Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[Mad Jack]

People do care, though. That is the whole point of this discussion. How should you respond as an atheist when patients ask you sincerely if you believe in god, pray, etc?

These "studies" you are referring to without citation sound like bogus, and I can provide plenty of evidence that, on the contrary, religion has been shown to have numerous harmful effects on the psychology and health of individuals and communities as a whole. Where shall we start...Child-abusing catholic priests? The crusades? Suicide bombings?

I've provided plenty of links, and can provide plenty more studies if you'd like. Please show me any studies you have that provide evidence to the contrary in regard to actively practicing members of religion. Just because there are outliers in a given religion that are bad people does not mean religion itself is bad for the average person. One in few hundred thousand Muslims decides to become a suicide bomber, or one priest out of a hundred (who themselves represent a tiny fraction of Catholicism) make all of Catholicism bad?

You may be all caught up on religion, but ask anyone here who's actually worked in a hospital how often religion comes up and it's once a year, max. You're building mountains out of molehills. When religion comes into play, we've got chaplains, that's outside of our SOP, and patients know that it is neither our duty nor our purpose to bring religion into their treatment, aside from respecting their wishes.

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[tdram]

This is obviously just a hypothesis and one of the the ways I rationalize religion. To me, there has to be some reason why cultures all around the world have developed religion. I think people are wired to want/need religion, and personally I do think natural selection has been present. If not, then I guess God is the one who is installing different religions around the world?

It will take someone smarter than me to prove this is actually causation rather than correlation. In some ways, religion has been an "opiate for the masses," and people that are part of a stable community and able to accept their place in life with a more positive attitude offered by the comforts of religion are more likely to thrive and reproduce, I think. (I am not trying to dis religion, I am just looking at it from an outside perspective. You can not deny after seeing a newborn in the nusery that there are not a number of instinctive behaviors that various organisms have in their DNA, and maybe religion is one of them.)

Human beings need to have an explanation for the world around them. It's built into us. We don't like to not understand things. In the early days, they developed religions as their explanation. The concept of God does make a lot of sense to a human with limited knowledge of how the universe operates. It's pretty much the natural explanation. It was a pretty satisfying explanation and a lot of people bought it and still do to this day. It's still pretty comforting to think of a god watching over us that's going to take care of us and give us all justice. That by itself doesn't make it any more real than the Lord of the Rings, though. In fact, many of the religions of the past are today's "myths", like Norse and Greek gods. These were real gods people worshipped and believed in, and today they're thought of as simply stories.

Now that explanation breaks down when you start to question things like why an omnipotent, omniscient God who loves all of his creation is allowing 9 year old children to get brutally raped and murdered. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Religious people always have an explanation for everything, though, so it's pointless to argue. If you're going to reject religion or change religions, it has to come from within. I don't agree with trying to convince people to convert or to become an atheist.

 

[pilotjoe]

I've provided plenty of links, and can provide plenty more studies if you'd like. Please show me any studies you have that provide evidence to the contrary in regard to actively practicing members of religion. Just because there are outliers in a given religion that are bad people does not mean religion itself is bad for the average person. One in few hundred thousand Muslims decides to become a suicide bomber, or one priest out of a hundred (who themselves represent a tiny fraction of Catholicism) make all of Catholicism bad?

You may be all caught up on religion, but ask anyone here who's actually worked in a hospital how often religion comes up and it's once a year, max. You're building mountains out of molehills. When religion comes into play, we've got chaplains, that's outside of our SOP, and patients know that it is neither our duty nor our purpose to bring religion into their treatment, aside from respecting their wishes.

How about my post earlier?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
This one is about how a disgustingly high percentage of Americans believe in the biblical creation story as the actual sequence of events leading up to today.

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/21/sor...f_americans_dont_believe_the_big_bang_theory/
This one is about the disgustingly high percentage of Americans who do not believe in the big bang theory.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/feb/16/20040216-113955-2061r/?page=all
This one is about the disgustingly high percentage of Americans who believe the myths in the bible are literally true.

