Xxx

[sunshinefl]

I come from a poor white family with no connections, went to Ross, 99% on all Steps, applied to 10 programs, matched first-choice, 99% on neurology RITE, board certified, and currently working an academic job. So no, sometimes if you see an IMG succeeding, it’s due to their hard work, and not family connections.

Congrats on your success. You are the exception to the exception...a Caribbean unicorn.

If those federal loans were not available, I wouldn’t have been able to go to medical school. This is also the case for many of my colleagues.

Thank you, but it’s not that rare of a thing. As I said, my core group of friends in school all matched into the specialties they wanted. My roommate from Med school matched into general surgery and is also faculty at large center. Granted, I surrounded myself with like minded people early on, avoided negativity on forums like SDN, kept my head down and worked hard. I would hardly call myself a unicorn, I just knew the scores I had to get on boards and made it happen.

They were replying to cerebral edema. So unless you have 2 accounts you’re posting under, the unicorn comment/compliment wasn’t even directed to you.

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[LittleBrother]

1) the Caribbean and other off-shore schools are part of "for-profit" companies where the vast majority of US undergraduate and graduate programs are chartered as non-profit/educational organizations. There are no investors waiting to make profit off of the loans
2) All US undergraduate, graduate, and professional have accreditation standards that include admissions standards. The Carib schools rely mostly of the two metrics of pulse rate and credit score for admissions
3) the for profit schools advertise on misleading promises of STEP and Matching as my previous analysis shows. At least in my experience I see most US graduate programs promote based on education with little promise of employment.

None of this changes the underlying fact that US MD schools are financially not responsible for their students success or failure, same as Carib schools, same as all US programs.

I really don't know what the issue is here. These schools are selling you a legitimate education. You can become a licensed MD this way. I'm sure their success rate sucks because they take anyone, but if the money is that dumb then oh well?

US "nonprofit" schools take tons of dumb money too. We give kids 100k to major in gender studies fully knowing that their tuition is essentially just a jobs program for universities. If we want to talk about return on investments and financial responsibility with federal loans, then their are much bigger fish out their - like a substantial part of US undergrad education.

 

[Select All That Apply]

None of this changes the underlying fact that US MD schools are financially not responsible for their students success or failure, same as Carib schools, same as all US programs.

I really don't know what the issue is here. These schools are selling you a legitimate education. You can become a licensed MD this way. I'm sure their success rate sucks because they take anyone, but if the money is that dumb than oh well?

US "nonprofit" schools take tons of dumb money too. We give kids 100k to major in general studies fully knowing that their tuition is essentially just a jobs program for universities. If we want to talk about return on investments and financial responsibility with federal loans, then their are much bigger fish out their - like a substantial part of US undergrad education.

The US undergrad situation though has the same motifs running through it as this issue. Institutions taking advantage of an uneducated demographic that has yet to fully develop their central nervous system and coercing them into making long term financial commitments when they don't know any better. Ever since for profit schools started targeting VA Veterans with significant TBI complications for enrollment in order to cash in on their GI Bill sort of made them them and programs like them the first priority to get out of the system considering how little they care about their actual customers. Hell, wasn't it even raised in Congress in the late 90's that it was for profit institutions that were tuition hiking contributing to the current inflation in student tuition prices as other schools began to adjust the cost of doing business based on what their competitors were doing? Calling out and focusing on the most predatory programs is just basic triage, get the elephant in the room out before thinking about the other "fish" in the room.

 

[Mad Jack]

None of this changes the underlying fact that US MD schools are financially not responsible for their students success or failure, same as Carib schools, same as all US programs.

I really don't know what the issue is here. These schools are selling you a legitimate education. You can become a licensed MD this way. I'm sure their success rate sucks because they take anyone, but if the money is that dumb then oh well?

US "nonprofit" schools take tons of dumb money too. We give kids 100k to major in gender studies fully knowing that their tuition is essentially just a jobs program for universities. If we want to talk about return on investments and financial responsibility with federal loans, then their are much bigger fish out their - like a substantial part of US undergrad education.

The difference is that funds for medical education are basically unlimited, unlike undergraduate loans. To minimize the financial damage this can cause, restrictions were placed on foreign medical schools to ensure those unlimited dollars were well spent, since each student can rack up nearly half a million dollars of undischargeable debt. The Carib schools petitioned for a special exception and were granted it, but this should not have been the case as there was no moral or ethical justification for it

 

[LittleBrother]

The US undergrad situation though has the same motifs running through it as this issue. Institutions taking advantage of an uneducated demographic that has yet to fully develop their central nervous system and coercing them into making long term financial commitments when they don't know any better. Ever since for profit schools started targeting VA Veterans with significant TBI complications for enrollment in order to cash in on their GI Bill sort of made them them and programs like them the first priority to get out of the system considering how little they care about their actual customers. Hell, wasn't it even raised in Congress in the late 90's that it was for profit institutions that were tuition hiking contributing to the current inflation in student tuition prices as other schools began to adjust the cost of doing business based on what their competitors were doing? Calling out and focusing on the most predatory programs is just basic triage, get the elephant in the room out before thinking about the other "fish" in the room.

There is plenty of predation in nonprofit education. This idea that these schools are bad just because "capitalism" is sophomoric.

Yes, US schools have a much higher match rate. But they also pick only the best candidates. How many trillions of dollars have been spent on premed educations that go nowhere? How many public health programs live off of premeds trying to boost their GPA? I mean shoot wasn't their just a thread about someone who was kicked out of Dental School being in masters program to improve her GPA? How innocent is that program?

 

[Vivid_Quail]

The difference is that funds for medical education are basically unlimited, unlike undergraduate loans. To minimize the financial damage this can cause, restrictions were placed on foreign medical schools to ensure those unlimited dollars were well spent, since each student can rack up nearly half a million dollars of undischargeable debt. The Carib schools petitioned for a special exception and were granted it, but this should not have been the case as there was no moral or ethical justification for it

Also, Polish and Czech schools (which are the only schools approved for loans in continental Europe) are nowhere near as expensive as the Caribbean schools. They are like 10-15k euro per year with lower living expenses than the carib. Plus they are an EU degree which is recognized in any EU country as a fall back plan. The Irish, Australian, and Israeli schools are as expensive as the Carib schools, but they are all of much higher quality and have decent match rates. Still not worth it in my eyes but they are also at least in countries with residency programs, not tiny islands...

I think those countries I mentioned are all the international schools approved for US federal student loans.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

How many trillions of dollars have been spent on premed educations that go nowhere? How many public health programs live off of premeds trying to boost their GPA?

