Will there ever be too many medical schools in the US?

[username456789]

In 30 years plus since I graduated from med school I've only once ever seen or heard of that happening in pediatrics and the family got it all wrong.

That's at least in part because you're not privy to the inner monologue and sets of decisions that occur well before that point.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

Out of curiosity, if you or someone you cared about had a sick child and was at a children's hospital, which schools would you/they accept providers from? What if they just needed stitches? What if they were healthy newborns and the DO hospitalist was covering the newborn nursery. What if they went to a DO or Caribbean or other foreign school but had done a US residency? Which residencies would you accept? Assume for a moment that it is possible to ask for a specific doctor within a service, as is "sometimes" possible.

In 30 years plus since I graduated from med school I've only once ever seen or heard of that happening in pediatrics and the family got it all wrong.

To some degree the circumstances you're describing don't allude themselves to much choice on the part of the patient.

But even within these constraints, families still make these types of decisions - they choose which Children's hospital to take their kid to on the basis of perceived prestige. When the kid is in the ED and needs stitches, they request a plastic surgery consult.

In elective, outpatient circumstances, patients definitely research their providers and often seek them out specifically based on training.

 

[NontradCA]

Yep one of my business partners does the same. Her business cards, the sign on the door etc. all say "Dr" instead of "DO". This is not an oversight, it's done intentionally.

That being said she's had patients (few, but they do exist) refuse to see her because of the DO so her subterfuge is understandable.

Does she have trouble filling her panel? I like how you added that second part in there when the issue is of someone's inadequacy in self confidence and nothing to do with the greater good.

I personally don't put that I'm in DO school on my Facebook but it's mainly because I feel utterly embarrassed for the people that post pretentious med school related nonsense all over it and would prefer not to be a hypocrite.

 

[username456789]

I have significantly more respect for someone who says "I went to ______ School of Osteopathic Medicine" or "[insert name of Caribbean school" than those who try to dodge the question and simply offer the metropolitan area in which they did their clinical rotations, or the state in which their DO school is located.

 

[OCDEMS]

Yep one of my business partners does the same. Her business cards, the sign on the door etc. all say "Dr" instead of "DO". This is not an oversight, it's done intentionally.

That being said she's had patients (few, but they do exist) refuse to see her because of the DO so her subterfuge is understandable.

Just so you're aware, that's against the AOA's code of ethics, specifically section 8.

"A physician shall designate her/his osteopathic school of practice in all professional uses of her/his name."

"The following are not considered proper on practice stationery or office signs:

• Dr. John Doe (this is considered improper even if the doctor signs his name John Doe, DO). The osteopathic identification should be printed.
  
  
• Dr. John Doe, Specialist in Osteopathic Medicine. The term specialist should be avoided in this circumstance."

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Pages/aoa-code-of-ethic-interpretation.aspx

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

simply offer the metropolitan area in which they did their clinical rotations

Oh this one drives me nuts.

 

[NontradCA]

I have significantly more respect for someone who says "I went to ______ School of Osteopathic Medicine" or "[insert name of Caribbean school" than those who try to dodge the question and simply offer the metropolitan area in which they did their clinical rotations, or the state in which their DO school is located.

I go to a school that sounds a lot like the big bad MD school nearby. In fact, no one has heard of my school. I'm always quick to correct the assumption and inform people that I go to a DO school.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Anybody got an extra dead horse I could borrow?

 

[OCDEMS]

Anybody got an extra dead horse I could borrow?

 

[touchpause13]

My point is that you can bet in suburbia/major cities, we will be looking up where our providers went to school, etc. In rural areas, you have no choice. You'll essentially get people who don't want to be there or are on some NHSC obligation, unless they're from a rural area.

Depends on the area. Lots of people prefer DOs where I'm at (decent size Midwestern city)

I've lived in rural areas as well and people don't care about your degree there at all. (Altho they might care about your race)

 

[Winged Scapula]

Just so you're aware, that's against the AOA's code of ethics, specifically section 8.

"A physician shall designate her/his osteopathic school of practice in all professional uses of her/his name."

"The following are not considered proper on practice stationery or office signs:

• Dr. John Doe (this is considered improper even if the doctor signs his name John Doe, DO). The osteopathic identification should be printed.
  
