beliefs. I think there really isn't any shame in hiding atheism if your patient is looking for understanding and wants to feel like you know and understand their beliefs.

 

[tdram]

But that's you, and you have a nuanced perspective as an educated healthcare provider. What of the previously referenced patient who thought atheists were possessed by the Devil? or members of the public who think atheists are less trustworthy than politicians? I've had new acquaintances fear to touch me once they found out I'd lost the faith.

Maybe a better question is, in longterm care relationships, how likely is it for a patient to discover a medical student, resident or attending's atheism?

Forget politicians, polls have shown that people consider atheists no more trustworthy than rapists. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1

Do you think my patient who thinks an atheist is on the same level morally as a rapist would want me to pray with him? Or that wouldn't have a problem with being treated by such a person?

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

What if the time pressure were off? While I have no problems trying to artfully walk around whether I believe in God or not and bowing my head while privately meditating, I worry that over time I might slip-up or the truth would come out about my beliefs. Then the patient could feel, quite rightly, that I had lied about my beliefs, and if I'm willing to compromise my honor on something so important to the patient, what else might the patient expect me to compromise on?

I don't think it would have made a difference if the "time pressure" was off. It was more the fact that she was sick and vulnerable that made we want to help comfort her, not necessarily just the fact that she was dying. That is a good point about the patient losing trust if they were to find out that I had lied about my beliefs. I obviously wasn't the patient's doctor in this case, so I'm not sure if I would have acted differently if I had been a resident or attending.

 

[MRSAful Fate]

I go to church with my wife all the time (she's Christian). I used to be terrified that I would be outed as an atheist if someone started questioning me about my faith and I would end up being chased by a mob +/- pitchforks. That never happened and I have found that it is very easy to be ambiguous about religion and people don't press further. I've been asked to pray with patients and that just involved hanging my head while they said something, no problem. If someone asked me to pray over them I would hedge with something like "I'm afraid I wouldn't know how to begin, do you have a verse memorized that you would like to say?" Years ago as an EMT I transported a Catholic priest and he was the only patient who ever asked me point blank about my belief in god and I replied that I wasn't religious and moved on.

 

[tdram]

I think one of the reasons people mistrust athiests more than people from other religions or other belief systems is the idea that you need a religion to have a system of morals. The religious person thinks that even if you believe in a different god, at least you believe in a god and therefore you have some moral system. Most of the moral systems are very similar in nature, too. But an athiest has no such thing. If we hurt or kill somebody, we aren't worried that a god will punish us for our actions. That scares people.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

Did any of these people know you didn't believe in God? If they knew and still asked you to pray, that's a pretty pointless and insensitive thing to do. Why would you ask someone to do something they don't like or believe in just to make yourself happy? If they didn't know, then it's likely you misled them to thinking you are, which is also not great, and insincere.

I had a close friend in college who was very religious and with whom I would often talk about religion and she knew that I didn't believe in God. I grew up in a non-religious family, so it's not as if I am actively against belief in any God or organized religion. It was just never a part of my life growing up and thus isn't important to me. But I do understand why people find comfort in religion and being a part of something bigger than themselves and I think it's great for people to have some set of beliefs that guide them, make them feel they are protected and serve a purpose, whether it be through religion or something else. So because I cared about her as a friend, I would often pray with her when she was going through a rough time because I knew this is what would personally help her feel better above anything else I could probably do or say.

With my boyfriend's family, they know that I am not Christian, but I don't believe they know my beliefs about God. I just don't see any reason to bring something like that up when I am a guest in their home. I think it's just like taking part of any other custom someone's family takes part in because of their culture or religion while you are their guest because it shows them respect and interest in who they are.

 

[DermViser]

Forget politicians, polls have shown that people consider atheists no more trustworthy than rapists. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1

Do you think my patient who thinks an atheist is on the same level morally as a rapist would want me to pray with him? Or that wouldn't have a problem with being treated by such a person?

The question they ask in that poll doesn't make sense. Rape has nothing to do with crashing your car.

 

[tdram]

With my boyfriend's family, they know that I am not Christian, but I don't believe they know my beliefs about God. I just don't see any reason to bring something like that up when I am a guest in their home. I think it's just like taking part of any other custom someone's family takes part in because of their culture or religion while you are their guest because it shows them respect and interest in who they are.

Yeah, that's true. But with your boyfriend's family, you're a bit more than just a guest in that situation. I mean, you might end marrying this guy. Would you keep it a secret from them forever? How would they feel if they found out you didn't believe?

 

[tdram]

The question they ask in that poll doesn't make sense. Rape has nothing to do with crashing your car.

You misunderstood the question. They basically were asking which of the three categories of people would be most likely to be associated with a morally reprehensible act (stealing the money, or crashing a parked car and fleeing the scene). People find rapists to be morally reprehensible people who would also be more lkely to commit other morally reprehensible acts. They also consider atheists that way.

