Accidentally sent inappropriate email to program

[AlbinoHawk DO]

An entire IM program got shut down because of sexual harassment from a resident (male) to other residents and students, while the PD (female) brushed it under the rug

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[emergentmd]

Master Troll job. Can't believe so many have fallen for it. Bravo, great job. If I am wrong, OP has more things to worry about than being a doctor or finishing residency.

 

[lal4life]

Master Troll job. Can't believe so many have fallen for it. Bravo, great job. If I am wrong, OP has more things to worry about than being a doctor or finishing residency.

I think we all have those same thoughts. The advice was given on the off chance this was real.

I rotated at a gen surg program as a med student. They had 10 total spots, but had fitted 3 of them so they were down to 7. Both seniors and an intern got fired. The intern, I was told, just read books at night while on call and ignored all the pages he got, and was generally abrasive without any idea of what a social filter is. I’m not quite sure why the senior residents were fired, but heard from several independent sources that there were residents having affairs with the attendings. I can only imagine that other things were occurring on top of that that led to their dismissals.

 

[ScubaV]

Pretty entertaining work of fiction. Classic troll elements: high stakes scenario with regular updates that only ratchet up the tension, mixed mildly abrasive and clueless OP personality that elicits a strong emotional reaction, directed replies to nearly everything except questions of authenticity, and a denouement that wraps up the story in a plausible, if somewhat unsatisfying way that leaves an opening for potential followup. Quite well done.

Almost as entertaining was all the responses that really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and pretend it was legit even though the scenario is so ridiculous even hypothetical advice to other onlookers is almost useless. Essentially supporting characters in the broader meta story. Bravo!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Pretty entertaining work of fiction. Classic troll elements: high stakes scenario with regular updates that only ratchet up the tension, mixed mildly abrasive and clueless OP personality that elicits a strong emotional reaction, directed replies to nearly everything except questions of authenticity, and a denouement that wraps up the story in a plausible, if somewhat unsatisfying way that leaves an opening for potential followup. Quite well done.

Almost as entertaining was all the responses that really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and pretend it was legit even though the scenario is so ridiculous even hypothetical advice to other onlookers is almost useless. Essentially supporting characters in the broader meta story. Bravo!

And somehow even a dentist got dragged into this...

Big Hoss

 

[gyngyn]

So are we all just giving OP “well at least I didn’t commit [insert actual crime here]” stories now?

Being compared to these can give OP the order of magnitude of their behaviors.

 

[emergentmd]

Funny thing about this thread is Everyone is giving him advice for solving his problems. No advice from me. You are an adult, this is not rocket science, solve this yourself. If you are a moral/mature person, you will do the right thing. If you are not, then you will do it your way anyhow.

OP is not a 16 yr old kid. You are an adult. I will not give advice to an adult for obvious solutions.

Let me start a thread. I killed someone, should I tell the police. Seriously?

 

[guytakingboards]

Funny thing about this thread is Everyone is giving him advice for solving his problems. No advice from me. You are an adult, this is not rocket science, solve this yourself. If you are a moral/mature person, you will do the right thing. If you are not, then you will do it your way anyhow.

OP is not a 16 yr old kid. You are an adult. I will not give advice to an adult for obvious solutions.

Let me start a thread. I killed someone, should I tell the police. Seriously?

I disagree with this take. There are way too many people in med school and residency without a conception of how things work in the real world. What's acceptable and what's not in a job environment. It doesn't mean they're fundamentally immoral people; they just need experience and in some cases guidance.

The phrase I heard a lot was "delayed adolescence".

 

[emergentmd]

There are way too many people in med school and residency without a conception of how things work in the real world.

We just see things differently. This is not a gray area questions. This is an obvious one and if he really needs to ask, then he does not have the maturity to be an adult less a doc. I just don't have the patience to teach late 20's how to function as an adult.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Funny thing about this thread is Everyone is giving him advice for solving his problems. No advice from me. You are an adult, this is not rocket science, solve this yourself. If you are a moral/mature person, you will do the right thing. If you are not, then you will do it your way anyhow.

OP is not a 16 yr old kid. You are an adult. I will not give advice to an adult for obvious solutions.

Let me start a thread. I killed someone, should I tell the police. Seriously?

You do realize that SDN's purpose is to help pre-meds and med students become doctors, right? Asking for advice to help with that goal is literally what the website was founded for.

 

[candbgirl]

No, we are entertaining ourselves until OP updates us on the phone call

Speaking of that phone call- wasn’t it supposed to happen sometime during this past week? OP did you get a call? What happened?