You do not need religion to be a happy, ethical person with strong community ties. Religion can be very, very harmful. See the Crusades, the Conquistadors, current mid-Eastern conflict, etc. The fact that something gives you comfort does not make it true.

EDIT: There have been a lot of deaths in the name of Christ, Allah, God, etc. Funny, I've never heard tell of anyone killing in the name of evolution by natural selection. It must be because it does not have a catchy name.

 

[tdram]

Tell me:
1. money
2. power
3. land
4. resources
have nothing to do with it.

Over simplifying war into some caricature about religion isn't being very fair.

If you're seriously going to argue with me that there isn't massive amounts of harm being done to people all around the world in the name of a religion, then I can't argue with you because you're clueless. Maybe you should talk to some gay people and see how much they've had to go through because religions think they're "sinners". Don't think money, land, or resources has anything to do with persecuting gays. Or some women who have had to live miserable lives thanks to Islamic law.

 

[Mad Jack]

How about my post earlier?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
This one is about how a disgustingly high percentage of Americans believe in the creation story as the actual sequence of events leading up to today.

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/21/sor...f_americans_dont_believe_the_big_bang_theory/
This one is about the disgustingly high percentage of Americans who do not believe in the big bang theory.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/feb/16/20040216-113955-2061r/?page=all
This one is about the disgustingly high percentage of Americans who believe the myths in the bible are literally true.

You do not need religion to be a happy, ethical person with strong community ties. Religion can be very, very harmful. See the Crusades, the Conquistadors, current mid-Eastern conflict, etc. The fact that something gives you comfort does not make it true.

None of those studies show that religion is actually bad for people though, that it makes them less happy, healthy, emotionally stable, or likely to exhibit antisocial behavior. Whether or not your colleagues or patients believe in a creator or not and how old they believe the earth is are both irrelevant to their health and the practice of medicine.

I take exception with particular individuals and groups that might not be able to practice medicine in a manner that respects the beliefs or lack thereof of patients, however, such as Christians that refuse to prescribe necessary birth control- medicine should be practiced in a neutral manner with regard to the faith of the practitioner. (Hence my chagrin with LUCOM)

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

If you're seriously going to argue with me that there isn't massive amounts of harm being done to people all around the world in the name of a religion, then I can't argue with you because you're clueless.

Edit: I've decide to show how particularly weak this response is.

1. You have said nothing to rebut my counter claims about war and religion
2. You abandoned that argument and started a new one about "harm being done in the name of religion" (red herring)
3. You present evidence to win your new argument...an argument no one was having.
4. You've presented a false dilemma, I either agree with you or I'm clueless.
5. the I'm "clueless" part is a personal insult/attack

 

[tdram]

What a dilemma for me, I guess I'm clueless given those two options.

You don't have to take it from me. There are plenty of people right here in our country who have been vilified, abused, and denied their civil rights because of something written in the bible. Just go talk to them and you'll see what kind of damage happens. One of the posters on here shared a heartbreaking story that you might want to read before you dismiss the ill effects that religion can have.

 

[tdram]

None of those studies show that religion is actually bad for people though, that it makes them less happy, healthy, emotionally stable, or likely to exhibit antisocial behavior. Whether or not your colleagues or patients believe in a creator or not and how old they believe the earth is are both irrelevant to their health and the practice of medicine.

I take exception with particular individuals and groups that might not be able to practice medicine in a manner that respects the beliefs or lack thereof of patients, however, such as Christians that refuse to prescribe necessary birth control- medicine should be practiced in a neutral manner with regard to the faith of the practitioner. (Hence my chagrin with LUCOM)

Your study also implies that correlation equals causation. The part about religion that makes people happier and more emotionally stable is the tight bonds formed in the religious community. On the other hand, you only need to turn on your TV to see all the antisocial behavior and emotional instability that happens every day due to religious extremism. Take a look on Youtube at videos of children brainwashed from birth to hate members of another religion and tell me that leads to healthy, emotionally stable adults.

