Will there ever be too many medical schools in the US?

[ThreadMaker]

We keep hearing about how the US is opening new medical schools to make up for the doctor shortage in america. Does anyone think that this may lead to a law school like situation where you have too many graduates but not enough jobs? I know it won't happen immediately but perhaps somewhere down the future.

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[theseeker4]

We keep hearing about how the US is opening new medical schools to make up for the doctor shortage in america. Does anyone think that this may lead to a law school like situation where you have too many graduates but not enough jobs? I know it won't happen immediately but perhaps somewhere down the future.

Very soon, unless the rate of seats being added slows or residency spots are added, there will be too many US med school grads for the number of residency slots. This is the biggest problem with adding seats....

The population is aging. Baby-boomers are getting older every day, which will mean a huge influx of patients that need treatment. Demand for physicians will not likely slow for quite a while, until the baby boomers start dying off in huge numbers (meaning not for decades) so barring a radical change in the number of residency slots training new doctors, it is unlikely that the market will become over-saturated with fully-trained physicians for quite a while. Having a large number of med school graduates that cannot get into residency programs, on the other hand, is a concern.......

 

[Kal EI]

Very soon, unless the rate of seats being added slows or residency spots are added, there will be too many US med school grads for the number of residency slots. This is the biggest problem with adding seats....

The population is aging. Baby-boomers are getting older every day, which will mean a huge influx of patients that need treatment. Demand for physicians will not likely slow for quite a while, until the baby boomers start dying off in huge numbers (meaning not for decades) so barring a radical change in the number of residency slots training new doctors, it is unlikely that the market will become over-saturated with fully-trained physicians for quite a while. Having a large number of med school graduates that cannot get into residency programs, on the other hand, is a concern.......

Maybe. Still lots of IMGs filling residency spots.

 

[med etudiant]

You can thank the DO schools for that. DO schools are popping up like McDonalds.

 

[pattr]

You can thank the DO schools for that. DO schools are popping up like McDonalds.

Since 1990, there have been 15 MD schools and 19 DO schools (some of which are branch campuses) established. Medical schools are "popping up" regardless of MD or DO. The relative amount of MD vs. DO schools/students is what's changing.

 

[Kal EI]

Since 1990, there have been 15 MD schools and 19 DO schools (some of which are branch campuses) established. Medical schools are "popping up" regardless of MD or DO. The relative amount of MD vs. DO schools/students is what's changing.

Since DO's are like 10% (?) of the physician population, that's substantial that they have 19 to 15. The ratio by population should be MD schools 15, DO schools 2 (19 is +17 or ten times over their population). Regardless, I thought I read that more DO schools are planning to open now than MDs. Again, with the percentage population of DOs, that would be "popping up" in my book.

 

[thefritz]

Very soon, unless the rate of seats being added slows or residency spots are added, there will be too many US med school grads for the number of residency slots. This is the biggest problem with adding seats....

Residency spots aren't fixed. New ones are added every year. Calm down, the sky's not falling. Also notice the historical sawtooth pattern of the number of applicants. Look at where we are now on that trend. Watch students migrate back to other fields when the economy picks back up in 5-10 years.

 

[Medstart108]

We keep hearing about how the US is opening new medical schools to make up for the doctor shortage in america. Does anyone think that this may lead to a law school like situation where you have too many graduates but not enough jobs? I know it won't happen immediately but perhaps somewhere down the future.

I say there are already too many medical schools in America. In particular too many DO schools, like the new Liberty University Osteopathic School of Medicine, when did the Caribbean move on shore?? The PNW could use a new medical school but thats about it.

 

[scorm]

OP, just make sure you got on American MD school firstly. Then try to get into the best school you can that you are comfortable attending. Once you do that, your board scores will do the rest for you.

 

[med etudiant]

I hope medicine isnt heading the same way that law is. Over-saturation.

 

[mdeast]

Maybe. Still lots of IMGs filling residency spots.

This. It really just means that "undesirable" spots (i.e. Family Med in rural Tennessee) are going to start going to US grads instead of IMGs.

P.S. Not trying to pick on TN.