 

[Mad Jack]

I also fell down my list during residency match day. I was grateful for the match but also hesitant of going there. I've since finished residency and would say that I would 100% rank them #1 even if mass general offered me a spot. I've heard multiple people with similar stories

I sincerely think this is a troll post. Nobody "accidentally" sends to their program that e-mail. Nobody gets all the advice they did here and then email saying "got hacked yo!" and proceeds to ignore a meeting. In the 0.0001% chance this is real, this dude should be dismissed. The only chance this guy has to not be fired would be to come out entirely clean and beg for forgiveness. Even then, they should expect to get all the scut work and be on call every other day and never take a single vacation

I know that feel. I felt like my life was over on match day. My PD, it turned out, was amazing. The program had its problems but were it not for certain leadership elements at the institutional level, knowing what I knew at the end I would have ranked it much higher. I ended up where I needed to be, and developed a strong leadership abilities and resolve which likely would not have been required had I ended up elsewhere

 

[Mad Jack]

Let’s lock this thread please, now we know this has run its course whether troll (likely) or not (lying about details that people have tried to give advice based upon said details

There are things to be learned even from troll threads

 

[emergentmd]

You do realize that SDN's purpose is to help pre-meds and med students become doctors, right? Asking for advice to help with that goal is literally what the website was founded for.

You are missing the point. Asking a question/advice is not the issue. Its the constant rebuttal that not only shows trollism but also borderlines on "help me be an adult". OP is at worse mid/late 20's, this is not a place to ask for advice on growing up.

Let me summarize this troll
I made a childish mistake, what should I do? People give mature advice
I didn't listen and made another childish mistake by faking an email? People give mature advice
They want to meet to discuss, I should just ignore the email? People give mature advice.

This is not asking for advice, OP is a troll or asking how to make adult decisions. But if you want to continue to feed go ahead. I have no advice on how to be an adult, go ask your mom.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You are missing the point. Asking a question/advice is not the issue. Its the constant rebuttal that not only shows trollism but also borderlines on "help me be an adult". OP is at worse mid/late 20's, this is not a place to ask for advice on growing up.

Let me summarize this troll
I made a childish mistake, what should I do? People give mature advice
I didn't listen and made another childish mistake by faking an email? People give mature advice
They want to meet to discuss, I should just ignore the email? People give mature advice.

This is not asking for advice, OP is a troll or asking how to make adult decisions. But if you want to continue to feed go ahead. I have no advice on how to be an adult, go ask your mom.

As several other posters who work in med school admissions have said, this is not the weirdest thing they've ever seen. Hey, we fired an intern for my program in my second year and you wouldn't believe the stuff this guy did if I told you.

Now I won't disagree that this whole situation, if true, shows a shocking lag of maturity. But, I think you'd be surprised just how often that's an issue in medical school. We take students who have never had a real job, and often don't have much personal growth at the undergrad level due to the constant studying that many of them do. You can't be surprised that they haven't matured as well as we could hope.

 

[pierty]

As several other posters who work in med school admissions have said, this is not the weirdest thing they've ever seen. Hey, we fired an intern for my program in my second year and you wouldn't believe the stuff this guy did if I told you.

Now I won't disagree that this whole situation, if true, shows a shocking lag of maturity. But, I think you'd be surprised just how often that's an issue in medical school. We take students who have never had a real job, and often don't have much personal growth at the undergrad level due to the constant studying that many of them do. You can't be surprised that they haven't matured as well as we could hope.

Agreed. The recent debacle involving med students assaulting bar tenders and trashing an art venue (twice) is a good reminder of the severe lack of judgement (and in that case, morality) that many have in the field, especially early on.

Wisdom is not intelligence. Often, they are separately acquired.

 

[Qpworueury]

So an update: Talked to the PD yesterday. We spoken for a good 40 minutes. My current PD wanted me to take the phone call in their office so that for sure it wouldn't me missed, so we called together and then they left the room.

So I met the PD before on interview day, and they was fairly nice. Didn't notice anything immediately different in their tone. The PD/PC reintroduced themselves to me, and also said they had a transcriber present for the entirety of the conversation. Not sure the purpose

They opened with I'm not sure if you know why we're chatting, but on x day we received this email from you. We weren't sure what to make of it, so we wanted to reach out to you but we couldn't get a hold of you, so we contacted your program and arranged this phone call. They read the email I wrote to me. Before they went further, they wanted to hear my thoughts.

I opened my portion of the conversation, and I told them the whole story. I apologized, I said I was upset that I didn't match higher on my list etc. I never met for that email to be sent. I also talked about the whole "I was hacked thing" and apologize for that as well. I had a reminder sheet next to me that my family and I came up with on thing to say and things not say.