Lol...you can do something with an undergrad degree in biology or chemistry like most premeds get or with an MPH. You can even do something with a "premed" degree that some schools have. There is not job you can do with a Caribbean MD degree and no residency that you can't do with a bachelor's. That is the difference.

 

[Mad Jack]

Also, Polish and Czech schools (which are the only schools approved for loans in continental Europe) are nowhere near as expensive as the Caribbean schools. They are like 10-15k euro per year with lower living expenses than the carib. Plus they are an EU degree which is recognized in any EU country as a fall back plan. The Irish, Australian, and Israeli schools are as expensive as the Carib schools, but they are all of much higher quality and have decent match rates. Still not worth it in my eyes but they are also at least in countries with residency programs, not tiny islands...

I think those countries I mentioned are all the international schools approved for US federal student loans.

And they all meet the stringent requirements of the US, save for the Carib with their nonsense exceptions

 

[Select All That Apply]

There is plenty of predation in nonprofit education. This idea that these schools are bad just because "capitalism" is sophomoric.

Yes, US schools have a much higher match rate. But they also pick only the best candidates. How many trillions of dollars have been spent on premed educations that go nowhere? How many public health programs live off of premeds trying to boost their GPA? I mean shoot wasn't their just a thread about someone who was kicked out of Dental School being in masters program to improve her GPA? How innocent is that program?

I think that there are tiers to predation, but if you think signing up VA veterans with significant neuro deficits into programs to make a profit to be similar to what is the market standard in education then there's really nothing else I can really write that would be productive here.

 

[LittleBrother]

I think that there are tiers to predation, but if you think signing up VA veterans with significant neuro deficits into programs to make a profit to be similar to what is the market standard in education then there's really nothing else I can really write that would be productive here.

As a veteran, I haven't actually encountered any of these programs, neither have my friends, none of us have been "prayed upon," at least not any more than the dozens of MPH programs that started emailing me as soon as I set up AMCAs (along with the Carib schools).

Did you learn about these programs from the Times as well?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

There's a saying where I'm from, "A cat doesn't have the same luck as a dog". I need you and other Caribbean graduates to understand that not all Caribbean graduates will have the same luck as you. You mentioned that not all Caribbean schools are the same, please realize that this applies for students as well. You seemed to have graduated from this school a while ago and had great luck, but this will not be the same for all graduates, especially now. Times have changed and so have standards. You can't use your experience, especially an old one, to try and convince someone else to gamble with their lives. There are cold, hard facts out there that prove that Caribbean schools have high attrition rates and low match rates, your feelings don't change that.

Call it luck is insulting though. You need to know your strengths and weakness and go with a plan to succeed whether you go to on-shore or off-shore. You need to work harder and residency choices will be limited with off-shore schools. Similar arguments are used for justifying BSMD program i.e. traditional path is risky and a big gamble so better spend $1/2M and be happy that you avoided all the risk.

 

[Mad Jack]

Call it luck is insulting though. You need to know your strengths and weakness and go with a plan to succeed whether you go to on-shore or off-shore. You need to work harder and residency choices will be limited with off-shore schools. Similar arguments are used for justifying BSMD program i.e. traditional path is risky and a big gamble so better spend $1/2M and be happy that you avoided all the risk.

It is impossible to have a good idea of how well you will do in medical school until you are there. There is nothing comparable you are ever exposed to until you are there, so you will not know your strengths and weaknesses, period.

 

[Splenda88]

It is impossible to have a good idea of how well you will do in medical school until you were there. There is nothing comparable you are ever exposed to until you are there, so you will not know your strengths and weaknesses, period.

I agree... I thought I was the smartest kid on the block when I was in nursing school. It took 1 day in med school to realize that I am not even average. There are some really dedicated and smart people in med school...

 

[Medicine-Man]

Call it luck is insulting though. You need to know your strengths and weakness and go with a plan to succeed whether you go to on-shore or off-shore. You need to work harder and residency choices will be limited with off-shore schools. Similar arguments are used for justifying BSMD program i.e. traditional path is risky and a big gamble so better spend $1/2M and be happy that you avoided all the risk.

The only gamble with BS/MD is if you decide you don’t want medicine anymore.

Premed has a high drop out rate, but how many of those are forced (can’t handle workload, bad grades) versus choice (don’t like medicine anymore)?

 

[Mad Jack]

I agree... I thought I was the smartest kid on the block when I was in nursing school. It took 1 day in med school to realize that I am not even average. There are some really dedicated and smart people in med school...

I was near the top of my class in undergrad, MCAT in the 96th percentile and I was spectacularly average as a medical student

 

[jhmmd]

Uh...a Caribbean student who makes 99 percentile on Step 1, 2 and 3 is objectively a unicorn. Anyone who does that is a unicorn, so you are like a rainbow unicorn since you did that coming out of the Caribbean.

Not sure why you feel like you have to defend yourself from claims that you are an exceptional person. There is no reason to deny it. It is a compliment and objectively true.

Rainbow unicorn ftw lol

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

It is impossible to have a good idea of how well you will do in medical school until you are there. There is nothing comparable you are ever exposed to until you are there, so you will not know your strengths and weaknesses, period.

Agree to that, so whether failing at Harvard or Caribbean is student's fault ?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The only gamble with BS/MD is if you decide you don’t want medicine anymore.

Premed has a high drop out rate, but how many of those are forced (can’t handle workload, bad grades) versus choice (don’t like medicine anymore)?

How many of those who went to Caribbean are forced as well?

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I was near the top of my class in undergrad, MCAT in the 96th percentile and I was spectacularly average as a medical student

you and me both

It is impossible to have a good idea of how well you will do in medical school until you are there. There is nothing comparable you are ever exposed to until you are there, so you will not know your strengths and weaknesses, period.

A few SMPs are comparable...there are only a handful that actually integrate you into M1 classes though. Even then, it is only about 80% of the workload. But it is a lot better preparation than undergrad. Especially relevant to this discussion because the kids going to the Caribbean schools should probably be doing an SMP, post-bacc, or retaking the MCAT. That just isn't nearly as fun as submitting your high school transcript and getting to call yourself an accepted med student the next day, albeit at a school in the Caribbean.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

you and me both

A few SMPs are comparable...there are only a handful that actually integrate you into M1 classes though. Even then, it is only about 80% of the workload. But it is a lot better preparation than undergrad. Especially relevant to this discussion because the kids going to the Caribbean schools should probably be doing an SMP, post-bacc, or retaking the MCAT. That just isn't nearly as fun as submitting your high school transcript and getting to call yourself an accepted med student the next day, albeit at a school in the Caribbean.

