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[deleted1041819]

Carrib = bad

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Just read that.

The title and premise seem a bit misleading. She went to a Caribbean medical school and had a 7 year gap between 3rd and 4th year. That's why she's having trouble matching.

But many applicants, especially those coming from families unfamiliar with the intricacies of medical training, say they aren’t warned of the low match rates for international medical students.

No one in my family is a doctor. No one before my generation even went to college except one distant relative who went back to school after years in the workforce. All of the information you need to know about medical school is available online, free of charge on websites like SDN, Reddit, AAMC, etc. I really don't believe having a doctor in the family is a great advantage to the medical school process because any knowledge they have is seriously outdated. I know this from talking to physicians who have children my age applying to medical school.

Bonus: Commenters saying they would never let DOs or FMGs treat their family.

 

[KnightDoc]

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job (Published 2021)

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

www.nytimes.com

This should be required reading before anyone is allowed to submit an application to a foreign medical school. And all for-profit schools, everywhere, should be excluded from federal loan guarantees. That would either drive them out of business, drive tuition down to its market value, or place the risk for defaulted loans from people who can't get jobs where it belongs, on the private sector. Interest rates on such loans would be so high that they would also discourage many from taking the shot.

 

[r2med]

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job (Published 2021)

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

www.nytimes.com

Are local grads also left without matching chronically? Of course assuming they did their part.

 

[lumya]

I wasn’t premed back in college (I wanted to be a patent lawyer because I hate fun apparently) and I still cringed when an upper classmate friend of mine told me she was going to the Carribeans and I expressed concerns about later matching. This was like 10 years ago.

I feel bad for students who are in this position but that line about not being warned about low match rates rubs me the wrong way. No one wants a Carib school as their first choice because everyone agrees that US based ones are better. (Side note, I later met one of this friend’s classmates at a wedding and I told her I was applying MD/DO and the girl had the gall to tell me she’s rather not Match than be a DO.)

 

[Meowster007]

I wasn’t premed back in college (I wanted to be a patent lawyer because I hate fun apparently) and I still cringed when an upper classmate friend of mine told me she was going to the Carribeans and I expressed concerns about later matching. This was like 10 years ago.

I feel bad for students who are in this position but that line about not being warned about low match rates rubs me the wrong way. No one wants a Carib school as their first choice because everyone agrees that US based ones are better. (Side note, I later met one of this friend’s classmates at a wedding and I told her I was applying MD/DO and the girl had the gall to tell me she’s rather not Match than be a DO.)

Why do ignorant premeds hating on DOs like that? I think b/c they don't understand they are the same? Thoughts? I just find it crazy how even gaining an acceptance (whether MD/DO) would be an honor because so many students get rejected every year (~40kish)

 

[lumya]

Why do ignorant premeds hating on DOs like that? I think b/c they don't understand they are the same? Thoughts? I just find it crazy how even gaining an acceptance (whether MD/DO) would be an honor because so many students get rejected every year (~40kish)

I have absolutely no idea. But I guess to this girl, the idea of having an MD after her name was more important than being an actual doctor?

 

[LizzyM]

Bonus: Commenters saying they would never let DOs or FMGs treat their family.

Joke's on them. You go to the emergency department and you won't know (or care) that the physician is a DO until you receive your discharge papers with the doctor's name.

 

[Detailsmatter]

It's honestly pretty heartbreaking to hear about all those people's stories. Its interesting though that they include someone who graduated from Georgetown to make it seem like this also commonly happens with AMGs. They didn't elaborate on why he didn't match, but its gotta some big red flag I would imagine

 

[lumya]

It's honestly pretty heartbreaking to hear about all those people's stories. Its interesting though that they include someone who graduated from Georgetown to make it seem like this also commonly happens with AMGs. They didn't elaborate on why he didn't match, but its gotta some big red flag I would imagine

Interestingly in everything I found about Douglas Medina, the Georgetown grad they cited, mentions him blaming IMGs as a reason why it's hard to Match.

Mr. Medina acknowledged that he scored lower on his exams, but said he graduated from medical school in good standing

I wonder how much lower.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Easy to blame others and not realize their deficiencies.