 

[AnonymousMed]

You don't have to take it from me. There are plenty of people right here in our country who have been vilified, abused, and denied their civil rights because of something written in the bible. Just go talk to them and you'll see what kind of damage happens. One of the posters on here shared a heartbreaking story that you might want to read before you dismiss the ill effects that religion can have.

tdram, thank you for contributing so much to this discussion. Which post/story are you referring to? I might have missed it.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You don't have to take it from me. There are plenty of people right here in our country who have been vilified, abused, and denied their civil rights because of something written in the bible. Just go talk to them and you'll see what kind of damage happens. One of the posters on here shared a heartbreaking story that you might want to read before you dismiss the ill effects that religion can have.

See previous response.

 

[tdram]

Edit: I've decide to show how particularly weak this response is.

1. You have said nothing to rebut my counter claims about war and religion
2. You abandoned that argument and started a new one about "harm being done in the name of religion" (red herring)
3. You present evidence to win your new argument...an argument no one was having.
4. You've presented a false dilemma, I either agree with you or I'm clueless.
5. the I'm "clueless" part is a personal insult/attack

Ook.. I'll counter your claim about war and religion. How about you show up in the middle of a religious war, proclaim yourself as the follower of the opposite religion, and see how long you survive!

 

[touchpause13]

This thread is very triggering for me. My little sister attempted suicide because my family disowned her for coming out as a lesbian saying she will burn in hell, it wasn't natural, life of sin, etc. I had to convince her not to drop out of school. I always support her and I'm there for her if she needs something. Honestly, religion does do some good for people but it also does a lot of bad, my personal experience with it have mostly been negative, I don't care too much for it.

So you and I haven't always seen eye to eye so I hope you don't take me as being disrespectful, but I'm sorry about what happened with your sister and you were very brave and kind to do what you have to help her. I've seen a lot of LGBTQ people (myself included) treated like crap by their religious parents and it has also significantly colored my views on religion. I can honestly say that if it weren't for friends and family who were there for me when my parents weren't, I don't know where I would be. So what you did for your sister is a tremendous act, even if you don't realize it.

 

[tdram]

See previous response.

Yeah this war has nothing to do with religion.

Sarcasm obviously, his entire speech is about religion and killing in the name of god.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Ook.. I'll counter your claim about war and religion. How about you show up in the middle of a religious war, proclaim yourself as the follower of the opposite religion, and see how long you survive!

I know the argument is over when the logical fallacies are the only consistent theme.

 

[tdram]

I know the argument is over when the logical fallacies are the only consistent theme.

Yeah, logical fallacy indeed. A war being fought on the basis of differences in religious belief has nothing to do with religion. Definitely a logical fallacy there.

Don't have any more time to waste with you. Ignored.

 

[pilotjoe]

None of those studies show that religion is actually bad for people though, that it makes them less happy, healthy, emotionally stable, or likely to exhibit antisocial behavior. Whether or not your colleagues or patients believe in a creator or not and how old they believe the earth is are both irrelevant to their health and the practice of medicine.

I take exception with particular individuals and groups that might not be able to practice medicine in a manner that respects the beliefs or lack thereof of patients, however, such as Christians that refuse to prescribe necessary birth control- medicine should be practiced in a neutral manner with regard to the faith of the practitioner. (Hence my chagrin with LUCOM)

The fact that the majority of Americans believe the world was created in six days (God rested on the seventh because he was tired? lol) is very bad for people. Like the third source said, the majority of Americans believe biblical stories are LITERAL TRUTH. You do not see a problem that this can have on people who already think irrationally (a man being swallowed by a whale and lives, Abraham nearly killing his son, kill adulterers, etc.)?