I agree SMP, Post-bacc, MCAT retake should be tried before any off-shore but some are not sure about improving and go to Caribbean directly after UG.

 

[LittleBrother]

I agree SMP, Post-bacc, MCAT retake should be tried before any off-shore but some are not sure about improving and go to Caribbean directly after UG.

I think you are splitting hairs here.

Let's face it, some kids can benefit from a SMP and some kids can make it into residency from Carib schools.

But the business model for many of these programa is feeding off the carcasses of failed MD/DO applications. I've never even met anyone who organically wanted to go get an MPH as opposed to "I was premed but didn't drop switch majors in time so now I'm stuck in healthcare but don't want to deal with patients" or "I didn't get accepted and need something to do that will look good" or "I need to up my GPA."

So either way you cut it you got kids, some already 60 something K in debt, who are then applying for further debt on the prospects that this might rescue their applications so that maybe they can go to Med school and go even further in debt.

Something tells me that none of these programs evaluate their applicants ability to get into Med School. I don't even know how competitive they are. They have DNP programs all online with 100% acceptance rates apparently. How hard can it be to get into an MPH?

So what exactly is the difference? One set of programs is taking warm bodies and saying "hey after dropping another 80k on us you might be able to go to Med School." And another is saying "hey we are a Med school
we just suck and graduating from us doesn't guarantee you a job."


This all boils down to one thing: these are outlets for exceptions. If you know you screwed off in undergrad but got your stuff together and your dad is rich why not just jump right into a Carib school if you can make it work for you? But most people going to these schools are applicants that failed for a reason, which they have not addressed, and thus they will fail afterwards as well. It's just that with SMPs, MPHs, ect, no one even tracks whether you got into med school at all.

Actually, serious question, any hard data SMP program success with getting people into Med Schools?

 

[Vivid_Quail]

They have DNP programs all online with 100% acceptance rates apparently. How hard can it be to get into an MPH?

You had some half decent points but it is hard to keep reading after this.

NOT EVERYTHING ON SDN HAS TO BE ABOUT MID-LEVELS. They aren't even relevant to what you are trying to argue, nor does this specific argument about 100% acceptance DNP programs make sense.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think you are splitting hairs here.

Let's face it, some kids can benefit from a SMP and some kids can make it into residency from Carib schools.

But the business model for many of these programa is feeding off the carcasses of failed MD/DO applications. I've never even met anyone who organically wanted to go get an MPH as opposed to "I was premed but didn't drop switch majors in time so now I'm stuck in healthcare but don't want to deal with patients" or "I didn't get accepted and need something to do that will look good" or "I need to up my GPA."

So either way you cut it you got kids, some already 60 something K in debt, who are then applying for further debt on the prospects that this might rescue their applications so that maybe they can go to Med school and go even further in debt.

Something tells me that none of these programs evaluate their applicants ability to get into Med School. I don't even know how competitive they are. They have DNP programs all online with 100% acceptance rates apparently. How hard can it be to get into an MPH?

So what exactly is the difference? One set of programs is taking warm bodies and saying "hey after dropping another 80k on us you might be able to go to Med School." And another is saying "hey we are a Med school
we just suck and graduating from us doesn't guarantee you a job."


This all boils down to one thing: these are outlets for exceptions. If you know you screwed off in undergrad but got your stuff together and your dad is rich why not just jump right into a Carib school if you can make it work for you? But most people going to these schools are applicants that failed for a reason, which they have not addressed, and thus they will fail afterwards as well. It's just that with SMPs, MPHs, ect, no one even tracks whether you got into med school at all.

Actually, serious question, any hard data SMP program success with getting people into Med Schools?

I only have N=1 data sets and almost all the kids I know who went to Carib schools have physicians in the family.

 

[jhmmd]

I think you are splitting hairs here.

Let's face it, some kids can benefit from a SMP and some kids can make it into residency from Carib schools.

But the business model for many of these programa is feeding off the carcasses of failed MD/DO applications. I've never even met anyone who organically wanted to go get an MPH as opposed to "I was premed but didn't drop switch majors in time so now I'm stuck in healthcare but don't want to deal with patients" or "I didn't get accepted and need something to do that will look good" or "I need to up my GPA."

So either way you cut it you got kids, some already 60 something K in debt, who are then applying for further debt on the prospects that this might rescue their applications so that maybe they can go to Med school and go even further in debt.

Something tells me that none of these programs evaluate their applicants ability to get into Med School. I don't even know how competitive they are. They have DNP programs all online with 100% acceptance rates apparently. How hard can it be to get into an MPH?

So what exactly is the difference? One set of programs is taking warm bodies and saying "hey after dropping another 80k on us you might be able to go to Med School." And another is saying "hey we are a Med school
we just suck and graduating from us doesn't guarantee you a job."


This all boils down to one thing: these are outlets for exceptions. If you know you screwed off in undergrad but got your stuff together and your dad is rich why not just jump right into a Carib school if you can make it work for you? But most people going to these schools are applicants that failed for a reason, which they have not addressed, and thus they will fail afterwards as well. It's just that with SMPs, MPHs, ect, no one even tracks whether you got into med school at all.

Actually, serious question, any hard data SMP program success with getting people into Med Schools?

BU, Georgetown, etc. all publish percentage of students who get accepted into med school (D.O. as well as M.D.) from their SMP programs. Last time I checked for BU it was like 70%. Georgetown was more like 80%. Not exactly something you'd want to bet your life on, but good odds nonetheless.

 

[TX.MD23]

Actually, serious question, any hard data SMP program success with getting people into Med Schools?

University of Cincinnati SMP has an average 93% acceptance rate for the past 5 years reported. There are two more recent years not reported but I can confirm they are also >90%. It is about $16k cheaper than Georgetown (probably the most famous SMP) and has 32-34 students per year instead of 150+ like BU, GT, etc. You take anatomy lab with the med students and take all of their exams. You attend all of their lectures and do their TBL's. Best SMP in the country other than Temple which has linkage. You basically need to be within inches of an MD acceptance with the SMP to get into the Temple SMP. They don't even consider people with a science GPA < 3.4. Not sure about their success rate.

If you are an URM, there are other MD SMP's with linkage but I don't know about the stats on those. Not a URM personally so it was not relevant when I was looking.

 

[LittleBrother]

You had some half decent points but it is hard to keep reading after this.

NOT EVERYTHING ON SDN HAS TO BE ABOUT MID-LEVELS. They aren't even relevant to what you are trying to argue, nor does this specific argument about 100% acceptance DNP programs make sense.