 

[Goro]

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

‘I Am Worth It’: Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can’t Get a Job (Published 2021)

Medical schools are producing more graduates, but residency programs haven’t kept up, leaving thousands of young doctors “chronically unmatched” and deep in debt.

www.nytimes.com

First paragraph:

"Dr. Kristy Cromblin knew that as the descendant of Alabama sharecroppers and the first person in her family to go to college, making it to medical school might seem like an improbable dream. Her parents watched in proud disbelief as she inched closer to that goal, enrolling in a medical school in Barbados and enlisting in the military with plans to serve one day as a flight surgeon."

This needs to be posted in the Carib forum.

 

[Mad Jack]

The ironic part is most clinical doctors never look at another doc and ask MD or DO? Doctors view each other by the specialty they are in. Once you are practicing they really dont give a damn about the degree.

MD, DO, IMG, none of it matters unless you're in academics. It's more about reputation than anything, literally can't even remember the last time another doctor brought up me being a DO or where I went to school

 

[Meowster007]

MD, DO, IMG, none of it matters unless you're in academics. It's more about reputation than anything, literally can't even remember the last time another doctor brought up me being a DO or where I went to school

Love hearing this!

 

[Mad Jack]

Love hearing this!

Just remember that there's the whole getting there part. The match is not so fun

 

[Splenda88]

I have said that before: The ONLY Caribbean schools that are worth going to are located in PUERTO RICO.

 

[Splenda88]

I have absolutely no idea. But I guess to this girl, the idea of having an MD after her name was more important than being an actual doctor?

MDs rule...

 

[Damson]

I have said that before: The ONLY Caribbean schools that are worth going to are located in PUERTO RICO.

Will need to speak spanish to apply

 

[stickgirl390]

Im a MS3, I have a friend who’s wife is a Carib grad, currently a resident at the hospital I’m doing clinical rotations at. She worked her butt off to match, applied to hundreds of programs, and did phenomenal on her boards. Her husband loves to brag about how hard working and self-taught his wife is, which is all true good for her. But then he started talking about how my US MD program “babies” us and spoon feeds us everything, citing our low drop out rate compared to Carib as evidence.

I just bit my tongue and walked away. No one who makes it to a US residency is “babied” or “spoon fed”. We all take the same boards for a reason.

 

[operaman]

I did to this article the same thing I do whenever I see a thread posted in allo or the residency forums about match issues: stopped reading the moment I realized this was a Caribbean IMG student.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Frankly, I’d like to see us cut off student loans to these predatory schools.

Oh and she took 7 years off?!? And then her school let her come back and pay one more year of tuition despite the fact they knew she can’t match and probably can’t even be licensed in most states. There are time limits in place for completing your education that she now can’t meet.

I do wonder what the red flag for the Georgetown kid is. I tried to find it but no luck thus far. I’m sure it’s a big one though. He’s written some rather off the deep end nonsensical stuff like he’s licensed but can’t get a license number because of not matching. If that’s any indication, I’m gonna guess the rabbit hole runs deep.

Just be a normal hard working human being and go to a real MD/DO school and you’ll do just fine.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I had an inkling this was about carib school graduates. I always feel terrible for the people who end up with that much debt and no way of paying it off. I hope that future applicants will do their research about these schools, especially now that more articles like these are coming out. Still, some of the people who choose carib schools know the risks but choose to gamble anyways. I don't think I'll ever be optimistic enough to put $250,000+ on a less than 50% chance of acceptance.

 

[Splenda88]

I am kind of conflicted about it. But I think they should be a path to practice medicine in every state like the AP license in Missouri and Arkansas.

Physicians will have the option to hire better 'providers' instead of these clueless NP...

 

[KnightDoc]

Im a MS3, I have a friend who’s wife is a Carib grad, currently a resident at the hospital I’m doing clinical rotations at. She worked her butt off to match, applied to hundreds of programs, and did phenomenal on her boards. Her husband loves to brag about how hard working and self-taught his wife is, which is all true good for her. But then he started talking about how my US MD program “babies” us and spoon feeds us everything, citing our low drop out rate compared to Carib as evidence.