  
• Dr. John Doe, Specialist in Osteopathic Medicine. The term specialist should be avoided in this circumstance."

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Pages/aoa-code-of-ethic-interpretation.aspx

I'm not a DO or member of the AOA so there's no reason for me "to be aware" or frankly really care about it's code, but don't you think that "rule" is a bit odd, perhaps even lacking in confidence that the degrees are equal?

When she first started in practice an older DO "warned" her about the stigma and ever since, she's been paranoid about it despite the fact that she has the highest patient volume of any subspecialty breast surgeon in our city (which is a very large one at that). But it's her choice even though I think it's unnecessary (and the AOA appears to frown upon it as well),

 

[Winged Scapula]

Does she have trouble filling her panel? I like how you added that second part in there when the issue is of someone's inadequacy in self confidence and nothing to do with the greater good.

I personally don't put that I'm in DO school on my Facebook but it's mainly because I feel utterly embarrassed for the people that post pretentious med school related nonsense all over it and would prefer not to be a hypocrite.

She has the highest volume of any breast surgeon in our town (if that's what you mean by "filling her panel") and is phenomenally successful.

Of course it has to do with self confidence and inadequacy. I'm not sure why you think I implied otherwise; if I thought she was unqualified or poorly educated, I wouldn't be in practice with her. IMHO she has no reason to feel this way which is why I feel it's ridiculous.

As far as patients refusing to see her because of the DO degree, they're just uneducated and ignorant.

 

[Psai]

A lot of self righteous justification going on up in here.

 

[OCDEMS]

I'm not a DO or member of the AOA so there's no reason for me "to be aware" or frankly really care about it's code, but don't you think that "rule" is a bit odd, perhaps even lacking in confidence that the degrees are equal?

When she first started in practice an older DO "warned" her about the stigma and ever since, she's been paranoid about it despite the fact that she has the highest patient volume of any subspecialty breast surgeon in our city (which is a very large one at that). But it's her choice even though I think it's unnecessary (and the AOA appears to frown upon it as well),

I'm not sure what to think. I think the AOA probably adopted that language to avoid people claiming that their members are not being transparent. CYA, nothing more. I shared because I've heard of medical societies, especially in DO heavy states, providing friendly reminders about truth in advertising. I provided the information more as a courtesy. Maybe work it into casual conversation next time you order business cards? Personally, I'd be more concerned with someone reporting me to be a dick and less concerned with the few patients who wouldn't want to see me because of a DO degree, but that's just me.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm not sure what to think. I think the AOA probably adopted that language to avoid people claiming that their members are not being transparent. CYA, nothing more. I shared because I've heard of medical societies, especially in DO heavy states, providing friendly reminders about truth in advertising. I provided the information more as a courtesy. Maybe work it into casual conversation next time you order business cards? Personally, I'd be more concerned with someone reporting me to be a dick and less concerned with the few patients who wouldn't want to see me because of a DO degree, but that's just me.

I've discussed it with her before specifically because I felt the title "Dr" was vague given the widespread use of it these days ( but that's a discussion for another thread LOL).

She prefers it to be left the way it is but I'm hoping our new, recent grad DO surgeon in the practice will convince her that she should change and there's no reason to hide. But it's her choice and I only want what she thinks is best for her.

She's the primary breadwinner for her family and despite terrific success, I often see this Chicken Little attitude as if tomorrow it will all go away. She's always asking me if I think surgeon X in town is busy or if I still get referrals from Doctor Y and I have her review spreadsheets. Still making great $$? Yep. Ok then CTFD.

But I'm with you about the patients; the ones that bother me are the ones who won't see her because she's a WOC. Hard to change that sickening bias.

 

[Silent Cool]

There are too many lawyers because of DO schools.

Well played.

(Over) supply, meet demand.

 

[Silent Cool]

Well, I know you're typing. Can't wait to see why I'm an idiot. I had you in mind when I wrote that Like a moth to a light.

For the record, I personally don't see primary care ever being great money. My overarching point was that, if you're going to do primary care, the DO pathway is the way to go. I think a lot of people really don't realize how well these guys/gals are making in manipulation practices, even if it is a small boost in overall compensation.