 

[DermViser]

You misunderstood the question. They basically were asking which of the three categories of people would be most likely to be associated with a morally reprehensible act (stealing the money, or crashing a parked car and fleeing the scene). People find rapists to be morally reprehensible people who would also be more lkely to commit other morally reprehensible acts. They also consider atheists that way.

Well likely it's bc a moral judgement is being made on their part. For many religious people, they derive their moral fiber from the God of their choice. So if they feel that way, then someone who doesn't believe in a God, has no moral fiber (after all, in their thinking, where else could they possibly derive a moral code from?) Hence why they likely chose the atheist option (vs. the rapist option in which the only thing that is implied is that he's a rapist and has nothing to do with crashing a car or stealing).

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The question they ask in that poll doesn't make sense. Rape has nothing to do with crashing your car.

Not only that, but here's the actual data.

Edit: Here's how the data was collected.

Richard is 31 years old. On his way to work one day, he accidentally backed his car into a parked van. Because pedestrians were watching, he got out of his car. He pretended to write down his insurance information. He then tucked the blank note into the van’s window before getting back into his car and driving away.

Later the same day, Richard found a wallet on the sidewalk. Nobody was looking, so he took all of the money out of the wallet. He then threw the wallet in a trash can.

About a quarter of the subjects were then asked what was more likely: That Richard was (a) a teacher or (b) a teacher and a Christian?

Other subjects were given the options of Richard being (a) a teacher or (b) a teacher and a Muslim?

Others had to decide if Richard was (a) a teacher or (b) a teacher and a rapist?

Finally, the last group had to decide if Richard was (a) a teacher or (b) a teacher and an atheist?


As usual, check the source = see that the results were completely overblown.

 

[Fluffy Pomeranian]

Yeah, that's true. But with your boyfriend's family, you're a bit more than just a guest in that situation. I mean, you might end marrying this guy. Would you keep it a secret from them forever? How would they feel if they found out you didn't believe?

I don't actively keep it a secret from them and if they were to find out they would probably be disappointed at first but would eventually get over it. They were upset when we moved in together about a year ago, but they eventually accepted it. What's most important to me is that he is fine with my beliefs and if we were to get married, we would be on the same page with regards to how to raise children, morals, going to church, etc. It's possible for two people, one raised with religion and one without, to still have the same ideas about these things.

 

[tdram]

Well likely it's bc a moral judgement is being made on their part. For many religious people, they derive their moral fiber from the God of their choice. So if they feel that way, then someone who doesn't believe in a God, has no moral fiber (after all, in their thinking, where else could they possibly derive a moral code from?) Hence why they likely chose the atheist option (vs. the rapist option in which the only thing that is implied is that he's a rapist and has nothing to do with crashing a car or stealing).

OK, fair enough. I see now that the study is likely flawed. However, I still believe that there is considerable mistrust of atheists in society, because, as you say, religious people often assume that an atheist cannot have a moral fiber without a god to derive it form.

 

[tdram]

The results of the study still do show a significant difference between Christian and Atheists, showing that people do trust atheists less than christians, though not significantly different from rapists or muslims.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

OK, fair enough. I see now that the study is likely flawed. However, I still believe that there is considerable mistrust of atheists in society, because, as you say, religious people often assume that an atheist cannot have a moral fiber without a god to derive it form.

Sure, there are some religious people who will question your trustworthiness because of a perceived lack of moral framework, however personally, I have more of an issue with knowing whether or not I'm interacting with an "atheist" (no problem) or an "anti-theist" whose presuppositions are that I am stupid, irrational, untrustworthy, or maybe need to stop breathing. This militant anti-theist movement has actually harmed atheist as a whole, in my opinion. Hating what someone else believes can easily give way to hating those who believe it. And this works both ways. It's no good.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The results of the study still do show a significant difference between Christian and Atheists, showing that people do trust atheists less than christians, though not significantly different from rapists or muslims.

These people, in this survey.
But is this really surprising to anyone? Also, I can't access the entire study so I don't know much about the Canadian students that were polled.

 

[EMDO2018]

I go to church with my wife all the time (she's Christian). I used to be terrified that I would be outed as an atheist if someone started questioning me about my faith and I would end up being chased by a mob +/- pitchforks. That never happened and I have found that it is very easy to be ambiguous about religion and people don't press further. I've been asked to pray with patients and that just involved hanging my head while they said something, no problem. If someone asked me to pray over them I would hedge with something like "I'm afraid I wouldn't know how to begin, do you have a verse memorized that you would like to say?" Years ago as an EMT I transported a Catholic priest and he was the only patient who ever asked me point blank about my belief in god and I replied that I wasn't religious and moved on.