They said we appreciated hearing that from me. They said in all honesty, we've never been in that situation before. Most applicants they get are happy to go there; however, when looking at my application, they were surprised that I matched here as "it didn't match the typical applicant profile" they match here. They said that I impressed them on interview day, an basically told me where they ranked me. They said things put a huge damper in their excitement. They kinda made me feel bad and said we passed up a lot of other people for you because of XYZ on your applicantion.

They said they wouldn't lie to me, they were pretty disappointed by the email. The chair was especially insulted, and thought it was an insult to the to the department and the staff and the community.

However, they said they appreciated talking to my PD. From my interpretation, my current PD really stated that I was hardworking, and excellent intern and had good character thus far. It sounded like they vouged for me

All things considered, despite this situation they said considering my apology today, current performance as an intern, excelling in med school prior track record pointing to some notable undergrada and medical school recognitions, they have a good amount of evidence to suggest that this action was not a true reflection on my character and still think they can help me be an excellent physician.

I was direct, and asked them if my job at this place is jeopardy because of this, they said there's nothing here to show us this will be a persistent pattern of behavior, so we don't plan to go down that route

They then dipped further into my concerns listed in the email, and to several points I made in the email, that we offer x, y, z maybe that would help. Seemed like they were trying to sell the program to me here.

There was one caveat. The chair just has to agree. I guess the chair was left speechless for days, and felt more of a personal attack go then. I guess the chairs boss was also made aware of this was well. Regardless At the end of the meeting, they're going to talk to over with the chair of the department and see if they need to have that formal meeting or not. The reason why they did this sooner was 100% because of what my current PD told them about my performance thus far.
So the final close to this will either be 1) chair agrees, no additional action 2) call with chair alone just like yesterday 3) meeting as scheduled as before. They'll tell me after the new year.

 

[DO2015CA]

So an update: Talked to the PD yesterday. We spoken for a good 40 minutes. My current PD wanted me to take the phone call in their office so that for sure it wouldn't me missed, so we called together and then they left the room.

So I met the PD before on interview day, and they was fairly nice. Didn't notice anything immediately different in their tone. The PD/PC reintroduced themselves to me, and also said they had a transcriber present for the entirety of the conversation. Not sure the purpose

They opened with I'm not sure if you know why we're chatting, but on x day we received this email from you. We weren't sure what to make of it, so we wanted to reach out to you but we couldn't get a hold of you, so we contacted your program and arranged this phone call. They read the email I wrote to me. Before they went further, they wanted to hear my thoughts.

I opened my portion of the conversation, and I told them the whole story. I apologized, I said I was upset that I didn't match higher on my list etc. I never met for that email to be sent. I also talked about the whole "I was hacked thing" and apologize for that as well. I had a reminder sheet next to me that my family and I came up with on thing to say and things not say.

They said we appreciated hearing that from me. They said in all honesty, we've never been in that situation before. Most applicants they get are happy to go there; however, when looking at my application, they were surprised that I matched here as "it didn't match the typical applicant profile" they match here. They said that I impressed them on interview day, an basically told me where they ranked me. They said things put a huge damper in their excitement. They kinda made me feel bad and said we passed up a lot of other people for you because of XYZ on your applicantion.

They said they wouldn't lie to me, they were pretty disappointed by the email. The chair was especially insulted, and thought it was an insult to the to the department and the staff and the community.

However, they said they appreciated talking to my PD. From my interpretation, my current PD really stated that I was hardworking, and excellent intern and had good character thus far. It sounded like they vouged for me

All things considered, despite this situation they said considering my apology today, current performance as an intern, excelling in med school prior track record pointing to some notable undergrada and medical school recognitions, they have a good amount of evidence to suggest that this action was not a true reflection on my character and still think they can help me be an excellent physician.

I was direct, and asked them if my job at this place is jeopardy because of this, they said there's nothing here to show us this will be a persistent pattern of behavior, so we don't plan to go down that route

They then dipped further into my concerns listed in the email, and to several points I made in the email, that we offer x, y, z maybe that would help. Seemed like they were trying to sell the program to me here.

There was one caveat. The chair just has to agree. I guess the chair was left speechless for days, and felt more of a personal attack go then. I guess the chairs boss was also made aware of this was well. Regardless At the end of the meeting, they're going to talk to over with the chair of the department and see if they need to have that formal meeting or not. The reason why they did this sooner was 100% because of what my current PD told them about my performance thus far.
So the final close to this will either be 1) chair agrees, no additional action 2) call with chair alone just like yesterday 3) meeting as scheduled as before. They'll tell me after the new year.