Would you kindly post some income statistics or some of your personal anecdotes?

thanx

 

[Silent Cool]

You're right. Doing OMT on a newborn infant is perfectly normal. Carry on.

I was reading dentaltown once and one of the dentists related his experience with an OB/GYN DO. Apparently, as soon as the baby came out of the womb the doc started manipiulating the spine and popping all kinds of stuff. The dentist said something like, "I thought, what the heck are you doing? I feared for my baby."

LOL

 

[Silent Cool]

Or my favorite: "Plus, practicing OMT as a family practice physician instantly makes you a proceduralist".

Yes, he is doing OMT on a newborn.

https://metrohealth.net/_files/u1/OMT-Newborn.pdf

The nonsense never ends. I wonder what those babies were thinking, "WTF is going on?!?"

Maybe they were summoning the great healing powers of A.T. Still to prevent disease in these babies for the duration of their lives.

 

[OCDEMS]

Would you kindly post some income statistics or some of your personal anecdotes?

thanx

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

 

[Apprands31]

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

Not trying to be a wise ass, but how many FP DOs actually do OMT?

 

[OCDEMS]

Not trying to be a wise ass, but how many FP DOs actually do OMT?

I don't know. I know the axiom is that if you're going to go into family practice or sports medicine that you'd be dumb not to learn it well. It's an unwritten rule that it's both sought after by patients and can increase your income. The great thing is that because it's taught in school, there really is no reason to specialize in it. Any DO can do it, although the AOA does have a specialty college for "neuromuscular medicine" where people do a 1-year fellowship to get Jedi-like good at it. They're supposedly competitive (yeah, I know). The truly good OMT practitioners are, if nothing else, sort of amazing to watch. They're fast and provide good affect on target, which is a problem for the uninitiated (students).

I also know some OMT-practicing DOs do well in the pain arena: complicated patients who are intractable to traditional treatments. Placebo or not, apparently they have a good success rate in getting people to accept their pain and work through it. Patients come in a few times a month for manipulation, plus OMT focuses on self-treatment and "empowerment. " Patients eat that stuff up and most docs will tell you they’re able to get them off stronger meds, so long as there isn’t preexisting dependence and a desire to change.

If you live in a DO heavy area, it's like an alternate universe. I grew up in an area with a decent saturation, but nothing like what I've seen where I'm at now. They honestly equal or outnumber the MDs. People in the area are hyper-aware of their existence and seek them out for all the marketing mantra we hear on here all the time.

 

[Silent Cool]

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

I'm not seeing any numbers here.

 

[Psai]

This is a thread about if there are too many medical schools, not for advertising about the wonders of osteopathic manipulations

 

[OCDEMS]

This is a thread about if there are too many medical schools, not for advertising about the wonders of osteopathic manipulations

 

[NontradCA]

She has the highest volume of any breast surgeon in our town (if that's what you mean by "filling her panel") and is phenomenally successful.

Of course it has to do with self confidence and inadequacy. I'm not sure why you think I implied otherwise; if I thought she was unqualified or poorly educated, I wouldn't be in practice with her. IMHO she has no reason to feel this way which is why I feel it's ridiculous.

As far as patients refusing to see her because of the DO degree, they're just uneducated and ignorant.

Thanks for clarifying. You were replying to the usual SDN rhetoric about pedigree etc, so I'm not sure what you were implying. It's brought up here as if it were a negative to the DOs providing care. It's the patients problem, and one of having an uneducated public. Were not selling kitchen knives.

I'd rather help people that want my help. And it's easy to do that as a physician. Take OMT for example. The population going in for those treatments are some of the most compliant and appreciative I've ever seen. Whether it's the most beneficial thing for a patient is another story. It is what it is.

 

[DrEnderW]

This is a thread about if there are too many medical schools, not for advertising about the wonders of osteopathic manipulations

I think you meant to say it's suppose to be about how there are too many medical schools, not for making fun of fringe OMM practices 99% of DOs don't support.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for clarifying. You were replying to the usual SDN rhetoric about pedigree etc, so I'm not sure what you were implying. It's brought up here as if it were a negative to the DOs providing care. It's the patients problem, and one of having an uneducated public. Were not selling kitchen knives.