For the sake of argument, let's assume your sources are correct. The "fact" that something might have positive effects does not make it true. Santa Clause is something a lot of parents use to make their children behave, but I assume you don't believe in him. Alas, my original intent was not to debate with you, it was to encourage @AnonymousMed to form a secular group at his/her school. Good luck to everyone about to start the new year of school or who have already begun their rotations.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Yeah, logical fallacy indeed. A war being fought on the basis of differences in religious belief has nothing to do with religion. Definitely a logical fallacy there.

Don't have any more time to waste with you. Ignored.

Nice strawman. Not only did I say "wars have nothing to do with religion" but I also said that I "hate roads" I guess.
The only thing worse than dumbing down your own positions is dumbing down the positions of others.

 

[AnonymousMed]

Ok, to steer this thread back in the right direction...

If I were to, hypothetically speaking, start a secular/humanist medical student group at my school, what are your thoughts on good starting points for topics of discussion?

Clearly, based on the responses and emotions expressed in this thread, this is an issue worthy of intellectual discussion.

 

[DokterMom]

Even though I'm not at all convinced that organized religion is an overwhelmingly good thing, I do have to admit that I believe many wars fought "In the name of God / Allah" etc. are often not actually about religion even though they say they are.

Why? Because fighting someone for power, resources or territory is perceived as less noble than fighting for God. After all, If I'm fighting for territory or resources that aren't rightfully mine, that makes me thieving. If it's for power, then I'm a megalomaniac. But if I do it for God -- well, then I'm a hero.

 

[tdram]

Even though I'm not at all convinced that organized religion is an overwhelmingly good thing, I do have to admit that I believe many wars fought "In the name of God / Allah" etc. are often not actually about religion even though they say they are.

Why? Because fighting someone for power, resources or territory is perceived as less noble than fighting for God. After all, If I'm fighting for territory or resources that aren't rightfully mine, that makes me thieving. If it's for power, then I'm a megalomaniac. But if I do it for God -- well, then I'm a hero.

Maybe for the leaders of the wars, but the people actually fighting get none of that power or money. They're doing it for God. Religion makes this possible. A truly peaceful religion wouldn't allow its followers to fight for any reason, much less killing in the name of God.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gpbgy1dyM...9JEF0/s1600/behead-those-who-insult-islam.jpg

 

[DokterMom]

Ok, to steer this thread back in the right direction...

If I were to, hypothetically speaking, start a secular/humanist medical student group at my school, what are your thoughts on good starting points for topics of discussion?

Clearly, based on the responses and emotions expressed in this thread, this is an issue worthy of intellectual discussion.

So back to the question at hand -- One of the issues I would suggest is how to respond when a patient asks you to pray with him/herself. Also, how to answer a direct question about faith.

 

[tdram]

So back to the question at hand -- One of the issues I would suggest is how to respond when a patient asks you to pray with him/herself. Also, how to answer a direct question about faith.

Also, how do you handle the situation where a patient clearly harbors hate towards you because of your beliefs. Although this has only happened to me once, I did run into a patient who sincerely believed that atheists were spawned from the devil, and I did not know how to handle that, being an atheist.

 

[pilotjoe]

You could do an "Ask an atheist" day where people at your school can learn more about why you/people in your secular group are atheists.
Discuss how to handle situations where patients ask beliefs.
Have atheist physicians give a presentation on their experiences in medicine.

 

[pilotjoe]

Also, how do you handle the situation where a patient clearly harbors hate towards you because of your beliefs. Although this has only happened to me once, I did run into a patient who sincerely believed that atheists were spawned from the devil, and I did not know how to handle that, being an atheist.

Probably because the devil didn't prepare you for that one, did he?

 

[tdram]

Probably because the devil didn't prepare you for that one, did he?

Yeah the devil totally hasn't been returning my calls or emails. dingus.

 

[pilotjoe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is a pretty neat study by a religious leaning foundation on the inefficacy of prayer in healing.