This actually sounds plausible. Sounds like you learned something

 

[ACSurgeon]

So an update: Talked to the PD yesterday. We spoken for a good 40 minutes. My current PD wanted me to take the phone call in their office so that for sure it wouldn't me missed, so we called together and then they left the room.

So I met the PD before on interview day, and they was fairly nice. Didn't notice anything immediately different in their tone. The PD/PC reintroduced themselves to me, and also said they had a transcriber present for the entirety of the conversation. Not sure the purpose

They opened with I'm not sure if you know why we're chatting, but on x day we received this email from you. We weren't sure what to make of it, so we wanted to reach out to you but we couldn't get a hold of you, so we contacted your program and arranged this phone call. They read the email I wrote to me. Before they went further, they wanted to hear my thoughts.

I opened my portion of the conversation, and I told them the whole story. I apologized, I said I was upset that I didn't match higher on my list etc. I never met for that email to be sent. I also talked about the whole "I was hacked thing" and apologize for that as well. I had a reminder sheet next to me that my family and I came up with on thing to say and things not say.

They said we appreciated hearing that from me. They said in all honesty, we've never been in that situation before. Most applicants they get are happy to go there; however, when looking at my application, they were surprised that I matched here as "it didn't match the typical applicant profile" they match here. They said that I impressed them on interview day, an basically told me where they ranked me. They said things put a huge damper in their excitement. They kinda made me feel bad and said we passed up a lot of other people for you because of XYZ on your applicantion.

They said they wouldn't lie to me, they were pretty disappointed by the email. The chair was especially insulted, and thought it was an insult to the to the department and the staff and the community.

However, they said they appreciated talking to my PD. From my interpretation, my current PD really stated that I was hardworking, and excellent intern and had good character thus far. It sounded like they vouged for me

All things considered, despite this situation they said considering my apology today, current performance as an intern, excelling in med school prior track record pointing to some notable undergrada and medical school recognitions, they have a good amount of evidence to suggest that this action was not a true reflection on my character and still think they can help me be an excellent physician.

I was direct, and asked them if my job at this place is jeopardy because of this, they said there's nothing here to show us this will be a persistent pattern of behavior, so we don't plan to go down that route

They then dipped further into my concerns listed in the email, and to several points I made in the email, that we offer x, y, z maybe that would help. Seemed like they were trying to sell the program to me here.

There was one caveat. The chair just has to agree. I guess the chair was left speechless for days, and felt more of a personal attack go then. I guess the chairs boss was also made aware of this was well. Regardless At the end of the meeting, they're going to talk to over with the chair of the department and see if they need to have that formal meeting or not. The reason why they did this sooner was 100% because of what my current PD told them about my performance thus far.
So the final close to this will either be 1) chair agrees, no additional action 2) call with chair alone just like yesterday 3) meeting as scheduled as before. They'll tell me after the new year.

Even if at the end of this they tell you that your job is not in jeopardy and you’re starting fresh like everyone else, you’d be smart to assume you have to keep a cleaner record than the rest of residents. No matter what they say, you’ll have to be more careful and you better believe any big mess up will be treated much more harshly.

 

[drthedude]

They kinda made me feel bad and said we passed up a lot of other people for you because of XYZ on your applicantion.

You sent an email that basically destroyed their whole program, you're supposed to feel bad. glad you learned something

 

[Rapsidy]

Transcriber was likely present for at least 2 reasons. One would be to give the chair an exact copy of the conversation for review. The other reason would be to start a paper trail in case legal needs to get involved, likely it’s both. Hold your head up and try to accept the outcome no matter what they decide.

Regardless you’ll have at minimum 45 days to prove to them that you are going to be a resident they are happy to have in their program, and whatever XYZ was that they saw in you make sure it’s on full display going forward.

 

[guytakingboards]

So an update: Talked to the PD yesterday. We spoken for a good 40 minutes. My current PD wanted me to take the phone call in their office so that for sure it wouldn't me missed, so we called together and then they left the room.

So I met the PD before on interview day, and they was fairly nice. Didn't notice anything immediately different in their tone. The PD/PC reintroduced themselves to me, and also said they had a transcriber present for the entirety of the conversation. Not sure the purpose

They opened with I'm not sure if you know why we're chatting, but on x day we received this email from you. We weren't sure what to make of it, so we wanted to reach out to you but we couldn't get a hold of you, so we contacted your program and arranged this phone call. They read the email I wrote to me. Before they went further, they wanted to hear my thoughts.