I just bit my tongue and walked away. No one who makes it to a US residency is “babied” or “spoon fed”. We all take the same boards for a reason.

"Babied" and "spoon fed" really means "supported," and "low drop out rate" really means "pre-screened for admission" rather open admission with screening out occurring after tuition payments clear.

Biting your tongue was really all you could do, since he's a friend. The reality is, the comments were most likely just a reflection of jealousy, since you didn't have to deal with all the hardship and uncertainty his wife did to end up in the same place. You did everything right on the front end and had the opportunity to attend a normal med school that isn't set up to take advantage of its students.

 

[YCAGA]

Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools.

Hahahahaha...because "warmth and adventure" are the most important thing when you are in the hospital or studying for 60-80 hrs/week for 4 years. Then you can also be unemployed when you graduate.

Not to mention this "some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don't rely on MCAT scores for admission" line--it is arguably more ridiculous. Yeah, it is a great idea to avoid taking the medical school entrance exam...only to then be faced with dozens of in-house med school exams, 3 difficult USMLE board exams, yearly exams in residency, and then board certification exams. Oh, and re-certification exams every 5-10 years as an attending. But, sure, it isn't sketchy at all to get into a medical school that lets you skip out on an exam because you get a little nervous in your tum tum when you are under pressure. If someone has issues with anxiety as a pre-med, they absolutely should see a physician and get that worked out. Same goes for any mental illness; treatable, well-controlled mental illness should not keep anyone out of medical school. But going to a Caribbean medical school because you are a "bad test taker" and/or have anxiety is just horrible decision making and kicking the can down the road.

I don't know how people continue to pay for a NYT subscription. This isn't "journalism". If their reporting for this story is this bad, imagine how bad their reporting is for stories when we are not familiar with the background facts.

 

[Medicine-Man]

Hahahahaha...because "warmth and adventure" are the most important thing when you are in the hospital or studying for 60-80 hrs/week for 4 years. Then you can also be unemployed when you graduate.

Not to mention this "some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don't rely on MCAT scores for admission" line--it is arguably more ridiculous. Yeah, it is a great idea to avoid taking the medical school entrance exam...only to then be faced with dozens of in-house med school exams, 3 difficult USMLE board exams, yearly exams in residency, and then board certification exams. Oh, and re-certification exams every 5-10 years as an attending. But, sure, it isn't sketchy at all to get into a medical school that lets you skip out on an exam because you get a little nervous in your tum tum when you are under pressure. If someone has issues with anxiety as a pre-med, they absolutely should see a physician and get that worked out. Same goes for any mental illness; treatable, well-controlled mental illness should not keep anyone out of medical school. But going to a Caribbean medical school because you are a "bad test taker" and/or have anxiety is just horrible decision making and kicking the can down the road.

I don't know how people continue to pay for a NYT subscription. This isn't "journalism". If their reporting for this story is this bad, imagine how bad their reporting is for stories when we are not familiar with the background facts.

next thing we know they'll be a nationwide "movement" to abolish the MCAT.

 

[gyngyn]

next thing we know they'll be a nationwide "movement" to abolish the MCAT.

It started last year.

 

[YCAGA]

It started last year.

Yep

We should just abolish medical school exams while we are at it. We all just want to help people and love science. No need to slow us down with exams or making sure we are "competent."

 

[Medicine-Man]

Yep

We should just abolish medical school exams while we are at it. We all just want to help people and love science. No need to slow us down with exams or making sure we are "competent."

Just abolish medical school. Web MD is all we need

 

[RJ McReady]

This article is so misleading it’s almost laughable. It completely ignores the real problem which is the predatory practices of Caribbean medical schools. To suggest that people go there because they have test taking anxiety and don’t want to rake the MCAT or because of the sense of adventure or my personal favorite, the “great weather”, is absolutely hilarious. People go there because they can’t get into a US school, period. And in 2021, if you are not aware that going there will not guarantee you a residency position, then you are living in a cave. Suddenly increasing the number of residency positions just because someone has an MD is not the answer to any problem. Why would a program Director in any specialty, much less a competitive specialty, choose a Caribbean graduate over a US graduate, when there are 500 people applying for 10 positions? No one is just “entitled” to a residency position just because they have an MD and have passed a licensing examination.