 

[tdram]

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

The more reflective will realize that this sign is doing exactly what it's pontificating not to do. Namely, pushing one's beliefs onto others, "in public".

 

[pilotjoe]

The more reflective will realize that this sign is doing exactly what it's pontificating not to do. Namely, pushing one's beliefs onto others.

Right, they are pushing their not having beliefs onto other people by saying it's ok to have beliefs and be proud of it.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Right, they are pushing their not having beliefs onto other people by saying it's ok to have beliefs and be proud of it.

Telling others what they should and shouldn't do with their beliefs, is expressing a belief.

Ex: "You shouldn't express your beliefs in public. "
That itself is a belief.

 

[pilotjoe]

.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Maybe for the leaders of the wars, but the people actually fighting get none of that power or money. They're doing it for God. Religion makes this possible. A truly peaceful religion wouldn't allow its followers to fight for any reason, much less killing in the name of God.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gpbgy1dyM...9JEF0/s1600/behead-those-who-insult-islam.jpg

They absolutely do share in the land, resources, and others spoils of war with the leaders. Soldiers must be paid somehow.

 

[tdram]

This thread is a perfect example of how divisive religion is, and we haven't even gotten into the discussions of one religion vs another, or one sect of a religion vs another sect. Please see the middle east for people literally tearing each other's heads off over which sect of Islam is the authentic one.

 

[tdram]

They absolutely do share in the land, resources, and others spoils of war with the leaders. Soldiers must be paid somehow.

Those are side effects. Their main goal, without a doubt, is to do what they've been told God wants from them - to eradicate the non-believers. This would explain why they exhibit the same tendencies even when there is no land or resources up to grab, such as killing a journalist on the streets of Denmark because he dared to write negative things about their god.

 

[Dave89]

If you're seriously going to argue with me that there isn't massive amounts of harm being done to people all around the world in the name of a religion, then I can't argue with you because you're clueless. Maybe you should talk to some gay people and see how much they've had to go through because religions think they're "sinners". Don't think money, land, or resources has anything to do with persecuting gays. Or some women who have had to live miserable lives thanks to Islamic law.

1. Not all religions are equal. I want to point out that Islam =/= Christianity - I'm sure you're aware of this, but it's something worth emphasizing.

2. "Persecuting" homosexuals has little, IMO, to do with religion. If you're talking about people being mean toward homosexuals, that's basically just people being uncomfortable with those different from themselves and acting on that. Note that I do not consider opposition to same-sex "marriage" to be persecution.

 

[tdram]

1. Not all religions are equal. I want to point out that Islam =/= Christianity - I'm sure you're aware of this, but it's something worth emphasizing.

2. "Persecuting" homosexuals has little, IMO, to do with religion. If you're talking about people being mean toward homosexuals, that's basically just people being uncomfortable with those different from themselves and acting on that. Note that I do not consider opposition to same-sex "marriage" to be persecution.

How about the homosexuals that have been beated, abused, and driven to commit suicide? What about the children who were disowned by their ultra-religious families for being gay? Is that not persecution in your opinion? Pretty much all of this is done by people who are upholding the principles of the bible which state that "homosexuality is a sin".

The justification for all of this always comes from the Bible or other religious text.

 

[Dave89]

How about the homosexuals that have been beated, abused, and driven to commit suicide? What about the children who were disowned by their ultra-religious families for being gay? Is that not persecution in your opinion? Pretty much all of this is done by people who are upholding the principles of the bible which state that "homosexuality is a sin".

I doubt this. Western teenagers who pick on homosexuals aren't doing it because they think God wishes them to do so. They do it because teenagers are jerks, and like picking on easy targets.

 

[tdram]

I doubt this. Western teenagers who pick on homosexuals aren't doing it because they think God wishes them to do so. They do it because teenagers are jerks, and like picking on easy targets.