 

[pattr]

I say there are already too many medical schools in America. In particular too many DO schools, like the new Liberty University Osteopathic School of Medicine, when did the Caribbean move on shore?? The PNW could use a new medical school but thats about it.

I really don't get why people are so focused on DO schools. The DO population is expanding... Is it necessarily WRONG that DO populations would make up >10% of the physician population in America or just a change from years prior? This is not just about DO schools; MD schools are increasing in number too... it's one thing to say there are 'too many medical schools' which is correct in that growth of medical schools is outpacing that of residency programs all under the context that there is a severe primary care physician shortage.

"When did the Caribbean move on shore?" is incredibly ignorant. In the same state there is an MD school being proposed by King University, a small private Christian university JUST like Liberty University: http://schoolofmedicine.king.edu/faqs/

Let's not forget medical education is a business too, and a huge one at that. People are willing to start schools in order to make money, regardless of what degree that school grants.

 

[thefritz]

I really don't get why people are so focused on DO schools. The DO population is expanding... Is it necessarily WRONG that DO populations would make up >10% of the physician population in America or just a change from years prior? This is not just about DO schools;

People are focused on DO schools because they are an enigma. They don't make any sense and people either don't know that there are two types of medical degrees or they don't understand why there are two types of medical degrees. People who defend DO schools say things like MDs and DOs practice in the exact same capacity. Well if they're the same, then why have two different bodies of medical education? I have never heard a single person say "I really want to learn OMM, so I'm only applying to DO schools," or "I'd really prefer an osteopathic residency." The only major difference I can find is that the AACOM doesn't outright ban for-profit schools.

 

[gravitywave]

People are focused on DO schools because they are an enigma. They don't make any sense and people either don't know that there are two types of medical degrees or they don't understand why there are two types of medical degrees. People who defend DO schools say things like MDs and DOs practice in the exact same capacity. Well if they're the same, then why have two different bodies of medical education? I have never heard a single person say "I really want to learn OMM, so I'm only applying to DO schools," or "I'd really prefer an osteopathic residency." The only major difference I can find is that the AACOM doesn't outright ban for-profit schools.

LCME doesn't ban for-profit schools either. They never expressly did, and earlier this year they removed the provision in the accreditation standards that expressed preference for non-profit parent institutions.

I agree that the sky isn't falling. The last projection I saw still had combined first-year enrollments of MD and DO in 2017 (students that would match in 2021) as being less than the number of combined MD and DO categorical residency slots we have now. Cuts to GME funding might cause problems too, but at least for the moment the concern isn't really that there won't be enough slots. It's that the assumption will break down that if you can graduate and pass the Steps, then you can find a residency position. I do feel there will be a small number of students going forward for whom this will no longer be true - a problem that was previously confined to international grads. Admission to a US medical school will no longer be a golden ticket to completing your training. Also, competitive residencies will become ever more competitive, but that was probably a reasonable assumption anyway.

 

[Medstart108]

I really don't get why people are so focused on DO schools. The DO population is expanding... Is it necessarily WRONG that DO populations would make up >10% of the physician population in America or just a change from years prior? This is not just about DO schools; MD schools are increasing in number too... it's one thing to say there are 'too many medical schools' which is correct in that growth of medical schools is outpacing that of residency programs all under the context that there is a severe primary care physician shortage.

"When did the Caribbean move on shore?" is incredibly ignorant. In the same state there is an MD school being proposed by King University, a small private Christian university JUST like Liberty University: http://schoolofmedicine.king.edu/faqs/

Let's not forget medical education is a business too, and a huge one at that. People are willing to start schools in order to make money, regardless of what degree that school grants.

Wow King University, oh you've made bad news even worse. Instead of expanding spots at existing schools they are opening new schools in the middle of nowhere at "i've never heard of that" universities.

Keep expanding and med school will be the new law school.

 

[med etudiant]

Wow King University, oh you've made bad news even worse. Instead of expanding spots at existing schools they are opening new schools in the middle of nowhere at "i've never heard of that" universities.

Keep expanding and med school will be the new law school.

That's where it's heading. University's know they can make big money off of medical schools and DO schools are easier to start..so that's the new trend. Before long there will be a surplus of Docs and we will be lucky to make 90 grand a year.