 

[RJ McReady]

I do wonder what the red flag for the Georgetown kid is.

I thought the same thing. There has to be something. The article actually contradicts his position which is that the number of US IMG’s should be limited to 2000 so that US graduates are preferentially taken.

 

[Detailsmatter]

I think it also has to do a lot with carib grads themselves telling people its possible to have a career here in the US. I think most will tell others about how hard it was but they don't actively enough tell them to avoid that route. as an example, a good friend has a dad that's a department head at a small community hospital (he's an immigrant and did residency here) and a majority of their residents are IMGs (lots of US-IMGs but also just legit IMGs from other countries) and he was telling her to just go to SGU because a lot of their residents went there and because she wasn't getting any interviews for MD schools after only one cycle. Luckily she ended up getting into one of the Puerto Rico schools but I think it goes to show that there just isn't enough of a warning to not go the carib route. even though its very obvious here on SDN and reddit people who are misinformed enough to even be considering that option are gonna listen more to what that one SGU/Ross grad they know then strangers on the internet (unfortunate as that may be)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Abolish MCAT, P/F for grades and USMLE is the direction medical schools are going. Pretty soon we will have lottery system or simply based on privileged or disadvantaged status only.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think it also has to do a lot with carib grads themselves telling people its possible to have a career here in the US. I think most will tell others about how hard it was but they don't actively enough tell them to avoid that route. as an example, a good friend has a dad that's a department head at a small community hospital (he's an immigrant and did residency here) and a majority of their residents are IMGs (lots of US-IMGs but also just legit IMGs from other countries) and he was telling her to just go to SGU because a lot of their residents went there and because she wasn't getting any interviews for MD schools after only one cycle. Luckily she ended up getting into one of the Puerto Rico schools but I think it goes to show that there just isn't enough of a warning to not go the carib route. even though its very obvious here on SDN and reddit people who are misinformed enough to even be considering that option are gonna listen more to what that one SGU/Ross grad they know then strangers on the internet (unfortunate as that may be)

I know few doctors kids who went to Caribbean and succeed, may be they used their connections to get residency and for them it looks like an easy route.

 

[lumya]

I thought the same thing. There has to be something. The article actually contradicts his position which is that the number of US IMG’s should be limited to 2000 so that US graduates are preferentially taken.

An article I found he said he had lower test scores but kept on stressing he graduated “in good standing” with the school so it makes me think it was a mix of poor Step performance and a borderline IA/poor LOR

 

[DeepInTheHeart]

Does anyone know what specialty the Georgetown guy was applying to?

 

[lumya]

Does anyone know what specialty the Georgetown guy was applying to?

Ugh I didn’t mean to become a Douglas Medina expert but I did Google him extensively because his writing is like watching a car crash and I’m unable to look away.

Anyways, it’s psychiatry.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

The only carib med student I "know" is someone who's friends with some of the people in my twitter sphere. I was kinda shocked when I saw that she was going to a carib school because all the people I interact with on twitter are usually good at researching stuff. I often wonder what happened and what her thought process was. She goes to SGU so she has a tiny chance of matching. Hopefully she does.

next thing we know they'll be a nationwide "movement" to abolish the MCAT.

If you abolish the MCAT then med schools are just going to place an emphasis on something else.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Ugh I didn’t mean to become a Douglas Medina expert but I did Google him extensively because his writing is like watching a car crash and unable to look away.

Anyways, it’s psychiatry.

I thought it was something ultra competitive or something

 

[Medicine-Man]

If you abolish the MCAT then med schools are just going to place an emphasis on something else.

As if the fanatics have the foresight to realize that...

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yup! Lots of my professor's kids are SGU/Ross grads and doing great - but it's the connections through their parents that likely helped them land a residency (in addition to great scores, unlimited resources, etc). If you ever see a lone IMG among US MDs on a residency roster just quickly search their last name and you're bound to find their mom/dad an attending within the department. Even our former dean is an IMG but people forget that what was possible 20-30 years ago isn't as feasible now for IMGs.