I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of US programs that are willing to take your money, many of these programs are nonprofit, many do not care about the future success of their students or the patients under them.... that is, the central criticism of the Carib schools is far from specific to Carib schools. It is widespread in the education system, profit and nonprofit, US and International.

Many people have pointed out significant success rates of some SMP programs but I have to imagine that these programs are few and taking some of the most competitive applicants. If BU and Georgetown have success in the 80% what are the options the numbers like for schools that aren't nationally ranked? Granted, I don't have time to comb research each individual school it is just a point of skepticism.

The more I think about it, the more I think Carib might be a valid option for a sufficiently brave and confident enough individual.

What do these schools think about IAs? And how much do undergrad IAs matter in Residency match versus Step score and other metrics?

Is it possible that there are "untouchable" undergrads who would otherwise be fine in Med school and just messed up?

I think my central point is that many grad programs survive on prolonging the agony that is the educational system. MD/DO schools have rigorous pre-screening and are essentially talent-mining in that they only accept students that these schools are highly confident of. Recognizing that the MD/DO admission process isn't flawless, it's easy to say that some students who would be successful are inadvertently screened out. All these programs (SMP and Carib) do is give people a shot, however they aren't taking the risk. That doesn't seem too unfair to me. Like, we can't say that none of these programs are unsuccessful, many who do stick it out end up as doctors. But because these programs draw from a riskier population obviously their match rates won't look anything like an MD/DO program drawing from the top 50 percentile.


EDIT: Take this more as a criticism of our education system and less as a defense of Carib schools. I know that these Carib schools are taking plenty of students for a ride, I just don't see how that is different than any US undergrad with premed programs, ect. Like yeah the Carib schools will throw you into match with a 50/50 chance but what undergrads can boast of 50% or higher MD/DO acceptance rates when you show up? I know plenty of premeds at my school (which is a good school) have sunk tens of thousands of dollars into their med-school specific education and have little hope of an A this cycle. I doubt at any point the admin intervened and said "we aren't going to take your money anymore because we don't think you will be successful."

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of US programs that are willing to take your money, many of these programs are nonprofit, many do not care about the future success of their students or the patients under them.... that is, the central criticism of the Carib schools is far from specific to Carib schools. It is widespread in the education system, profit and nonprofit, US and International.

Many people have pointed out significant success rates of some SMP programs but I have to imagine that these programs are few and taking some of the most competitive applicants. If BU and Georgetown have success in the 80% what are the options the numbers like for schools that aren't nationally ranked? Granted, I don't have time to comb research each individual school it is just a point of skepticism.

The more I think about it, the more I think Carib might be a valid option for a sufficiently brave and confident enough individual.

What do these schools think about IAs? And how much do undergrad IAs matter in Residency match versus Step score and other metrics?

Is it possible that there are "untouchable" undergrads who would otherwise be fine in Med school and just messed up?

I think my central point is that many grad programs survive on prolonging the agony that is the educational system. MD/DO schools have rigorous pre-screening and are essentially talent-mining in that they only accept students that these schools are highly confident of. Recognizing that the MD/DO admission process isn't flawless, it's easy to say that some students who would be successful are inadvertently screened out. All these programs (SMP and Carib) do is give people a shot, however they aren't taking the risk. That doesn't seem too unfair to me. Like, we can't say that none of these programs are unsuccessful, many who do stick it out end up as doctors. But because these programs draw from a riskier population obviously their match rates won't look anything like an MD/DO program drawing from the top 50 percentile.


EDIT: Take this more as a criticism of our education system and less as a defense of Carib schools. I know that these Carib schools are taking plenty of students for a ride, I just don't see how that is different than any US undergrad with premed programs, ect. Like yeah the Carib schools will throw you into match with a 50/50 chance but what undergrads can boast of 50% or higher MD/DO acceptance rates when you show up? I know plenty of premeds at my school (which is a good school) have sunk tens of thousands of dollars into their med-school specific education and have little hope of an A this cycle. I doubt at any point the admin intervened and said "we aren't going to take your money anymore because we don't think you will be successful."

The problem I have with saying Caribbean schools are no worse than US undergrads and SMP programs, once again, and undergrad degree and SMP are degrees that are worth something outside of medicine.

SMP: If you go to an SMP and go poorly but graduate, you can get get jobs that are only open to people with a master's degree or more education. I know people who have done this. Many employer's don't give a crap if it was a "premed" master's and the vast majority won't even know any better. Even people in academic and industry labs. Your sunk cost also ended firmly with an SMP...if you can't handle an SMP, you can't handle med school. Many people push through step failures and repeating a year at Caribbean medical schools because they have already spent to much to get to just M2 or M3.

Undergrad: Even if you don't get into medical school, you have a bachelor's which is much better than a high school diploma.

Carib med school and you drop out: If you do poorly you first year or two at a carib school and drop out, you wasted 60-80k for no increase in job prospects.

Carib med school and you don't match: same thing as above but now you have wasted $240-400k and have no increase in job prospects.

Comparing SMP's and undergrad to Caribbean schools is prototypical apple to oranges comparison.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The problem I have with saying Caribbean schools are no worse than US undergrads and SMP programs, once again, and undergrad degree and SMP are degrees that are worth something outside of medicine.

SMP: If you go to an SMP and go poorly but graduate, you can get get jobs that are only open to people with a master's degree or more education. I know people who have done this. Many employer's don't give a crap if it was a "premed" master's and the vast majority won't even know any better. Even people in academic and industry labs. Your sunk cost also ended firmly with an SMP...if you can't handle an SMP, you can't handle med school. Many people push through step failures and repeating a year at Caribbean medical schools because they have already spent to much to get to just M2 or M3.

Undergrad: Even if you don't get into medical school, you have a bachelor's which is much better than a high school diploma.

Carib med school and you drop out: If you do poorly you first year or two at a carib school and drop out, you wasted 60-80k for no increase in job prospects.

Carib med school and you don't match: same thing as above but now you have wasted $240-400k and have no increase in job prospects.

Comparing SMP's and undergrad to Caribbean schools is prototypical apple to oranges comparison.

Don't you need UG to go to Carib med schools unless you are going for BSMD there?

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Don't you need UG to go to Carib med schools unless you are going for BSMD there?

SGU, the most "respected" Caribbean school, has 5, 6, and 7 year programs that require various types of high school diplomas/exams, in addition to their 4 year MD program that requires a bachelor's, but I don't see how this is relevant. Are you saying that Caribbean schools requiring a bachelor's helps my case or @LittleBrother's? Many carib schools will take kids out of high school or with a few semesters of college, just curious what you are trying to argue.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

SGU, the most "respected" Caribbean school, has 5, 6, and 7 year programs that require various types of high school diplomas/exams, in addition to their 4 year MD program that requires a bachelor's, but I don't see how this is relevant. Are you saying that Caribbean schools requiring a bachelor's helps my case or @LittleBrother's? Many carib schools will take kids out of high school or with a few semesters of college, just curious what you are trying to argue.