I'd rather help people that want my help. And it's easy to do that as a physician. Take OMT for example. The population going in for those treatments are some of the most compliant and appreciative I've ever seen. Whether it's the most beneficial thing for a patient is another story. It is what it is.

Sorry for the confusion about my intent.

I was responding to a post that said they knew of a Harvard undergrad trained DO who specifically didn't mention where he obtained his medical degree or residency; I was (attempting) to say that I too had seen firsthand that sort of thing when I didn't think it was necessary. I wasn't attempting to derogate the degree, the training or it's practitioners except to say that why is it, with 2 partners who are osteopaths, a personal physician who is one, and several close friends, that I can't get anyone to perform OMT on my sore neck? Y'all are apparently even doing it to newborns and my pleas are ignored!!!

 

[PL198]

Holding my breath for the "evidence behind OMT" because I can assure you there is tons against it. happy to pull that up if you doubt it. I believe there was a cochrane review done pretty recently on this very issue.

 

[Wordead]

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

Seems ethical.

 

[DrEnderW]

Holding my breath for the "evidence behind OMT" because I can assure you there is tons against it. happy to pull that up if you doubt it. I believe there was a cochrane review done pretty recently on this very issue.

Dude, we get it. You can stop now. I get it, you get it, the DO posting on here gets it, and premedOMG69 in pre-osteo gets it. There's not enough OMT research and the JAOA has an IF of 0. No one needs to hear it again or have you google studies.

Let it go. There's a lot in medicine that doesn't have the research to back it and it is something that needs to be worked on. OMT is one of those things.

 

[PL198]

Dude, we get it. You can stop now. I get it, you get it, the DO posting on here gets it, and premedOMG69 in pre-osteo gets it. There's not enough OMT research and the JAOA has an IF of 0. No one needs to hear it again or have you google studies.

Let it go. There's a lot in medicine that doesn't have the research to back it and it is something that needs to be worked on. OMT is one of those things.

I mean it was specifically stated in this thread that there is research to back it up, so what is that? Do you read what this dude is pimping? He's literally talking about finding ways to work it in, so he can bill it. Are you joking me? I'm not big on calling people out for ethical stuff, but that's a f*cking joke.

 

[Baller MD]

Dude, we get it. You can stop now. I get it, you get it, the DO posting on here gets it, and premedOMG69 in pre-osteo gets it. There's not enough OMT research and the JAOA has an IF of 0. No one needs to hear it again or have you google studies.

Let it go. There's a lot in medicine that doesn't have the research to back it and it is something that needs to be worked on. OMT is one of those things.

Yeah... Just like chiropractic "medicine" and how it can cure cancer, according to some of its practitioners.

 

[Baller MD]

double post nvm

 

[OCDEMS]

I mean it was specifically stated in this thread that there is research to back it up, so what is that? Do you read what this dude is pimping? He's literally talking about finding ways to work it in, so he can bill it. Are you joking me? I'm not big on calling people out for ethical stuff, but that's a f*cking joke.

First, I never said that I, personally, was "finding ways to work it in." I was specifically addressing a question about how osteopathic medicine results in an incidental increase in income for those who practice OMT. I would never personally prescribe a treatment for financial gain. No one practicing OMT is hurting anyone, so long as they simultaneously investigate traditional and widely accepted medical treatments. It's an adjunct.

If you're going to call DOs out for working OMT into their practice, then you better line up to bash ophthalmologist who use Lucentis over Avantis in macular degeneration, because that's a lot more expensive than the local DO cracking some backs and charging for it.

 

[Apprands31]

How are DOs doing OMT any different from Dr Oz?

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

I don't know. I know the axiom is that if you're going to go into family practice or sports medicine that you'd be dumb not to learn it well. It's an unwritten rule that it's both sought after by patients and can increase your income. The great thing is that because it's taught in school, there really is no reason to specialize in it. Any DO can do it, although the AOA does have a specialty college for "neuromuscular medicine" where people do a 1-year fellowship to get Jedi-like good at it. They're supposedly competitive (yeah, I know). The truly good OMT practitioners are, if nothing else, sort of amazing to watch. They're fast and provide good affect on target, which is a problem for the uninitiated (students).