 

[thethethe]

People are focused on DO schools because they are an enigma. They don't make any sense and people either don't know that there are two types of medical degrees or they don't understand why there are two types of medical degrees. People who defend DO schools say things like MDs and DOs practice in the exact same capacity. Well if they're the same, then why have two different bodies of medical education? I have never heard a single person say "I really want to learn OMM, so I'm only applying to DO schools," or "I'd really prefer an osteopathic residency." The only major difference I can find is that the AACOM doesn't outright ban for-profit schools.

yes we do have two different bodies of medical education, but what about the students that decide to take the USMLE and score above 250+? would you consider them equal? they beat 80% of the MD students taking that exam

 

[thefritz]

yes we do have two different bodies of medical education, but what about the students that decide to take the USMLE and score above 250+? would you consider them equal? they beat 80% of the MD students taking that exam

I didn't realize that DO schools educate better and that their students are smarter. Hmm... if maybe there were a reason that DO students who take the USMLE prepare for high scores.., but no I guess they aren't preparing any differently and that lower GPA and MCAT thing must be a coincidence. Thanks for clearing that up..

Premeds, read this! Go to a DO school and outscore your MD friends on the USMLE.

 

[thethethe]

I didn't realize that DO schools educate better and that their students are smarter. Hmm... if maybe there were a reason that DO students who take the USMLE prepare for high scores.., but no I guess they aren't preparing any differently and that lower GPA and MCAT thing must be a coincidence. Thanks for clearing that up..

Premeds, read this! Go to a DO school and outscore your MD friends on the USMLE.

 

[Imnoglbln]

Yes soon we will all eat Ramen 5x a week and spike it up with an egg 2 x a week.

 

[BouncingBack]

You can thank the DO schools for that. DO schools are popping up like McDonalds.

Southern California College of Osteopathic Medicine and Liberty U, BABY!

 

[Microshaft]

Why are people even scared about that
A more likely scenario is America becomes too damn broke to hire people for healthcare

 

[notbobtrustme]

Very soon, unless the rate of seats being added slows or residency spots are added, there will be too many US med school grads for the number of residency slots. This is the biggest problem with adding seats....

yea, but that's only if you count DO graduates. As far as MD residencies go, they will increase in competitiveness only slightly (owing to increased class sizes and new schools). Do you really think graduates from Liberty University SOM will be on par with any MD graduates? New DO grads are going to eat up the **** programs that IMGs used to fight over.

 

[IJL]

yea, but that's only if you count DO graduates. As far as MD residencies go, they will increase in competitiveness only slightly (owing to increased class sizes and new schools). Do you really think graduates from Liberty University SOM will be on par with any MD graduates? New DO grads are going to eat up the **** programs that IMGs used to fight over.

This. I would only be worried if I were a DO student. IMGs are SOL.

 

[ams81]

So from what I understand..there is a huge shortage of physicians..well lets be clear, there is a huger shortage of primary care physicians.

They are infact increasing medical school class sizes and even opening new schools. And yes DOs popping up all over the place. oh and FYI MDs should be able to apply to DO programs starting next year. But does that mean it will help fill the shortage of primary care??

Most AMGs will shoot for a specialty mainly because of the lifestyle and compensation. Which has left the door wide open for IMGs.

So I guess when they close this gap of spots that go to IMGs by increasing the number graduates, the specialties will become more competitive and it will force AMGs to take primary care spots.

I dont think Med school will be the new Law school, because health care will always be in demand, and the goverment is looking to cut GME funding as much as possible. They could have increased the number of graduates a long time ago to fill the spots that are left over after all if not most AMGs take a spot...but I feel that they did not increase the number of residencies because they want to make sure that we have job security. - just my opinion here...worst case scenario...if they do overflood the market, our salaries will go down drastically.

 

[Amazingmuzmo]

So from what I understand..there is a huge shortage of physicians..well lets be clear, there is a huger shortage of primary care physicians.

They are infact increasing medical school class sizes and even opening new schools. And yes DOs popping up all over the place. oh and FYI MDs should be able to apply to DO programs starting next year. But does that mean it will help fill the shortage of primary care??