Not many go to Caribbean for BSMD as per I know (I know one kid who went but came back due to health issues) so I was wondering about UG argument.

 

[LittleBrother]

The problem I have with saying Caribbean schools are no worse than US undergrads and SMP programs, once again, and undergrad degree and SMP are degrees that are worth something outside of medicine.

SMP: If you go to an SMP and go poorly but graduate, you can get get jobs that are only open to people with a master's degree or more education. I know people who have done this. Many employer's don't give a crap if it was a "premed" master's and the vast majority won't even know any better. Even people in academic and industry labs. Your sunk cost also ended firmly with an SMP...if you can't handle an SMP, you can't handle med school. Many people push through step failures and repeating a year at Caribbean medical schools because they have already spent to much to get to just M2 or M3.

Undergrad: Even if you don't get into medical school, you have a bachelor's which is much better than a high school diploma.

Carib med school and you drop out: If you do poorly you first year or two at a carib school and drop out, you wasted 60-80k for no increase in job prospects.

Carib med school and you don't match: same thing as above but now you have wasted $240-400k and have no increase in job prospects.

Comparing SMP's and undergrad to Caribbean schools is prototypical apple to oranges comparison.

I wouldn't consider a UG "much better than a HS diploma." My first decade out of high school I worked while my sister went to UG and then to a Masters program for Art History. I made more money than her as a GS-04 fighting wildfires when she had a State job working in a museum. I did this without her 100k in student debt. Many of the jobs out there are hardly competitive with the money and lifestyle that come with trade jobs like powerlineman, electricians, plumbers, ect, especially when accounting for debt and the location of these jobs. Powerlinemen can easily pull six figures having never gone into educational debt.

Certainly Carib schools play on people who are way too committed and have few options but so does a large proportion of the education system. I frankly don't believe we need nearly the amount of college educated people we produce. Obviously you need a strong academic foundation as a physician but do you really need a communications degree to become a secretary?

That many non-profit education programs exist off of students trying to break into competitive fields who are looking to pad their resume isn't new. The UG program my sister attended had no problem taking her money for a "photography degree" and essentially pigeonholed her into a situation where the only way she could work in her "field" was with a Masters, and the promise of a job even with that was tenuous at best.

So, broadly speaking, we have a Med school pipeline that cuts out the bottom 50% right off the bat and who knows how many of those kids would be able to make effective use of their UG diploma. I mean, I hedged my bets and got a Bio degree because I could use that to go right back into land management, but someone with a Kinesiology degree? There are few options that exist without seriously more debt commitment and a lot more tenuous of a road. Maybe PE teacher....

At the end of the day we have a system where we know that at least half the entrants won't be successful and we are more than comfortable taking their money until they drop out. This exist regardless of whether we are talking about Community Colleges, UGs, Carib Med Schools, or SMPs. Inability to pay of student debt is hardly a feature of failed Med students.

 

[HopeP]

Not many go to Caribbean for BSMD as per I know (I know one kid who went but came back due to health issues) so I was wondering about UG argument.

If I extend @Vivid_Quail argument "Carib med school and you drop out: If you do poorly you first year or two at a carib school and drop out, you wasted 60-80k for no increase in job prospects." for Caribbean BS/MD

Carib BS/MD and you drop out: You lost whatever money spent and your job prospects are as good as high school diploma.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

At the end of the day we have a system where we know that at least half the entrants won't be successful and we are more than comfortable taking their money until they drop out.

Do you have a better solution? Just let everyone into medical school?

Also, in regards to you making more than your sister with a high school diploma vs a bachelors. Weird flex I guess? Your n = 2 is not exactly the same as n = 100,000,000+:

The important caveat for professional degrees is they are basically useless without a license (architect, psychologist, lawyer, physician, etc). More than half of Caribbean grads don't have a medical license because they can't get one. Bachelor's and master's makes more than HS just by graduating.

Your argument about too many people going to college is a philosophical/political one--the reality is that you need at least a BS/BA to get the vast majority of well-paying jobs in the American economy. Yeah, you can do a trade and make high 5-figures, but those jobs are very hard on the body and there is a reason they have trouble recruiting people. You can make the same money in a much easier white collar job...you just need a bachelor's first "jUsT Do a tRAde" is honestly a meme now. Especially on Reddit but I guess on SDN too.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I wouldn't consider a UG "much better than a HS diploma."

A CS major from top 10 schools are starting at $100K+signing bonus. I am not sure if any HS diploma holder can make that much after 4 years unless they have an independent business.

 

[LittleBrother]

Do you have a better solution? Just let everyone into medical school?

Also, in regards to you making more than your sister with a high school diploma vs a bachelors. Weird flex I guess? Your n = 2 is not exactly the same as n = 100,000,000+:

View attachment 331082

The important caveat for professional degrees is they are basically useless without a license (architect, psychologist, lawyer, physician, etc). More than half of Caribbean grads don't have a medical license because they can't get one. Bachelor's and master's makes more than HS just by graduating.

Your argument about too many people going to college is a philosophical/political one--the reality is that you need at least a BS/BA to get the vast majority of well-paying jobs in the American economy. Yeah, you can do a trade and make high 5-figures, but those jobs are very hard on the body and there is a reason they have trouble recruiting people. You can make the same money in a much easier white collar job...you just need a bachelor's first "jUsT Do a tRAde" is honestly a meme now. Especially on Reddit but I guess on SDN too.

Do you have a better solution? Just let everyone into medical school?

Also, in regards to you making more than your sister with a high school diploma vs a bachelors. Weird flex I guess? Your n = 2 is not exactly the same as n = 100,000,000+:

View attachment 331082

The important caveat for professional degrees is they are basically useless without a license (architect, psychologist, lawyer, physician, etc). More than half of Caribbean grads don't have a medical license because they can't get one. Bachelor's and master's makes more than HS just by graduating.

Your argument about too many people going to college is a philosophical/political one--the reality is that you need at least a BS/BA to get the vast majority of well-paying jobs in the American economy. Yeah, you can do a trade and make high 5-figures, but those jobs are very hard on the body and there is a reason they have trouble recruiting people. You can make the same money in a much easier white collar job...you just need a bachelor's first "jUsT Do a tRAde" is honestly a meme now. Especially on Reddit but I guess on SDN too.

First, as a correction, my sister has a Masters, not a Bachelors.