I also know some OMT-practicing DOs do well in the pain arena: complicated patients who are intractable to traditional treatments. Placebo or not, apparently they have a good success rate in getting people to accept their pain and work through it. Patients come in a few times a month for manipulation, plus OMT focuses on self-treatment and "empowerment. " Patients eat that stuff up and most docs will tell you they’re able to get them off stronger meds, so long as there isn’t preexisting dependence and a desire to change.

If you live in a DO heavy area, it's like an alternate universe. I grew up in an area with a decent saturation, but nothing like what I've seen where I'm at now. They honestly equal or outnumber the MDs. People in the area are hyper-aware of their existence and seek them out for all the marketing mantra we hear on here all the time.

View attachment 184655

I think you meant to say it's suppose to be about how there are too many medical schools, not for making fun of fringe OMM practices 99% of DOs don't support.

Dude, we get it. You can stop now. I get it, you get it, the DO posting on here gets it, and premedOMG69 in pre-osteo gets it. There's not enough OMT research and the JAOA has an IF of 0. No one needs to hear it again or have you google studies.

Let it go. There's a lot in medicine that doesn't have the research to back it and it is something that needs to be worked on. OMT is one of those things.

Yeah... Just like chiropractic "medicine" and how it can cure cancer, according to some of its practitioners.

 

[Baller MD]

How are DOs doing OMT any different from Dr Oz?

LOL. It's not. What Dr. Oz does supporting herbal supplements to lose weight is wrong.

 

[OCDEMS]

How are DOs doing OMT any different from Dr Oz?

He makes way more money than any good intentioned DO would ever make? Listen, OMT practicing DOs are not out trying defraud anyone. They believe there is actual medical benefit to what they do. Maybe you can speak for Dr. Oz since he's an MD?

 

[PL198]

First, I never said that I, personally, was "finding ways to work it in." I was specifically addressing a question about how osteopathic medicine results in an incidental increase in income for those who practice OMT. I would never personally prescribe a treatment for financial gain. No one practicing OMT is hurting anyone, so long as they simultaneously investigate traditional and widely accepted medical treatments. It's an adjunct.

If you're going to call DOs out for working OMT into their practice, then you better line up to bash ophthalmologist who use Lucentis over Avantis in macular degeneration, because that's a lot more expensive than the local DO cracking some backs and charging for it.

What? It doesn't have to directly hurt somebody to be wrong. Just because it doesn't hurt people(which makes sense, since it does nothing) doesn't mean it's ok? Why would you do something just to do it.... They're definitely hurting someone if a procedure can't possibly do anything for someone's health yet costs money/time for the patient.

 

[PL198]

He makes way more money than any good intentioned DO would ever make? Listen, OMT practicing DOs are not out trying defraud anyone. They believe there is actual medical benefit to what they do. Maybe you can speak for Dr. Oz since he's an MD?

I don't care what they believe. They're wrong, as shown by lots of research. Funny how I can believe that walking into a bank and stealing all their money is acceptable, yet if I did that, I'd end up in jail.

 

[OCDEMS]

What? It doesn't have to directly hurt somebody to be wrong. Just because it doesn't hurt people(which makes sense, since it does nothing) doesn't mean it's ok? Why would you do something just to do it.... They're definitely hurting someone if a procedure can't possibly do anything for someone's health yet costs money/time for the patient.

DOs who practice OMT believe it provides actual medical benefit. I have my own opinions. Like I said, it wouldn't be reimbursed if some people of authority didn't think it some marginal benefit, even if it is psychological, to patients with specific types of complaints. I'm aware of the research, which forms some of my own opinions. My point is that for every person like me there are others who believe it works based on personal experience, etc.

 

[Baller MD]

DOs who practice OMT believe it provides actual medical benefit. I have my own opinions. Like I said, it wouldn't be reimbursed if some people of authority didn't think it some marginal benefit, even if it is psychological, to patients with specific types of complaints. I'm aware of the research, which forms some of my own opinions. My point is that for every person like me there are others who believe it works based on personal experience, etc.

Being reimbursed by an authority doesn't mean squat. Chiropractors routinely get reimbursed for practices that show absolutely no benefit. I'm sure their lobbying group does a good job at changing the opinions of policy makers who don't know anything about real medicine.