I'm not talking about teenagers. I'm talking about grown adults who abuse and beat homosexuals while telling them they're going to "burn in hell" and "God Hates Fags". Parents who disown their children because their religion tells them homosexuality is wrong. You're telling me that has nothing to do with religion? You obviously have never lived in the deep south.

 

[tdram]

I doubt this. Western teenagers who pick on homosexuals aren't doing it because they think God wishes them to do so. They do it because teenagers are jerks, and like picking on easy targets.

Is this guy a teenager?

 

[tdram]

I doubt this. Western teenagers who pick on homosexuals aren't doing it because they think God wishes them to do so. They do it because teenagers are jerks, and like picking on easy targets.

How about this pastor's anti gay sermon?

http://www.dallasobserver.com/slideshow/baptist-pastors-anti-gay-sermon-draws-protest-184700/

or this one

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...des-from-a-christian-pastors-anti-gay-sermon/

or this one.. http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Members-stand-behind-pastor-who-gave-homophobic-sermon-152735295.html

or this one.. http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ep-them-from-church/politics/2011/10/03/27804

I just googled those in 30 seconds. I could find a dozen more if you wanted me to.

 

[tdram]

"A gay Tennessee couple was reportedly attacked — physically and verbally assaulted — by a Christian Pastor and his deacons to prevent the same-sex couple from entering the Pastor’s church. "

Why christians cannot be homosexuals : http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/39696-six-reasons-why-gays-can-t-be-christians

You really don't think any of this stuff influences people to attack gays?

 

[touchpause13]

@tdram post history is your friend. Dave does not give a single fuq about the LGBT community. Not worth arguing with him about it.

 

[tdram]

@tdram post history is your friend. Dave does not give a single fuq about the LGBT community. Not worth arguing with him about it.

I see, well I'm happy I at least gave it a shot. I wouldn't feel right otherwise. I can't believe after everything that's happened to the LGBT community someone can deny that religion, specifically christianity, was involved. It's like looking straight at the sun and saying it's night.

Does dave also deny the moon landing and the holocaust?

 

[touchpause13]

I see, well I'm happy I at least gave it a shot. I wouldn't feel right otherwise. I can't believe after everything that's happened to the LGBT community someone can deny that religion, specifically christianity, was involved. It's like looking straight at the sun and saying it's night.

He also believes some choice things about black folks that would go in that category as well. I've tried to reason with him from the LGBT perspective and it just ended up making me pissed off and grumpy so I thought I'd give you the knowledge that ur not gonna get thru to him.

 

[tdram]

He also believes some choice things about black folks that would go in that category as well. I've tried to reason with him from the LGBT perspective and it just ended up making me pissed off and grumpy so I thought I'd give you the knowledge that ur not gonna get thru to him.

I see, well I think I've made my point anyway. Hopefully others can see how wrong he is about the struggles of the LGBT community. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Mad Jack]

The fact that the majority of Americans believe the world was created in six days (God rested on the seventh because he was tired? lol) is very bad for people. Like the third source said, the majority of Americans believe biblical stories are LITERAL TRUTH. You do not see a problem that this can have on people who already think irrationally (a man being swallowed by a whale and lives, Abraham nearly killing his son, kill adulterers, etc.)?

For the sake of argument, let's assume your sources are correct. The "fact" that something might have positive effects does not make it true. Santa Clause is something a lot of parents use to make their children behave, but I assume you don't believe in him. Alas, my original intent was not to debate with you, it was to encourage @AnonymousMed to form a secular group at his/her school. Good luck to everyone about to start the new year of school or who have already begun their rotations.