Your wife doesn't care that you are an atheist? Did you tell her this upfront when you were dating, or did you wait a while. I've relationships end over religious difference, then again as an African American atheist in the deep south I've pretty much accepted the fact i'll be forever alone.

 

[EMDO2018]

Sure, there are some religious people who will question your trustworthiness because of a perceived lack of moral framework, however personally, I have more of an issue with knowing whether or not I'm interacting with an "atheist" (no problem) or an "anti-theist" whose presuppositions are that I am stupid, irrational, untrustworthy, or maybe need to stop breathing. This militant anti-theist movement has actually harmed atheist as a whole, in my opinion. Hating what someone else believes can easily give way to hating those who believe it. And this works both ways. It's no good.

That's what most Christians think of atheist.

 

[tdram]

That's what most Christians think of atheist.

It's also what most hyper-religious people seem to think about other religions too.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

That's what most Christians think of atheist.

Not if they actually believe and practice what they ought. A fundamental distaste for the "unconverted" is completely at odds with the entire point of Christianity.(go and make disciples) I realize this doesn't play out the way it's supposed to in practice though.
Which is why I said "it works both ways". Both religious and non religious hating one another for what the other believes.

 

[tdram]

The thing that puzzles me about super religious doctors is that, for everything else they require solid scientific evidence. If someone anecdotally tells them a treatment works, they'll blast it. They won't believe a drug works unless they've see a foolproof randomized controlled clinical trial demonstrating its effects. On the other hand, they will blindly believe in everything their religion tells them, with no questions asked. Where's the randomized controlled trial for each statement in the Bible?

 

[EMDO2018]

Not if they actually believe and practice what they ought. A fundamental distaste for the "unconverted" is completely at odds with the entire point of Christianity.(go and make disciples) I realize this doesn't play out the way it's supposed to in practice though.
Which is why I said "it works both ways". Both religious and non religious hating one another for what the other believes.

No offense but, how many people in the church actually practice what they preach? Not many.

 

[DokterMom]

No worries. Thank you for the response and letting me know that some schools have similar interest groups. I guess in response to you learning how small you are in the whole grand scheme of things through learning medicine, I had a similar revelation when I gave up belief in god. I came to the realization that there is no guaranteed existential purpose for human existence, and that it is possible (and likely) that our existence is random, difficult, unfair, full of suffering, but also one that offers the possibilities of happiness, pleasure, community, love, etc. In my worldview, we're literally nothing in the grand scheme of things after we die, it's all about making the most of our lives and the lives of others while we're alive!

You really hit the nail on the head with the idea that there is incredible prejudice and mistrust of atheists...That is definitely one of the reasons I created this thread and would like to discuss the issue in the first place. Obviously, most atheists are incredibly kind people and in most ways are just like everybody else. I feel like it is important for us normal, kind, hardworking members of society to not hide our beliefs, in order to help shift the general population's perception of an atheist. Yet at the same time...Trust is key in the physician-patient relationship and simply acknowledging that you are an atheist may, in the eyes of the patient, remove all sense of trust from the relationship (simply due to the negative connotation, regardless of who you are as an individual).

How will things ever change if kind, good-hearted atheists, agnostics and humanists stay closeted?

I'd certainly not suggest physicians advocate atheism to anxious patients who'd be comforted by prayer, but until atheists find the courage to stand up and let all the 'Good Christians*' know what a real atheist is like, how can we expect it to change?

We can learn a thing or three from the gays on this one --

* By 'Good Christians', the ' is used not because I don't genuinely find many Christians to be good, but rather to identify a particular sub-group of people who self-righteously consider themselves more moral and Godly than the rest of the world.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The thing that puzzles me about super religious doctors is that, for everything else they require solid scientific evidence. If someone anecdotally tells them a treatment works, they'll blast it. They won't believe a drug works unless they've see a foolproof randomized controlled clinical trial demonstrating its effects. On the other hand, they will blindly believe in everything their religion tells them, with no questions asked. Where's the randomized controlled trial for each statement in the Bible?

I don't see why you would find this puzzling, surely you can understand that a system of testing for the natural world has very limited applicability to supernatural occurrences. As far as the things that can be proven from the bible, that's the realm of archaeology and there has been some useful evidence produced from that.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

No offense but, how many people in the church actually practice what they preach? Not many.

You can't really say this with any certainty nor can I. It's a pointless debate to have. Hypocrites are everywhere, including in the Church.

 

[tdram]

I don't see why you would find this puzzling, surely you can understand that a system of testing for the natural world has very limited applicability to supernatural occurrences. As far as the things that can be proven from the bible, that's the realm of archaeology and there has been some useful evidence produced from that.

That's always the answer I get - well it's supernatural so it doesn't apply. I personally think that's a cop out.

If you can blindly believe one thing, there's no reason how you can argue against blindly believing in another. If you need evidence to believe things, then you shouldn't believe in the supernatural at all until you develop a method to test and evaluate it.