Now, to the graphic, I'm not sure how much overtime goes into factoring this math. I know more than a few powerline men who make six figures simply accepting overtime which is almost always present in fields that are struggling to find people. "Trades" is a really broad category and it isn't equivalent to say that someone with a welding certification working in a mechanic shop is the same as a nuclear welder who can command serious cash per hour. My previous job as a wildland firefighter, according to the FS, starts at 26k annually as a GS3. My first season as a GS3 I probably pulled like 38k and that isn't counting the perdiem and food provided on fires, where I spent most of my time, nor the fact that I only worked 5 months. Most of my pay came in the form of OT and Hazard pay. We also aren't accounting for COA nor expenses to enter these fields. Yes, a highly educated worker can command a higher salary, but they also have to pay for that education (as opposed to being paid while in a union-sponsored program). Also, those jobs are confined to relatively few areas with high COAs. You might make 100k coding in Silicon Valley, but your rent for a 2bd apt is like 4k. Where I lived as a firefighter, I could rent a 4brm house on a mountain lake for like 2k a month.

I also resent the idea that these trade jobs are excessively arduous and physically harmful. Some of these jobs are more dangerous than others, besides that, their are many benefits. My job was arduous and dangerous (which I was fine with) however I also was in the best shape of my life, constantly outside, and by all accounts was healthy and active. With heart disease and obesity being leading causes of mortality in this country, I don't think that sedentary jobs are implicitly better. It also came with plenty of opportunities for advancement had I stayed in the field.

I think the biggest point of bias is that this graphic does not consider the cost of failure. Yes, doctorate degrees earn higher salaries but the path to doctorate degrees is arduous, expensive, and littered with failed candidates. Many of these candidates have few alternatives having failed in their original aspirations. What exactly do failed Med students do and how much debt are they in compared to other, more realistic paths to the same place?

Also, we aren't accounting for whether these educations are necessary for the jobs they are filling. We have pipe-lined students into college, I was on that pipeline and was fortunate enough to break out of it (by joining the military) however in my HS no attention was ever paid to options outside of college. When your pool of applicants all have an undergrad education it's not weird that people getting these jobs all fall into the "college educated" bracket, but that doesn't mean a college degree was necessary for the functioning of that job. Again, do you really need a communications degree to become a secretary?

Please, consider what I am saying:

I fully recognize that being a doctor is better than being a welder, but I would rather be a welder than a failed doctor. Obviously these jobs are better in some ways (although my sister isn't making out any better than a plumber, nor are many of her peers) however they are also limited, highly competitive, and carry a lot of risk.


In my experience, our education system takes on the characteristics of a racket. There is an undeniable need for education, however in many instances education extracts wealth from people without anything close to a gurantee of success. The differences in income between a STEM degree and a Arts/Humanities degree is substantial. That a degree is often necessary to make a high income is pretty reasonable to say, but it is untrue to say that everyone (or even most) people with degrees command a high income. What of those people? Would they have been better off just forgoing the debt and opportunity costs and going into trades or something else instead? I think so.

So, in the grand scheme of things I don't see Carib schools as exceptionally more predatory than any school offering an education degree, or a large psych or sociology program.

Also as an aside, recognize where I'm coming from in this. I graduated HS after the housing market collapse, many of my peers struggled to find meaningful work that they weren't overqualified for. My generation is deeply in debt and ignorant to a massive sector of the labor market. Many of them were committed to serious debt before they could even drink. In the meantime, by not going to college right off the bat, I was able to secure life and job experience, gain financial security, and when I decided to go to Med school it was pretty much a straight shot. I will be entering med school next year having no student debt, I will have secured my education on my own, and I did so with the confidence of a working-class goal-oriented professional. I fully recognize the massive advantage I had approaching my degree and med school application process in my mid-to-late twenties as opposed to when I was 17. There are plenty of opportunities for people to secure meaningful skills and life experiences before wagering 10-100k on their future when they barely know what they want. We all know that their are thousands of premed students who whimsically take this challenge on having to conception of how arduous it is, and while you seem to only be mad at the Carib schools at the end of the pipeline, I'm mad that the pipeline exist at all.

 

[jhmmd]

First, as a correction, my sister has a Masters, not a Bachelors.

Now, to the graphic, I'm not sure how much overtime goes into factoring this math. I know more than a few powerline men who make six figures simply accepting overtime which is almost always present in fields that are struggling to find people. "Trades" is a really broad category and it isn't equivalent to say that someone with a welding certification working in a mechanic shop is the same as a nuclear welder who can command serious cash per hour. My previous job as a wildland firefighter, according to the FS, starts at 26k annually as a GS3. My first season as a GS3 I probably pulled like 38k and that isn't counting the perdiem and food provided on fires, where I spent most of my time, nor the fact that I only worked 5 months. Most of my pay came in the form of OT and Hazard pay. We also aren't accounting for COA nor expenses to enter these fields. Yes, a highly educated worker can command a higher salary, but they also have to pay for that education (as opposed to being paid while in a union-sponsored program). Also, those jobs are confined to relatively few areas with high COAs. You might make 100k coding in Silicon Valley, but your rent for a 2bd apt is like 4k. Where I lived as a firefighter, I could rent a 4brm house on a mountain lake for like 2k a month.

I also resent the idea that these trade jobs are excessively arduous and physically harmful. Some of these jobs are more dangerous than others, besides that, their are many benefits. My job was arduous and dangerous (which I was fine with) however I also was in the best shape of my life, constantly outside, and by all accounts was healthy and active. With heart disease and obesity being leading causes of mortality in this country, I don't think that sedentary jobs are implicitly better. It also came with plenty of opportunities for advancement had I stayed in the field.

I think the biggest point of bias is that this graphic does not consider the cost of failure. Yes, doctorate degrees earn higher salaries but the path to doctorate degrees is arduous, expensive, and littered with failed candidates. Many of these candidates have few alternatives having failed in their original aspirations. What exactly do failed Med students do and how much debt are they in compared to other, more realistic paths to the same place?

Also, we aren't accounting for whether these educations are necessary for the jobs they are filling. We have pipe-lined students into college, I was on that pipeline and was fortunate enough to break out of it (by joining the military) however in my HS no attention was ever paid to options outside of college. When your pool of applicants all have an undergrad education it's not weird that people getting these jobs all fall into the "college educated" bracket, but that doesn't mean a college degree was necessary for the functioning of that job. Again, do you really need a communications degree to become a secretary?

Please, consider what I am saying:

I fully recognize that being a doctor is better than being a welder, but I would rather be a welder than a failed doctor. Obviously these jobs are better in some ways (although my sister isn't making out any better than a plumber, nor are many of her peers) however they are also limited, highly competitive, and carry a lot of risk.