I opened my portion of the conversation, and I told them the whole story. I apologized, I said I was upset that I didn't match higher on my list etc. I never met for that email to be sent. I also talked about the whole "I was hacked thing" and apologize for that as well. I had a reminder sheet next to me that my family and I came up with on thing to say and things not say.

They said we appreciated hearing that from me. They said in all honesty, we've never been in that situation before. Most applicants they get are happy to go there; however, when looking at my application, they were surprised that I matched here as "it didn't match the typical applicant profile" they match here. They said that I impressed them on interview day, an basically told me where they ranked me. They said things put a huge damper in their excitement. They kinda made me feel bad and said we passed up a lot of other people for you because of XYZ on your applicantion.

They said they wouldn't lie to me, they were pretty disappointed by the email. The chair was especially insulted, and thought it was an insult to the to the department and the staff and the community.

However, they said they appreciated talking to my PD. From my interpretation, my current PD really stated that I was hardworking, and excellent intern and had good character thus far. It sounded like they vouged for me

All things considered, despite this situation they said considering my apology today, current performance as an intern, excelling in med school prior track record pointing to some notable undergrada and medical school recognitions, they have a good amount of evidence to suggest that this action was not a true reflection on my character and still think they can help me be an excellent physician.

I was direct, and asked them if my job at this place is jeopardy because of this, they said there's nothing here to show us this will be a persistent pattern of behavior, so we don't plan to go down that route

They then dipped further into my concerns listed in the email, and to several points I made in the email, that we offer x, y, z maybe that would help. Seemed like they were trying to sell the program to me here.

There was one caveat. The chair just has to agree. I guess the chair was left speechless for days, and felt more of a personal attack go then. I guess the chairs boss was also made aware of this was well. Regardless At the end of the meeting, they're going to talk to over with the chair of the department and see if they need to have that formal meeting or not. The reason why they did this sooner was 100% because of what my current PD told them about my performance thus far.
So the final close to this will either be 1) chair agrees, no additional action 2) call with chair alone just like yesterday 3) meeting as scheduled as before. They'll tell me after the new year.

Overall, sounds like a better first contact than it could have been. That's a positive. Consider yourself lucky it wasn't hostile from the start and that the PD/PC weren't as openly upset as the chair appears to be.

For clarification on some points:
- Having a transcriber there means they wanted a formal paper trail of that encounter. If this encounter had also been negative, it would have been another data point used as proof to justify your termination. OR if you behavior is **** in the future they can use this encounter to say "we talked to [OP] and we thought they understood their position, but apparently not". Either way a program wanting a formal record your interactions means they're covering their ass if they need to do something later.

- Also, the paper trail breaks both ways. They appeared to have carefully said everything important to cover their own asses: 1) express their own disappointment 2) mention that they did their due diligence in evaluating the situation 3) that they wouldn't hold this against you 4) that they are even trying to address your concerns. --- basically if/when a GME office reviews this case they're gonna see that the program said and did all the right things.

-No, they're not selling you on anything. You are already matched there. They're either defending themselves and/or positioning themselves as an open-minded group willing to work with you (more CYA).

In any event, you're gonna be under the magnifying glass from day 1 at that program.

 

[sylvanthus]

Even if at the end of this they tell you that your job is not in jeopardy and you’re starting fresh like everyone else, you’d be smart to assume you have to keep a cleaner record than the rest of residents. No matter what they say, you’ll have to be more careful and you better believe any big mess up will be treated much more harshly.

Yup gonna be on super secret probation the whole time. Assume everything you do wrong is being documented. Acca ackward.

 

[Qpworueury]

Overall, sounds like a better first contact than it could have been. That's a positive. Consider yourself lucky it wasn't hostile from the start and that the PD/PC weren't as openly upset as the chair appears to be.

For clarification on some points:
- Having a transcriber there means they wanted a formal paper trail of that encounter. If this encounter had also been negative, it would have been another data point used as proof to justify your termination. OR if you behavior is **** in the future they can use this encounter to say "we talked to [OP] and we thought they understood their position, but apparently not". Either way a program wanting a formal record your interactions means they're covering their ass if they need to do something later.

- Also, the paper trail breaks both ways. They appeared to have carefully said everything important to cover their own asses: 1) express their own disappointment 2) mention that they did their due diligence in evaluating the situation 3) that they wouldn't hold this against you 4) that they are even trying to address your concerns. --- basically if/when a GME office reviews this case they're gonna see that the program said all the right things.

-No, they're not selling you on anything. You are already matched there. They're either defending themselves and/or positioning themselves as an open-minded group willing to work with you (more CYA).