Most AMGs will shoot for a specialty mainly because of the lifestyle and compensation. Which has left the door wide open for IMGs.

So I guess when they close this gap of spots that go to IMGs by increasing the number graduates, the specialties will become more competitive and it will force AMGs to take primary care spots.

I dont think Med school will be the new Law school, because health care will always be in demand, and the goverment is looking to cut GME funding as much as possible. They could have increased the number of graduates a long time ago to fill the spots that are left over after all if not most AMGs take a spot...but I feel that they did not increase the number of residencies because they want to make sure that we have job security. - just my opinion here...worst case scenario...if they do overflood the market, our salaries will go down drastically.

Smartest thing posted in this thread

 

[Cranial ALLDAY]

there already are too many and the whackjobs at the AOA as already mentioned are not helping it one bit. I wanted to strangle the admin at my school when I heard the incoming CLASS was is 270 this year. Greedy pos that only cares about their wallet.

 

[Dires]

there already are too many and the whackjobs at the AOA as already mentioned are not helping it one bit. I wanted to strangle the admin at my school when I heard the incoming CLASS was is 270 this year. Greedy pos that only cares about their wallet.

That's a large class.

Just playing devils advocate here, but I think MD class sizes are expanding as well.

No doubt it will be interesting to see the impact of this expansion down the road. More than ever I would be a skeptic of the "just go to the cheapest school" statement for current pre-meds interested in competitive fields.

 

[budda10000]

People are focused on DO schools because they are an enigma. They don't make any sense and people either don't know that there are two types of medical degrees or they don't understand why there are two types of medical degrees. People who defend DO schools say things like MDs and DOs practice in the exact same capacity. Well if they're the same, then why have two different bodies of medical education? I have never heard a single person say "I really want to learn OMM, so I'm only applying to DO schools," or "I'd really prefer an osteopathic residency." The only major difference I can find is that the AACOM doesn't outright ban for-profit schools.

There shouldn't be and its more a function of politics(of the old guard) than function. On the MD side the second tier status of DO's hasn't helped bring the two together, on the DO side the old guards obsession with "distinctiveness" has prevented a merger. The two should be one and your residency placement should be entirely a function of your board scores, class rank, interview and EC's. I really do not understand why an MD PD would screen out a DO with an insanely high Step 1/2 just because of degree and on the flip side I do not get why OMM practitioners are so hostile to testing/shedding techniques that may not work.

 

[username456789]

I really do not understand why an MD PD would screen out a DO with an insanely high Step 1/2 just because of degree

You're somehow presuming that, on average, the clinical educational experience at a DO school is equivalent to an MD school. That is often not the case, and serves as at least one reason why that type of decision making occurs.

 

[DermViser]

There shouldn't be and its more a function of politics(of the old guard) than function. On the MD side the second tier status of DO's hasn't helped bring the two together, on the DO side the old guards obsession with "distinctiveness" has prevented a merger. The two should be one and your residency placement should be entirely a function of your board scores, class rank, interview and EC's. I really do not understand why an MD PD would screen out a DO with an insanely high Step 1/2 just because of degree and on the flip side I do not get why OMM practitioners are so hostile to testing/shedding techniques that may not work.

Do you actually believe your entire quality of your med school education can be whittled down to a USMLE Step 1/2 score? Really?

 

[budda10000]

Do you actually believe your entire quality of your med school education can be whittled down to a USMLE Step 1/2 score? Really?

No of course not but it is a strong indicator, better than what school you went to.

 

[Psai]

No of course not but it is a strong indicator, better than what school you went to.

No it's not, many people can do well if they spend a ton of time studying. When you have US MDs studying for 6 weeks while you have Caribbean students studying for 6 months, the scores can't be compared 1:1. The school you went to is a strong indicator because it gives you a good idea of past performance. You won't see the valedictorian of Harvard going to St. George University

 

[DermViser]

No of course not but it is a strong indicator, better than what school you went to.

No, it isn't a strong indicator. Your med school is a strong indicator as to the quality of your education esp. the quality of the MS-3 clerkships and the institutions they're done at. If what you say were true, SGU would be high in quality.