In my experience, our education system takes on the characteristics of a racket. There is an undeniable need for education, however in many instances education extracts wealth from people without anything close to a gurantee of success. The differences in income between a STEM degree and a Arts/Humanities degree is substantial. That a degree is often necessary to make a high income is pretty reasonable to say, but it is untrue to say that everyone (or even most) people with degrees command a high income. What of those people? Would they have been better off just forgoing the debt and opportunity costs and going into trades or something else instead? I think so.

So, in the grand scheme of things I don't see Carib schools as exceptionally more predatory than any school offering an education degree, or a large psych or sociology program.

Also as an aside, recognize where I'm coming from in this. I graduated HS after the housing market collapse, many of my peers struggled to find meaningful work that they weren't overqualified for. My generation is deeply in debt and ignorant to a massive sector of the labor market. Many of them were committed to serious debt before they could even drink. In the meantime, by not going to college right off the bat, I was able to secure life and job experience, gain financial security, and when I decided to go to Med school it was pretty much a straight shot. I will be entering med school next year having no student debt, I will have secured my education on my own, and I did so with the confidence of a working-class goal-oriented professional. I fully recognize the massive advantage I had approaching my degree and med school application process in my mid-to-late twenties as opposed to when I was 17. There are plenty of opportunities for people to secure meaningful skills and life experiences before wagering 10-100k on their future when they barely know what they want. We all know that their are thousands of premed students who whimsically take this challenge on having to conception of how arduous it is, and while you seem to only be mad at the Carib schools at the end of the pipeline, I'm mad that the pipeline exist at all.

1. Re: the first bolded point--yes, education is nec. for most jobs. See the graphic above.
2. Re the 2nd bolded point: education is NOT a "racket." This is ridiculous. The education system is hundreds of years old and is govt-run (for the most part), at least in the U.S. That means that there are thousands of people making sure that everything is as fair as possible and running smoothly. Education has no mob ties and is not a monopoly in any way. For example, Pell grants allow many lower-income students to graduate (see this link). Who is embezzling what money? Many educational programs are short on funds, not bursting with money as you would lead people to believe.
3. I agree with you on the third bolded point.
4. Re the 4th bolded point: As people have been telling you OVER AND OVER in this thread, Carribbean schools are KNOWN for preying upon naive undergrads who just want an easy way out. It is much easier to get into a Carribbean school than it is to come back to the states and practice as a doctor with a degree from a Carribbean school. It's like going through customs to a foreign country; it's easy leaving the U.S. and hard to come back. I respect where you are coming from and understand that but the argument you are making is quite a stretch.

The reason people on SDN advise others to double check things before enrolling in a Carribbean school is because they have seen their peers burned out $250k+ on loans to foreign schools without any hope of ever paying it back. Last time I checked, you can't declare bankruptcy on student loans. So this is something to be wary of. Your argument equates Carribbean schools to school in general, and this makes no sense from multiple points of view.

 

[Dave1980]

Ugh I didn’t mean to become a Douglas Medina expert but I did Google him extensively because his writing is like watching a car crash and I’m unable to look away.

Anyways, it’s psychiatry.

I need to ask the expert. How did a Georgetown grad who wanted to go into psych not match? Something out of the ordinary must have happened right? Do tell!

 

[Dave1980]

I think they'll end up having to pay taxes on the amount forgiven so they're still kinda screwed. They could file for bankruptcy and hope for the best

You don't pay taxes on the forgiven loan.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I need to ask the expert. How did a Georgetown grad who wanted to go into psych not match? Something out of the ordinary must have happened right? Do tell!

First of all, Georgetown isn’t a top 20 medical school, it’s a good midtier MD school. I say this because “Georgetown grad” seems to imply the name brand school would have helped in. But the name itself isn’t going to guarantee a match, especially in psych which brings me to my next point.

Personality is extremely important in psych.

Also, it is implied in the article that his step was <210 maybe <200. Even for MD seniors the match rates for psych aren’t super high with that bad of a Step 1. He should have dual applied FM with that low of a step. FM match rates for that low of a step for an MD senior are still like 98% if I remember correctly. For MD grads (people who didn’t match the first time) with that step, even FM match rates are pretty bad.

 

[LittleBrother]

A CS major from top 10 schools are starting at $100K+signing bonus. I am not sure if any HS diploma holder can make that much after 4 years unless they have an independent business.

1. Re: the first bolded point--yes, education is nec. for most jobs. See the graphic above.
2. Re the 2nd bolded point: education is NOT a "racket." This is ridiculous. The educaiton system is hundreds of years old and is govt-run (for the most part), at least in the U.S. That means that there are thousands of people making sure that everything is as fair as possible and running smoothly. Education has no mob ties and is not a monopoly in any way. For example, Pell grants allow many lower-income students to graduate (see this link). Who is embezzling what money? Many educational programs are short on funds, not bursting with money as you would lead people to believe.
3. I agree with you on the third bolded point.
4. Re the 4th bolded point: As people have been telling you OVER AND OVER in this thread, Carribbean schools are KNOWN for preying upon naive undergrads who just want an easy way out. It is much easier to get into a Carribbean school than it is to come back to the states and practice as a doctor with a degree from a Carribbean school. It's like going through customs to a foreign country; it's easy leaving the U.S. and hard to come back. I respect where you are coming from and understand that but the argument you are making is quite a stretch.

The reason people on SDN advise others to double check things before enrolling in a Carribbean school is because they have seen their peers burned out $250k+ on loans to foreign schools without any hope of ever paying it back. Last time I checked, you can't declare bankruptcy on student loans. So this is something to be wary of. Your argument equates Carribbean schools to school in general, and this makes no sense from multiple points of view.

It is hard to say that a college education is necessary for many jobs it is required for (or required to be competitive for). Especially given that many people entering college haven't actually reached a high school level of competency. You definitely need a college education to go to med school but, again, I don't think that Comms or Psych degree buys anyone that much.

Hard to say that education isn't practically a monopoly especially for undeserved communities. You get stuck with bloated public schools with long track records of failure. The teachers unions vehemently oppose any democratization efforts through charter schools or school choice initiatives. In fact, many in these unions want to openly abolish private and charter schools as well as home schooling. It is not the realm of conspiracy to point out that the teachers Unions represent some of the most potent Unions in the US, the safest (their work has not been outsourced) and some of the most steadfast supporters of one particular political party.