In any event, you're gonna be under the magnifying glass from day 1 at that program.

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program. I heard it's a hassle for programs to fill if a good resident leaves.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program.

You don’t actually believe that do you?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program. I heard it's a hassle for programs to fill if a good resident leaves.

You seriously can't be this dense. How can you imagine they are still trying to sell you the program? They had someone transcribe the meeting and told you the chair wants your head in a bucket. They chose to say all the safe and good things, so if there's action, you can never claim that this "mistake" happened and you weren't given a chance despite remorse. You're in deeper **** than you can imagine. Any **** up and you will be gone in a second

 

[lal4life]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program. I heard it's a hassle for programs to fill if a good resident leaves.

Oh yeah, like the people above said, you don’t have a clean slate at your program. It’s even likely that all of your attendings will be given a heads up for you as a potential “problem resident” for each of your rotations. They have a transcript of your conversation and a paper trail of your emails. And, if they identify you in this thread, posts into lack of awareness and insight as well as poor decision making.

Even if all works out well before you start, you’ll be under scrutiny for every little mistake. Again, at no fault to your program. Your good track record in need school and intern year will be reset to nothing and you’ll likely be starting behind the line.

But the good news (again assuming this is all true, which we all still have our doubts) is that you’re heading in the right direction at this point. Congrats on getting it heading down the right road. Now keep it going!

 

[sylvanthus]

You don’t actually believe that do you?

I dont think they have the insight or wisdom to understand and I highly doubt they make it through the program.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I dont think they have the insight or wisdom to understand and I highly doubt they make it through the program.

Yea I’m not seeing how OP could possibly think they’d want to sell him on the program after everything that’s happened 💀. Like what? He’s got a very high opinion of himself is the vibe that I’m getting. I don’t think any program would be chasing down a seemingly malignant resident to stay in their program even with good remarks from the previous PD regardless of if it might cause them to have to fill the spot so they’re not short handed…

 

[ortnakas]

Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

Is there a global shortage of file folders I’m not aware of?
There’s literally nothing stopping them from opening your records 6 months early.

 

[OraclePL]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program. I heard it's a hassle for programs to fill if a good resident leaves.

Don't be naive. Did they take you at your word when you said you were hacked?

Despite your screwups, they're trying to give you chance. It's a huge hassle to replace a resident.

we had someone like this. There were several people in the department that never forgot. it was also emblematic of their overall attitude issues throughout residency, which just added to the reasons people disliked that person. you have to view this as a mistake on your part, own up to your own flaws in judgment, and be careful to be on your best behavior moving forward. They don’t have to dismiss you outright in order to hurt your career in other subtle ways.

 

[guytakingboards]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

The vibe I got was that they were more worried that I would try to leave the program midway though or something when they tried to up play the program. I heard it's a hassle for programs to fill if a good resident leaves.

What you think a "formal record" entails? They have the original email, they have your cover up email, and now they have a transcribed record of your double ****-up acknowledgement and apology. All digitalized, no file folder in a cabinet required. Considering that no one deletes emails of importance these days, consider that part of your permanent record.

And your interpretation of the end game here is also flawed at best. Your actions will **never** be forgotten by your program.... for as long or as short as you're in the program..... both officially and informally.

Your take-home from the encounter is just ridiculous. They're not selling you on the program in hopes of keeping you from transferring. They are dotting their i's and crossing their t's on the procedure so you can't claim you got a raw deal later. You should be very worried about that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are no less likely to be fired at the first chance than you were two days ago.

 

[ACSurgeon]

What you think a "formal record" entails? They have the original email, they have your cover up email, and now they have a transcribed record of your double ****-up acknowledgement and apology. All digitalized, no file folder in a cabinet required. Considering that no one deletes emails of importance these days, consider that part of your permanent record.

And your interpretation of the end game here is also flawed at best. Your actions will **never** be forgotten by your program.... for as long or as short as you're in the program..... both officially and informally.

Your take-home from the encounter is just ridiculous. They're not selling you on the program in hopes of keeping you from transferring. They are dotting their i's and crossing their t's on the procedure so you can't claim you got a raw deal later. You should be very worried about that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are no less likely to be fired at the first chance than you were two days ago.

At some point being paranoid and so worried about being back fired. A little confidence or ignorance might help get a troubled resident through training too.

I think OP should be cautious but not paranoid. Don’t assume your program is dying to keep you, but don’t assume they’re waiting to fire you either.