It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. What matters is that it is generally a socially positive thing in average people's lives. There's a lot of times where you're not going to be able to do a damn thing to help a person in the hospital. They're just going to die and there's nothing you can do about it. You know what the only thing that seems to improve a great number of those people's outlook and mood when they're nearing the end like that? A visit from the chaplain. Even if it's all a fairy tale, those that are religious often find a great deal of peace from it in the end. And many find the strength to go through treatments that I wouldn't wish on myself or others, because they believe there's a higher power that's going to get them through no matter the odds. Faith is a thing that provides people with strength where otherwise there should be none, with hope when all hope is lost. I'm not an especially religious person myself, but I've seen the good that faith does for actual sick and dying people. I'm not going to judge the only thing that gives them hope and resilience.

Often, hope and happiness are far more important than the truth or evidence. So I guess at the end of the day I don't give a damn what people believe, so long as they're happy. Religion just serves, for many, as an extra set of social connections and an extra source of emotional strength in their lives. What the hell is wrong with that?

And so far as wars and the like, sure, there have been religious wars over the years. But, prior to now, there were no societies that were largely composed of atheists. The Chinese, Russians, and Germans have all had good runs of wiping out the religious in the name of fascism/communism though, and I predict there will be many more such events over the course of history. Not because atheists are evil, but because people will never stop fighting. You can change the players, the names, the nations, and the beliefs, but war... War never changes. It's not the religion that caused it, it's mankind's inherent nature that did.

 

[Dave89]

Is this guy a teenager?

I think that he and his ilk are sufficiently anti-social that they would be screaming obnoxious things whether they were religious or not.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

It's times like these that I miss that sdn emoticon where the smiley walks into the thread through a door, looks around, and walks backwards out the door. What happened here?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

It's times like these that I miss that sdn emoticon where the smiley walks into the thread through a door, looks around, and walks backwards out the door. What happened here?

 

[pilotjoe]

It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. What matters is that it is generally a socially positive thing in average people's lives. There's a lot of times where you're not going to be able to do a damn thing to help a person in the hospital. They're just going to die and there's nothing you can do about it. You know what the only thing that seems to improve a great number of those people's outlook and mood when they're nearing the end like that? A visit from the chaplain. Even if it's all a fairy tale, those that are religious often find a great deal of peace from it in the end. And many find the strength to go through treatments that I wouldn't wish on myself or others, because they believe there's a higher power that's going to get them through no matter the odds. Faith is a thing that provides people with strength where otherwise there should be none, with hope when all hope is lost. I'm not an especially religious person myself, but I've seen the good that faith does for actual sick and dying people. I'm not going to judge the only thing that gives them hope and resilience.

Often, hope and happiness are far more important than the truth or evidence. So I guess at the end of the day I don't give a damn what people believe, so long as they're happy. Religion just serves, for many, as an extra set of social connections and an extra source of emotional strength in their lives. What the hell is wrong with that?

And so far as wars and the like, sure, there have been religious wars over the years. But, prior to now, there were no societies that were largely composed of atheists. The Chinese, Russians, and Germans have all had good runs of wiping out the religious in the name of fascism/communism though, and I predict there will be many more such events over the course of history. Not because atheists are evil, but because people will never stop fighting. You can change the players, the names, the nations, and the beliefs, but war... War never changes. It's not the religion that caused it, it's mankind's inherent nature that did.

I think you missed my post where I said I would certainly pray with those who asked. I would not dare get into a discussion with a patient on why I think their faith is irrational (pretty much the definition of faith). I respect that it does give comfort to many, but living a life you can be proud of (my mantra) is what will give me comfort on my death bed. You do not need to have faith for comfort.

As to Germany, that was Catholics killing Jews (Hitler was raised Catholic, and the most of the soldiers were Catholic). And also note, the others did not kill in the "name" of atheism, they killed in the name of their perverse forms of communism/fascism. If the ideas of rational thought, unending questioning, independence, morality based on inherent good (not based on archaic documents that are really rather demonstrate the opposite of morality), and humanism--ideas behind the "New Atheist" movement (I'm not sure what is so new besides more people coming out about being atheistic)--I think that there would be quite the pendulum swing away from the characteristics in man that lead us to war. Characteristics such as blind obedience and closed-mindedness.