So yes, I think it's a racket. I think that idiots in the Department of Education a generation ago made the sophomoric determination that if everyone had college degrees, everyone would get high wages, and we've seen an explosion in the college-student population, an opening of the federal loan floodgates, an explosion in student debt, a balooning in University tuition, costs, and beuracracy, and these initiatives have essentially turned our education system into a jobs program. Many school districts knowingly pass substandard students for whatever reason. The math competency rate in the LA public school system is something like 30%. With the twin combination of abject failure to maintain standards in K-12 and massive tuition increases in college, one has to wonder whether we are passing these kids merely to keep the would be costumer population strong. The cynic in me would argue that the much touted "college experience" is another unjustified selling point pitched to naive children who end up mortgaging their future to pay for this bloat.



Again, I am not defending Carib schools, per se. I just don't see them as exceptionally more predatory than the rest of the education system. I went to High School like the rest of yall. I saw my peers consciously directed in a college-only manner despite knowing full well many of them would not thrive in college at that time. Many of my peers went on to get useless degrees if at all and are no better for it. Many of them passed their time in Community Colleges, aimless, only to drop out. They are degree-less yet still carry student debt without the benefit of any actual skill. Even at the rather strong acemic instition I go to, I rub elbows with plenty want-to-be Med students whose abilities would be doubted by any reasonable person. We all know that a very large proportion of self-identified premeds will ultimately fail to matriculate, that their education costs billions of dollars, and yet we only seem to take exception to the Carib schools taking advantage of this money.

This is weird to me because the track record of the Carib schools, along with their reputation, is probably the most honest. It is hard to do any basic amount of internet research and then be duped by these schools, whereas plenty of US colleges thrive off of the nebulous promises of higher education that are hardly ever realized by their student population.

 

[Dave1980]

especially in psych

I went through the match about 10 years ago but back then psych was very easy to get into. Has that changed?

I've always though psych is the black sheep of medicine.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I went through the match about 10 years ago but back then psych was very easy to get into. Has that changed?

I've always though psych is the black sheep of medicine.

Yeah it seems to have changed considerably. I think this is for a couple reasons. Med students are caring more and more about lifestyle and psych promises 40 hours a week as an attending and not much more than that even as a resident. Also, mental illness is much less stigmatized than it was even 10 years ago so more people have seen a psychiatrist themselves and there is a higher demand for psychiatry.

Anyways, the match rate in 2020 for MD seniors for psychiatry was lower than clinical neurology, diagnostic radiology, emergency medicine, family medicine, internal medicine, neurology, pathology, pediatrics, radiation oncology. It was tied with anesthesiology and PM&R, and a few tenths of a percent above med peds. Obviously there is heavy self-selection in some of those fields -- I wouldn't say psych is more competitive than diagnostic radiology or rad onc just because of a better match rate. Psych still has the second lowest step 1 score after family medicine, but like I said in another comment, I've heard that personality is very important in psych.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If I extend @Vivid_Quail argument "Carib med school and you drop out: If you do poorly you first year or two at a carib school and drop out, you wasted 60-80k for no increase in job prospects." for Caribbean BS/MD

Carib BS/MD and you drop out: You lost whatever money spent and your job prospects are as good as high school diploma.

Carib BS/MD dropouts can come back to US and do UG. That’s what my friend’s kid did. He went for BSMD but had health issues and came back to CA. Went to community college and then UC. He is a teacher now. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Carib BS/MD dropouts can come back to US and do UG. That’s what my friend’s kid did. He went for BSMD but had health issues and came back to CA. Went to community college and then UC. He is a teacher now. Where there's a will, there's a way.

That's crazy that someone from the US went to the Caribbean for a BS/MD degree. I forgot to mention that from what I can tell their five and six year programs seem to be focused on British, Indian, European, etc students who are more qualified when they leave high school than American students (on average), so their BS/MD degrees don't seem to cater that strongly to Americans. Unless the seven year degree which just requires a US high school diploma is their most popular. Still weird for an American to not at least try a semester or two at a cheap domestic undergrad and see how they do. Oh well, glad it seemed to work out okay for that kid. At least his life isn't totally ruined.

 

[KnightDoc]

You don't pay taxes on the forgiven loan.

Actually .. you don't pay taxes on principal forgiven through PSLF, but certainly do pay taxes on amounts forgiven through the various income based repayment plans, or on any amounts ultimately wiped out through a default!

 

[HopeP]

We all know that a very large proportion of self-identified premeds will ultimately fail to matriculate, that their education costs billions of dollars, and yet we only seem to take exception to the Carib schools taking advantage of this money.

Agreed with first part about failure rate, it cost billions to be pre-med is misleading as they are not paying/taking loans to be pre-med rather whatever UG major they are pursuing that has better job prospects than high school diploma. While at Caribbean loans are taken specifically to be Dr which has unpleasant match rate.

 

[Dr.SPAC3MAN]

I wouldn't consider a UG "much better than a HS diploma." My first decade out of high school I worked while my sister went to UG and then to a Masters program for Art History. I made more money than her as a GS-04 fighting wildfires when she had a State job working in a museum

Literally almost any job that is not min wage will lead to more useful job opportunities than this career path a UG degree, and especially a Masters degree, would certainly be higher yield for job opportunity. higher ed in STEM is a much better option. And not to bash Art history that much, some people like that, just like some people like being a teacher despite low income. perhaps @Vivid_Quail's argument should have been STEM degrees will almost certainly yield more opportunities in almost every case. If higher education guaranteed high income most everyone would be college grads, but I think Quail is saying that it increases your odds of high income/employment. Obviously you and your sister's story may be an exception.

 

[Dave1980]

Actually .. you don't pay taxes on principal forgiven through PSLF, but certainly do pay taxes on amounts forgiven through the various income based repayment plans, or on any amounts ultimately wiped out through a default!

I don't follow. When after 10 years of payments the balance goes to 0 you don't pay taxes on that.

 

[Medicine-Man]

Literally almost any job that is not min wage will lead to more useful job opportunities than this career path a UG degree, and especially a Masters degree, would certainly be higher yield for job opportunity. perhaps @Vivid_Quail's argument should have been STEM degrees will almost certainly yield more opportunities in almost every case. If higher education guaranteed high income most everyone would be college grads, but I think Quail is saying that it increases your odds of high income/employment. Obviously you and your sister's story may be an exception.

This. If you go to college and learn how to code (heck, even if you skip the college and learn how to code) you are almost guaranteed a career with above average earnings.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't follow. When after 10 years of payments the balance goes to 0 you don't pay taxes on that.

You most certainly do!

Taxability of Student Loan Forgiveness - Finaid

Some loan forgiveness programs are taxable and some are not. Under current law, the amount forgiven generally represents taxable income for income tax

finaid.org