OP should start training feeing like they’re under the microscope, work hard and keep their head down for the first year or two if not their entire training period. But it can be a good training experience nonetheless

 

[guytakingboards]

At some point being paranoid and so worried about being back fired. A little confidence or ignorance might help get a troubled resident through training too.

I think OP should be cautious but not paranoid. Don’t assume your program is dying to keep you, but don’t assume they’re waiting to fire you either.

OP should start training feeing like they’re under the microscope, work hard and keep their head down for the first year or two if not their entire training period. But it can be a good training experience nonetheless

Lol. I agree with you that paranoia isn't good either but the OP seems way in the other direction right now. Little hyperbole to get the point across.

Yes he can potentially overcome this episode, but he too needs to dot his i's and cross his t's.

 

[Qpworueury]

You seriously can't be this dumb. They had someone transcribe the meeting and told you the chair wants your head in a bucket. They chose to say all the safe and good things, so if there's action, you can never claim that this "mistake" happened and you weren't given a chance despite remorse. You're in deeper **** that you can imagine. Any **** up and you will be gone in a second

I'm not stupid. I know I'll have to prove myself going in. If I've done well before, I can do well here. I just don't quite understand what the meeting of the chair will signify and how things differ in my standing there if I 1) don't have to meet with the chair, 2) do have to meet with the chair or 3) meeting as previously scheduled.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I'm not stupid. I know I'll have to prove myself going in. If I've done well before, I can do well here. I just don't quite understand what the meeting of the chair will signify and how things differ in my standing there if I 1) don't have to meet with the chair, 2) do have to meet with the chair or 3) meeting as previously scheduled.

These meetings can be part of due process. So that if at some point they decide to terminate you they have record that due process was had. Or, these meetings can be conducted to let you know how serious things are and make sure you feel the heat.

From what you’ve e said, it seems like you’re being given a real chance by the program to succeed. Not really a clean slate but probably as close as you can be with everything that has happened.

Take this opportunity. Work hard and get to the finish line.

 

[guytakingboards]

I'm not stupid. I know I'll have to prove myself going in. If I've done well before, I can do well here. I just don't quite understand what the meeting of the chair will signify and how things differ in my standing there if I 1) don't have to meet with the chair, 2) do have to meet with the chair or 3) meeting as previously scheduled.

Meeting with the chair is neither a good nor bad thing to you at this point. All you know is that the PD said the chair was really mad at the things in your email.

If you don't meet with him, it doesn't mean everything is water under the bridge. It could just mean he isn't ready or doesn't want to deal with you.

If you do meet with him: it gives you the chance to apologize to him personally but you could also do yourself some harm. As ACSurgeon mentioned, a meeting with the chair could just be due process. That's neither good nor bad at this point. It's just procedure.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm not stupid. I know I'll have to prove myself going in. If I've done well before, I can do well here. I just don't quite understand what the meeting of the chair will signify and how things differ in my standing there if I 1) don't have to meet with the chair, 2) do have to meet with the chair or 3) meeting as previously scheduled.

I more or less agree with everyone else, I think these outcomes are functionally similar. Regardless of whether you have to have additional meetings to prove yourself to the chair, you will have a lot of people watching you when you start regardless of whether anything is “officially” on your record.

If it felt like they were “selling” you on the program, I suppose in a sense that is likely true. They want you to look on the bright side of what their program has to offer you, because by a wide, wide margin the easiest outcome for all involved (especially you) is for you to forget everything you put in that email, be an exemplary resident who never complains, and that leadership never has to worry about again. Anything else is going to be unpleasant and create a whole lot of work for a lot of people at the program. They are invested in trying to help you be happy, and in turn you should be invested in trying to make yourself happy in the situation that you are in.

 

[emergentmd]

Wow this keeps getting better. Don't you think someone at the program is reading this thread and just shaking their heads.

This must be the biggest troll that everyone is continuing to give advice. Its starting to become comical.

if this by the slightest is not a troll, someone from the program has sent this link to the chair and if I were the chair, terminate you.

They were trying to sell you on the program? WTH? Bravo again I say. This is starting to read like a best seller.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm not stupid. I know I'll have to prove myself going in. If I've done well before, I can do well here. I just don't quite understand what the meeting of the chair will signify and how things differ in my standing there if I 1) don't have to meet with the chair, 2) do have to meet with the chair or 3) meeting as previously scheduled.

The chair will listen to the conversation or read the transcript to see if you kissed enough butt so that he won't bother with you, or he will not okay with it and expect you to kiss his ass directly. I don't think they will fire you unless you say something stupid from now onward, but you do definitely have an entire satellite following your every move, at least during your first year at that program. Hopefully you won't only be a good resident but enjoy your time there and change your mind about your belief of the program. Good luck

 

[Esmolol]

So an update: Talked to the PD yesterday. We spoken for a good 40 minutes. My current PD wanted me to take the phone call in their office so that for sure it wouldn't me missed, so we called together and then they left the room.