 

[Hemorrage]

Since 1990, there have been 15 MD schools and 19 DO schools (some of which are branch campuses) established. Medical schools are "popping up" regardless of MD or DO. The relative amount of MD vs. DO schools/students is what's changing.

I think the reason why people feel this way is because MD schools take longer to establish due to the fact that the LCME's standards are stricter and inevitably more expensive.. the rate of MD expansion has been slow but steady. The COCA on the other hand has more lenient rules (and therefore less expensive) so even for-profit DO schools have been popping up. IMO, i think the rise of absolutely ridiculous DO schools like Rocky Vista are only degrading the Osteopathic mission

 

[PL198]

I think that everyone just gets butthurt about DO being inferior. I'm sorry it is. I don't understand why that's so hard to admit. What do people do when they can't get into MD schools? They get into DO ones. DO physicians don't even practice DO medicine like they're taught to. DOs will knock out IMGs and then eventually DOs will be knocked out as well.

 

[Psai]

I think that everyone just gets butthurt about DO being inferior. I'm sorry it is. I don't understand why that's so hard to admit. What do people do when they can't get into MD schools? They get into DO ones. DO physicians don't even practice DO medicine like they're taught to. DOs will knock out IMGs and then eventually DOs will be knocked out as well.

They really do. A lot of the time, IMGs and DOs won't even say what school they went to

 

[FutureOncologist]

Medical schools are also adding the amount of seats that they have each year. My medical school 4 years ago only let in 110 people. This incoming M1 class has 165 people.

 

[PL198]

They really do. A lot of the time, IMGs and DOs won't even say what school they went to

Really do what ?

 

[Psai]

Really do what ?

have hurt feelings

 

[DermViser]

Medical schools are also adding the amount of seats that they have each year. My medical school 4 years ago only let in 110 people. This incoming M1 class has 165 people.

That is ridiculous and irresponsible.

 

[jakeislove]

They really do. A lot of the time, IMGs and DOs won't even say what school they went to

I've never once seen this, LOL!

Simply out of curiosity: Do people ever ask American students "How many schools did you apply to?" or other equally silly questions designed to make themselves feel superior?

 

[DrEnderW]

DOs won't even say what school they went to

Like you'd directly ask someone and they'd not answer??

That's seems like more of a weird person than anything.

 

[DermViser]

I've never once seen this, LOL!

You're a Carribean med student aren't you?

 

[jakeislove]

You're a Carribean med student aren't you?

That is well known.

I've rotated with US MD/DO students. I can really only remember one or two times someone had a chip on their shoulder. To be brutally honest, I've encountered waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy more attitude from Caribbean students.

 

[Psai]

They'd dodge the question or tell me their undergrad. I'm just curious about where they're from and stuff

 

[Hemorrage]

They'd dodge the question or tell me their undergrad. I'm just curious about where they're from and stuff

Although anecdotal, I have seen this too unfortunately. I know someone who went to an Ivy League and then to a DO school and won't even list the DO school on their Facebook. Yet they have their residency hospital listed so it's not like they "forgot".

 

[PL198]

have hurt feelings

I mean they should in a way. Like I don't go to a good medical school ranking wise, yet I'm not gonna hide that. I'm also very upfront about this. I see no reason they can't say it's inferior to MD. It's like saying arena football isn't similar to the NFL. The only reason anyone ever goes to arena football is they can't make it in the NFL.

 

[DrEnderW]

I'm just curious about where they're from and stuff

Oh yeah I completely agree, it's a totally innocent question.

 

[DermViser]

That is well known.

I've rotated with US MD/DO students. I can really only remember one or two times someone had a chip on their shoulder. To be brutally honest, I've encountered waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy more attitude from Caribbean students.

The ones who I knew (n=1, I know) were Caribbean grads were essentially people whose parents (both physicians) could easily write them a check to pay for med school, so it wasn't surprising they didn't really care much. They always seemed to have a chip on the shoulder, but I don't know if it's bc they get sick of people asking where they go to school or the Caribbean really puts them thru the ringer with the weeding out process. Made things quite uncomfortable to talk without feeling like you were going to say something that might offend them.