 

[Apprands31]

I' m beginning to think that DOs who do OMT are unethical

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Does she have trouble filling her panel? I like how you added that second part in there when the issue is of someone's inadequacy in self confidence and nothing to do with the greater good.

I personally don't put that I'm in DO school on my Facebook but it's mainly because I feel utterly embarrassed for the people that post pretentious med school related nonsense all over it and would prefer not to be a hypocrite.

Right cause putting down where you're currently getting your education on facebook/linkedin/whatever is "pretentious med school related nonsense"...no need to be embarrassed about your DO shame

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I'll answer this seriously. First, I know of one DO in our city that practices an OMT-only practice, despite remaining boarded in Family Medicine. The word on the street is that he makes a killing in a mostly cash practice. I think people really underestimate the market for the stuff.

Second, I've had several DOs tell me that the trick to osteopathic family practice is learning to be proficient in OMT and working it into the treatment plan, especially for anything musculoskeletal. I think Medicare reimburses up to so many techniques/covered body systems. Each body system has a unique ICD-9 code for billing purposes.

Good example: there is OMT for inner-ear infections. Imagine how many of those are seen in a week at the average family practice and then extrapolate that out on every patient. Think about it. Imagine how many people mention "back pain" during a routine history. A second year DO student could crank out 2 manipulations in a matter of 1-2 minutes. The trick to OMT is knowing when to perform them and being able to justify it in documentation. You can't just start tugging and pulling on body parts and expect to bill for it.

Oh so you're saying do bullsh*t stuff for people (OMT for inner ear infections? Are you serious right now?) and scam them/Medicare out of money.

Thanks Mr. Chiropractor, if I wanted to be a scam artist for a living I'd go run a used car dealership.

 

[PL198]

DOs who practice OMT believe it provides actual medical benefit. I have my own opinions. Like I said, it wouldn't be reimbursed if some people of authority didn't think it some marginal benefit, even if it is psychological, to patients with specific types of complaints. I'm aware of the research, which forms some of my own opinions. My point is that for every person like me there are others who believe it works based on personal experience, etc.

I'll repeat what I already said. I don't care what they believe. I can believe in Santa Claus, but that doesn't mean a fat man in a red suit is squeezing his *ss into my chimney every year. And previous comments about chiros address your " it must work cuz people pay for it" logic.

It's just funny you're here supporting DO and then you say stuff like " multiple physicians have told me they actively try to scam patients out of money." that's paraphrasing but regardless, way to make our case for us.

 

[OCDEMS]

I'll repeat what I already said. I don't care what they believe. I can believe in Santa Claus, but that doesn't mean a fat man in a red suit is squeezing his *ss into my chimney every year. And previous comments about chiros address your " it must work cuz people pay for it" logic.

It's just funny you're here supporting DO and then you say stuff like " multiple physicians have told me they actively try to scam patients out of money." that's paraphrasing but regardless, way to make our case for us.

I think you should devote your life to getting rid of all these terrible people

 

[NontradCA]

Right cause putting down where you're currently getting your education on facebook/linkedin/whatever is "pretentious med school related nonsense"...no need to be embarrassed about your DO shame

So weak.

 

[Baller MD]

nvm

 

[drbillybob]

I mean it was specifically stated in this thread that there is research to back it up, so what is that? Do you read what this dude is pimping? He's literally talking about finding ways to work it in, so he can bill it. Are you joking me? I'm not big on calling people out for ethical stuff, but that's a f*cking joke.

Wow this thread is toxic.

However, for anyone else browsing through this I'd like to emphasize what has come "from the horse's mouth" so to speak. DO students - our example being OCDEMS in post #172 - understand that the OMT practiced by many DO practitioners is:

1) Of dubious value to patients
2) Used to pad the bottom line of many practices by mixing it with standards of care that are actually efficacious ("adjunct")
3) Essentially a way of defrauding Medicare, or otherwise being compensated for treatment that is unnecessary.

Now obviously, many DO practitioners probably personally believe in the efficacy of OMT, but this begs the question of why we should accept it as a normal and ethical way of treating patients.