This was my favorite part. I miss the parental handholding...

 

[Faefly]

I have a question. What happens if Op gets fired?
Will he be able to apply again next year or work? are there non-match options?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I have a question. What happens if Op gets fired?
Will he be able to apply again next year or work? are there non-match options?

Assuming you mean he gets fired from his advanced program, he technically can’t be fired until he completes 45 days due to the match agreement. After that the program can fire him if they determine he has violated his contract. Assuming they fire him early enough he could reapply through ERAS for spots starting in 2024, or he could try to find a spot outside the match that has opened up for a similar reason (ie another resident being fired or unable to start). Could be in same advanced field, PGY2 IM, or something else PGY1.

Same would more or less apply if OP was fired from prelim, except that the OP would never get the 45 days at advanced program because he’d be ineligible to start. He could apply for PGY1 positions outside the match to start immediately, and or reapply to ERAS to start in 2024. Or possibly register for match now and hope to SOAP for a position starting July 2023. It doesn’t sound like being fired from prelim is a concern at the moment.

 

[TJRock]

I was concerned about this too, but they specifically told that since I haven't started yet, there's no formal record of me there yet other than my match status, hence there's no official mechanism to keep records like this. My interpretation was that it was done to have record for the developing situation. Once the situation is resolved or action is taken, there's no place to keep those records.

Even if this is true (and it isn't), I guarantee that their legal department has plenty of file room available. You admitted your mistakes for the record so there is no backtracking. Lawyers love this stuff.

 

[emergentmd]

This thread has been great entertainment and people still continue to give advice. Bravo to Op.

"my current PD made the call for me and left to make sure I took the call" translated is "my current PD have no trust in me so had to handhold me to watch me make the call"

Seriously, what PD would do this? I for sure would not handhold a 27 yr old to watch him make this call. If I had so little trust in this adult, I would just go tell the new program to just jettison this guy.

Laughable...

 

[gyngyn]

Seriously, what PD would do this?

Answer: just about any of them.
ACGME evaluation of pre-lim programs includes the ability to get their residents a categorical position. This is one of the reasons that those who have already matched into a categorical spot are among the easiest to SOAP into a prelim (I know that OP did not SOAP. This example is for illustration only).
In other words, PD's at prelim programs want to make darn sure that their pre-lim residents get a categorical spot (and keep it). A failure to get categorical positions is a factor that reflects poorly upon the quality of the pre-lim program.

 

[emergentmd]

Answer: just about any of them.
ACGME evaluation of pre-lim programs includes the ability to get their residents a categorical position. This is one of the reasons that those who have already matched into a categorical spot are among the easiest to SOAP into a prelim (I know that OP did not SOAP. This example is for illustration only).
In other words, PD's at prelim programs want to make darn sure that their pre-lim residents get a categorical spot (and keep it). A failure to get categorical positions is a factor that reflects poorly upon the quality of the pre-lim program.

I am sure this is correct but the level of handholding is just ridiculous but I guess this does not surprise me given how our society is moving. Instead of producing adults, we coddle them endlessly.

I have been a Department chair, FSER owner/manager with probably 50+ docs in my career. If someone screws up and need to discuss with the CEO, I for sure would not drag him to the meeting to make sure he attends. If he doesn't attend, then he bears the consequence.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I am sure this is correct but the level of handholding is just ridiculous but I guess this does not surprise me given how our society is moving. Instead of producing adults, we coddle them endlessly.

If we pretend this story is true, I can honestly not fault his PD for feeling this dude needs to be treated like a kindergartener

 

[Bored Snorlax]

This is Netflix potential. Good luck OP whatever happens.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

he technically can’t be fired until he completes 45 days due to the match agreement.

This is not exactly true. If the OP "fails the onboarding process" then they will never start. The program has to make a good faith effort to get them onboarded. But if reporting this event to the BoM results in them not getting a license, then they wouldn't get to work there at all. It's unlikely with this scenario -- but imagine if someone breaks a law of some sort, they might not get onboarded. Failing a drug test is another example.

To the OP:

I highly recommend you use the following as your thought process: You have lost this position, and unless you impress them with your new found committment to train there, you will be fired. Perhaps that's not true, but it's best you think of it this way. And also, in most places if the chair decides they don't want you, it doesn't matter what the PD thinks. The PD works for the chair.