I also know couple of kids who went to India after HS but succeeded. They don’t have direct PD connections but they all came back and got some clinical experiences in US before applying for residency. Total time they spent is 8-9 years after HS so worked out same. These are the details even NY Times won’t know 😀

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It's honestly pretty heartbreaking to hear about all those people's stories. Its interesting though that they include someone who graduated from Georgetown to make it seem like this also commonly happens with AMGs. They didn't elaborate on why he didn't match, but its gotta some big red flag I would imagine

Some don't play the mafch game well. They don't apply broadly enough or over reach on programs they are not that competitive for. Understanding what a competitive applicant looks like at the respective program you apply to is very important. Some don't apply to enough programs. It's not always a red flag, just some didn't play the match game very well.

 

[HopeP]

seems like a desperate attempt by NYT to fill Trump void.

 

[bngli]

So what happens to their debt? I mean many just can't pay them off. Like Cromblin in the article will probably never pay off her debt. I know two people like that. They have $500k loans and haven't been able to match for years. And they don't exactly have high incomes. Do the taxpayers somehow end up eating the cost?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

So what happens to their debt? I mean many just can't pay them off. Like Cromblin in the article will probably never pay off her debt. I know two people like that. They have $500k loans and haven't been able to match for years. And they don't exactly have high incomes. Do the taxpayers somehow end up eating the cost?

I guess they could try for jobs that get them public service loan forgiveness.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I guess they could try for jobs that get them public service loan forgiveness.

I think they'll end up having to pay taxes on the amount forgiven so they're still kinda screwed. They could file for bankruptcy and hope for the best

 

[KnightDoc]

So what happens to their debt? I mean many just can't pay them off. Like Cromblin in the article will probably never pay off her debt. I know two people like that. They have $500k loans and haven't been able to match for years. And they don't exactly have high incomes. Do the taxpayers somehow end up eating the cost?

The same as everyone else's loans. If they are federal loans and they are not repaid, yes, taxpayers eat them. Doesn't matter whether it's through default, public service loan forgiveness, income based repayment write-offs, whatever.

This is why the federal government shouldn't allow for profit schools to participate, whether it's an off shore medical school, refrigerator repair, whatever. Some students do fine, but many are saddled with debts they can't repay. The owners of the schools get rich, students have debt hanging over their heads for decades, and taxpayers end up writing off the debt.

If the private sector had to finance this themselves, US-based schools like CNU would make it work, but most of the off-shore schools would be out of business, due to how high the interest rate would have to be to compensate the lenders for the huge loan losses, which would lead many would-be students to take a pass.

 

[DNAJB6]

So what happens to their debt? I mean many just can't pay them off. Like Cromblin in the article will probably never pay off her debt. I know two people like that. They have $500k loans and haven't been able to match for years. And they don't exactly have high incomes. Do the taxpayers somehow end up eating the cost?

Some bankruptcy courts have ruled similar circumstances sufficient enough to meet the Brunner Test and allow either a full or partial discharge of the student loans in bankruptcy.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think they'll end up having to pay taxes on the amount forgiven so they're still kinda screwed. They could file for bankruptcy and hope for the best

This^^^^. In the end, their big complaint is that they put in the time, graduated, and now can't work. Throw in a little xenophobia, and we have the gist of their issue.

They're not really any more screwed because they can't pay their loans or taxes. If they can't pay the loans, they won't be able to pay the taxes, and the IRS will either put them on a payment plan where they'll make minimal payments, or, as you said, they'll avoid the taxes through bankruptcy. There are certainly more frivolous debts to avoid through bankruptcy than this. So ultimately, it's not like they are going to have to sell body parts to pay the debt. It's just that they'll never be practicing physicians in the US.

Of course, if their parents paid out of pocket, or if they used private or parent loans, THEN taxpayers will not be eating it, and they WILL be flushing a small fortune down the toilet.

 

[deleted314957]

Joke's on them. You go to the emergency department and you won't know (or care) that the physician is a DO until you receive your discharge papers with the doctor's name.

Or the pathologist who diagnoses your cancer.